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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Get rid of Legendary/lair actions, make a number of legendary creatures equal to the party size and share the original HP out among them? "There are four red dragons with 1/4 HP" works basically the same as one red dragon. They share their recharge powers, etc. So they don't get to pour fire out constantly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    Eureka! This is what we need to do then. Roll initiative for every weapon.

    It's your turn Left Claw!
    I almost seriously proposed this earlier in the thread, then thought better of it because it'd just bog battles down. But...then, really, what's the difference between that and having 5 creatures, one with a big bite and four with claw-like clubs or spears? So it could be done.

    What legendary actions do is add a few bursts of extra activity, and/or some defenses that make the monster tougher. They really don't violate any in-universe rules; if anything, the only thing they mess with is (2) on the game-level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    You are aware that real-world battles of one-v-many have a sort-of bottleneck effect, too, and that there are tactics for this that make it look like the one gets to act more often than the many due to openings and lack thereof, right?

    When it's a huge monster vs. normal sized guys, it's even more realistic. Heck, dragons have all those different attacks; rolling them on their own initiatives would make it "look" more like it does in Teen Titans and other shows.
    1) Real world choke points are similar to in game choke points. In those cases the PCs are fast enough to act more but there is not room to act more.

    2) It depends on what "initiative" means in your mind. Having a create act on multiple initiatives could feel like "Its brain is so fast it gets extra turns" rather than your idea of "Its action, bonus action, and object interaction are so impressive we will split it across 3 initiative counts".

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    No, it's not. Dragons can attack or burn whatever they please, no PCs required.
    Name for me a legendary action that somehow doesn't exist before init is rolled. Legendary saves? No saving throw does. Or, if it does, the dragon can use his LEgendary Saves on them. Extra attack actions? They can make attacks against anything they want; the fact they may have to roll init doesn't magically make it invalid.

    I think you will need to spell out an example of a Legendary Action to which you object on the grounds you're trying to object, and explain why, because I'm just not seeing it. I honestly don't understand your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    1) Real world choke points are similar to in game choke points. In those cases the PCs are fast enough to act more but there is not room to act more.

    2) It depends on what "initiative" means in your mind. Having a create act on multiple initiatives could feel like "Its brain is so fast it gets extra turns" rather than your idea of "Its action, bonus action, and object interaction are so impressive we will split it across 3 initiative counts".
    In 5e, it would be clumsy, because splitting claw/claw/bite makes far less sense than it might have in 3e or especially 2e. That's why they just give them a couple extra attacks to throw around and call them "legendary."

    Still doesn't change that they make perfect sense in-universe. The dragon's attacking. Of course it is; you're fighting it. It has a lot of limbs to flail about with. And more of its actions during that six-second period resulted in potentially telling blows.



    As to Talekeal's players' dislike of them, I think the question to ask regarding asymmetry is: what do they expect to be able to do?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    As to Talekeal's players' dislike of them, I think the question to ask regarding asymmetry is: what do they expect to be able to do?
    That was the roundabout point of my post: here is an example of someone who doesn't like them, and their reasons why. Now, players, you don't like them - can you explain your reasons?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-05-16 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Personally, I like the idea of legendary and lair actions BECAUSE it makes the enemies different than the players.

    Really, in addition to allowing you the single enemy, many PC encounters that 3e/P pretty much rendered ineffective, what it does it make the combat round more responsive and more narrative.

    It allows you to narrate and direct action between player's turns to make the combat more interesting, more varied and (yes) more competitive.

    In 3e/P where you have to ahve multiple enemies to challenge the PCs your round looked either like

    Player
    Player
    Enemy
    Player
    Enemy
    Enemy
    Player
    Enemy

    or (with one init for the enemies.)

    Player
    Player
    Enemy
    Enemy
    Enemy
    Enemy
    Enemy
    Player
    Player

    With legendary and lair actions it STILL looks like

    Player
    Enemy (legendary)
    Player
    Enemy (legndary)
    Player
    Player
    Enemy
    Player
    Enemy (lair)

    Except now the enemies are 1 enemy and three lair/legendary actions instead of 4 enemies.

    The result is the same, but the narrative quality of the combat experience is better in some ways.
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Except now the enemies are 1 enemy and three lair/legendary actions instead of 4 enemies.

    The result is the same, but the narrative quality of the combat experience is better in some ways.
    The perception, which matters in the imagination, is what changes. It feels like playing an arcade fighting game and the enemy gets access to combos but you don't. Mortal Kombat was hard enough when the bosses would two shot kill you but without action economy you'd never stand a chance. So to make a similar list, here's what it feels like:

    Player: I cast Magic Missile at the dragon.
    DM: Okay, it hurts him. Now the dragon goes. He slaps you with two claws.
    Player: Ouch. Okay I--
    DM: Wait, not done. While you're bleeding he uppercuts you in the jaw, tech grabs you in midair, piledrives you into the ground, then executes a Taunt over your broken body that lowers all your stats by two.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    I think the idea of multiple initiative rolls works great for creatures with multiple heads. From the ettin to the hydra, all the way to Tiamat.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    The perception, which matters in the imagination, is what changes. It feels like playing an arcade fighting game and the enemy gets access to combos but you don't. Mortal Kombat was hard enough when the bosses would two shot kill you but without action economy you'd never stand a chance. So to make a similar list, here's what it feels like:

    Player: I cast Magic Missile at the dragon.
    DM: Okay, it hurts him. Now the dragon goes. He slaps you with two claws.
    Player: Ouch. Okay I--
    DM: Wait, not done. While you're bleeding he uppercuts you in the jaw, tech grabs you in midair, piledrives you into the ground, then executes a Taunt over your broken body that lowers all your stats by two.
    That is what happens without legendary actions. The dragon took his normal turn and used his multi attack option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    That is what happens without legendary actions. The dragon took his normal turn and used his multi attack option.
    Segev, at some point you will recognize that some see it differently than you do. Attempting to contradict them about their own experience is a bit counterproductive.

    1) Yes I can take a creature and make a mechanically equivalent one with / without legendary actions.
    2) However, Legendary Actions can feel like the creature gets extra turns. I attack, then the dragon attacks on turn 1, breathes on turn 2, casts a spell on turn 3, does the hokey pokey on turn 4, files their taxes on turns 5-6, performs an opera on turns 7-8, and only then do I get another turn. To some players (maybe Talakeal's players?) this is not appear as bad if the creature does all of these within 1 turns worth of actions. To other players (like segev for example) it would feel worse if it was on a single uninterruptible initiative.
    3) It would have really helped if Talakeal told us why their players don't like Legendary actions so we could talk about their concerns. It would obviously help Talakeal if they knew why their players don't like Legendary actions.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2019-05-17 at 10:35 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    Eureka! This is what we need to do then. Roll initiative for every weapon.

    It's your turn Left Claw!
    I’m all for a Power Ranger Megazoid made from several Animated Objects. The only issue is that you are kinda creating “called shots” in that a limb can be targeted and disabled (without houserules). I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to use Animated Armor, A Flying Sword, Animated Shield, and a Cape (rug) Of Smothering against my Party. Posing as a lone knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Name for me a legendary action that somehow doesn't exist before init is rolled.
    If I applied the Half-Dragon template to a Unicorn, would you say that the “Shimmering Shield” and “Heal Self” Legendary Actions are unique, and wording implies they don’t exist if there is not another creature around.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Segev, at some point you will recognize that some see it differently than you do. Attempting to contradict them about their own experience is a bit counterproductive.
    I don't think Segev, and I know I, am not trying to tell others "what their own experience" is. But what, at least, I am trying to point out is that the actual meat of the turn is the same as it ever was, so the problem is ONLY one of perception.

    To me, the gripe is based on a skewed perception. the player is used to the 3e experience where the enemy is build on the same chassis as the player. So they shift to 5e and now the enemy isn't built on the same chassis.

    However, for the same challenge, in 3e, the DM had to throw a horde of enemies at you, but now they can do the same challenge with one enemy.

    I guess I view the encounter as fighting "the challenge" not "the monster". In 3e, a single creature was never a challenge to a group of 4 people because they always got 4x the actions as the creature. in 5e, the made a conscious decision to alter that mechanic so that you could have a narrative encounter of a group fighting a single foe (a classic staple that, for some, was sorely missed)

    I had hoped that by pointing out that the single enemy with lair/legendary actions is actually completely equivalent to the four enemies you would've fought in 3e, it would adequately show why I feel the perception is skewed.

    However, it didn't work. *shrug* oh well. Different perceptions.

    Also, if the legendary/lair actions feel like how some posters are posting them, then I don't think they are being used right or responsibly. At no point should the DM do

    player
    Enemy
    enemy legendary
    enemy legendary
    enemy legendary
    player
    player
    player
    enemy lair

    While, as segev points out, that's just recreating the multi-attack 3e creature, it isn't how legendary are supposed to work (IMO). The legendary are supposed to act responsively to help break up the round and be seeded between players actions as responses and to change the "narrative" structure of the battle to keep it interesting. Not as a mortal-kombat style uninterruptable c-c-c-c0mbo.



    I actually DM 50% of the time and play 50% of the time, so maybe I have a different viewpoint because I'm used to designing encounters and the difficulty that goes into the DM side of the thing.

    I also believe, based on nothing but my own gut, that if the same player didn't think they were playing another brand of D&D, but a completely different game they probably wouldn't mind as much. Because they wouldn't have the weight of their preconceptions of what the experience should be weighing them down.

    But then, this is Talakeal's table and Talakeal's players and, frankly, if you haven't already read the numerous hilarious threads about this table, you can't possibly understand the extreme dysfunction he chooses to live with. Its seriously reads like a table of 3 year olds who are told to eat their carrots.
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    To me, the gripe is based on a skewed perception. the player is used to the 3e experience where the enemy is build on the same chassis as the player. So they shift to 5e and now the enemy isn't built on the same chassis.
    It's definitely one of perception but not due to the chassis. You're using game terminology to justify the scenario when the very issue is that it's so gamey. The perception break happens because in the imagination the creature is now acting out of turn when previously we were led to believe that the world (and physics) simply don't allow that. Breaking up multiple attacks across an initiative segment is one thing, it can be seen as iterative and you can do the same with Fighters who swing multiple times. That's a common thing in RPGs when your Speed is just that high. But Legendary actions feel so out of place in a roleplaying setting that they are deliberate attempts at balancing the GAME aspect of combat at the price of its own verisimilitude.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Not sure if anyone has said this yet, as I am only reading this thread casually, but I want to add something to Gallowglass' point.

    Monsters in 5e cannot actually use more than one legendary at a time, and it only can use one after another creature's turn. Doing anything like a combo is impossible with just them as written.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoboldi View Post
    Not sure if anyone has said this yet, as I am only reading this thread casually, but I want to add something to Gallowglass' point.

    Monsters in 5e cannot actually use more than one legendary at a time, and it only can use one after another creature's turn. Doing anything like a combo is impossible with just them as written.
    I'm sorry for not being clear enough but the issue isn't with the combos. The combination attack was merely the example of how it appears in the theater of the mind, like the enemy can do something that is physically impossible for you to replicate and not just because it's a dragon. The perception is the problem as it throws away the authenticity of the illusion being narrated in favor of pragmatic combat rules.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Segev, at some point you will recognize that some see it differently than you do. Attempting to contradict them about their own experience is a bit counterproductive.
    But I'm not telling them what their subjective experience is. I'm simply pointing out that they're looking at six donuts piled up on their plate and complaining that that's too many, and that they preferred the half-dozen they were offered last week.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    1) Yes I can take a creature and make a mechanically equivalent one with / without legendary actions.
    Actulaly slightly opposite to the point I was making in the post you quoted.

    In 3e (and earlier editions), the monster took all of his actions at once, with no chance between for the PCs to do anything. If I took a 3e monster and rolled init for each of his attacks in a full attack, for example, however, it would look a lot like the monster was "acting out of turn." In reality, he's acting much weaker, because he's essentially having many of his attacks hit more slowly.

    Now, as has been pointed out, Legendary Actions are expressly NOT supposed to work like that. So the events in the example I was responding to are really "the enemy takes his normal turn, getting to do these several things at once." Any Legendary actions are singular things happening between two PC turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    2) However, Legendary Actions can feel like the creature gets extra turns. I attack, then the dragon attacks on turn 1, breathes on turn 2, casts a spell on turn 3, does the hokey pokey on turn 4, files their taxes on turns 5-6, performs an opera on turns 7-8, and only then do I get another turn.
    Again, unless I got to act on turn 1.5, and then Talekeal got to act on turn 2.5, and Kyutaru got to act on turn 3.5, and the dragon only filed his taxes on turns 5-6 because that was actually his turn and he got to do all the things you get to do on your turn then, and then the opera was him using talking as a free action, the DM is not using legendary actions right.

    Also, having more than 3 legendary actions is highly rare, from what I've skimmed through the MM and seen.

    However, it CAN feel like he gets a turn after each PC turn, if there are 4 PCs:

    PC1 acts
    Enemy takes a legendary action
    PC2 acts
    Enemy takes a legendary action
    PC3 acts
    Enemy takes a legendary action
    PC4 acts
    Enemy finally gets his real turn.

    (You can swap any of the "legendary action" lines for the "enemy takes real turn" line, depending on init order.)

    But all this really is saying is that the monster has more actions, and can spread them around the round. May as well complain about a hydra having more attacks on his turn due to more heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    To some players (maybe Talakeal's players?) this is not appear as bad if the creature does all of these within 1 turns worth of actions. To other players (like segev for example) it would feel worse if it was on a single uninterruptible initiative.
    Talekeal's players may feel it's better if the monster takes his real turn with +3 extra actions, but it is objectively more to the PCs' advantage to have the monster not permitted to do so, and to have to take the extra three actions spread across the monsters' turns.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    3) It would have really helped if Talakeal told us why their players don't like Legendary actions so we could talk about their concerns. It would obviously help Talakeal if they knew why their players don't like Legendary actions.
    Definitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrKerosene View Post
    I’m all for a Power Ranger Megazoid made from several Animated Objects. The only issue is that you are kinda creating “called shots” in that a limb can be targeted and disabled (without houserules). I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to use Animated Armor, A Flying Sword, Animated Shield, and a Cape (rug) Of Smothering against my Party. Posing as a lone knight.
    Technically, it's no more or less "called shots" than having 5 monsters on the field, each with their own stats and actions. You're picking a target.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrKerosene View Post
    If I applied the Half-Dragon template to a Unicorn, would you say that the “Shimmering Shield” and “Heal Self” Legendary Actions are unique, and wording implies they don’t exist if there is not another creature around.
    I don't see how they fail to exist without other creatures. Both can be applied to the unicorn. It can do either of them once per round. A round is approximately 6 seconds, so that's how fast they refresh.

    What wording do you see that implies they don't exist without other creatures around? And what's the half-dragon template have to do with it? I am not sure I follow what you're getting at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    It's definitely one of perception but not due to the chassis. You're using game terminology to justify the scenario when the very issue is that it's so gamey. The perception break happens because in the imagination the creature is now acting out of turn when previously we were led to believe that the world (and physics) simply don't allow that. Breaking up multiple attacks across an initiative segment is one thing, it can be seen as iterative and you can do the same with Fighters who swing multiple times. That's a common thing in RPGs when your Speed is just that high. But Legendary actions feel so out of place in a roleplaying setting that they are deliberate attempts at balancing the GAME aspect of combat at the price of its own verisimilitude.
    That's very odd to me.

    I find the idea that everyone acts in discrete turns to be extremely gamist and immersion breaking to begin with, and the idea of something taking its actions gradually over time rather than in one distinct burst of activity actually helps with my view of the narrative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That's very odd to me.

    I find the idea that everyone acts in discrete turns to be extremely gamist and immersion breaking to begin with, and the idea of something taking its actions gradually over time rather than in one distinct burst of activity actually helps with my view of the narrative.
    When reading a novel, do you read multiple lines at once or one at a time? The imagination is already trained to understand sequential actions and splitting up turns in the spotlight. Breaking up actions over time is indeed excellent if those actions are roughly similar, like the various monster attacks that happen one after another. Using a breath weapon as well as beating your wings and making a tail attack is quite a lot to be doing all at once, even if theoretically plausible. But roaring while also casting a spell is just cheating. The truly impressive named boss monsters are even more divisive. Where players often look for attack patterns to try to formulate tactics, a Kraken can spam Lightning Storms in defiance of that. Seemingly simultaneous actions that aren't related to their physical body attacks are too common. I'm actually fine with Lair actions because they tend to not be so obtrusive, almost as though the environment is taking a turn instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    When reading a novel, do you read multiple lines at once or one at a time? The imagination is already trained to understand sequential actions and splitting up turns in the spotlight. Breaking up actions over time is indeed excellent if those actions are roughly similar, like the various monster attacks that happen one after another. Using a breath weapon as well as beating your wings and making a tail attack is quite a lot to be doing all at once, even if theoretically plausible. But roaring while also casting a spell is just cheating. The truly impressive named boss monsters are even more divisive. Where players often look for attack patterns to try to formulate tactics, a Kraken can spam Lightning Storms in defiance of that. Seemingly simultaneous actions that aren't related to their physical body attacks are too common. I'm actually fine with Lair actions because they tend to not be so obtrusive, almost as though the environment is taking a turn instead.
    That's an extremely weird way of looking at the world. I understand what you are saying, but I am having trouble even processing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That's an extremely weird way of looking at the world. I understand what you are saying, but I am having trouble even processing it.
    Why can't a PC full attack and cast a spell and activate a supernatural power all in the same round?

    Why can this monster?

    The ability to do so clearly exists - what's a PC gotta do to gain / duplicate that ability?

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    It's definitely one of perception but not due to the chassis. You're using game terminology to justify the scenario when the very issue is that it's so gamey. The perception break happens because in the imagination the creature is now acting out of turn when previously we were led to believe that the world (and physics) simply don't allow that. Breaking up multiple attacks across an initiative segment is one thing, it can be seen as iterative and you can do the same with Fighters who swing multiple times. That's a common thing in RPGs when your Speed is just that high. But Legendary actions feel so out of place in a roleplaying setting that they are deliberate attempts at balancing the GAME aspect of combat at the price of its own verisimilitude.
    So, my issue with this is... the "immersion" from how D&D actions work is already so wonky that it shatters the immersion you are talking about.

    In six seconds things work like this:

    P1. moves thirty feet, makes an attack
    p2. moves thirty feet, coordinating around where p1 ended his turn, casts a spell
    p3. moves thirty feet, coordinating around where both p1 and p2 ended their turn, makes an attack
    enemy: would've attacked but p1 moved out of range. moves toward p1 to attack, literally walking through the squares p2 and p3 passed through but they ahve alreavy moved so no interaction. makes an attack.
    p4: moves thirty feet, coordinating around where everyone else ended up. drinks a ptions



    This is a ridiculous and completely un-immersive way to coordinate action on a battlefield, however we are used to it and accept it as normal.

    I argue that having the monster split his actions as reactions to the PCs actions actually INCREASES immersion not decreases it.

    Really the argument is "that monster gets more actions than I do." which is explained as either "yeah to make it more challenging to your entire group." or "yeah but he always did, he just used to have to take them all at the same time"

    Hey, question, in 2nd edition didn't iterative attacks happen at the end of the round? So if a player and/or character get more than 1 attack in a round, they tacked them on again, in order after everyone else had a go?

    Also, I might be imagining this, didn't everyone go around initiative and move, then go around again and attack?
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Why can't a PC full attack and cast a spell and activate a supernatural power all in the same round?

    Why can this monster?

    The ability to do so clearly exists - what's a PC gotta do to gain / duplicate that ability?
    Which is I think why my players don't like them, but that doesn't have much to do with the idea that bunched actions are less immersion breaking than continuous ones that I was responding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Also, I might be imagining this, didn't everyone go around initiative and move, then go around again and attack?
    That's how Shadowrun and WoD handle it. I don't recall AD&D working like that, but if it is the case that certainly has some major implications for class balance.

    Edit: I looked it up. In AD&D bonus attacks (from warrior level, haste, etc.) work like that but simply taking multiple attacks due to dual wielding or having more than one baseline attack does not.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2019-05-17 at 03:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Why can't a PC full attack and cast a spell and activate a supernatural power all in the same round?

    Why can this monster?

    The ability to do so clearly exists - what's a PC gotta do to gain / duplicate that ability?
    "Be that monster type," is the snarkiest answer I can come up with, but more pedantically and even less helpfully, he can cast a spell as a bonus action, use some sort of reaction (possibly to use a supernatural ability), and then move and make his normal action attack(s).

    I have to wonder if, for instance, they're upset about a Legendary action to breathe fire, whether they'd have the same objections of "fiery breath" was a bonus action ability, or a reaction.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Why can't a PC full attack and cast a spell and activate a supernatural power all in the same round?

    Why can this monster?

    The ability to do so clearly exists - what's a PC gotta do to gain / duplicate that ability?
    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Which is I think why my players don't like them,
    You know, I was going to give a longer reply, but… let's just deal with this.

    So, you know why you're players don't like Legendary Actions? Since this is your group, explicitly ask them if this understanding of their complaint is accurate.

    If this is the problem, them you need a world that is consistent as to the "why" and "how".

    If the logic is that I cannot cast and full attack because I'm using those limbs, then I should be able to cast verbal-only spells, and the dragon should find that breathe, roar, cast, and bite are all mutually exclusive actions.

    If the logic is one of focus, then Dragons should suffer the same limits as humans, but creatures with "helper brains" should be more dangerous.

    If the logic is that it's big and threatening lots of squares, then PCs should be able to duplicate that through a combination of growth magic, reach weapons, etc.

    Start with the underlying logic, and build from there.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-05-17 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    You know, I was going to give a longer reply, but… let's just deal with this.

    So, you know why you're players don't like Legendary Actions? Since this is your group, explicitly ask them if this understanding of their complaint is accurate.

    If this is the problem, them you need a world that is consistent as to the "why" and "how".

    If the logic is that I cannot cast and full attack because I'm using those limbs, then I should be able to cast verbal-only spells, and the dragon should find that breathe, roar, cast, and bite are all mutually exclusive actions.

    If the logic is one of focus, then Dragons should suffer the same limits as humans, but creatures with "helper brains" should be more dangerous.

    If the logic is that it's big and threatening lots of squares, then PCs should be able to duplicate that through a combination of growth magic, reach weapons, etc.

    Start with the underlying logic, and build from there.
    So long as you are fine with the Dragon being level 20+ and scry and dying you when you trip it's alarms, sure. XP gain on a 300 year old apex predator means there is never going to be a raw dragon flying around, and their int and charisma are high enough to make them expert tacticians and better mages than you. Aboleths are automatically high epic, being between tens of thousands and millions of years old, and the frontline Devils in the Blood War have hundreds of levels.
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Of all the things that break verisimilitude in D&D, or any other heroic fantasy RPG, "big scary monster takes multiple actions per round" feels like it'd rank pretty row, but apparently not. The idea that the rules represent some kind of objective reality seems to be still pretty well entrenched. I suppose you can reject legendary actions and similar... but then you're not very likely to have satisfying boss fights against legendary monsters. So it goes.
    Last edited by Morty; 2019-05-17 at 05:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Why can't a PC full attack and cast a spell and activate a supernatural power all in the same round?

    Why can this monster?

    The ability to do so clearly exists - what's a PC gotta do to gain / duplicate that ability?
    Why should they be able to?

    Look, this is something that has gone terribly wrong with D&D: Instead of the rules being there to model the object, the object has to be bent around in such a way that it has to conform with the rules.

    Take a look at games that handle "speed" as a real factor, either in the more abstract sense of "Initiative passes" like you get in ShadowRun or World of Darkness, or in a more concrete sense of "tick systems", like Splittermond. Then compare that to the simplified combat round setup you have in 3E+ D&D. You´re old hand at this and repeatedly say that AD&D 2nd is you fav. edition, so you should know how the original idea of the "combat round" was to model all that happens in that particular time frame at once, step by step. Hence why spell casting could be interrupted, how weapon specialization with the 3/2 format works and all of that.

    Now "Legendary" and "Lair" actions go beyond the simple action economy of 5E and model what the creature should really be capable of. A fully-fledged Dragon simple has more to offer than your regular Grey Elf Arcane Knight with his bow and puny spells.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Why can't a PC full attack and cast a spell and activate a supernatural power all in the same round?

    Why can this monster?

    The ability to do so clearly exists - what's a PC gotta do to gain / duplicate that ability?
    Spend their entire life as a dragon and also still be a dragon. Dragons cast spells while attacking because they're big magical monsters who are naturally good at casting spells as part of maulings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    But I'm not telling them what their subjective experience is. I'm simply pointing out that they're looking at six donuts piled up on their plate and complaining that that's too many, and that they preferred the half-dozen they were offered last week.
    Segev, you did it again. Gallowglass is obviously right about how you are not trying to do so. However in this very post you did it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Actually slightly opposite to the point I was making in the post you quoted.
    How can a statement made about both conversions be the opposite of a statement about one of the two conversions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Again, unless I got to act on turn 1.5, and then Talekeal got to act on turn 2.5, and Kyutaru got to act on turn 3.5, and the dragon only filed his taxes on turns 5-6 because that was actually his turn and he got to do all the things you get to do on your turn then, and then the opera was him using talking as a free action, the DM is not using legendary actions right.
    Misses the point.

    How many turns did the Dragon get between PC1's turns? Do you see how that might feel different to PC1 than if the Dragon did all of that on the Dragon's single turn? Do you see why some players might prefer A to B despite you preferring B to A? Several times in this thread posters have explained why Legendary actions might feel worse than non Legendary action solutions. We have done this because Talakeal's players have an objection that Talakeal has forgotten to describe in detail. Each time you replied with "No, think about it like this instead" like you did in the remainder of the post. Knowing why someone might not object is not as useful until we hear why Talakeal's players object. However in the meantime it might be wise if we all recognize some of the possible objections. Instead of saying "No, think about it this way instead". We get it, you do not object to Legendary actions and even like them. I don't object to them and I have tried to be productive by trying to figure out why Talakael's players might object.

    Now, rather than saying they can't feel like that. Could we examine possible roots to that criticism and ways to address them other than by saying "No, you are wrong, clearly your 6 donuts are a half dozen donuts." Maybe the players prefer having more time before the enemy can react even at the cost of having the dragon react more at once.

    PS: Roughly half of this frustration is at Talakeal rather than you.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2019-05-17 at 05:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    You know, I was going to give a longer reply, but… let's just deal with this.

    So, you know why you're players don't like Legendary Actions? Since this is your group, explicitly ask them if this understanding of their complaint is accurate.

    If this is the problem, them you need a world that is consistent as to the "why" and "how".

    If the logic is that I cannot cast and full attack because I'm using those limbs, then I should be able to cast verbal-only spells, and the dragon should find that breathe, roar, cast, and bite are all mutually exclusive actions.

    If the logic is one of focus, then Dragons should suffer the same limits as humans, but creatures with "helper brains" should be more dangerous.

    If the logic is that it's big and threatening lots of squares, then PCs should be able to duplicate that through a combination of growth magic, reach weapons, etc.

    Start with the underlying logic, and build from there.
    A powerful beast getting a bunch of extra actions to weave between the party's attacks is NO LESS LOGICAL than every character standing perfectly still and waiting for each other character to do their full movement and full action one at a time in order through the six second round.

    Logic has no place in either. It seems weird to "accept" the second because you are used to it, but balk at the first because its new to you.

    Actually, I'm more that willing to brain-edit it that every creature with legendary actions has a bunch of "helper brains" seeded through their nervous system like parasitical fetus-twins doing the work for the legendary creature. That is now my new head-canon for how it works. Thank you for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post

    Now, rather than saying they can't feel like that. Could we examine possible roots to that criticism and ways to address them other than by saying "No, you are wrong, clearly your 6 donuts are a half dozen donuts."

    They can feel however they want to feel. But it's six donuts either way. I think it a legitimate conversational purpose to try and point out the reasons why their perception of the problem does not jive with the reality of the situation in the hopes of getting them to change their mind about it. I would like to do that without saying "you guys are stupid" because that just shuts down any chance of them changing their mind, but its hard for me to find somethign to validate for them in what -I- feel is a perception problem.

    ...

    how about...

    I think its valid to find changed rules troubling as you are still getting used to them. And I think its valid to say "after giving it a try I just like the old way better." ?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    ... Gallowglass is obviously right ...
    Hey now! That's signature worthy....
    Last edited by Gallowglass; 2019-05-17 at 05:53 PM.
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

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