The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 680
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Iruka's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Ooh, which band? Blind Guardian? Lake of Tears?
    Blind Guardian



    "Children grow up to be people? All the children I knew grew up to be machines."
    ~Augustus von Fabelrath~

    Member of Peelee's Church of Sudden Skylight

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    As far as Tas goes, Kender are professional adventurers. While he is annoying, he has legitimate skills and knowledge, has been just about everywhere at least once, is as decent a navigator as the setting allows given that the world blew up comparatively recently, and can be exceptionally cunning in his problem solving when he applies himself. Theyre annoyances in the Dragonlance setting because "professional adventurer" is not really a thing unless youre a Kender, but in, say, the Forgotten Realms every adventuring party would want to have a well traveled Kender along.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Sorry for the two day absence; there were a couple very late nights at work. Something involving gamma distributions and other unpleasantness...

    Anyway, on with the reread!

    5: Farewell to Flint. Arrows fly. Message in the Stars

    The companions leave Tika's now smashed up and goblin corpse filled house. Tanis observes that the wind is blowing chilly from the north, heralding rain. Goldmoon and Riverwind, who were already exhausted when they got to the Inn, are looking decidedly worn out now, and Raistlin is wheezing. Clearly they need somewhere to lay low for a while.

    Tas suggests they take a boat across Crystalmir Lake. Tanis points out they don't have a boat, but Tas suggests they take one, and goes ahead to do just that. The kender is clearly having fun, which annoys Tanis. Tanis thinks Flint is going to hate the idea of going anywhere on a boat. Sturm isn't happy about the idea of stealing a boa Tanis points out that they're on the run, and quite a few of their party are already exhausted; they need the boat.

    Caramon goes to help Raistlin, who shakes him off irritably. Tanis wonders aloud why Caramon puts up with Raistlin treating him like that. Sturm responds longingly about family ties, but stops talking. Tanis, an orphan, has no family either. They head off along a trail through the woods heading down to the lake.

    As they're making their way through the trees, they hear a commotion back in town. The bodies have been found!

    Tas has gone ahead to get a boat. Flint hears they're heading for the lake, and refuses to have anything to do with boats. They can see lights moving through the trees behind them now though, and they try to hurry. Caramon is by now basically carrying Raistlin, but appears not to be bothered by the weight. Sturm tells Tanis that Flint really isn't going to get in a boat, come hell or high water.

    They make it to the lake. Tanis' night sight can see the warm shape of Tas in a boat, waiting for them. Both the red and silver moons are up tonight, and Sturm points out they'll make excellent targets against the water. Flint objects even more strongly to the idea of all of them getting in one boat. Tanis points out it's a big boat. Flint declares he's not getting in any boat, "even if it were one of the legendary white winged boats of Tarsis." Tanis tells Sturm to get everybody loaded, and stays to argue with Flint.

    The sound of goblin whistles is now clear; as Sturm explains to Goldmoon, they let the search parties stay in contact with each other. Riverwind is clearly trying to convince Goldmoon to ditch the companions and run for it in the woods, but Goldmoon snaps at him in their own language, and he shuts up, looking angry. Sturm asks if there's anything he can do to help; Goldmoon explains that there's a sore spot in their relationship because she's Chieftain's Daughter, and Riverwind doesn't like being bossed around. Apparently he finds it difficult to trust the companions, because the people of the plains mistrust nonhumans. Sturm asks why Goldmoon apparently trusts them; she explains that she stopped believing in the tribes' prejudices when she fell in love with Riverwind. Before that, she had been worshipped as a goddess.

    This conversation is interrupted by the need to get into the boat. Raistlin tells Caramon he can't get wet, so Caramon picks him up and puts him in the boat. Flint and Tanis are still arguing about the boat, Caramon wants to thunk Flint on the head and haul him off unconscious, Sturm points out that this will only make things worse. Finally Tanis comes back and explains that Flint's going to make for the hills, and they need to go. They're about to shove off, with only Caramon left in the water, when Flint changes his mind and runs pell-mell back for the boat. There are goblins now close behind him, their smokey torches visible through the trees. Tanis gets out his bow and shoots at the goblins, with his night sight he can see them best.

    Flint charges into the water, and promptly sinks like a stone. Everything goes sideways; Caramon is trying to fish Flint out, Tanis is trying to shoot at the goblins, Tas is trying to paddle back to Caramon, and the goblins are getting closer. Caramon manages to grab Flint, but the dwarf is totally panicked and won't stop flailing. Caramon finally loses patience when a goblin arrow hits his chain mail, and bodily tosses Flint into the boat, nearly capsizing it. Sturm grabs the oars from Tasslehoff, and takes them to pick up Caramon, who manages to get in the boat without tipping it. The goblins are still shooting at them, arrows are whistling down all around them, when Raistlin stands up!

    Tanis is about to pull him down, when he realizes Raistlin is casting a spell, and interrupting him could be disastrous. Raistlin makes a gesture, and all the nearest goblins keel over. Caramon cheers. By the time more reach the shore, the boat is out of range. Tanis asks what Raistlin did, he says he put the goblins to sleep. Tanis is impressed, apparently this represents a substantial increase in power for Raistlin. Tanis wishes he could trust Raistlin, who is now coughing badly and seems even more exhausted.

    Goldmoon got wet, and snuggles with Riverwind for warmth. She leans back against Riverwind, looks up, and gasps. Everybody looks at the sky, and Raistlin exclaims that the constellations are gone. Caramon puts his arm around his brother, who is coughing so hard he seems like he's falling apart. When the coughing stops, Raistlin explains.

    "The constellation known as the Queen of Darkness and one called the Valiant Warrior. Both are gone. She has come to Krynn, Tanis, and he has come to fight her. All the evil rumors we heard are true. War, death, destruction..."


    What, you thought there wasn't a Dragonlance constellation map? Of course there's a Dragonlance constellation map. There's a Dragonlance moon calendar too.

    Commentary
    Two big things this chapter; we get the series' first proper action scene, and the constellations.

    The action scene is pretty well done. There's a lot of characters, but Weis & Hickman do a good job of keeping track of everybody without getting bogged down. The tone is serious without being dire, but still appreciates the obvious comedy of Flint's antics, even if the characters don't. It's reasonably tense, and enough stuff goes wrong or gets complicated for things to feel pretty spontaneous. It also feels pretty organic to the story at this point, instead of being there to show off how cool the characters are, though most of them do get a chance to do something useful. Tanis keeps everybody at least mostly organized, Sturm works as an excellent second in command and has some really nice character bits with Goldmoon, which she probably needs at that point since she's bickering with Riverwind and is scared and exhausted. Tas gets the boat, Caramon lifts things, Raistlin puts the goblins to sleep. And Flint is a gigantic pain in the ass, so everybody's contributing!

    The Annotated version notes that when they're going from Solace down to Crystalmir Lake, they cut a scene where Riverwind uses his barbarian skillz to find them a path. I can see why they cut it, since it isn't really necessary, but it is too bad, because he's the only person who hasn't really contributed yet. Really, all he's done is grump as people.

    Speaking of Riverwind, I thought his tension with Goldmoon was pretty well done. I've seen some people suggest that this is just him being sexist and not wanting to take orders from a woman, but this doesn't really fit. There doesn't seem to be a lot of that sort of sexism on Krynn, at least overtly, and disliking your partner bossing you around because she's royalty is a perfectly legit beef. We'll see more of this later, so stick a pin in it for now.


    The constellations disappearing clearly advances the main plot, though just how we don't know yet. We've not yet been told anything about the Queen of Darkness or the Valiant Warrior, but Raistlin's clearly freaked out by this. It's also a really cool bit of worldbuilding and general freakiness, having the stars vanish like that. In other bits of worldbuilding coolness, Krynn has two moons, and one of them is red! This actually shows up pretty frequently in the books, there's some nifty scenes that happen by red moonlight. It's a nice little detail

    Spoiler: Future stuff
    Show
    It turns out that the moons are linked to magic, because they're also the gods of magic. There are three orders of magic; good (the silver moon), neutral (the red moon) and evil, which is associated with the black moon. Only evil wizards can see the black moon. Similarly, the constellations in some sense really are the gods; the Valiant Warrior is Paladine, and Takhisis is the Queen of Darkness. I personally adore this sort of thing; having gods that are literally in the heavens as stars means we definitely aren't in Kansas anymore.

    It's also entirely appropriate that Raistlin's the one who understands the significance of this. Firstly because magic on Krynn is explicitly tied to the movement of the heavenly bodies, so it's his business to know about the meaning of these things. But also because the gods of magic never left Krynn after the Cataclysm, and indeed the wizards have known that the other gods would return/Takhisis would try to conquer everything for a long time. This is elaborated considerably in The Soulforge and Brothers in Arms.


    See? There's a moon chart. Now you can know when to plan your evil magic spells for maximum effect.

    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    I always liked the moons of Krynn. It adds a couple extra layers both to Raist's character (and wizards in general) and provides some interesting narrative mechanics.

    At the character level, it helps make sense why even good wizards are mistrusted. Theyre in some sense cultists of an otherwise dead religion, and naturally people don't appreciate reminders of the gods who smote the planet. It also, as was noted, gives Raist in particular some unique insights into the nature of the gods and the conflict, since he knows the gods never actually went anywhere.

    At a narrative level, you can do so many nice things with having a wizard's powers literally wax and wane with the moons depending on their alignment. Having the evil wizard do his evil ritual when the Black moon is full and the silver moon is new explains why all the good wizards don't just clamp down on him at once, and why he didn't do it sooner. Likewise, having a time when the good wizards are the toughest means that the evil wizards cant establish permanent evil empires the way the Zhentarim do in the Forgotten Realms: eventually the good wizards will get sick of it and come in and beat them up when theyre weak, and the whole thing will break.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JadedDM's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Washington, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    I always thought it weird that Tanis was impressed Raistlin could cast Sleep, a 1st level spell even back in 1E. Does that mean the last time he saw Raistlin, he wasn't even level 1 yet? He's only level 3 at this point, making him the lowest level party member, ironically enough. (Flint and Tas are level 4; Goldmoon, Tanis and Riverwind are level 5; Caramon and Sturm are level 6).

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    I always thought it weird that Tanis was impressed Raistlin could cast Sleep, a 1st level spell even back in 1E. Does that mean the last time he saw Raistlin, he wasn't even level 1 yet? He's only level 3 at this point, making him the lowest level party member, ironically enough. (Flint and Tas are level 4; Goldmoon, Tanis and Riverwind are level 5; Caramon and Sturm are level 6).
    Yeah, it is sort of weird. Though on the other hand, it's not like Tanis would have any particular reason to know how powerful any given spell is. And, at least if you go with The Soulforge, Raistlin certainly could cast sleep five plus years prior, he just didn't exactly advertise this. Which is rather in keeping for Raistlin after all.

    Also, given where Raistlin ends the trilogy, it means he must really stack on the levels when nobody's looking. Maybe that's why he's always a wreck, while everybody else is sleeping he's secretly off doing solo adventures for the XP.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    The easiest explanation is to ignore D&D rules and say that putting a large number of people to sleep is quite difficult.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The easiest explanation is to ignore D&D rules and say that putting a large number of people to sleep is quite difficult.
    Especially since narratively Sleep is a pretty powerful spell (what with it being able to completely neutralize multiple targets from a distance.) It would make sense for the authors to treat such a spell as being more powerful than a 1st level spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin
    Speaking of Riverwind, I thought his tension with Goldmoon was pretty well done. I've seen some people suggest that this is just him being sexist and not wanting to take orders from a woman, but this doesn't really fit. There doesn't seem to be a lot of that sort of sexism on Krynn, at least overtly
    Spoiler
    Show
    IIRC several Ansalonian societies were depicted as being overtly sexist (in particular the Qualinesti and Solamnics.)

    On the Qualinesti it's mentioned in Dragons of Winter Night that they don't allow women to attend war meetings. (Which would obviously mean that women are not allowed to take on leadership roles in their society.)

    As for the Solamnics, in Dragons of Winter Night it's stated that it is unheard of for a woman to speak before a Knight's Council and in Dragons of Spring Dawning the Palanthians are horrified at seeing Laurana wearing armor and pressure her to get back into a dress as soon as possible.

    Now that doesn't mean that the Que-Shu would also be an overtly sexist society, but it is mentioned later in this novel that their punishment for a warrior who displays cowardice in battle is to make him wear woman's clothing. Such a punishment (with its implication that cowards act like women) certainly suggests a very male chauvinist society, and if so then it would make sense that Riverwind would inherit some of those cultural attitudes.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Especially since narratively Sleep is a pretty powerful spell (what with it being able to completely neutralize multiple targets from a distance.) It would make sense for the authors to treat such a spell as being more powerful than a 1st level spell.



    Spoiler
    Show
    IIRC several Ansalonian societies were depicted as being overtly sexist (in particular the Qualinesti and Solamnics.)

    On the Qualinesti it's mentioned in Dragons of Winter Night that they don't allow women to attend war meetings. (Which would obviously mean that women are not allowed to take on leadership roles in their society.)

    As for the Solamnics, in Dragons of Winter Night it's stated that it is unheard of for a woman to speak before a Knight's Council and in Dragons of Spring Dawning the Palanthians are horrified at seeing Laurana wearing armor and pressure her to get back into a dress as soon as possible.

    Now that doesn't mean that the Que-Shu would also be an overtly sexist society, but it is mentioned later in this novel that their punishment for a warrior who displays cowardice in battle is to make him wear woman's clothing. Such a punishment (with its implication that cowards act like women) certainly suggests a very male chauvinist society, and if so then it would make sense that Riverwind would inherit some of those cultural attitudes.
    Man, somehow I'd forgotten all that. Thanks for setting me straight. Also, the elves are jerks.


    Onwards with the reread! Two chapters today, because it's a slow Sunday, and these are pretty straightforwards chapters.

    5: Night in a cave. Dissension. Tanis decides.

    It starts to blow cold from the north and rain quite heavily while the companions are rowing across the lake. This is exactly as miserable as it sounds; Flint is literally stiff with fear. Eventually they find the cave Tanis is looking for, and they land. Tas is having fun, and thinks that the tension of recent events has snapped Tanis out of his funk, and back into decisive mode. Riverwind gets a fire going and hides the cave entrance with brush. Tanis checks in on Raistlin, who looks as bad as he did when Tanis and the others saved him from being burned by a mob, who were angry he had revealed a false cleric as a fraud. Goldmoon offers to heal him with the staff, but Raistlin says it won't work, that his wrecked body is the price he paid for his magic.

    Sturm is in a bad mood by this point; he's pissed at Flint, at having to steal boats, and freaked out by the disappearing stars, and shows signs of sliding into a depression. He says he'll take first watch. Riverwind says he'll watch with Sturm, who takes this as a slight on his honor, and ready to fight a duel about the matter. Riverwind backs off, saying he meant no insult, but has been afraid since he found the staff, and is scared for Goldmoon's safety. Sturm accepts this readily enough, and tells Riverwind to get some sleep.

    Tas is sorting through the contents of his pouches. Tanis notices a familiar elven ring of gold ivy leaves in among the odds, ends, and feathers from goatsucker birds. Apparently the ring was a gift from someone a long time ago that he keeps just out of mind. He reclaims the ring from Tas, who's glad he found it, since obviously Tanis dropped it when they were back in the Inn.


    Yes that is a custom-made Dragonlance-themed wedding ring. And I thought I liked this series...

    Tanis asks Tas if he has a map of the area; Tas loves maps and immediately produces his enormous collection. The map reveals that there's really only one sensible route from where they are to Haven, and it's bound to be watched. On that unpleasant note, everybody goes to sleep.


    The next morning is cold and cheerless. There isn't a lot of breakfast; apparently Tika's larder was not terribly well stocked. Caramon devours his portion in a flash, eats most of Raistlin's - Raistlin never eats much - and all of Sturm's, whose depression has persisted and is refusing to eat anything this morning. Not that anybody else (except Tas) is in a good mood, and Tas is driving everyone up the wall, teasing Flint about the boat and making a general racket. Sturm snaps at him, points out they can't stay where they are, and asks where they are going.

    Tanis concludes that the Theocrat (Hederick of the self-burned hand) is corrupt (also an idiot), but the rest of the Seekers in Haven may still be decent. He thinks they should head there, and if the Seekers in Haven are corrupt, they should make for the elven kingdom of Qualinesti. Riverwind argues they can't go there, the roads are hidden and humans are banned. Raistlin says the path through Darken Wood leads directly to Qualinesti.


    This is honestly the best copy of the map of Abanasinia that I could find, the one in the book is slightly more readable. Basically they're on the coast of the blank area labeled Crystalmir Lake on the top left, and need to get through the squidgy bits representing forest and/or mountains to Haven, which is sort of center left. Darken Wood is the direct route, with Qaulinesti below that. Also, if you spend a while googling Dragonlance maps, you can fall into a warren of really astonishing weirdness. Like, deeply customized alternative takes on Krynn in meticulously documented websites weird. Annoyingly, they also seem to use non-canon maps.

    There's general uproar at this suggestion. Caramon says he'll fight the living, but not the dead - Tas is very interested in the dead - Sturm says it's madness to go there, that nobody returns. Tanis tells everybody to shut up, and everybody listens, even Sturm. This is somewhat odd on the face of it, since Sturm is a knight, and Tanis holds no rank, yet Sturm always defers to Tanis. Sturm's greatest fear is that one day the Knight's Code, "My honor is my life" will fail, but feels that if that happens, Tanis will be there for him.

    Tanis points out that the staff is Goldmoon and Riverwind's, and they are free to go where they want, but he thinks they should accept the companion's help. Riverwind thinks he and Goldmoon should head for Haven, sans the others. Goldmoon however accepts Tanis' help, and head to Haven together.

    Tanis appoints Tas as their guide through Solace Vale to the road to Haven. They set out, Flint grumbling about the weather, Riverwind covering their tracks as they go.


    7: The story of the staff. Strange clerics. Eerie feelings
    It's slow going through the woods, thanks to an unpleasant vine that ties you up until some predator or other can come along and eat you. Apparently the vine needs blood. On account of this, it takes a long time to get to the road, and everybody's scratched and even more annoyed when they get there. They notice that there's not a sound in the air, as if everything is holding its breath, waiting. They are suddenly reluctant to leave the cover of the trees, but at Tanis points out, it'll take weeks to get to Haven through the bush. Tas volunteers to go ahead and scout, since nobody will think anything of a kender travelling alone. Tanis OKs this, but warns Tas to stay focused and not make off with anybody's stuff, "Unless they're bakers" the ever-hungry Caramon adds. Tas sets off down the road, singing a mildly dirty song about a sailing ship.

    A few minutes later the others set off after him. Sturm marches along, clearly still unhappy. Raistlin is reading his spellbook as they march; wizards need to re-memorize their spells every day. Tanis walks with Riverwind and Goldmoon, who tells him about their backstory. Apparently she and Riverwind have been in love for years, but in order to marry Chieftain's Daughter, a warrior has to perform some great feat. Riverwind's family is unpopular, since his grandfather believed in the old gods, so Goldmoon's father said Riverwind had to find an object that proved the old gods existed.

    Riverwind looked for years, until a week ago when he reappeared clutching the staff and mad with fever. In his illness, he spoke of a ruined city where "death had black wings" and a woman clothed in blue light who healed him and gave him the staff. Recalling the woman seemed to break the fever, and when he recovered, he presented the staff to Goldmoon's father, saying it was a gift from an unknown goddess. The staff was for all appearances a piece of wood, so the chief ordered Riverwind stoned for blasphemy. Goldmoon ran to him as the stones flew, there was a flash of light, and they were on the outskirts of Solace.

    Tanis asks Riverwind about the ruined city, Riverwind deflects, and asks why Tanis is called half-elf and not half-man. Tanis reels a bit at this comment, but realizes he's being tested and answers that "According to humans, a half an elf is but part of whole being. Galf a man is a cripple." Riverwind seems to find this answer acceptable, and says that black winged death rose up like a god from the darkness, and that the woman in blue light healed him in the broken city, he was dying.

    Tanis ponders the staff, but is interrupted by Tas running back down the road, waving his arms. Tanis orders everybody in the bushes; everyone but Sturm hides, Sturm flat out refuses. Tanis asks Tas what is coming, and Tas says its a party of eight clerics, wrapped head to foot in cloth, and which gave him an eerie feeling. This rather worries Tanis, since kender don't feel fear. Anything that gives Tas eerie feelings is probably bad news. He suggests that Sturm talk to them, and hides with the others. Raistlin points out that Tika had mentioned clerics exactly like that, looking for the staff, and it's quite a coincidence for them to have appeared in Solace at the same time as Goldmoon and Riverwind. Perhaps the staff is rightfully the clerics'? Goldmoon looks concerned and a bit doubtful.

    A moment later, the clerics round the corner. They are tall, and indeed completely covered in cloth, even their hands are wrapped in bandages. There are eight of them, several are pushing a small, covered cart. They greet Sturm, who is leaning against the fence at the edge of the road. Sturm asks them about the road ahead, commenting on rumors of war. The clerics deny that there is any war to the north, and ask about the blue crystal staff. Sturm says he heard about such a staff in Solace, from the same people who mentioned war in the north, so should he believe them or not? This momentarily backfoots the cleric, so Sturm asks why the need a blue crystal staff.

    The cleric responds that they need to heal one of their brothers, who will die without it. Sturm asks how they lost something as valuable as a healing staff, the cleric says it was stolen. They traced the thief to a village in the Plains of Dust, but the trail went cold. Sturm says he can't help them - when Goldmoon steps out of the bushes, saying she will, and that she has to know. Riverwind follows her, and Caramon follows Riverwind; Tanis grabs Tas, leaving the pair of them, Flint and Raistlin in the woods, with the others heading onto the road.

    Commentary
    These chapters are mostly character building, by which I mean characters being crabby at each other while trekking from A to B. Yes, it's the fantasy staple, miserable travel sections. Fortunately the Dragonlance version is fairly concise: Everybody's cold, wet, underfed, everyone but Tas is some level of scared, upset and/or worried about somebody else, so there's a certain amount of bickering. This sort of section happens a couple other places throughout the series, but it never drags on all that much; I think Weis & Hickman generally do a pretty good job of showing the unpleasant effects of roughing it on people, without dwelling on it overmuch.

    The most notable character development in these two chapters is Sturm. The rigidity of his thinking and his honor-based approach to life is shown up pretty well, both as a problem that the others have to deal with (he won't hide) and how it shapes his own life. He's also pretty clearly just a naturally somewhat grim, rather depressive person, and one of the interesting things about Dragonlance to me is that basically everybody just accepts this. There isn't some hideously awkward attempt to cheer him up all the time, or even much of a suggestion that he shouldn't be how he is. It's actually a pretty remarkable bit of diversity in characterization, that there's space for somebody as infuriatingly cheerful as Tas and as infuriatingly grim as Sturm in the same world, let alone the same group.

    The bit with Goldmoon doubting her possession of the staff is a good bit of character conflict, but it's way too rushed. It only comes up because Raistlin is being vaguely horrible and completely accurate in pointing out that they don't know the staff is hers by rights, and paid off like three paragraphs later when she jumps out of the ditch to confront the freaky clerics. It's not totally out of character, she's clearly pretty open to new people and the clerics haven't actually done anything alarming, except be alarming as hell, but it's still an unfortunately rushed point.

    On the other hand, it seems difficult to work in much earlier. If somebody mentioned that the staff might not be hers back in Solace, it'd be really hard to get the companions, much less Sturm, to help her and Riverwind in the first place. And since this is literally the next day, it's sort of the only place it can go, and she needs some reason to confront the clerics, so this is as good as any.


    Spoiler: Future stuff
    Show

    This section also contains what I think is the all-time most ironic bit of Dragonlance; Sturm thinking that Tanis will be there for him when the code fails. Tanis is... not there. Tanis is, in fact, swapping bodily fluids with the commander of the army bent on killing Sturm and everything he holds dear, and who does kill Sturm.

    We also get our first mention of Laurana in this chapter, only in passing. Laurana is, of course, the stealthily coolest person in the trilogy, with probably the most dramatic character arc. Alas, at this point she's mostly just there to provide another source of minor background angst for Tanis.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JadedDM's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Washington, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Once, when I ran this game, we had a player who had never read the books or really knew anything at all about Dragonlance play Goldmoon. At the scene with the mysterious clerics, she, too, burst from the shrubs and offered to use the staff to heal the sick person. I remember we were all sort of surprised that it happened even without knowing it happened in the books, too.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Spoiler: Future stuff
    Show

    We also get our first mention of Laurana in this chapter, only in passing. Laurana is, of course, the stealthily coolest person in the trilogy, with probably the most dramatic character arc.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Hear, hear! (Though I would say Laurana is the blatantly coolest person in the trilogy.)

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Been reading the reading, and I thought I would point out, that the first book was I recall, nearly all copied from the when the group with the writers played through a number of modules that they had written.

    Regarding Tas and Kender: Yeah, they are really crazy, and frankly only work in book. In game, they end up becoming major trouble. Since, in a book, the Authors could control what the Kender did, they might not have seen the general effect of what a player would do when using one. Which frequently meant being a troll.

    I like the Wizard Concepts, because those are pretty good. The Three Moons, the Test (really wish that could have used more in other Settings, I know FR could have majorly benefited from it). The 'Steel as Gold Coins' was an interesting idea that never really worked in any of the game material.

    I think Sturm was supposed to be some kind of Paladin class, while being referred to as a Knight. So the Knights of Solemnia(SP?) are supposed to be all paladins. Originally, though since I think it gets somewhat lost along the way or changed.

    I think i liked the group compared to other D&D book parties, because they are pretty dysfunctional. Drizzt and his companions are quickly friends and pals; Our Dragonlance group here has issues with each other, problems with working together, and more are really seeming to having drifted apart while they were separated. It feels less like a cohesive D&D party than a group of friends that haven't seen each other in a while trying to figure out why they were together again. It works for the book really good, that re-establishment of their friendships later on; but feels really different from reading any of the usual Forgotten Realms books, like Drizzt's.

    Spoiler: Spoiler: Don't Read If you don't want to be spoiled
    Show
    Of course, it makes the group splitting up and some members not meeting ever again, work really great in the second book.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Been reading the reading, and I thought I would point out, that the first book was I recall, nearly all copied from the when the group with the writers played through a number of modules that they had written.
    Thanks for reading! I appreciate all the comments too, even if I don't reply to all of them.


    I like the Wizard Concepts, because those are pretty good. The Three Moons, the Test (really wish that could have used more in other Settings, I know FR could have majorly benefited from it). The 'Steel as Gold Coins' was an interesting idea that never really worked in any of the game material.
    Yeah, the orders of magic turn out to work really well. It's like a mage's guild with genuine teeth, and a whole lot of cool flavor. The steel coins thing doesn't work in approximately all the ways; I'll comment more when it comes up.


    I think Sturm was supposed to be some kind of Paladin class, while being referred to as a Knight. So the Knights of Solemnia(SP?) are supposed to be all paladins. Originally, though since I think it gets somewhat lost along the way or changed.
    The Knights of Solamnia are weird. I'm not sure how they were handled in 2nd Edition, but in the 3.5 sourcebook for Dragonlance, the Knight of the Crown/Sword/Rose ranking is set up as follows. First you need to be a Squire of the Crown, meet some martial flavored pre-requisites and take levels in the Knight of the Crown prestige class. To make Knight of the Sword, you need to be a Knight of the Sword and have picked up a level of divine spellcasting somewhere. Knight of the Rose requires 3 levels of Sword, 1 level of Sword, and casting second level divine spells. Crown is entirely martial, Sword is sort of discount alternative flavored cleric, and Rose is like kinda cleric, but with full BAB progression. It's basically a really complicated way to build yourself a paladin while choosing how much weight to give to the martial side vs. the caster side.

    On a different note, checking that reminded me just how painfully over-stuffed 3.5 was. Wow.

    I think i liked the group compared to other D&D book parties, because they are pretty dysfunctional. Drizzt and his companions are quickly friends and pals; Our Dragonlance group here has issues with each other, problems with working together, and more are really seeming to having drifted apart while they were separated. It feels less like a cohesive D&D party than a group of friends that haven't seen each other in a while trying to figure out why they were together again. It works for the book really good, that re-establishment of their friendships later on; but feels really different from reading any of the usual Forgotten Realms books, like Drizzt's.
    There is a certain amount of lack of function, yes. It definitely adds to the proceedings. Particularly refreshing, not everybody totally gets over their varied malfunctions.

    Onwards to ill-advised encounters with creepy clerics!

    8: Search for truth. Unexpected answers

    Goldmoon, followed by Riverwind and Caramon, go up onto the road to meet the clerics. The text gives a bit of Goldmoon's backstory here; emphasizing that she's been de facto leader of her tribe for a decade, since her father had what is clearly described as a stroke. She therefore knows exactly what she is doing, and is aware that the clerics are likely dangerous, but has decided she needs to know the truth about the staff. The clerics are looking for the staff, ergo they must know something about it. She offers to help the dying cleric in the cart, but insists that the staff was given to them, and will not surrender it without proof that the clerics have a rightful claim.

    While the clerics hesitate, Tanis notes that they have suspicious, weapon-shaped bulges under their robes, and figures the situation for a trap. But he's still hiding in the trees, and can't warm the others without giving his location away; Tanis and Sturm meanwhile seem totally oblivious to the danger. Tanis contents himself with knocking an arrow.

    The lead cleric says that if they go to Haven, they'll present proof that the staff is rightfully theirs. Caramon says that's not happening. Goldmoon brushes off the cleric, and approaches the cart, where apparently the sick cleric is. As one of the other clerics draws back the cloth covering of the cart, Tanis sees movement and a flash of blue light. Goldmoon jumps back, Riverwind jumps forward, and as Tanis yells out a warning, somebody jumps out of the tree above him, crushing him into the ground.

    Tanis is suffocating in the man's incredibly strong grip and the muddy ground when suddenly the man restraining him goes limp. Flint has whacked him with a log but - when they roll the figure over, it isn't human! It's some sort of hideous reptile man with wings, clawed hands, scaly hide, and a face twisted between man and lizard. Tanis, Flint and even Raistlin are momentarily stunned by this horrible sight, but their attention is rapidly pulled back to the ongoing fight on the road.

    Goldmoon had looked in the cart and wondered what sickness could change a person's skin to scales, when the reptile man in the cart lunged and tried to grab the staff. When it touched the staff however, it flashed blue and burned the thing's hand. Another of the clerics grabs her from behind, but she kicks backwards and breaks his knee, then spins around and lays him out with a blow from her staff, which seems to hit surprisingly hard. She backs up, swinging the staff to keep the other clerics back.

    Riverwind, on seeing the figure in the cart, freezes up entirely. Goldmoon yells at him, and he snaps out of it, and jumps on one of the clerics fighting Goldmoon, who whacks another with her staff, which again flashes blue.

    Draconian by Denis Beauvais. This is the chapter art for this chapter, so I actually found one! To be fair to Riverwind, I'd freeze the hell up too if that jumped out at me.

    Sturm had seen the clawed hand of the figure in the cart just before Tanis' warning and figured it was a trap, giving him time to draw his sword. He's caught off guard by Riverwind's panic however, but saves the plainsman's life by stabbing the creature in the cart before it can strike Riverwind with an axe held in its un-burned hand. The dying reptile man jumps on Sturm, and wrestles him to the ground, but expires mid wrestling match. Sturm pulls himself out from under the creature, and attempts to retrieve his sword, but it won't come out. The creature has turned to stone, trapping the blade!

    Sturm mostly ducks a blow from another cleric, but gets cut across the head by an axe, and goes down. Caramon goes to aid him, wounding one creature with a dagger, which just seems to piss it off. Caramon starts to panic, but Raistlin says he's got his brother's back, and this calms him. The brothers fight well together, thanks to their years of mercenary work. Raistlin tells Caramon that the clerics are reptile men that turn to stone when killed, so not to stab them. Caramon drops his sword and dagger. Two of the clerics, their robes now flapping open, revealing their scaly hide, lunge at him. Raistlin casts his sleep spell again, but the reptile men just shake it off; apparently they are resistant to magic. Their momentary drowsiness gives Caramon the time he needs to repeat his trick with the goblins, and kill them by bashing their heads together. Another two clerics start to rush forwards, Raistlin tells Caramon to get behind him, and casts a wave of fire at the advancing reptile men. One hides under the cart, which catches fire, the other is incinerated.

    Tanis meanwhile has beaten the reptile man attacking Sturm senseless with the flat of his sword, and dragged the dazed knight into the bush. Sturm asks Tanis to retrieve his sword, still sticking out of the statue of the first reptile he killed. Tanis tells Flint and Tas to guard Sturm. Flint, grumbling, tells Tas to patch up Sturm, and gets ready to fight any lizard men who come their way. Tas is delighted to see that Sturm's sword is trapped in the statue of the cleric he stabbed, and goes to get it, but ends up tripping Flint with his hoopak, just as another cleric rushes them. He turns around to see that Flint is, for some reason, fighting the cleric lying flat on his back, which doesn't make much sense to Tas. Ever practical, he clocks the cleric over the head with the hoopak, and goes to get the sword.

    A draconian by Keith Parkinson. Personally I've always liked this interpretation, with the curved, almost ram-like horns. It sells them as really weird and out there, not just spiky humans

    Goldmoon has by this point reduced three reptile men to charred rock with her staff, and Riverwind has lost his sword in the stony body of another. Tanis tosses him a dagger, and they run back towards the others, killing another couple clerics on the way. There's a lot of smoke from the burning cart, but as they reach the trees, Tanis sees dark winged shapes floating down to block the road, about half a mile away from them in either direction. Tanis tries to figure out where everybody is while Goldmoon helps the wounded Sturm. Flint is cursing out Tasslehoff, who is dragging Sturm's sword back from the road. Tas is crying from the smoke, but grinning delightedly. Apparently when he pulled the sword, the statue-body just crumbled into dust! Isn't that the most amazing thing!

    The baaz draconian miniature from Wizards' old line of prepainted minis. I've got like 4 of these dudes, from back in the day. Also a Lord Soth, which I bought as a single. No, I did not date in high school, why do you ask?

    Caramon and Raistlin appear out of the smoke, Caramon wants to know if they've killed all the reptile clerics. Tanis says they've not, and the road is blocked, so they need to run into the woods. Sturm is on his feet, looking pale but no longer bleeding. The staff has healed him - mostly. It has limits. Caramon points out that heading south into the woods will take them into Darken Wood. Tanis asks if Caramon would still rather fight the living, if they're more of the horrible reptile men. Riverwind points out that they could backtrack north to the boat, at which Flint starts running dead south.

    Commentary
    Lizard people! With wings! That turn to stone when they die! The turning to stone thing is genuinely weird; and serves both as an excellent problem for the characters to have to solve, and to make the reptile people seem really alien and unnatural.

    So we had the escape to the boat earlier, but this is the series' first big stand up fight. Again, it's pretty well done, things move along at a good clip, and we mostly know what everybody is doing. Wisely, Weis & Hickman don't narrate every moment from every character's perspective, and mostly default to Tanis as the POV character. But Sturm, Flint, Goldmoon, Tas and Caramon all get momentary POV time as well, which helps bring the larger fight into perspective. For instance, it's cool that we know when different people figure out it's a trap, even if you can nearly hear the initiative dice clattering in the background. The whole thing also ends up feeling reasonably like a small, unplanned skirmish should, everybody's running around, it's difficult to maintain situational awareness, and a ton of things are happening everywhere at once.

    Character-building wise, there's really three points in this chapter. We see some more of Tanis in Leader Mode, trying to corral his not entirely functional party into cohesive action and (mostly) managing it. We also get the very cool bit of Goldmoon's backstory, with running the tribe for her crippled father. One of the things I'm noticing in this reread is the amount of attention Goldmoon gets, which I tend to forget about for some reason. She really comes out of this looking quite impressive; just tally up the week she's had. Like eight days prior she was basically running a tribe, then was willing to sacrifice herself to save her love, then was teleported to a place she's never been, full of strange people she has to deal with, and now she's clocking horrible lizard men with a magic staff. We also get Riverwind freezing up - when Goldmoon is clearly in danger, no less. Clearly there's some backstory there, which we haven't seen yet.

    And lastly we get a case of Tas nearly getting Flint killed and not noticing. This happens a lot.

    Also, notice how the blue crystal staff zaps the lizard men with blue light? Remember it did the same thing, albeit much less lethally, to Raistlin? Is that implying that Raistlin is... evil?

    Spoiler: Future stuff
    Show

    Yes, that is exactly what it is implying. Well, not evil (yet). Raistlin wears red robes, which means he's officially Neutral, although this is more a strategic choice on his part, since apparently the educational opportunities are better for a neutral wizard than for a dyed in the black robes evil one, and there's no way Raistlin can pass as good. Not after the Test, anyway.

    The reptile men are of course draconians. These are unique to Dragonlance, and are basically magically engineered dragon/human hybrids that serve as evil shock troopers. They're sort of like orcs in that regard, but the part dragon thing gives them a dramatically different aesthetic. I'm not sure, but I think the entire race of dragon/human hybrids were relatively unique at the time.

    Even now they're distinct from similar concepts like Dragonborn in appearance, since they're clearly much more animistic. One of the liberties that comes from being evil I suppose is that the art department can get a lot more creative than 'human but with scales.' And while turning into stone when somebody kills you isn't so great as a PC power, it's way cooler than breathing fire once a day.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    One thing that I always forget on my re-reads is that the Draconians are not in fact colored after the chromatic dragons, but the metallic ones. This is especially baffling to me because the books call out the coloration of the scales at least a few different times, using it as a somewhat important way to distinguish between the different types. In my brain, all the draconians are colored with black scales unless the color is specifically mentioned, and theres really no good reason for this except, I guess, that Riverwind uses the term "death on black wings" to describe what is for the longest time implied to be the draconians.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    One thing that I always forget on my re-reads is that the Draconians are not in fact colored after the chromatic dragons, but the metallic ones. This is especially baffling to me because the books call out the coloration of the scales at least a few different times, using it as a somewhat important way to distinguish between the different types. In my brain, all the draconians are colored with black scales unless the color is specifically mentioned, and theres really no good reason for this except, I guess, that Riverwind uses the term "death on black wings" to describe what is for the longest time implied to be the draconians.
    Spoiler: Future Stuff
    Show
    It's eventually revealed to be the Black Dragon



    Anyways, I love love love draconians. Kang's Regiment remains one of my favorite parts about Dragonlance, and as a race they are just so damn cool. Particularly how utterly screwed over they are by the setting. None of the 'Good' races will really accept them and they were basically treated as cannon fodder by the Evil races.

    Spoiler: Kang's Regiment Stuff
    Show
    So their whole quest to ensure a future for their race (first by getting the female draconians, then by reaching a ruined city to claim as their own) is downright the best arc in Dragonlance. Particularly because, for me, this was the first time I saw a story from the evil race's point of view only to find that, hey, they really weren't that evil. A race of super soldiers born for war, and they are like, nah man, I want a home where I can live in peace. Also screw you guys for f-ing us over so hard in the last war.

    I really wish they eventually did a third book with the Draconians trying to establish themselves as a neutral power after Dragons of a Vanished Moon.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  16. - Top - End - #46
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JadedDM's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Washington, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    There are five types of draconians. Baaz, Bozaks, Kapaks, Sivaks and Auraks. Each one has a different death throe, and baaz turn to stone. Other types have different kinds of effects when they die. Baaz are the most numerous of the draconians, so they are the ones most commonly encountered.

    The reason they have metallic colored scales instead of chromatic is actually a big plot point in the series:

    Spoiler: Future Stuff
    Show
    Before the war started, the chromatic dragons stole the eggs of the metallic dragons and used them as hostages to keep the metallic dragons out of the war. Obviously, though, the forces of evil did not keep their word and started experimenting on the eggs using dark magic (both sorcery and prayer). They developed a process to turn the metallic eggs into draconians. That's why they have metallic scales instead of chromatic ones.


    I'm a big fan of the Kang's regiment series, too. It's a pity there are no more. Even if Dragonlance was still in print, there wouldn't be, though. They were written together by Weis and her husband. But then they divorced, so no more Kang books.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Death realm
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    A question I always had, as much as I loved this series, is
    Spoiler: IS?!
    Show
    Majere. Like, I can't recall any time he was mentioned in the books till after Raistlin's ascension, and even then, maybe my memory is fuzzy, but the way he was described it might as well be Raistlin, if it wasn't. Yet technically he had a constellation long before Raistlin did the thing that forced Tas to time travel, and his brother to completely give up on him. So am I going crazy, or did he always have that destiny and it just took awhile for us to see him get there?

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    A question I always had, as much as I loved this series, is
    Spoiler: IS?!
    Show
    Majere. Like, I can't recall any time he was mentioned in the books till after Raistlin's ascension, and even then, maybe my memory is fuzzy, but the way he was described it might as well be Raistlin, if it wasn't. Yet technically he had a constellation long before Raistlin did the thing that forced Tas to time travel, and his brother to completely give up on him. So am I going crazy, or did he always have that destiny and it just took awhile for us to see him get there?
    Well,

    Spoiler: Majere
    Show
    There is one of the Gods of Krynn that happens to be named Majere. Majere is a God for Monks, I believe.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JadedDM's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Washington, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    A question I always had, as much as I loved this series, is
    Spoiler: IS?!
    Show
    Majere. Like, I can't recall any time he was mentioned in the books till after Raistlin's ascension, and even then, maybe my memory is fuzzy, but the way he was described it might as well be Raistlin, if it wasn't. Yet technically he had a constellation long before Raistlin did the thing that forced Tas to time travel, and his brother to completely give up on him. So am I going crazy, or did he always have that destiny and it just took awhile for us to see him get there?
    Spoiler
    Show
    Majere is the stoic god of meditation, discipline, contemplation, unarmed combat, and inspiration. He doesn't get a lot of limelight in the books (aside from Paladine, Takhisis, Mishakal, and Reorx, most of the gods don't, really), but aside from the fact that Raistlin's family was named after him, there's is no connection at all between them.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    I think if Tanis and Roy ever met, they would get on like a house on fire. In Tanis's party are a wizard that is more interested in insulting people than he is in helping, a kender that's at least as bad as Elan, a grumpy dwarf who's getting too old for this nonsense, and a chronically depressed knight. They could probably get through a week of nights at the bar swapping tales about how dysfunctional their parties are.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Thanks for doing this reread! I forgot how much I enjoyed this series. While it may have some regrettable 1980's cultural aspects, *coughsexismcough*, it was written with a ton of heart.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Anyways, I love love love draconians. Kang's Regiment remains one of my favorite parts about Dragonlance, and as a race they are just so damn cool. Particularly how utterly screwed over they are by the setting. None of the 'Good' races will really accept them and they were basically treated as cannon fodder by the Evil races.
    I liked the Kang's Regiment stories also though I felt that the idea that the draconians were being treated as cannon fodder by the evil races was a bit of a retcon that didn't really fit with how the draconians were portrayed in the earlier novels.

    Spoiler
    Show
    After all in the Chronicles and Legends we seem a number of draconians in positions of trust and authority throughout the Dragonarmies (Gakhan is the most obvious example, but there was also a draconian wizard in charge of the flying citadel in Test of the Twins, a draconian acting as the Red Dragonarmy's emissary in Tarsis in Dragons of Winter Night, and later in this novel we see a draconian plotting with Ember to go around Verminaard's back.) Indeed there is kind of an undercurrent throughout the Chronicles that the chromatic dragons (backed by the draconians) are the ones truly running the Dragonarmies, and the Dragon Highlords are puppets that will be discarded when they are no longer useful.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    I liked the Kang's Regiment stories also though I felt that the idea that the draconians were being treated as cannon fodder by the evil races was a bit of a retcon that didn't really fit with how the draconians were portrayed in the earlier novels.

    Spoiler
    Show
    After all in the Chronicles and Legends we seem a number of draconians in positions of trust and authority throughout the Dragonarmies (Gakhan is the most obvious example, but there was also a draconian wizard in charge of the flying citadel in Test of the Twins, a draconian acting as the Red Dragonarmy's emissary in Tarsis in Dragons of Winter Night, and later in this novel we see a draconian plotting with Ember to go around Verminaard's back.) Indeed there is kind of an undercurrent throughout the Chronicles that the chromatic dragons (backed by the draconians) are the ones truly running the Dragonarmies, and the Dragon Highlords are puppets that will be discarded when they are no longer useful.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Im not sure I agree. While they were certainly pretty much the entirety of the armies in the War of the Lance, it seems clear to me they were never meant to actually replace humans as the dominant race on Krynn, at least long term. Their method of creation simply isn't sustainable, and as soon as the current generation gets old and dies, the Takhisis-worshiping humans, goblins and ogres are going to be the ones managing the pieces (assuming they win). You'll note that once they lose the War of the Lance, the forces of darkness go right back on to using conventional armies, and Draconians become an unusual sight even in the military.

    Fodder may have been the wrong word, but they were definitely disposable.


    Also, the original trilogy is how old now? how concerned are we about spoilers in this thread?
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-05-21 at 10:16 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    On the tip of my tongue

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Also, the original trilogy is how old now? how concerned are we about spoilers in this thread?
    Exactly enough to follow the convention set by the OP in the OP as a courtesy to the OP.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Dragonexx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Majere is the stoic god of meditation, discipline, contemplation, unarmed combat, and inspiration. He doesn't get a lot of limelight in the books (aside from Paladine, Takhisis, Mishakal, and Reorx, most of the gods don't, really), but aside from the fact that Raistlin's family was named after him, there's is no connection at all between them.
    Spoiler: Majere
    Show
    There is a later trilogy called the Dark Disciple trilogy (written by Weis) and one of the main characters in that story is a Monk of Majere. So he gets more attention there.
    Pokemon Mystery Dungeon D20: A system designed for adventuring in a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon world.

    The Review/Analysis Thread: In-depth reviews of various games and RPG products.

    The New/Redone Monsters Thread: Taking bad or bland monsters and making them more interesting and challenging.

    Yu-Gi-Oh!: Realms of Myth: In the world of monsters, Winda and Wynn go on an "epic" journey to find the legendary Dark Magician.

    Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Madoka and Kingdom Hearts.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Im not sure I agree. While they were certainly pretty much the entirety of the armies in the War of the Lance, it seems clear to me they were never meant to actually replace humans as the dominant race on Krynn, at least long term. Their method of creation simply isn't sustainable, and as soon as the current generation gets old and dies, the Takhisis-worshiping humans, goblins and ogres are going to be the ones managing the pieces (assuming they win). You'll note that once they lose the War of the Lance, the forces of darkness go right back on to using conventional armies, and Draconians become an unusual sight even in the military.

    Fodder may have been the wrong word, but they were definitely disposable.
    Spoiler
    Show
    How long do draconians live though? Given that they are part-dragon the current generation could effectively rule for centuries (or even millenia) which would give them plenty of time to find a way to sustain their population.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    I liked the Kang's Regiment stories also though I felt that the idea that the draconians were being treated as cannon fodder by the evil races was a bit of a retcon that didn't really fit with how the draconians were portrayed in the earlier novels.

    Spoiler
    Show
    After all in the Chronicles and Legends we seem a number of draconians in positions of trust and authority throughout the Dragonarmies (Gakhan is the most obvious example, but there was also a draconian wizard in charge of the flying citadel in Test of the Twins, a draconian acting as the Red Dragonarmy's emissary in Tarsis in Dragons of Winter Night, and later in this novel we see a draconian plotting with Ember to go around Verminaard's back.) Indeed there is kind of an undercurrent throughout the Chronicles that the chromatic dragons (backed by the draconians) are the ones truly running the Dragonarmies, and the Dragon Highlords are puppets that will be discarded when they are no longer useful.
    Spoiler
    Show
    All of those are servants though and limited authority. Like, Gakhan's authority is basically because he's Kit's personal boogeyman, the Draconian Wizard flying the citadel is basically a pilot with that the authority that implies. The Emissary was a messenger, and the draconian with Ember was well, working for Ember.

    None of them were in charge, or held any power that wasn't directly derived from a human or dragon. Also Kit was noted for being basically the best general and didn't have any hangups about Draconians, so she likely treated them a lot better and gave them more authority. And she's two of your examples.


    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    How long do draconians live though? Given that they are part-dragon the current generation could effectively rule for centuries (or even millenia) which would give them plenty of time to find a way to sustain their population.
    Spoiler: War of Souls Spoilers I suppose
    Show
    Draconians live long enough to outlive humans. Caramon dies of old age, and lived a long life, while Draconians were still in fighting condition at the time. They do show signs of ageing though. So they are likely around a Dwarf's lifespan, 150+ years, maybe a bit longer.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  28. - Top - End - #58
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    All of those are servants though and limited authority. Like, Gakhan's authority is basically because he's Kit's personal boogeyman, the Draconian Wizard flying the citadel is basically a pilot with that the authority that implies. The Emissary was a messenger, and the draconian with Ember was well, working for Ember.

    None of them were in charge, or held any power that wasn't directly derived from a human or dragon.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Yes, Gakhan was ultimately a subordinate of Kitiara, but within the Dragonarmy command structure he still clearly held considerable authority and influence. (He was after all able to assault the Captain of the Guard of Neraka without fear of any consequence.)

    And the Wind Captain seemed to be in charge of the flying citadel which is a command position. (His position would seem to be somewhat akin to the Commanding Officer of an aircraft carrier. Subordinate to the battle group commander (in his case Kitiara), but still an important commander in his own right.)

    Anyway, even if those draconians were not in charge they all held important assignments which necessarily involved considerable individual initiative, so draconians were clearly being treated as much more than just disposable cannon fodder.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Also Kit was noted for being basically the best general and didn't have any hangups about Draconians, so she likely treated them a lot better and gave them more authority. And she's two of your examples.
    Spoiler: The Lost Chronicles
    Show
    In the Lost Chronicles at least Kitiara was derogatory about draconians' mental ability and advised Ariakas against making the bozak draconian Grag a Dragon Highlord. (Though in truth I thought that seemed out of character for Kitiara given how heavily she replied upon Gakhan.)

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Yes, Gakhan was ultimately a subordinate of Kitiara, but within the Dragonarmy command structure he still clearly held considerable authority and influence. (He was after all able to assault the Captain of the Guard of Neraka without fear of any consequence.)

    And the Wind Captain seemed to be in charge of the flying citadel which is a command position. (His position would seem to be somewhat akin to the Commanding Officer of an aircraft carrier. Subordinate to the battle group commander (in his case Kitiara), but still an important commander in his own right.)

    Anyway, even if those draconians were not in charge they all held important assignments which necessarily involved considerable individual initiative, so draconians were clearly being treated as much more than just disposable cannon fodder.




    Spoiler: The Lost Chronicles
    Show
    In the Lost Chronicles at least Kitiara was derogatory about draconians' mental ability and advised Ariakas against making the bozak draconian Grag a Dragon Highlord. (Though in truth I thought that seemed out of character for Kitiara given how heavily she replied upon Gakhan.)
    Spoiler: Draconians
    Show
    He was basically her personal assistant and acted with her authority, because everything he did was directly ordered by Kit. And she trusted him enough to allow him to use his own iniative to solve problems.

    The Wind Captain was in charge of the reserves left aboard the citadel. The majority of draconians were deployed to attack the city. And the whole thing was a bit of a suicide mission considering it was an all or nothing attempt to stop Raistlin from returning from the Abyss. Which notably didn't have any humans in it.

    I will admit that cannon fodder is a bit of a hyperbole, but it's close enough I feel. They were expected to conquer the world, and hopefully die off doing so. As such, yeah, they had some military authority to help in conquering the world, but that's as far as it went.


    Spoiler: The Lost Chronicles
    Show
    I'm willing to put that down to character development, since in the same book Kit met with Grag and told him that she'd set Fewmaster Toede up as a figurehead and have him be actually in charge.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  30. - Top - End - #60
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Spoiler: Lost Chronicles
    Show
    I think its more likely that Kit did recognize Grag's skills and ability, and didn't want him to become a direct rival, so she lied about her impression of him. Then she spins it to Grag like she's doing him a favor, so she creates something of a debt he owes her, as well as giving her some leverage.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •