The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 6 of 23 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 180 of 680
  1. - Top - End - #151
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Spoiler
    Show
    As far as Goldmoon goes, I think the reason she gets phased out is because she really isn't an adventure character. She's the team mom that hangs out at home and gives them band-aids when they scrape their knees and cooks them a good hearty supper when they come in from playing, not one of the kids out there actively getting involved. And she prefers it that way. The role of battle-priests in Dragonlance tend to go to the Knights of Solamnia (though theyre somewhat inconsistent about whether they actually get any spells from this) rather than the clerics, who are closer to temple minders and civilian leaders.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by RossN View Post
    Just caught up with this wonderful thread today. I was a huge Dragonlance fan in my teens and still have a lot of fondness for Krynn and her inhabitants so it is wonderful to rediscover them.

    I really enjoyed the introduction of Khisanth and that it is immediately clear she is a character rather than a monster, which firmly establishes that the dragons of Krynn are essentially beings with personalities rather than unthinking engines of war. Not that Khisanth is a particularly likeable 'person' of course, but she makes a vivid impression. I'm also delighted by the notion that even evil dragons are strangely beautiful and graceful as well as terrifying. While she is depicted as far too small I like the Larry Elmore take on her look.
    Glad you're enjoying it! There's something rather like coming home about Dragonlance to me; it's so familiar it's passed into the realm of completely soothing.

    The well thing is sort of goofy. It almost seems like the setup is that she's supposed to basically break through the ground as she forces herself through the too-small well, given how everything's described as shaking. And then that doesn't happen.


    Onwards with the reread!

    A bitter choice. The greatest gift

    Tanis looks at Raistlin, whose face is utterly devoid of feeling. This fills Tanis with sudden rage that Raistlin can seemingly escape the pain of Riverwind's dying. Sturm points out that they should really move, since the dragon might come back, so Tanis tells the others to bring Riverwind on a blanket, while he goes to speak to Goldmoon.

    Tanis approaches the temple, with its huge golden doors, as behind him the others put Riverwind onto an improvised stretcher made out of blankets and branches. Tanis tells Goldmoon that Riverwind is dying, beyond the power of the staff to heal, but Goldmoon, looking at peace and transcendent, tells him to bring Riverwind and enter the temple.

    When she entered the courtyard, Goldmoon immediately followed a powerful urge to go to the temple, and so did not see the dragon attack, or what happened to Riverwind. When she reached the door, she hears her mother's voice, telling her to enter the temple. Goldmoon's mother, Tearsong, died when she was very young.

    Her mother's voice goes on to tell her that although her life has been hard until now, it will only grow darker. In that darkness the truth will light her path, but its light will be dim. Without that truth, all will be lost. Inside the temple are the answers she seeks. Goldmoon turns and sees the ground shaking as Khisanth approaches, sees Riverwind stumble, and is torn between aiding her friends and entering the temple. Nobody tells her what to do.

    Goldmoon reflects bitterly on the injustice of this. All she wanted was to love Riverwind, and he might be killed without her aid. Already she has sacrificed years of her life; at 30 she's childless, her people are dead, and what is there to show for it? Then she calms herself, recalling that Riverwind spent years searching for the staff. She must be willing to live for her faith, since he is willing to die for his.

    Making up her mind, praying that if Riverwind dies without her, he understands she will continue his quest, she steps into the temple. The doors close behind her as the dragon emerges.

    Inside the temple Goldmoon can't see anything at first, but is comforted by the memory of being held by her mother as a small girl. Her surroundings grow lighter; revealing a high, domed ceiling and before her a statue of a beautiful woman, wearing an expression combining both great hope and great sadness.

    Tearsong's voice explains that the statue is of Mishakal, the goddess of healing, and that she should listen to the goddess. Goldmoon is struck by the beauty of the statue, though it seems to be missing something. The woman seems like she should be holding something, something like a staff. Instinctively, Goldmoon places her staff in the statue's hands. The staff begins to glow blinding blue, and Goldmoon falls to her knees. Mishakal tells her not to be ashamed of her questioning, since it led her to the true gods. The gods did not abandon humanity after the Cataclysm, but the other way around. Now, the gods of evil have returned, and the balance of the world must be restored. The Dark Queen has returned, with the long-banished dragons. The only way to defeat them is to the "greatest gift" they were promised, the truth of the gods. In order to call upon the power of Mishakal, they must venture into the ruined city below, and retrieve the platinum Disks of Mishakal. But to obtain the disks, they must defeat Khisanth, the black dragon. Mishakal therefore blesses the staff, and tells Goldmoon that if she presents it without hesitation, they may obtain victory.


    Mishakal, with her favorite walking stick. She certainly sticks to her color theme.

    Mishakal stops speaking just as Riverwind screams.


    Tanis enters the temple and feels as if he has stepped backwards into his own memories of Qualinesti, to a rare happy day in his childhoon when he played with Gilthanas and Laurana. He asks Goldmoon about the temple, but she says that story must wait, and points to the statue with the glowing blue staff. But at that moment Sturm and Caramon enter, carrying Riverwind's ruined body, wrapped in blankets and escorted by Tas and Flint. Behind them walks Raistlin, looking like death itself.

    Goldmoon tells them to remove the bloody blanket, and is overcome with horror at what has been done to Riverwind. But she is made of stern stuff, steadies herself, and takes the blue crystal staff from the statue. Speaking softly, she touches the dying Riverwind, who turns sightlessly towards her voice, and tries to move one mutilated hand before going still. Cheeks wet with tears, Goldmoon lays the staff across Riverwind's body, and the room is filled with gentle blue light. Everyone it touches feels refreshed and cleansed, the horror of the dragon's attack lifting away.


    The statue being all glowy, although it should really have the staff. Yes, this is from the movie. This also makes the movie look about 1000% better than it is. Please don't make me watch it.

    Then the light fades, and as Tanis blinks in the darkness, he hears Riverwind's voice, "My beloved". Tanis looks down to see a whole, unharmed Riverwind embracing Goldmoon.

    Over a minimal sort of supper Goldmoon explains about needing to get the Disks from the ruined city below. Most of the companions mull this over, but Tas pokes around the temple, and finds a very old, very well made helmet. He's not particularly interested in helmets, but Flint, who has been wearing a draconian helmet he swiped from the camp, decides it must be made by dwarves (it's well made after all) and switches out for it. Tanis points out that it has a horsehair tassle, but Flint declares that is nonsense, since he isn't sneezing. It must be from the mane of a griffon. Caramon starts to say that there aren't a griffons, but Raistlin interrupts to point out that there aren't supposed to be any dragons either.

    Sturm breaks the rather uncomfortable silence by saying they should really determine watches and get some sleep. Goldmoon says they don't need to set a watch here, not tonight. Tas agrees, saying they might as well trust the gods, having found them. Flint grumps that the dwarves never lost the gods, but Tanis argues that both the elves and the dwarves cry to the gods when something bad happens, but mostly treat them like the honored dead. Apparently he heard stories of Mishakal as a child, along with dragons; apparently their childhood stories have come back, whether for good or ill. Both the dragon and Riverwind's healing are miracles after all, one evil, one good. But Tanis still feels they should set a watch.

    Sturm, naturally, takes first watch. He nearly falls asleep in the peaceful temple, and is about to make himself walk for the remaining two hours in punishment, when he hears his mother's voice singing a wordless lullaby. He recalls fleeing Solamnia with her as a child, her rocking him in her arms, and he drifts off to sleep.

    Commentary
    This is pretty much Goldmoon's chapter. We finally figure out what the deal is with the staff, the old, true gods, and basically complete her major arc from questioning to certainty and faith. Note that previously the Forestmaster had told the companions they could sleep without setting a watch, but here Goldmoon steps into that role. Clearly she now has access to some degree of external knowledge. We also get the first really seriously flashy example of divine magic, aka Riverwind getting de-melted, and it's quite distinct from Raistlin's sleep spells and blasts of fire. It also works to sell the magic of the gods as a great gift indeed.

    There's a very interesting annotation in this chapter, explaining that Tearsong had previously appeared to Goldmoon, telling her to help Riverwind's search for the true gods. This really should be integrated into the chapter, since it substantially builds and deepens Goldmoon's sense of having sacrificed much for the search for the true gods. Otherwise it's just sort of Riverwind's thing, and she's along for the ride because she's in love with Riverwind. That said, the central dilemma, when she is at the door the temple, wrestling with entering, or helping Riverwind, is quite well done. We've already seen that Goldmoon will do much for answers - see walking right up to the creepy draconian clerics - but is also entirely committed to Riverwind. But of course the search for the gods is a huge part of Riverwind's character.

    Another thing that struck me is that Goldmoon, Sturm and Tanis all receive some sort of soothing childhood memory when they enter the temple, yet all are also tempered by tragedy. Both Sturm and Goldmoon's mothers died when they were young, and Tanis had a generally crap childhood due to being a half-elf raised in the elven royal court. It ties in well with the statue's expression being both hopeful and sad, and the central paradox of healing someone. It brings hope now, but of course they will eventually die.

    Also, the joke with the helmet tassel coming from the mane of a griffon is a good one. Griffons of course don't have manes. In an annotation, Margaret Weis says that the helmet is magical, and provides extra protection to dwarves. This turns out to be a pattern with various companions' items being secretly magical.
    Last edited by warty goblin; 2019-06-04 at 09:03 PM.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    It ties in well with the statue's expression being both hopeful and sad, and the central paradox of healing someone. It brings hope now, but of course they will eventually die.

    Also, the joke with the helmet tassel coming from the mane of a griffon is a good one. Griffons of course don't have manes. In an annotation, Margaret Weis says that the helmet is magical, and provides extra protection to dwarves. This turns out to be a pattern with various companions' items being secretly magical.
    I take the paradox in a different way. Healing someone is a great thing, but it requires someone to be hurt first. You bring hope to their future, but they are suffering now.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  4. - Top - End - #154
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Tanis enters the temple and feels as if he has stepped backwards into his own memories of Qualinesti, to a rare happy day in his childhoon when he played with Gilthanas and Laurana.
    I've long wondered if Mishakal sending Tanis a happy memory involving Laurana was her trying to subtly influence Tanis to pick Laurana.

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    RossN's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Glad you're enjoying it! There's something rather like coming home about Dragonlance to me; it's so familiar it's passed into the realm of completely soothing.

    The well thing is sort of goofy. It almost seems like the setup is that she's supposed to basically break through the ground as she forces herself through the too-small well, given how everything's described as shaking. And then that doesn't happen.
    Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

    Regarding the latest chapter, even if the D&D player in me would prefer more of an adventurer type priest than Goldmoon, I really like the encounter between goddess and mortal and the miraculous healing of Riverwind. I also loved the 'favorite walking stick' line.

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by RossN View Post
    I also loved the 'favorite walking stick' line.
    This made me immediately think of that scene in the Two Towers, Plus DM of the Rings, where Gandalf calls his staff a walking stick, and DM of the Rings the other players all refer to their weapons as walking sticks.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  7. - Top - End - #157
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    I've long wondered if Mishakal sending Tanis a happy memory involving Laurana was her trying to subtly influence Tanis to pick Laurana.
    Are you a moody half elf suffering from Unresolved Love Triangle Syndrome? Then choose Laurana, the only love interest endorsed by leading Good goddesses!

    Onwards to...
    17: The Paths of the Dead. Raistlin's new friends
    With a title like 'Raistlin's new friends' you know you're in for some form of weirdness...

    Tanis wakes up to the sound of Caramon dropping his breastplate. The companions are all checking weapons and armor, in preparation for their assault on the ruined city below. Tanis, being an elf and so reverent of all life, finds this an uncomfortable thought, particularly since there's a good chance one or more of his friends will die in the effort. Yesterday with Riverwind was bad enough.

    Everyone else is up, Flint is grumbling over the unpleasant smell left by some herbal concoction of Raistlin's. The wizard is going through his spellbook; Tanis wonders if any of it will be of use against a dragon. Given that dragons are supposed to be more powerful than all but the greatest spellcasters, Tanis doubts it, for all Raistlin's cleverness. But if everything goes according to plan, they'll just sneak in and steal the Disks, no dragon slaying required. Tanis figures this is very unlikely to actually happen, and starts to feel depressed.

    Caramon however is in fine spirits. Armored up, he seems to view the dragon as a mild inconvenience. Sturm is off by himself, doing whatever mental preparations the Knights perform before combat. Riverwind and Goldmoon are ready to go as well; everyone's armed with a substantial variety of weaponry - Sturm is again described as having a two handed sword. Tas even has a dagger he 'acquired' somewhere, of which he is very proud, and therefore deeply hurt when Caramon tells him it'll be very useful, should they encounter any ferocious rabbits.


    Sturm, not carrying a two handed sword. No I will not shut up about this.

    They leave the chamber, Goldmoon silently touching the statue on her way out, and head off. Tas is up front, and absolutely giddy with excitement. He's going to get to see a dragon - can you imagine anything more wonderful? They head through some more golden doors, and past a very tall pedestal crusted in slime; Tas is disappointed that this makes it too slippery to climb, before coming to stairs winding down into the earth.

    Raistlin says that they are on the Paths of the Dead. Flint wants to know how he knows that, Raistlin responds he has read of the city. Sturm wants to know what else Raistlin knows that he's keeping hidden. Raistlin says quite a bit, since, unlike Sturm and his brother, he spent his youth reading. Sturm suggests that he wasn't reading anything good, and that he sacrificed his sould for power in the Towers of High Sorcery.

    Caramon says that he was there, and watched Raistlin's Test, where he bested powerful wizards with only simple spells, though it destroyed his health. He starts to say something else, but pauses, and Raistlin tells him to watch his tongue. Caramon goes on to say that they are not allowed to speak about what happened, but swears that Raistlin is as trustworthy as he is, going so far as to say that if Raistlin ever betrays them, "may my death - and his - not be far behind."

    Raistlin looks at Caramon seriously for a moment, and Tanis is struck by how similar the brothers appear for a moment. Then Raistlin's face slides back into its usual cynicism, the opposite of the open Caramon. Sturm apologizes to Raistlin with nearly good grace, saying he should be grateful for having a brother as loyal as Caramon. "Oh I am" Raistlin replies. Tanis wonders if he imagined the sarcasm.

    Raistlin says he could have guided them through the city before the Cataclysm, but when the fiery mountain fell, the city slid down the side of a cliff. The Paths of the Dead, where they are now, is still recognizable, but the rest may well not be. Before the Cataclysm, the stairs led to the Hall of Ancestors, where kings and priests were buried. Caramon says they should probably get a move on; Raistlin agrees, claiming that by the next day the city will be crawling with draconian armies. Sturm says Raistlin has no way of knowing that, but agrees they should move.

    They set off - Tas completely ignored the entire tense moment with Raistlin and Sturm, still wondering what was on top of the pedestal - and Tanis asks if Riverwind remembers anything about the city, since he was obviously here before. Riverwind says he only remembers the dragon. The dragon being, of course, their chief problem. And, as Tanis reflects, they're hardly the stuff of heroes, to kill a dragon, what with them bickering all the time. They may be chosen, but as Raistlin asks, who chose them, and for what purpose?

    They keep heading down the stairs, deeper underground. Gradually the tunnel is filled with a weak light, coming from an archway at the base of the stairs. Beyond the archway is an open area. They pause and listen closely, Tanis thinks he hears a cracking sound, and a sort of rumble in the ground, followed by a strange scraping, grating noise. Tas goes to scout ahead; there are holes in the floor and the entire place is in ruins. The thumping noise comes again, and Tas runs back to the others, just as a herd of about a dozen short, round figures runs past them, disappearing into the mist beyond. There's another sharp crack, then silence.

    Caramon opines that, unless they've come up with a short and fat sort, those weren't draconians. Tas gives them a rundown of the dungeon layout, and Flint says he smells something foul. Goldmoon thinks it smells like death, Flint thinks its worse than that - gully dwarf! He hauls out his axe, clearly preparing to go on a gully dwarf murdering rampage, but the others grab him. Tanis wants to know if Flint is sure they're gully dwarves, Flint says of course he's sure, since gully dwarves held him as a prisoner for three years. Tanis finds this surprising, Flint explains that this is why he never explained where he went for the last five years, but he's determined to kill every gully dwarf he can gets his hands on.


    Flint, held captive by gully dwarves, by Clyde Caldwell. That must have been a long three years.

    Sturm points out that gully dwarves aren't evil, so it's strange for them to be living with draconians. Raistlin suggests that the draconians are using them as slave labor. Tanis figures that - in spite of Flint's explosive protests - the gully dwarves might be useful, if they're enslaved. Flint is so offended by this notion he appears determined to go no farther, but Caramon suggests that without somebody like Flint to keep an eye on them, they'll be unable to keep the gully dwarves in line. This prickles Flint's need to look after the young 'uns, so to speak, so he keeps going.

    They companions keep going, again hearing the grinding noise, followed by the pattering of gully dwarf feet. As the gully dwarves pass, Caramon jumps out at them, but they just run around him. Goldmoon wonders if all the gully dwarves are so filthy and covered in sores, Flint says they all have "the brains of a doorknob" - later on doorknob is one of his favorite epithets for Tas.

    The party continues forwards, entering into the crypts, which are full of dripping water and broken sarcophagi. Down a corridor they see a long line of gully dwarves. Raistlin says they should let him investigate, Sturm insists they come too, in order to provide backup, or so he claims. Raistlin approaches the gully dwarves, produces a golden coin from his pouches, and starts to do magic tricks with it - street magic that is, not magic magic. This fascinates the gully dwarves.

    We then get a brief info-dump about gully dwarves; who generally live cheerfully in places so miserable even animals turn up their noses. Being dwarves, they are clannish, with three clans living in Xak Tsaroth at present, these clans being the Sluds, the Bulps and the Glups.

    Once the gully dwarves are fully captivated by Raistlin's coin tricks, he casts a spell from a magic scroll, which makes the gully dwarves regard him as a friend, or perhaps as an object of worship, since they are now fawning over him. Sturm is clearly disconcerted by this, since Raistlin could have done that to them at any point.

    Raistlin asks where the corridor leads. The gully dwarves immediately start arguing over this, and descend into a brawl. Before anybody can do anything about various gully dwarves kicking the crap out of each other over which way the corridor leads, a female gully dwarf, touting a large and important bag, bangs a few heads together, restoring order. Raistlin extends the spell of friendship to her, and she explains that the corridor leads to 'big bosses.' Raistlin asks how many, the ensourcelled gully dwarf counts off "one and one and one and one" and proudly concludes "two!" Sturm is not amused by this.

    Raistlin asks about the cracking noise, the gully dwarf explains that it's a whip, and the big bosses make the gully dwarves go down, so they can go up. They proceed down the corridor, the screeching sound starts up again, and the gully dwarves all stop and wait, saying it's not their turn. Raistlin asks what happens when it is their turn, the gully dwarf responds that they "go down." Raistlin finds out that the gully dwarf is named Bupu, and asks her where the dragon's lair is. Bupu wants to know if Raistlin wants the dragon, but he assures he just wants to know where the lair is. Bupu says she doesn't know, but the "great Highbulp" will know, naturally he is down from their current location.

    The whip cracks again, announcing its the gully dwarves' turn, for whatever it is they're taking turns doing. Raistlin tells them to wait, and goes to talk to the others. He thinks the Highbulp is probably a clan chief, and there's a good chance he does know where the dragon's lair is. Sturm is skeptical, given that the gully dwarves are none too bright, but Flint reluctantly agrees with Raistlin. Tanis says that going to see the Highbulp seems like the thing to do, but has no idea how to do that. Tas, who went ahead to scout, says he knows how.

    The draconians, Tas explains, have rigged up an elevator using two big lard rendering cauldrons connected by chain that passes over a gear. When they want to come up, they get in the bottom cauldron, and make a bunch of gully dwarves jump into the other cauldron so it sinks, making the one full of draconians rise. Tas, obviously, finds this whole setup just wonderful.

    Bupu assures Raistlin there are only two big bosses, i.e. draconians, but Tas says there are four. Caramon figures they can handle four, Tanis agrees, so long as they don't arrive just as a cauldron full of reinforcements comes up from below. The whip cracks again, and Bupu says they need to go before the bosses get angry. Sturm figures this is a good time to strike, since if one cauldron is up and empty, the other is down and full of draconians. If the gully dwarves don't jump in the cauldron, they'll be stuck below. Tanis agrees, and tells the gully dwarves not jump in the cauldron, but they don't listen. Raistlin, clearly enjoying this, repeats the instructions, and the bespelled gully dwarves instantly move to obey. Everybody sets off for the lifts.

    Commentary
    Now we're definitely feeling like a D&D tie in novel; this is a straight up dungeon crawl. It's hard to summarize well, but actually a pretty enjoyable read, and the next chapter is just great.

    Bupu, according to an annotation, was a spur-of-the-moment NPC made up by Tracy Hickman during the playtest, who sticks around becomes strangely important later on. Much later on.

    Character-wise we mostly get a retread of the Sturm-Raistlin-Caramon dynamic, where Sturm clearly thinks Raistlin is an untrustworthy evil bastard, and Caramon alternates somewhat unpredictably between at least implicit agreement and rushing to Raistlin's defense. There's also more dark hints about the Test, and something that they're not allowed to talk about.

    Also, gully dwarves. They're an example of the strangely bifurcated nature of Dragonlance; which is split between grim war stuff, a sort of dragon-heavy soap opera with all the feelz, and rather broad sketch comedy. This is the sketch comedy bit coming out in force. Basically gully dwarves are desperately stupid, incredibly filthy dwarves, who live anywhere, eat anything, and clearly exist as a humorous obstacle for a DM to throw at players as a break from stabbing things all the time. And yes, they really can't count past two. This is a bit like the rabbits in Watership Down, except where that was a rather clever piece of world-building around the limits of a rabbit that showed up nifty cultural ways, gully dwarves can't count because it's funny. Your mileage may vary substantially here, but I find them amusing enough, and they're not exactly a focus of the series.



    Spoiler: Future Stuff
    Show

    The bit they aren't allowed to talk about is that Raistlin, confronted with the illusion of Caramon doing magic, went a bit off the deep end with jealousy and killed him. The real Caramon saw this happens, and because Caramon has some real damage where Raistlin is concerned and possibly some sort of martyr complex, decided this was just a product of stress, and not a sign that at least a part of his brother wanted him dead, and become if anything even more loving and solicitous. You can imagine that this drives Raistlin nuts. There's also a marvelous bit of irony in Sturm wondering if Raistlin sold his soul in the Test, since Raistlin did in fact literally sell his soul during the Test. Or at least rented his soul out on a part-time basis. Sort of a soul AirBnB.

    Sturm is of course completely right; Raistlin is an untrustworthy evil bastard. You can tell because he constantly gives off untrustworthy evil bastard vibes and/or evil bastard monologues. Sturm is still sort of a jerk about this, but at some point a person's gonna stop being nice to his best friend's emotionally abuse brother, right?

    Also, Tas' knife is inevitably a stealth magic item. Tas also ends up using it to save the world. He then de-saves the world due to time travel, before, in the culmination of a character arc that spans like nine books and involves one of the more impressive bits of stone-cold courage you'll likely to encounter in fiction, re-saves it due to more time travel . The Dragonlance chronology is weird, since it's circular in some places for some characters but linear for others, since only some races can change time. Naturally kender are one of those races, a thought that should fill any sensible person with terror.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Spoiler: Future Stuff
    Show

    Also, Tas' knife is inevitably a stealth magic item. Tas also ends up using it to save the world. He then de-saves the world due to time travel, before, in the culmination of a character arc that spans like nine books and involves one of the more impressive bits of stone-cold courage you'll likely to encounter in fiction, re-saves it due to more time travel . The Dragonlance chronology is weird, since it's circular in some places for some characters but linear for others, since only some races can change time. Naturally kender are one of those races, a thought that should fill any sensible person with terror.
    Spoiler: Future Stuff
    Show
    What's this act of courage you're referring to?


    I enjoyed the gully dwarves. They're excellent comic relief and exposition sources, but not much else. Which is totally fine, given how they're used here.

    I personally like how Dragonlance seesaws between grim, dark war and comedy. It's very D&D and works decently well. After all, done well both war and comedy add meaning and depth to each other, rather than hinder one another.

  9. - Top - End - #159
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    I have mixed feelings about Gully Dwarves. On the one hand, I'm a sucker for slapstick so their antics can an amusing break from the action. And it's nice seeing a sub-species of dwarf that's so far removed from the Tolkienian standard. On the other hand, having their gimmick be universal stupidity doesn't really make a lot of sense on a world building level. They're kind of like kender: The fact they haven't gone extinct long ago is a miracle in itself.
    Plus, the way other dwarves tend to treat gully dwarves really makes you lose sympathy for them fast. Sure, Flint's dislike of them is understandable, if a tad on the psychotic side. Being held captive by morons for three years isn't going to do good things to your sense of self-esteem. But this attitude of contempt is actually pretty common, and the regular dwarves seem to think just existing is reason enough. I remember there's a point later in the series where a bunch of gully dwarves are used as cannon fodder in a battle by mountain dwarves. The gully dwarves were massacred (mostly by friendly fire), and no one cared. Something like that just strips away the comedy aspect.

  10. - Top - End - #160
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JadedDM's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Washington, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by NRSASD View Post
    Spoiler: Future Stuff
    Show
    What's this act of courage you're referring to?
    Spoiler
    Show
    He knowingly travels back in time so he can die the way history said he did, which is to be stepped on by Chaos.


    What spell does Raistlin cast on those gully dwarves? It sure sounds like Charm Person, but it affects a whole group and can be 'extended' to newcomers. Weirdly, Raistlin does know Charm Person already in the module, but here he casts it from a scroll. *shrugs*

    In my own Dragonlance games, I've re-flavored gully dwarves a bit. Instead of the reason behind their behavior being they are too stupid to know better, they just don't care. They have such a strong constitution that they can eat pretty much anything, even garbage or rotten food, and not get sick. So they live in filth because everyone will leave them alone and they can survive just fine. They can't count past two because they have no need of numbers due to their incredibly simple lifestyles. They get a huge bonus to CON and are immune to non-magical disease and poison. So more hardcore survivalists instead of a race of morons.

  11. - Top - End - #161
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    What spell does Raistlin cast on those gully dwarves? It sure sounds like Charm Person, but it affects a whole group and can be 'extended' to newcomers. Weirdly, Raistlin does know Charm Person already in the module, but here he casts it from a scroll. *shrugs*
    This is 1st Ed so I think it would be friends, which iirc, effectively raises your charisma for a group of people - not as powerful as a charm person effect, but it is multi-target.

    I'm another person who read the original novels in the 80s (and 90s?) - mainly from the library, I then read some of the follow on books before losing touch with them, but I am enjoying this thread because I find I remember virtually none of the actual plot! - Bits come back when I read the summaries, but not before.

    Also, for those of you who have read all the books - how many of you read the Tasselhof short story that was publsihed in Dragon magazine? It involved Tasselhof finding a "cursed" ring that teleported him short distances, seemingly at random. Iirc it also involved Tasselhof discovering that kender ("immune" to fear) can be frightened if they encounter the wrong circumstances...

  12. - Top - End - #162
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Are you a moody half elf suffering from Unresolved Love Triangle Syndrome? Then choose Laurana, the only love interest endorsed by leading Good goddesses!
    Heh! I viewed it as more akin to when your mom knows a girl that would be perfect for you.

    "Remember that girl Laurana. Such a nice girl. And so pretty. You should run by her house some time, just to say hi."

    Once the gully dwarves are fully captivated by Raistlin's coin tricks, he casts a spell from a magic scroll, which makes the gully dwarves regard him as a friend, or perhaps as an object of worship, since they are now fawning over him. Sturm is clearly disconcerted by this, since Raistlin could have done that to them at any point.
    Should this count on the Raistlin being evil tracker since he just magically suborned these gully dwarves? (After all it's not as though the gully dwarves were attacking or threatening the party, so there really wasn't any kind of emergency situation here that might have otherwise justified using intrusive, mind altering magic on them.)

    Of course given that Flint not only made but was apparently ready to act on a vow to commit genocide, Raistlin doesn't even come off as the most evil party member in this chapter.
    Last edited by bguy; 2019-06-06 at 04:34 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #163
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Elvensilver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Southern Germany
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Oh dear, I like the chapters with Gully-dwarfs in them. I agree with Slayer Lord about them
    I have mixed feelings about Gully Dwarves. On the one hand, I'm a sucker for slapstick so their antics can an amusing break from the action. And it's nice seeing a sub-species of dwarf that's so far removed from the Tolkienian standard.
    -snip- there's a point later in the series where a bunch of gully dwarves are used as cannon fodder in a battle by mountain dwarves. The gully dwarves were massacred (mostly by friendly fire), and no one cared. Something like that just strips away the comedy aspect.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Even just some chapters down the line, probably hundreds or thousand of them die when Xak Xsarok is buried. We even see some draconians forcing some of them down the lift, so the dracaonians can escape...It's a sad ending for the Gully dwarfes and the nice life that they had down there.

    But as long as everything is going well, they are pure Dragonlance Comedy Gold, as well as quite likeable.

    I adore Bupu and her dynamics with Raistlin- they tend to bring out a whole other side of the evil mage, and I also really like her low sort of cunning, endurance, and resourcefullness.

    About Raistlin casting Friends or Charm Person on the Gully Dwarfs from a scroll- I think that's not weird at all. After all, he probably mainly prepared spells to fight Kisanth (or Sneak in her lair) that day. By the way, did Wizards in 1. Edition get Scribe Scroll or anything similar?
    Avatar made bei linklele!

    Currently playing:
    Gardin Farawyn Saskeon of Efteria, Elven Bard und Oracle
    Faire Camoretta, Halfling Monk.

  14. - Top - End - #164
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    I think Gully Dwarves work well in this trilogy, because the authors know to use them to balance out the deadly seriousness of a likely suicidal charge on a dragon's lair, and to help show Raist's soft side. In later works, many authors don't do those, so you just end up with a bunch of idiot characters who are there because "lol stupid dwarves." and they grate a lot more on the story.

    Theres one trilogy in particular that has a gully dwarf as a PoV character, and its... really, really not great. Everything he accomplishes he does by accident.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  15. - Top - End - #165
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Should this count on the Raistlin being evil tracker since he just magically suborned these gully dwarves? (After all it's not as though the gully dwarves were attacking or threatening the party, so there really wasn't any kind of emergency situation here that might have otherwise justified using intrusive, mind altering magic on them.)

    Of course given that Flint not only made but was apparently ready to act on a vow to commit genocide, Raistlin doesn't even come off as the most evil party member in this chapter.
    He's attempting peaceful contact in a D&D era when murderhoboing was common and he really does act as a friend to Bupu. I'm willing to chalk this one up as neutral, especially since we don't hear any of the more good-aligned party members complaining about it, as they did in Darken Wood when he tried to communicate with the spectres there.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2019-06-06 at 10:28 AM.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  16. - Top - End - #166
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    RossN's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Caramon suggests that without somebody like Flint to keep an eye on them, they'll be unable to keep the gully dwarves in line.
    I kind of like the fact that Caramon is actually pretty smart in a low key way. Not a genius like Raistlin but sharper than average. In fact checking the modules he has an Intelligence of 12, smarter than Tashelhoff (9), Tika (also 9) and Flint (7) and equal to Tanis and Goldmoon.

    Of course not all of the game attributes seem to quite fit the novels - Flint seems definitely smarter than an Int of 7, and Riverwind doesn't strike me as a man with an Int of 13, a Wisdom of 14 and a Charisma of 13! Likewise our favourite sickly wizard has a Constitution of 10.

    ~~~~

    I liked Raistlin's scene with the Gully Dwarves. I'm with pendell here on it feeling less evil.

  17. - Top - End - #167
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think Gully Dwarves work well in this trilogy, because the authors know to use them to balance out the deadly seriousness of a likely suicidal charge on a dragon's lair, and to help show Raist's soft side. In later works, many authors don't do those, so you just end up with a bunch of idiot characters who are there because "lol stupid dwarves." and they grate a lot more on the story.

    Theres one trilogy in particular that has a gully dwarf as a PoV character, and its... really, really not great. Everything he accomplishes he does by accident.
    I seem to remember one story where the villain was raising a girl in total isolation to keep her "innocent" so that he could get some demon or other to provide a wish. The idea was she'd be completely under his thumb and wish as he commanded, but the wish wouldn't work unless the person making it was 100% innocent and pure. The plan is eventually foiled when a gully dwarf winds up fulfilling the conditions entirely by accident (innocent by virtue of "too dumb to know better") and wishes for something benign instead.

    ...Come to think of it, a lot of the Dragonlance books were really freaking weird. At least, the ones that were not the main trilogies and which pre-date Dragons of Summer Flame. I don't think I ever read past that since Summer Flame was such a letdown. Still remember enjoying most of them though. I think the only one I didn't finish was one about Takhisis. They mostly didn't leave that much impact on me as I can't remember almost any of them. Same thing for all the Star Trek EU novels I was reading during the same period - there were a few really good ones and a few really BAD ones that I remember, but the rest just sort of blur together.

  18. - Top - End - #168
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Question Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Spoiler: future stuff
    Show
    Caramon being smarter than he gives himself credit for is a major plot point of the Legends Trilogy. He, and others, just think he's stupid because they unconsciously compare him with Raistlin
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-06-06 at 11:50 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #169
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Spoiler: future stuff
    Show
    Caramon being smarter than he gives himself credit for is a major plot point of the Legends Trilogy. He, and others, just think he's stupid because they unconsciously compare him with Raistlin
    Spoiler
    Show
    That comes up in Dragons of the Dwarven Depths too. Caramon mostly just keeps his mouth shut because he is self conscious. He isn't stupid, and indeed spends a lot of time considering things from many different angles, which is why he appears slow sometimes.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  20. - Top - End - #170
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by RossN View Post
    I kind of like the fact that Caramon is actually pretty smart in a low key way. Not a genius like Raistlin but sharper than average. In fact checking the modules he has an Intelligence of 12, smarter than Tashelhoff (9), Tika (also 9) and Flint (7) and equal to Tanis and Goldmoon.

    Of course not all of the game attributes seem to quite fit the novels - Flint seems definitely smarter than an Int of 7, and Riverwind doesn't strike me as a man with an Int of 13, a Wisdom of 14 and a Charisma of 13! Likewise our favourite sickly wizard has a Constitution of 10.

    ~~~~

    I liked Raistlin's scene with the Gully Dwarves. I'm with pendell here on it feeling less evil.
    I feel that it happens because Caramon is big and strong, because he takes a back seat to his brother in decision making most of the time, because his brother is a blind spot he actively fails to use his perfectly good brain to assess clearly, and because he's a pretty cheerful and guileless guy most of the time.

    People think big guys are dumb, they think overly-friendly/happy guys are dumb, and they also tend to think less of people in abusive relationships who stick around despite the abuse. All that adds up to people underestimating him on the basis of their own bias.

  21. - Top - End - #171
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    He's attempting peaceful contact in a D&D era when murderhoboing was common
    Is magically compelling someone to like you really "peaceful contact" though? If Raistlin cast a Friends spell on an attractive young woman in a tavern to compel her to like him there would be no question that he had committed a monstrous violation against that woman, so how is doing the same thing to gully dwarves any better? He isn't brutal to the gully dwarves after he has magically influenced them (and that means his kilonazi score for the act is certainly going to be a lot lower than if he had brutalized the gully dwarves after enchanting them), but enchanting them is itself still an assault.

    and he really does act as a friend to Bupu.
    Does he?

    Spoiler: Raistlin's interactions with Bupu
    Show
    While Bupu is under the effect of Raistlin's charm spell she gives up her emerald (her most valuable possession) to Raistlin meaning that Raistlin effectively robs her. Raistlin also gets her to go into a dragon's lair with him (putting her in extreme danger). Stealing from a person and endangering their life while they are in an impaired mental state (that you caused) is hardly being a friend to that person.


    I'm willing to chalk this one up as neutral, especially since we don't hear any of the more good-aligned party members complaining about it, as they did in Darken Wood when he tried to communicate with the spectres there.
    Yeah, the good-aligned members in the party didn't exactly cover themselves in glory in this chapter.

  22. - Top - End - #172
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Is magically compelling someone to like you really "peaceful contact" though? If Raistlin cast a Friends spell on an attractive young woman in a tavern to compel her to like him there would be no question that he had committed a monstrous violation against that woman, so how is doing the same thing to gully dwarves any better? He isn't brutal to the gully dwarves after he has magically influenced them (and that means his kilonazi score for the act is certainly going to be a lot lower than if he had brutalized the gully dwarves after enchanting them), but enchanting them is itself still an assault.



    Does he?

    Spoiler: Raistlin's interactions with Bupu
    Show
    While Bupu is under the effect of Raistlin's charm spell she gives up her emerald (her most valuable possession) to Raistlin meaning that Raistlin effectively robs her. Raistlin also gets her to go into a dragon's lair with him (putting her in extreme danger). Stealing from a person and endangering their life while they are in an impaired mental state (that you caused) is hardly being a friend to that person.




    Yeah, the good-aligned members in the party didn't exactly cover themselves in glory in this chapter.
    That's a bad analogy. Bupu doesn't care about the things she gives to Raist at all (which is why she gives them to him) and goes into the dragon's lair on her own all the time anyway. He's not forcing her to do anything, she's just treating him as a friend.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  23. - Top - End - #173
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That's a bad analogy. Bupu doesn't care about the things she gives to Raist at all (which is why she gives them to him) and goes into the dragon's lair on her own all the time anyway. He's not forcing her to do anything, she's just treating him as a friend.
    Spoiler
    Show
    She went to the trouble to steal the emerald (at considerable risk to her personal safety) and then held onto it, so it's hard to believe she didn't care about it. (People usually aren't going to carry on their person items they don't value.)

    As for going into the dragon's lair, it's one thing to sneak into the lair by yourself, it's quite another to lead a large group of people into the lair. (More people makes it much more likely that you will get caught.) Thus I don't think you can conclude that just because Bupu was willing to sneak into the dragon's lair by herself that she would have been ok with participating in a multi-person raid on the lair if she had had free will.

    And anyway, violating another person's autonomy does not suddenly become ok simply because the thing you do to them is something that they might have been ok with if you had asked first. Maybe Bupu would have been ok with giving Raistlin the emerald and participating in the raid on the lair if she had been given the choice, but Raistlin didn't give her the opportunity to make that choice. He just took advantage of her being in a highly suggestible state where she would do almost anything he wanted which is hardly acting a friend.

  24. - Top - End - #174
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That's a bad analogy. Bupu doesn't care about the things she gives to Raist at all (which is why she gives them to him) and goes into the dragon's lair on her own all the time anyway. He's not forcing her to do anything, she's just treating him as a friend.
    Is the friends spell This one ?

    Enchantment

    Level: Cantrip
    Casting time: 1 Action
    Range: Self
    Components: S, M (a small amount of makeup applied to the face as this spell is cast)
    Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
    For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature realizes that you used magic to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you. A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it.
    "Gaining advantage on charisma checks" doesn't sound like it's in anywhere near the same league as Dominate Person. And yes, if Raistlin had used Dominate Person or something similar to acquire sexual favors that would be unquestionably wrong and an evil action. He's not doing that. He's using the spell to keep his adventuring party alive in a hostile dungeon. That's a different kettle of fish entirely. It's the difference between stabbing a wandering monster with a sword and stabbing a civilian in the city street with the sword. The first is a battlefield-type situation in which life and limb are at risk. The second is a situation where all parties are at peace; resort to weapons or magic is uncalled for and unjustified.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  25. - Top - End - #175
    Banned
     
    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lake Wobegon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Is the friends spell This one ?
    I don't think so - that doesn't look like a 1E spell to me, and in particular the mention of "advantage" brings to mind 5E. I think it's this:

    Friends (Enchantment/Charm)
    Level: 1 Components: V, S, M Range: 0 Casting Time: 1 segment Duration: 1 round / level Saving Throw: Special Area of Effect: 1" + 1" / level of spell caster radius sphere
    Explanation/Description: A Friends spell causes the magic-user to gain a temporary increase of 2-8 points in charisma - or a temporary lowering of charisma by 1-4 points - depending on whether creatures within the area of effect of the spell make - or fail - their saving throw versus magic. Those that fail their saving throw will be very impressed with the spell caster and desire greatly to be his or her friend and help. Those that do not fail will be uneasy in the spell caster's presence and tend to find him or her irritating. Note that this spell has absolutely no effect on creatures of animal intelligence or lower. The components for this spell are chalk (or white flour), lampblack (or soot), and vermilion applied to the face before casting the spell.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-06-06 at 05:12 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #176
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    She went to the trouble to steal the emerald (at considerable risk to her personal safety) and then held onto it, so it's hard to believe she didn't care about it. (People usually aren't going to carry on their person items they don't value.)

    As for going into the dragon's lair, it's one thing to sneak into the lair by yourself, it's quite another to lead a large group of people into the lair. (More people makes it much more likely that you will get caught.) Thus I don't think you can conclude that just because Bupu was willing to sneak into the dragon's lair by herself that she would have been ok with participating in a multi-person raid on the lair if she had had free will.

    And anyway, violating another person's autonomy does not suddenly become ok simply because the thing you do to them is something that they might have been ok with if you had asked first. Maybe Bupu would have been ok with giving Raistlin the emerald and participating in the raid on the lair if she had been given the choice, but Raistlin didn't give her the opportunity to make that choice. He just took advantage of her being in a highly suggestible state where she would do almost anything he wanted which is hardly acting a friend.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Youre either misremembering or misreading what is going on. The plan wasn't for Bupu to sneak into the lair with the party, but show them where the secret entrance was while Raist caused a distraction. Bupu wasn't intended to be anywhere near the danger, except things went horribly wrong (as they do in a dungeon crawl). Beyond which, the spell doesn't take away free will. Youre confusing it with Dominate Person. The spell simply causes the caster to be viewed as a friend, in a favorable light. Everything she did, she did of her own will for somebody she liked. Raist didn't force her to do anything, magically or otherwise, that she wasn't already willing to do.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-06-06 at 05:12 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  27. - Top - End - #177
    Banned
     
    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lake Wobegon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Youre either misremembering or misreading what is going on. The plan wasn't for Bupu to sneak into the lair with the party, but show them where the secret entrance was while Raist caused a distraction. Bupu wasn't intended to be anywhere near the danger, except things went horribly wrong (as they do in a dungeon crawl). Beyond which, the spell doesn't take away free will. Youre confusing it with Dominate Person. The spell simply causes the caster to be viewed as a friend, in a favorable light. Everything she did, she did of her own will for somebody she liked. Raist didn't force her to do anything, magically or otherwise, that she wasn't already willing to do.
    I believe the argument that using magic to cause someone to view you as a friend is bad in the same way, if not necessarily to the same degree, as taking away someone's free will. I would extend it further - that any affirmative action you take to cause someone to view someone as a friend (i.e., giving compliments, doing favors, etc.) is bad in the same way and to the same degree as using magic to cause someone to view you as a friend.

    This is an extremely individualistic philosophy that is out of step with how most people live.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-06-06 at 05:20 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell
    He's using the spell to keep his adventuring party alive in a hostile dungeon. That's a different kettle of fish entirely. It's the difference between stabbing a wandering monster with a sword and stabbing a civilian in the city street with the sword. The first is a battlefield-type situation in which life and limb are at risk. The second is a situation where all parties are at peace; resort to weapons or magic is uncalled for and unjustified.
    The party wasn't in any immediate danger when Raistlin cast that spell. Nor had they even tried regular diplomacy. (Which might well have worked. Raistlin was doing pretty well impressing the gully dwarves with his sleight of hands tricks before he broke out the enchantment magic, so it's perfectly possible he could have won over the gully dwarves without the use of actual magic.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Youre either misremembering or misreading what is going on. The plan wasn't for Bupu to sneak into the lair with the party, but show them where the secret entrance was while Raist caused a distraction. Bupu wasn't intended to be anywhere near the danger, except things went horribly wrong (as they do in a dungeon crawl).
    Spoiler
    Show
    Fair enough. I just reread that part of the book, and you are correct that Bupu wasn't supposed to actually sneak into the lair with the party. Still, the plan was for Bupu to be with Raistlin while he caused a distraction (which was intended to get the attention of the dragon.) Being with someone who is trying to provoke a dragon is perhaps not quite as bad as outright sneaking into the dragon's lair, but it's still a really dangerous mission, and thus not the kind of thing that it is fair to ask someone to do after you have magically compelled them to adore you.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Beyond which, the spell doesn't take away free will. Youre confusing it with Dominate Person. The spell simply causes the caster to be viewed as a friend, in a favorable light. Everything she did, she did of her own will for somebody she liked.
    Spoiler
    Show
    And you don't think that magically rewriting someone's brain so that they see you as a friend is a massive subversion of their free will? Look at it this way, if someone slipped you a drug that made you think of them as your best friend, and while under the influence of that drug you gave them your most valuable possession and risked your life for them, are you really telling me you would not feel that you were horribly taken advantage of by them once the drug wore off? And that's what a charm spell is. No, it doesn't fully obliterate free will. (Even the Dominate spells can't do that.) But it definitely subverts free will by magically changing your feelings for another person.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Raist didn't force her to do anything, magically or otherwise, that she wasn't already willing to do.
    Spoiler
    Show
    He forced her to see him as a friend. Everything else flowed from that initial violation.


    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915
    I believe the argument that using magic to cause someone to view you as a friend is bad in the same way, if not necessarily to the same degree, as taking away someone's free will. I would extend it further - that any affirmative action you take to cause someone to view someone as a friend (i.e., giving compliments, doing favors, etc.) is bad in the same way and to the same degree as using magic to cause someone to view you as a friend.
    I guess that would be the difference between the Friendship spell (which as you described it seems to just temporarily raise a person's charisma) and a Charm Person spell (which is a direct mental subversion of another person.) The former could certainly be viewed as deceptive (since it is creating a false impression of the spell caster), but it still seems much less invasive than the later (which is directly mind-altering.)

  29. - Top - End - #179
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    The party wasn't in any immediate danger when Raistlin cast that spell. Nor had they even tried regular diplomacy. (Which might well have worked. Raistlin was doing pretty well impressing the gully dwarves with his sleight of hands tricks before he broke out the enchantment magic, so it's perfectly possible he could have won over the gully dwarves without the use of actual magic.)



    Spoiler
    Show
    Fair enough. I just reread that part of the book, and you are correct that Bupu wasn't supposed to actually sneak into the lair with the party. Still, the plan was for Bupu to be with Raistlin while he caused a distraction (which was intended to get the attention of the dragon.) Being with someone who is trying to provoke a dragon is perhaps not quite as bad as outright sneaking into the dragon's lair, but it's still a really dangerous mission, and thus not the kind of thing that it is fair to ask someone to do after you have magically compelled them to adore you.




    Spoiler
    Show
    And you don't think that magically rewriting someone's brain so that they see you as a friend is a massive subversion of their free will? Look at it this way, if someone slipped you a drug that made you think of them as your best friend, and while under the influence of that drug you gave them your most valuable possession and risked your life for them, are you really telling me you would not feel that you were horribly taken advantage of by them once the drug wore off? And that's what a charm spell is. No, it doesn't fully obliterate free will. (Even the Dominate spells can't do that.) But it definitely subverts free will by magically changing your feelings for another person.




    Spoiler
    Show
    He forced her to see him as a friend. Everything else flowed from that initial violation.




    I guess that would be the difference between the Friendship spell (which as you described it seems to just temporarily raise a person's charisma) and a Charm Person spell (which is a direct mental subversion of another person.) The former could certainly be viewed as deceptive (since it is creating a false impression of the spell caster), but it still seems much less invasive than the later (which is directly mind-altering.)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ok, so what? Do you think being lied to is a fundamental violation of your free will? Its not exactly a nice thing to do, but Bupu was completely within her right mind and was not being coerced to do anything she would have been unwilling to do. If at any point she was legitimately uncomfortable with that the group was trying to do, she could have said no and backed off.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Banned
     
    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lake Wobegon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ok, so what? Do you think being lied to is a fundamental violation of your free will? Its not exactly a nice thing to do, but Bupu was completely within her right mind and was not being coerced to do anything she would have been unwilling to do. If at any point she was legitimately uncomfortable with that the group was trying to do, she could have said no and backed off.
    Putting the onus on the victim, are we?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •