The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    With respect to Raistlin, telling Caramon it was a stupid idea to try to attack the dragon head-on was reasonable. The fact that he did it in as biting and sarcastic a way as possible -- well, he didn't need to do that or say it that way. That's why he's a jerk. He could have said

    "No, Caramon. That's a terrible idea. We can't do anything about her magic or her flight or her armor. Don't even think about this. "

    But he didn't ... because IMO they have an abusive/co-dependent relationship. Raistlin resents being the weaker person who has to be cared for by his stronger brother, so he never misses an opportunity to belittle Caramon, to lift himself up by tearing Caramon down. And Caramon, being codependent, simply takes it because he thinks its the right thing to do. He tolerates Raistlin's nastiness and won't stand up for himself.

    I dunno about good or evil, but it's certainly not healthy.

    About the only advantage to that for the company's sake is that Raistlin has become the designated jerk. He will always say the brutal truth or the cold truth in the most unambiguous way possible, and that leaves everyone else free to be "nice", since they've delegated the job of Bad Cop / Third Hat* to Raistlin.


    Spoiler: Third Hat
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    I'm given to understand that in basic training in the 80s, there were three kinds of drill instructors. The first hat -- the person in charge -- usually would correct mistakes with a quiet word or two. If the recruit didn't listen the Second Hat would step in to put them through constant drilling and repetition to work the lesson in through muscle memory. And if THAT didn't work, the Third Hat would step in to try fear, humiliation, and intimidation. The classic DI of the movies. He would say all the vicious stuff so that the First Hat wouldn't have to.

    Raistlin is the team's Third Hat.



    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2019-06-12 at 07:53 AM.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    I second those that say that it is unnecessary to add to the Raistlin-was-horrible-to-Caramon-meter. What he says is true (fighting Kisanth is indeed a horrible, suicidal idea)
    and not even particulary scathing...
    "My dear brother, your strengh lies in your swordarm and not in your mind."
    Compared to, say, forcing him to touch the blue Crystal Staff that burned the goblins that touched it before, or completly disregarding that his brother thought him to be dead or dying and completly freaked out because of sheer grief- that was peanuts here. I'd say Riverwind was meaner to Goldmoon in this chapter than Raist to Caramon.
    Apart from that...Bupu+Raistlin continues to be a very nice dynamic, Gully Dwarfs are funny (seriously, try picturing their throne room), and Kisanth gets her act together a bit- she realizes that the comrades are after the disks and wants to get them to safety. I mean, it doesn't chalk over her glaring oversight of thinking them all to be dead after breathing at them once, but it shows her to be someone to be reckoned with.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
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    Yeah, I mean if he hadn't charmed the gully dwarves the party might have been betrayed and ended up ambushed by the dragon in a hopeless position where only a god could save them. No chance of that happening now. :)
    I was mostly thinking that they'd never have gotten to the lower levels without the charm spell. I mean the assault on the lift just went swimmingly.


    [QUOTE]
    In Tanis's defense, the Highbulp is arguably one of the more cunning and effective leaders we meet in the Chronicles.

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    Just compare him to leaders like Solostaran (who when faced with a genocidal threat tried to declare war on people who should have been his allies), Lorac (who destroyed his own country by using a magic item he didn't understand), Derek Crownguard (who led his army into a suicidal charge), and the Dragon Highlords (who destroyed their empire with their incessant infighting).

    Well yeah, but the elves are all handicapped by being elves, and therefore committed to being massive jerks above all other concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Or simply wants to eat them. K is a dragon, after all.
    And technically Goldmoon is a princess, so there you have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvensilver View Post
    I second those that say that it is unnecessary to add to the Raistlin-was-horrible-to-Caramon-meter. What he says is true (fighting Kisanth is indeed a horrible, suicidal idea)
    and not even particulary scathing...
    "My dear brother, your strengh lies in your swordarm and not in your mind."
    I mean I read it as more scathing, because I always read Raistlin as scathing. But noted, it will be removed.

    And now, on to

    20: The Highbulp's map. A spellbook of Fistandantilus
    Caramon says that they can't trust the Highbulp. Tanis agrees, but figures they've really got no choice at this point. Everybody's sitting around the Waiting Place, which is filthy, depressing, and just as alarmingly decorated at the throne room. Everybody's feeling glum, and trying to make themselves eat something. Except Raistlin, who just drank his unpleasant herbal cough remedy. Bupu is curled up lovingly next to him, eating something out of her bag; Caramon notes with horror that she sucks down the tail of... something. Probably not her magic rat or the lizard cure though.

    Riverwind is brooding silently, until Goldmoon comes over and tells him they have to talk. He asks if that is an order; she says it is. Riverwind gets up and walks away from her, staring at a tapestry instead. He's completely impassive, but Goldmoon can tell he's hurting. She asks him to forgive her.

    Riverwind turns around in surprise, to find Goldmoon looking small and ashamed. He goes over and holds her in his arms, telling her he's never heard her say she's sorry before, and smiling to himself, since she can't see him.

    Goldmoon says she's never said them before, but she's very sorry he left her as Goldmoon, and came back to Chieftain's daughter. Riverwind then says he should say he's sorry, because he never thought about what Goldmoon had to deal with when he was gone, only what he had to deal with, and admits he should have asked.

    Goldmoon says, basically, yes, he should have done that. But she's been Chieftain's Daughter so long she isn't sure she can stop, not when it's the source of her strength. Riverwind says he doesn't want her to stop, that he fell in love with Chieftain's Daughter, when he refused to bow to her at the games in her honor. Goldmoon says he did this because he refused to acknowledge that humans could make other humans into gods, and this is when she fell in love with him. But she still can't let go of Chieftain's Daughter, not until all this is over, and they can go somewhere peaceful.

    This tender moment is interrupted by the arrival of a gully dwarf with the Highbulp's map. Everybody looks at it, then Flint snorts in disgust. The map is useless, and they immediately conclude that not even the Highbulp can use it, since it references a 'big room' that nobody can find. If he could find it, he would have gone back for the treasure, after all. Raistlin however says that Bupu knows where the dragon's lair is.


    The Highbulp's map. GPS it ain't

    Bupu admits that she knows where the dragon is, but they can't tell the Highbulp. Bupu takes the map, and everyone gathers around, except Raistlin, who gestures for Caramon. Apparently the plan (that we still don't explicitly know) is unchanged, and Caramon still thinks he should be with Raistlin. Raistlin says he'll be perfectly safe, and Caramon would only get in the way. Anyways, he needs Caramon to get something for him from the dragon's hoard.

    Raistlin is clearly agitated, and Caramon sees something in his eyes that he hasn't seen since the Towers of High Sorcery. Raistlin wants him to retrieve a spellbook, Raistlin knows it was in the city, based on other books he read. It will be in the dragon's lair, since the dragon is a magic user, and the spellbook is the greatest treasure in the city to a magic user. The book looks like Raistlin's spellbook, but bound in dark blue leather with silver runes on the cover. Caramon wants to know what the runes say, but Raistlin says he really doesn't want to know that.

    Caramon asks who the book belonged to. Raistlin says it belonged to Fistandantilus, who was one of the most powerful of wizards. Caramon wants to know if Fistandantilus wore the Black Robes. Instead of answering that question, Raistlin rants for a bit about how nobody understands him, then apologizes, and explains that the book was from early in Fistandantilus' career, and not of great power, and it is of the utmost importance that Caramon fetch it. Then he breaks down coughing.

    Caramon says he'll get it, and Raistlin goes to rest.

    Caramon turns around, and nearly falls over the eavesdropping Bupu. Sturm asks what's up, Caramon, entirely unconvincingly, says he was just trying to talk Raistlin in letting him go with him. Tanis realizes that Caramon is lying, and figures that although Caramon would happily die for the companions, he'd also betray them in a heartbeat, if Raistlin asked. Deciding not to press the issue, Tanis says that Raistlin's right, and anyway, they need Caramon with them.

    Tanis asks if everybody's ready to go; they say they are. Tanis says they'll give Raistlin a count of 500, before starting. Apparently the map, once you know where the 'big room' is, shows a tunnel that starts near them, and comes up directly under the dragon's lair. Raistlin should create his diversion in the main plaza, then hide back among the gully dwarves. They'll meet back there, then escape at night.


    Raistlin and Bupu are about ready to sneak into position. Raistlin's drunk his herbal concoction, which should keep his cough at bay for at least a while. Apparently Par-Salian gave him the recipe, as a sort of apology for how totally the Test messed up his body. Bupu reports that the plaza is clear, and they head off across it. Raistlin thinks it very strange that all the gully dwarves have disappeared, but the others have already left, and there's nothing he can do now. He figures, with some sort of twisted amusement, that they're all going to die in this miserable city.

    As they head across the plaza, two armored figures sneak after them...



    Tanis and the others reach the first mark on the map, and head into a dark, fallen building. They light some torches, and head off, immediately finding themselves wading through ankle deep water. They find a trapdoor in the floor, under the water. Flint, figuring that if a gully dwarf can open it, gives the handle a mighty heave, but is unable to budge it. Tanis points out that Bupu only comes here in the dry season, when there isn't like four inches of water on top of the door. Flint lets Caramon give it a try; after considerabl effort he lifts the door. The water drains out through the trapdoor, revealing a narrow shaft, set with iron rungs leading down into darkness.

    Sturm says the count is now 403. Everyone waits uncomfortably, until the count finally reaches 500. Then Tas sets off down the ladder, followed by the others. The shaft opens into a tunnel, with about two feet of water running through it. They set off, Sturm wonders where the diversion is, Tanis reassures him - and tries to reassure himself - that they wouldn't hear it down here. Caramon assures the others that Raistlin won't let them down. Tas is alarmed to feel something swimming in the water.

    They follow the tunnel for a while, until they see light streaming through a shaft in the ceiling; this is the dragon's lair. They extinguish the torches, and everybody approaches as quietly as they can. Tas climbs the ladder, confident that he'll be able to open the grate at the top if it's locked; out of respect for the kender's lock-picking pride Tanis refrains from pointing out that Bupu opened it, so it's probably not all that, as locks go.

    Tas does indeed open the lock pretty much immediately. He lifts the grate quietly, and pokes his head out, when everything goes utterly dark. With considerable presence of mind, Tas quietly replaces the grate, then comes back down the ladder. Everybody else is in darkess too; not even Tanis' elven sight can see through it. It's just like by the well.

    They stand there, listening to the sound of dripping water and their nervous breathing. Above them the dragon is waiting.


    I was tempted to just post a black rectangle here, since the party is in complete darkness, but that would be lame and trolly. So instead here's the Matt Stawicki cover for Riverwind the Plainsman. I like this one a lot better than the Caldwell incarnation.

    Commentary
    Oh boy are they ever screwed at this point. Next chapter could get interesting. I really like the stopping place, just as they realize that the jig's up, and just how screwed they are.

    Character-wise we get more of Goldmoon and Riverwind's ongoing issues. Riverwind comes off slightly more human here, though his issue still seems pretty ill-defined to me. It's not like in general Goldmoon bosses him around or treats him badly; if anything he's much ruder to her than the other way around. Certainly it's hard to see that she's done anything that requires asking for forgiveness, while after last chapter he should expect to be sleeping on the metaphorical couch for like a month. But we do get some more of their backstory, complete with a meet-cute where he refuses to worship her and she falls for him because of it.

    I sort of wish there was either less Goldmoon and Riverwind relationship drama, or more of it. What there is isn't bad, but it's also not developed enough to really stick with you. I understand why it isn't, since the book already has about ten thousand characters and plots and subplots and still manages to keep moving at a serious clip. Adding more explicit backstory or development of their issues would just bring the whole jenga tower crashing down. And if it wasn't there at all, Goldmoon and Riverwind would be complete nonentities, which doesn't work since they're pretty important to the overall plot.

    We also get some solid Caramon and Raistlin stuff. I particularly like the line about Caramon seeing something in Raistlin from the Test; it works as an ominous touch on a first read since we know something bad happened there. It becomes really chilling when you know what did go down though, and explains Caramon's discomfort quite well. It's also another marvelous case of Raistlin yammering on about how misunderstood he is by all the plebs. If he used social media, it would be Livejournal, customized with a black background and red text. He'd also be voted "most likely to go full Carrie" by the entire high school. What I'm saying is that a lot of Raistlin's personality is pissed off high school nerd, and this really never leaves him, even though at this point he's in in mid twenties IIRC.

    We also get the first reference to Fistandantilus; a name that becomes important in a book or three.

    Spoiler
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    Future Stuff
    Since Raistlin is sort of possessed by Fistandantilus, his insistence on finding the spellbook is interesting. Is this a nudge from the big bad lich, or just Raistlin wanting more power on his own? It's arguable that Raistlin starts to get more evil after this, so it could be the influence of his special guest, or it could be Raistlin just getting more evil because, let's face it, Raistlin's always one bad day/good excuse away from going full evil.

    It isn't quite fair to say Raistlin never gets over his pissed off high school nerd complex; he clearly does by the end of Legends. So, you know, in five books and after nearly destroying the world. Full Carrie indeed.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I was mostly thinking that they'd never have gotten to the lower levels without the charm spell. I mean the assault on the lift just went swimmingly.
    The one thing Tas is very, very good at is finding his way around unfamiliar places.
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    As he will demonstrate in Pax Thrakas, Thorbardin, the Silver Dragon Mountain, the High Clerist's Tower, and Neraka.
    He would certainly have figured out the vine option soon enough on his own if Raistlin hadn't charmed the gully dwarves. (And Tas being Tas once he realizes there are vines he can climb down there would be no force on Krynn that would keep him away from them.)

    Well yeah, but the elves are all handicapped by being elves, and therefore committed to being massive jerks above all other concerns.
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    And yet the elves also produce the greatest hero of the whole saga :)


    It's not like in general Goldmoon bosses him around or treats him badly; if anything he's much ruder to her than the other way around. Certainly it's hard to see that she's done anything that requires asking for forgiveness, while after last chapter he should expect to be sleeping on the metaphorical couch for like a month.
    Yeah, if the authors wanted this conflict to work then they really needed to show Goldmoon treating Riverwind a lot worse than what we've seen so far because as it is Riverwind is really coming off as a brat.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I was mostly thinking that they'd never have gotten to the lower levels without the charm spell. I mean the assault on the lift just went swimmingly.

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    Future Stuff
    Since Raistlin is sort of possessed by Fistandantilus, his insistence on finding the spellbook is interesting. Is this a nudge from the big bad lich, or just Raistlin wanting more power on his own? It's arguable that Raistlin starts to get more evil after this, so it could be the influence of his special guest, or it could be Raistlin just getting more evil because, let's face it, Raistlin's always one bad day/good excuse away from going full evil.

    It isn't quite fair to say Raistlin never gets over his pissed off high school nerd complex; he clearly does by the end of Legends. So, you know, in five books and after nearly destroying the world. Full Carrie indeed.
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    I'm a little hazy, but I don't think Fisty has much (if any) influence over Raistlin at this point. I'm pretty sure I recall a later scene where Raistlin makes an explicit "you can come in now" bargain shortly before donning the Black himself. I always interpreted that as the bargain hanging over waiting to be fulfilled more than Fisty already really active. Fisty probably sent Raist after the spellbook because it would increase the chances of the bargain being fulfilled.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Raistlin is clearly agitated, and Caramon sees something in his eyes that he hasn't seen since the Towers of High Sorcery. Raistlin wants him to retrieve a spellbook, Raistlin knows it was in the city, based on other books he read. It will be in the dragon's lair, since the dragon is a magic user, and the spellbook is the greatest treasure in the city to a magic user. The book looks like Raistlin's spellbook, but bound in dark blue leather with silver runes on the cover. Caramon wants to know what the runes say, but Raistlin says he really doesn't want to know that.

    Caramon asks who the book belonged to. Raistlin says it belonged to Fistandantilus, who was one of the most powerful of wizards. Caramon wants to know if Fistandantilus wore the Black Robes. Instead of answering that question, Raistlin rants for a bit about how nobody understands him, then apologizes, and explains that the book was from early in Fistandantilus' career, and not of great power, and it is of the utmost importance that Caramon fetch it. Then he breaks down coughing.

    Caramon says he'll get it, and Raistlin goes to rest.
    I have so many questions about this. Raistlin believes the book to be in the city based on research that (presumably) pre-dates the Cataclysm. Whether or not that was true is a crapshoot to begin with. Then we have to assume that the book survived the Cataclysm. Given that the city collapsed into a gaping chasm, that seems...unlikely? Sure, it's a spellbook, and as such is likely to be more resilient than most. It's still pretty darn likely to have been buried under a million tons of rubble, or dropped into the river, or flung into the abyss, or...

    Then there's the further assumption that Khisanth knew about it. I mean, I guess it's reasonable that someone with interest in magic might know, in the same way a person with an interest in history knows where the Magna Carta is kept. It's still something that is by no means certain. You then have to assume that Khisanth found the thing. The odds of that are...well, see above. The place it was stored had to have survived reasonably intact, and the Draconians will have had to rummage through the place sufficiently to find it. And that's assuming that nobody looted the place post-Cataclysm and took the book. After all, it's a supremely valuable book of magic. Did no other mages post-Cataclysm seek out the city and steal it?

    On top of all that, you then have to find the stupid thing while sneaking around a dragon's hoard. How many other magic books does Khisanth keep in there? Are they just in the pile with all the gold and trinkets? Does Khisanth keep something as valuable as the book with the main hoard, or in a more secure place? Questions and more questions.

    With all the variables, there's a snowball's chance in hell of the book actually being in a place where Caramon can grab it in passing while also looting the hoard of something else. Of course, this is an old-school Fantasy novel, so the odds are actually "like, a hunnerd percent."

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I have so many questions about this. Raistlin believes the book to be in the city based on research that (presumably) pre-dates the Cataclysm.
    The much simpler explanation is that he thinks it's there because Fistandantilus told him.

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    Since Raistlin's got this lich possessing him, or following him around in astral form, or whatever the hell their arrangement is (I can't remember whether the authors ever give a clear explanation for exactly what Raist's connection is with Fist, or how he got it).
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    The much simpler explanation is that he thinks it's there because Fistandantilus told him.

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    Since Raistlin's got this lich possessing him, or following him around in astral form, or whatever the hell their arrangement is (I can't remember whether the authors ever give a clear explanation for exactly what Raist's connection is with Fist, or how he got it).
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    Hmmm...yeah. Fistandilatus can sense the spells he put on his own book to protect it (or something similar) so he knows roughly where the book is. Raistlin can't tell Caramon "Oh hey, this super evil wizard is using me as a Horcrux and he's telling me there's a spellbook down here" so he makes up some guff about having read about it in a book somewhere. Caramon, being the trusting soul that he is, never questions this interpretation.

    I like it.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I have so many questions about this. Raistlin believes the book to be in the city based on research that (presumably) pre-dates the Cataclysm. Whether or not that was true is a crapshoot to begin with. Then we have to assume that the book survived the Cataclysm. Given that the city collapsed into a gaping chasm, that seems...unlikely?
    That's kind of a recurring problem with the Xak Tsaroth chapters. (How did all those statues that the gully dwarves painted up survive the Cataclysm? To say nothing of the bags full of flour?)

    Then there's the further assumption that Khisanth knew about it. I mean, I guess it's reasonable that someone with interest in magic might know, in the same way a person with an interest in history knows where the Magna Carta is kept. It's still something that is by no means certain.
    Do spellbooks detect as magical? Khisanth implied in the last chapter that she can sense magical items. (Though given that the party has managed to get the Blue Crystal Staff pretty far into Xak Tsaroth without being detected by her it's questionable how reliable that ability is.)

    You then have to assume that Khisanth found the thing. The odds of that are...well, see above. The place it was stored had to have survived reasonably intact, and the Draconians will have had to rummage through the place sufficiently to find it.
    Well if Khisanth could sense the spellbook was out there then it wouldn't be that surprising for her to find it. What does she care if her draconians (or morel likely her gully dwarves) have to shift a thousand tons of rubble to get her something she wants.

    And that's assuming that nobody looted the place post-Cataclysm and took the book. After all, it's a supremely valuable book of magic. Did no other mages post-Cataclysm seek out the city and steal it?
    It actually kind of makes sense that Xak Tsaroth wouldn't be looted given that it is on the far side of a large swamp (which in a medieval world without magical healing is pretty much just an invitation to die of malaria or any of the dozens of other nasty swamp diseases.) Looters aren't likely to risk crossing a swamp unless they have real solid information that there is exceptionally valuable treasure on the other side.

    On top of all that, you then have to find the stupid thing while sneaking around a dragon's hoard. How many other magic books does Khisanth keep in there?
    Well to be fair I'm pretty sure Raistlin would be equally happy getting ahold of any other magical books Khisanth might own.

    Are they just in the pile with all the gold and trinkets? Does Khisanth keep something as valuable as the book with the main hoard, or in a more secure place? Questions and more questions.
    Well if Raistlin is to be believed (always an open question) then the book mostly consist of low level spells, so Khisanth probably wouldn't think it was that valuable and would thus likely have it mixed in with the main horde.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Hypothesis: Maybe part of the reason Khisanth is under-performing is Big Guy syndrome; the irony that a person who is very large and strong is often not all that good at fighting because no one will challenge them. It may have been centuries since Khisanth faced any kind of real threat, and so is both lazy and careless. And she is absolutely right in this: A band of 4th-6th level fighters is not a serious challenge to her. Were it not for whatever plot coupon is going to prevent a TPK in the next few chapters, there is absolutely no way they can credibly threaten hard. Small wonder, then, that she's not fighting this battle with any cunning or tactics. Who needs tactics, when you are the lion and the enemy is a mouse?

    As far as 'research' goes and how Raistlin knew the spellbook is there, spoiler-free, there are many options besides just reading books. There's Speak With Dead, there are other clairvoyance or gathering information spells. And some of those people who cast those spells may have themselves written books, which Raistlin read. That's assuming he hasn't some source of supernatural knowledge himself, of course.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2019-06-13 at 08:04 AM.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    The prequel novel Blackwing explains that Khisanth has a huge chip on her shoulder and is in Xak Tsaroth as a combination punishment and Takhisis looking for her to do something useful and putting her someplace that there is nobody else for her to but heads with.

    I would chalk any incompetence she shows in this book to a willful act of malicious compliance.
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    Which still would have been more than enough if not for the literal Deus ex machina that is coming up.
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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Well if Raistlin is to be believed (always an open question) then the book mostly consist of low level spells, so Khisanth probably wouldn't think it was that valuable and would thus likely have it mixed in with the main horde.
    I can't believe Raistlin would have risked his life to come here for Magic Missile or Burning hands or similar low-level trivia. If he's here, it's because he believes the knowledge in the book will give him an advantage that he couldn't get from the normal books he studied. Maybe it gives him a chance at books that would normally be out of reach of wizards of his level, like the restricted section in the hogwarts library?

    I can well believe, however, that Raistlin is telling a partial truth; I think it likely that he couldn't use a high-level book at the moment if he got his hands on it. But it must prove to be a stepping stone to greater power, probably a significant one. So it's probably more than a mere beginner's text , less than the Ultimate Arcane Power red-robed wizards seem to crave.

    I don't suppose anyone with access to the module could discuss?

    ETA: The original 1e module doesn't mention the spellbook of fistandantilus. It does show up in a 4e remake of the adventure, but I don't have legal access to that. I suppose the authors made it up for the story and didn't define it any further than that.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2019-06-13 at 11:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I don't suppose anyone with access to the module could discuss?
    This site says the book contains arcane lock, chill touch, invisibility, knock, and lightning bolt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    This site says the book contains arcane lock, chill touch, invisibility, knock, and lightning bolt.
    That seems about right.

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    I recall that later on in this book Raistlin casts his first spell from Fistandantilus' spellbook which seemed to be Knock. He also casts Lightning Bolt relatively early in Dragons of Winter Night, so it would make sense that he got that spell from Fistandantilus' spellbook as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    That seems about right.

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    I recall that later on in this book Raistlin casts his first spell from Fistandantilus' spellbook which seemed to be Knock. He also casts Lightning Bolt relatively early in Dragons of Winter Night, so it would make sense that he got that spell from Fistandantilus' spellbook as well.
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    From looking at the site (which appears to be tales of someone's play session with the module?) and from what you've said, that looks to me to be a reverse-engineered list. We know Raistlin cast those spells after this point in the story, ergo those spells were in the book. I find myself doubting that those are all that is contained within in the context of the story, because that's pretty chump change for a Black Dragon to be interested in.


    On Raistlin's research, I'm not doubting that he could have done any number of types of research to find out that the book was stored there pre-Cataclysm. The problem is, well, the Cataclysm. I'm not that familiar with D&D to begin with (and far less so with 1e), but it seems to me that finding the current location of a particular book would (or should) be difficult, and if it was easy then surely some other Wizard interested in gaining power would have scryed for the thing before now.

    I just find it weird that it's an interesting enough artifact to be coveted by a Black Dragon but not interesting enough for anyone else to have read about it and sent a party to the city. Or even just used as fire kindling by the survivors of Xak Tsaroth in the aftermath of their city getting swallowed up. Or by the gully dwarves, who've been living there for however long before the draconians showed up.

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I can't believe Raistlin would have risked his life to come here for Magic Missile or Burning hands or similar low-level trivia. If he's here, it's because he believes the knowledge in the book will give him an advantage that he couldn't get from the normal books he studied. Maybe it gives him a chance at books that would normally be out of reach of wizards of his level, like the restricted section in the hogwarts library?

    I can well believe, however, that Raistlin is telling a partial truth; I think it likely that he couldn't use a high-level book at the moment if he got his hands on it. But it must prove to be a stepping stone to greater power, probably a significant one. So it's probably more than a mere beginner's text , less than the Ultimate Arcane Power red-robed wizards seem to crave.

    I don't suppose anyone with access to the module could discuss?

    ETA: The original 1e module doesn't mention the spellbook of fistandantilus. It does show up in a 4e remake of the adventure, but I don't have legal access to that. I suppose the authors made it up for the story and didn't define it any further than that.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Remember that this is not only 1e, but a fairly magically restricted 1e. For formal magic training, you have exactly one source. If they don't want to give you access to a spell, you can't just pop over to the local Magic Mart and get it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
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    From looking at the site (which appears to be tales of someone's play session with the module?) and from what you've said, that looks to me to be a reverse-engineered list. We know Raistlin cast those spells after this point in the story, ergo those spells were in the book. I find myself doubting that those are all that is contained within in the context of the story, because that's pretty chump change for a Black Dragon to be interested in.


    On Raistlin's research, I'm not doubting that he could have done any number of types of research to find out that the book was stored there pre-Cataclysm. The problem is, well, the Cataclysm. I'm not that familiar with D&D to begin with (and far less so with 1e), but it seems to me that finding the current location of a particular book would (or should) be difficult, and if it was easy then surely some other Wizard interested in gaining power would have scryed for the thing before now.

    I just find it weird that it's an interesting enough artifact to be coveted by a Black Dragon but not interesting enough for anyone else to have read about it and sent a party to the city. Or even just used as fire kindling by the survivors of Xak Tsaroth in the aftermath of their city getting swallowed up. Or by the gully dwarves, who've been living there for however long before the draconians showed up.
    A wizard's spellbook would have been enchanted against casual destruction, especially a combat spellbook. Its not inconceivable that it survived the destruction of the city. The only other people who would be interested in it are the wizards, and they may not have known it was there, or not cared much since it was a low level spellbook with fairly common spells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    A wizard's spellbook would have been enchanted against casual destruction, especially a combat spellbook. Its not inconceivable that it survived the destruction of the city. The only other people who would be interested in it are the wizards, and they may not have known it was there, or not cared much since it was a low level spellbook with fairly common spells.
    So why is Khisanth interested in it then? And why was it remarkable enough to be recorded where the book was located, if the book was full of common spells?

    It's either a notable enough artifact that Raistlin tracked it down through extensive research and Khisanth would want it enough to dig it out of the ruins...or it's not, and it shouldn't be referenced in the history books and Khisanth doesn't care about a book full of piddly 2nd level spells.

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    So why is Khisanth interested in it then?
    Who says she is? It's a treasure. The Macguffin Khisanth is guarding is far more notable, and she doesn't evince any interest in that or the other stuff. She's lazy and greedy. She doesn't care about the wealth or the power in her possession so long as she can make a bed of it.

    And why was it remarkable enough to be recorded where the book was located, if the book was full of common spells?
    I think Gnoman has the right of it; this is a relatively low-magic world. IIRC, all of the spells on that list are intermediate, but this is a world where you can't go beyond 2nd level without training at the Towers of High Sorcery, which are a closed guild. So it would be valuable to a low-level mage like Raistlin (level 3 in the original module, with 2 lvl 1 slots and 1 lvl 2) trying to survive to mid-level, but not of great interest to a truly powerful mage like Par-Salian.

    So maybe that's why no one else has collected it -- to anyone who has the power to find it via scrying, it's not worth tangling with an ancient black dragon to retrieve. And people of lower levels can't.

    I'd also be very surprised if a commoner, confronted with a night-blue book with glowing runes on the front, would even presume to touch it let alone use it as kindling. It's not an object entirely of this world.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    So why is Khisanth interested in it then?
    Is Khisanth that interested in it though? When she learns that there are intruders in Xak Tsaroth she immediately assumes they are coming for the Disks and never even considers that they might be interested in the spell book. That suggests she doesn't consider the spell book to be particularly important.

    And why was it remarkable enough to be recorded where the book was located, if the book was full of common spells?
    Well it's still a spell book that belonged to the most powerful mage in Ansalon's history. I imagine Fistandantilus' life has been pretty well documented by Conclave scholars just out of historical interest. And of course there would be a lot of prestige in owning any magical item that Fistandantilus ever owned. (Just consider the Staff of Magius. We don't really ever see it do much other than act as a glorified flashlight, but it conveys immense prestige on the wizard that owned it simply because it was once owned by Magius. I imagine owning a spell book of Fistandantilus would convey similar prestige.)

    And regardless, even a book of low level spells is valuable if you don't already know those spells.

    It's either a notable enough artifact that Raistlin tracked it down through extensive research and Khisanth would want it enough to dig it out of the ruins...or it's not, and it shouldn't be referenced in the history books and Khisanth doesn't care about a book full of piddly 2nd level spells.
    Well if Raistlin is to be believed then it didn't take a lot of extensive research to know that the spellbook was in Xak Tsaroth as he says it was common knowledge among the Conclave that the spell book was there prior to the Cataclysm. (They just assumed it had been destroyed in the Cataclysm, and Raistlin only considered that the spell book might still be there when he discovered that some of Xak Tsaroth had survived the Cataclysm.)

    As for Khisanth, how would she know that the book only contained 2nd and 3rd level spells until she actually recovered it? It's not like she would be plugged into Conclave gossip about what the spell book contained.

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    The original module this book is based on, Dragons of Despair, does not mention Fistandantilus at all. There is, however, a spellbook that can be found in Xak Tsarath. It is not in Khisanth's lair, though, but in the palace treasury and it contains the following spells: Wizard Lock, Knock, and Invisibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    The original module this book is based on, Dragons of Despair, does not mention Fistandantilus at all. There is, however, a spellbook that can be found in Xak Tsarath. It is not in Khisanth's lair, though, but in the palace treasury and it contains the following spells: Wizard Lock, Knock, and Invisibility.
    That sounds like where it probably came from then. They added the lore to it as a way to get some exposition on Fistandilatus.

    Anyway, consider me sufficiently convinced about the book. I think I would still be looking askance at Raistlin saying "I read this book was here 300 years ago, it'll be in the dragon's hoard for sure", but it's less unlikely than I originally thought it would be.

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    And we're back!

    Apologies for the absence, I was out of town with friends all weekend. No time, and no internet makes updating hard. But now I've returned to my vaguely hermitlike real life, time and internet both abound.

    We left our intrepid heroes (so to speak) in a tunnel, filled with magical blackness, and right underneath the dragon's lair...
    21: The sacrifice. The twice-dead city
    Tanis feels a sudden, quite understandable, rush of despair. This was his plan, and everyone is going to get killed because of it. He wonders briefly if Raistlin has betrayed them, but decides against it; the mage might be unpleasant, but he isn't a traitor. Anyway, Raistlin's probably dead by now, like they all will be in a moment.

    Sturm grabs his arm, and reminds him that this is their only chance to get the Discs, so it's now or never, dragon or no. Tanis goes up the ladder to look through the grate, but can't see anything. He can't be sure Sturm's judgement is sound here, the knight clearly wants to fight the dragon. Reaching a snap decision, he decides they're going for it; just to get this over with, and he can go home to Solace.

    They head up the ladder, Sturm and Caramon first, the others somewhere in the middle, with Tas and Flint bringing up the rear. Tas is disappointed - he wants to talk to the dragon! - Flint points out that they're all about to die, and Tanis knows it. Tas says kender aren't really scared of dying, since it's just another adventure, but he'd miss his things, and his friends, unless they all end up in the same place. The idea of Tas dead is very upsetting to Flint, but he just says Tas is nuts if he thinks he's going to put up with a kender in the afterlife.

    Sturm and Caramon make quite a bit of noise removing the grate and squeezing through. It's still pitch black, and Sturm says they need light. The dragon agrees with them, and the darkness vanishes.

    The only light comes through a crack in the ceiling, and it illuminates the dragon alone. Khisanth is perched on a pedestal in the center of a horde of gold, gems and other precious things. Under one of her claws is Raistlin. Caramon starts for his brother, but the dragon makes it entirely clear she will impale Raistlin on her claw. Caramon tries to get Khisanth to fight him, but she dismisses the idea of fighting any of them, and reminds Raistlin that she speaks the language of magic as well. If he even starts a spell, she'll spear him like a bug.


    The final encounter with Khisanth, by Clyde Caldwell. I'm not an expert at AD&D, but I think letting your magic-user be incapacitated by the end-of-dungeon boss before even rolling init isn't great tactics.

    Raistlin himself is preparing to cast a final spell, even though he knows the dragon will kill him. This might provide enough of a distraction to let somebody get the Discs.

    Khisanth is surprised that any of the companions survived her attack, but demands Goldmoon bring her the staff. Tanis tells her to stall, but Goldmoon doesn't seem to hear. The dragon says that unless she surrenders the staff, she will kill the others, one by one, until Goldmoon begs for mercy.

    Goldmoon kisses Tanis on the cheek, tells him goodbye. She is going to bring the staff to Khisanth, and he needs to keep Riverwind from trying to stop her. Tanis asks what she will do if he tries to stop her, but she says that he won't, since this is is her destiny, as the Forestmaster said. She casts one final look at Riverwind, and steps towards the dragon. Riverwind tries to follow, but Tanis stops him, saying they need to trust her.

    The companions watch Goldmoon approach the dragon. Tas suddenly realizes he feels afraid for the others, and he hates the feeling. Goldmoon reassures Caramon that Raistlin will be alright, and asks Sturm to accompany her, if he promises to do exactly as she says. Sturm, ever the faithful knight, agrees.


    Under the dragon's claw, Raistlin prepares for his last spell. He's having trouble getting the words to form in his mind. He wonders why he's throwing his life away for the others, who hate him, but won't attack to spare him from the dragon. Then a voice whispers in the back of his mind; he doesn't do this for them, but because he allows nothing to defeat him. Nothing, not even death. The voice is distinct, familiar, but Raistlin can't place it. But his mind clears, and he begins casting his spell, before another voice in his mind distracts him. He looks dispassionately at Goldmoon approaching, leaning on Sturm's arm. His cursed eyes mean that he has never seen her as beautiful, and he feels no attachment or compassion for her, if anything he hates her for pitying him. But she is mentally telling him to wait, that this is her sacrifice.

    Sturm, Raistlin thinks, is really the ideal patsy for Goldmoon's scheme, since he'll do whatever he's told. He wonders why Riverwind isn't with her, then sees Tanis talking to him, "dropping words of wisdom, like blood."

    Goldmoon is right in front of the dragon - and Raistlin - now. Khisanth orders her to drop the staff at her feet. Both Goldmoon and Sturm are nearly paralyzed by dragonfear, and Goldmoon is rendered speechless until Sturm nudges her. Goldmoon asks what the dragon will give them in exchange for the staff. The dragon laughs at this idea, saying that Lord Verminaard may spare her, but neither her nor her have any use for Goldmoon's companions. Give up the staff or she starts killing them. Sturm whispers to Goldmoon that he's found the Discs, and whether she is set on doing this.

    Goldmoon looks at Sturm, and smiles sadly, like the marble statue of Mishakal. Sturm bows, and Goldmoon starts to tell him to tell Riverwind - but she realizes she'll break down if she continues. And so, as the goddess said, she presents the staff boldly, and shouts that they will not surrender. Then she brings the staff down on the dragon's foot.

    The staff bursts apart in blinding blue light and a ringing sound. Shining waves of light pulse from the staff. The dragons thrashes and howls in agony, the staff has dealt her a fatal wound, but the blue fire is consuming Goldmoon as well. She falls to her knees, the pain overwhelming, thinking that at least when she's dead, she will be where she belongs...

    Sturm starts to rush to save Goldmoon, but realizes that he can't, and it will take all the fortitude he has to retrieve the Discs. The blue light is blinding, and the ringing is growing louder and louder, hurting his head. He grabs the Discs, when a hand grabs his wrist. He pulls Raistlin upright; the mage is bloody but doesn't seem to be badly injured. Sturm can't manage the Discs and Raistlin, but Caramon appears. Raistlin is digging through the treasure, trying to find the spellbook. Caramon insists that they need to flee, but Raistlin persists.


    The Discs of Mishakal from the animated movie. Basically a multi-CD set of divine wisdom. Personally I'd hold out for the MP3 version.

    Then Sturm realizes that the cavern ceiling is collapsing. The ringing stops, the blue light dies, the dragon is gone, and Sturm can hear the entire chamber - the entire city - collapsing. Tanis appears, blood trickling from a cut on his head, and Sturm asks how they can get out. The only way Tanis knows is the tunnel they entered through, but that's suicidal. Tanis looks around for the others; Raistlin is still digging in the treasure pile. And next to him is Bupu, who's been cowering there, unnoticed, the entire time. Tanis tries to grab her, and bellows that Raistlin needs to get Bupu to show them another way out, now.

    Raistlin abandons the search in disgust, and he and Bupu head towards another exit she knows. Tanis goes to collect the others; Riverwind is standing in the blackened spot where the dragon - and Goldmoon - disappeared, refusing to move. She is entirely gone. Tanis tells Sturm he's in charge of getting the others out, he's going to stay with Riverwind. Sturm, forced to obey a direct order, follows the others down a passage, and says they'll wait a bit for Tanis and Riverwind. Sturm, of course, will wait until he dies.

    The floor is starting to crack, water gushing through the fissures, and Sturm is about to order the others on, when Riverwind appears, carrying Tanis. The half elf was struck by a falling piece of stone. Caramon offers to carry him, but Riverwind insists he do it.

    Bupu leads them on to the main plaza, which is cracking apart and sliding into Newsea. Gully dwarves are running everywhere. The only way out Sturm can think of is the pot lifts, so they head that way. Caramon points out that they'll have to fight through the draconians, but doesn't have any better ideas. The bleeding, limping party pauses at a corner. Looking around, Sturm can see the pots, which are surrounded by draconians. But they're all intent on escape; if they take them by surprise when the lift reaches the bottom, they might have a chance.

    There's a brief pause while Sturm tries to organize the group to attack the draconians. Raistlin says he still has magic remaining, so they wait. The top pot, covered in panicked gully dwarves, reappears, coming down, and the draconians start to fight each other to get out of the now rapidly disintegrating city. The pot touches down, the gully dwarves run away, and Sturm tells the others to attack. Raistlin opens with a sleep spell, which puts several draconians down. But the others shake it off. They charge, Sturm yells his battle cry, the draconians turn towards them, and Riverwind goes berserk.

    He doesn't bother with his sword, but just starts killing draconians with his bare hands. He gets struck repeatedly by draconian swords, but just keeps on coming. The draconians, realizing they can't stop him, finally break and run for it, and Riverwind collapses. Raistlin calls out that the lift is starting to go back up. Caramon grabs the edge, digs his feet in, and holds it in place as the others scramble in. Sturm goes back to collect Tanis - Flint says he's still alive - and they get him and Riverwind into the pot. Raistlin tosses Bupu in, Caramon swings in, and Sturm, the last to leave, grabs the edge as it starts upwards.

    As the pot ascends through the mists, Tanis starts to come around. He's got broken ribs, and is worried about Riverwind. Sturm says that they got the Discs, which is what Goldmoon wanted. Tanis isn't sure what use the Discs will be.

    The pot suddenly jerks, falls for a moment, then stop and starts to ascend again. Clearly the mechanism is failing as the city crumbles, or the draconians are trying to sabotage the mechanism. They can see draconians at the top of the shaft now, getting ready to jump and crash the pot. Raistlin has a spell left, and hides behind Caramon's shield as he prepares to cast it. The mists part, the first draconian jumps, and Raistlin casts his spell. The ball of magic webbing hits the jumping draconian, tangling it in webbing, and it falls screaming into the abyss. As it falls, its body strikes the pot, making it lurch and sway.

    Raistlin collapses, coughing blood, but there's a draconian left. Over Caramon's protestations, he starts to gesture, preparing to cast another spell. The draconian considers its options, and runs for it as the pot finally reaches the surface.

    Commentary

    This chapter culminates a lot of the book's themes to date, notably paying off both the gods and the dragon in a big way. The heroes are clearly totally outclassed by the dragon, only divine intervention via magic staff allows them to win at all. And it's a Pyrrhic victory; Goldmoon is apparently completely vaporized, Riverwind is severely wounded, and they have... some Discs that are important for unspecified reasons, basically. What good these are is, at this point, utterly unclear. So we get another major theme introduced directly, although not described yet; victory requires sacrifice. We'll see a lot of this later.

    We do get some nice character stuff in here. I particularly like the interaction between Goldmoon and Sturm; if one is going to one's death, Sturm is the escort you'd want. Sturm's the sort to genuinely respect Goldmoon's choice. They're also the characters most seriously committed to particular ethical codes or disciplines in the series, so there's a natural similarity and basis for respect there that hasn't really been explored that heavily so far. It's interesting that we mostly see this through Raistlin's eyes, his take is of course maximally cynical. He doesn't care about Goldmoon, Sturm is just her tool, Riverwind a fool. I really like the line about Tanis' words falling like blood, it does a lot of work in making us realize that Tanis is of course going to feel terrible about making Riverwind stay while Goldmoon goes to die, even though the narrative doesn't have the time to really engage directly with this given the circumstances.

    Speaking of Raistlin, we get some interesting Mysterious Voice stuff. This will obviously be important later. This is the first hint that there's something genuinely extra-weird going on with Raistlin, beyond the whole golden skin and hourglass eyes. It's also one of the very rare occasions where we get his perspective; the description of what his eyes see is pretty chilling. Imagine seeing everybody dying of old age all the time; it would be enough to genuinely mess somebody up. Of course Raistlin was already a bit messed up. But he bothers to save Bupu, which is a wonderful little touch. Nobody else is concerned with any of the gully dwarves at all; Raistlin clearly cares in some strange way.

    The action beats are also solid, although generally handled in a pretty to-the-point way. Everything feels appropriately rushed, panicky, chaotic and messy, what with the whole collapsing city thing.


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    Honestly the use of the Discs is never exactly made super-clear. They're important clearly, but because the books aren't really focused on clerics, we don't get a particularly good sense as to why, or what wisdom they contain, or anything like that. Also this is the last time the whole search for the true gods stuff is super-important. After this the major concerns are rather more earthly. All-conquering evil armies have a way of focusing the mind like that.

    The voice talking in Raistlin's voice is of course Fistandandilus. This makes Raistlin's borderline suicidal obsession with the spellbook somewhat more reasonable once the Raistlin/Fistandandilus connection is explained... in like four books.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    From my understanding, the Discs are basically the dragonlance version of the Bible or other holy texts. They explain who the gods are, what their profiles are, and what they like to see in their minions/followers. This isn't limited to the gods of good, either, though it is mostly from their perspective, as the name implies.

    To that end, I can certainly see why the gods would consider it the greatest gift ever given, because theyre basically handing out a how-to guide on getting back in good with the gods. Naturally, Tanis and many other mortals disagree there, and I personally think they've got the stronger stance here. Even the gods of good tend to cause as much trouble as they fix, they just do it accidentally.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Mechanically speaking, in D&D terms, the main purpose of the disks is that anyone with levels in cleric (or any divine casting class) who reads them gains access to their divine powers--including spells (but only if you are LG or NG, otherwise you take 4d6 lightning damage when you touch them).

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    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Bumping this to note I'm still avidly waiting for the next installment. I actually purchased the modules on drivethrough RPG just for this readthrough!

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  27. - Top - End - #267
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    On to the next part of the quest: A computer that has a CD drive! The big twist to lead us into the next book is that the discs are actually Blu-Ray.

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Even the gods of good tend to cause as much trouble as they fix, they just do it accidentally.
    Agreed. Even in this very chapter Mishakal all but nukes Xak Tsaroth (killing who knows how many gully dwarves in the process.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM
    Mechanically speaking, in D&D terms, the main purpose of the disks is that anyone with levels in cleric (or any divine casting class) who reads them gains access to their divine powers--including spells (but only if you are LG or NG, otherwise you take 4d6 lightning damage when you touch them).
    Spoiler
    Show
    Though in the books the Disks aren't even necessary for that as we'll see in Dragons of Winter Night where Goldmoon helps several people become spell casting clerics without any help from the Disks.

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Agreed. Even in this very chapter Mishakal all but nukes Xak Tsaroth (killing who knows how many gully dwarves in the process.)



    Spoiler
    Show
    Though in the books the Disks aren't even necessary for that as we'll see in Dragons of Winter Night where Goldmoon helps several people become spell casting clerics without any help from the Disks.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Clerics can make other clerics, but how do you get those first clerics, when there aren't any in the land? That's where the disks come in; they allow the creation of generation zero clerics, who can then pass the virus on to others.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Spoiler
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    Clerics can make other clerics, but how do you get those first clerics, when there aren't any in the land? That's where the disks come in; they allow the creation of generation zero clerics, who can then pass the virus on to others.
    Spoiler
    Show
    But were the Disks really necessary for making that first cleric? If you track the sequence of events in the book, Goldmoon boldly presents the staff against the dragon, is seemingly disintegrated, is found alive, and then announces she is a now a "true cleric" all before she ever touches the Disks (much less reads them.) She doesn't actually interact with the Disks directly until after she has already become a cleric which suggests the Disks weren't actually necessary to make her that first cleric.

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