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    Default Question about simulacrum

    My master decided to let me get a simulacrum of a pit Devil, but we are not sure how to adapt his stats and abilities. Could someone help us doing it giving an approx profile?

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    The method I use:
    1) Halve the HD, change stats and drop feats as appropriate. That's the simple part.
    2) For its special abilities, if any are way beyond what other creatures of its new CR (half) have, then weaken them. This takes some winging it.
    3) If an ability is too strong, but it's not clear how to reduce it without changing it completely, you can keep it unchanged and add a 50% failure chance.

    Size and ability scores are explicitly unchanged, IIRC, so those you don't need to worry about.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2019-05-14 at 12:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    This is actually relatively easy:

    BAB is determined by creature type and HD. Since you have half the HD of a Pit Fiend, look up in the back of the monster manual to see what BAB that number of outsider HD gives you (Outsider HD gives BAB as a fighter, so it's a 1 for 1). (For a Pit Fiend, that means the BAB changes to 9)

    Saves for Spell-like abilities are based on Constitution & HD, the formula is also found in the back of the monster manual (in the glossary I think).
    - Edit - It's the Supernatural abilities that are based on HD, not the Spell-likes. (So if we are talking Pit Fiend, the Disease and Fear Aura abilities would drop their DCs to 22 for a Simulacrum)

    HP is determined by an average based on HD size, which is also easy to calculate.

    That should cover almost everything.
    Last edited by Deadline; 2019-05-14 at 05:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrark View Post
    My master decided to let me get a simulacrum of a pit Devil, but we are not sure how to adapt his stats and abilities. Could someone help us doing it giving an approx profile?
    The spell is poorly defined. You're supposed to remove anything not appropriate to the level or hit dice, which may or may not include spell-like abilities, natural armor, supernatural abilities, natural casting, and so on. HD is halved, and that controls skill ranks, most feats, BAB, saves, HP, and supernatural or extraordinary save DCs.

    But what folks are usually after is the various utility nifties. And what of those it keeps are poorly defined when they don't come from class levels.

    There's also the multi class question, but that doesn't apply here.

    In the end, all you're likely to get here are opinions and arguments. There is not enough definition to give a complete RAW answer.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Create a Simulacrum of a 36hd Pit Fiend. That way when it's halved it's the normal 18hd Pit Fiend.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    As a rule of thumb, you may want to decide that all spell-like are used at 50% caster level. If a wizard of that level wouldn't be able to cast the corresponding spell, then the spell-like is lost.

    I'd leave natural armor, size, movement modes unchanged. The changes to the DCs of Ex and Su are automatic as they depend on HD. At the end of this process, you may want to remove everything which is far beyond the capabilities of a 7th level spell; for example, you could drop the 1/year wish and replace it with a 1/year limited wish.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    As a rule of thumb, you may want to decide that all spell-like are used at 50% caster level. If a wizard of that level wouldn't be able to cast the corresponding spell, then the spell-like is lost.
    The Caster Level for Spell-likes is already based on HD, but house-ruling a removal of Spell-likes that emulate a spell which couldn't be cast by a wizard of that Caster Level is probably a good way of "removing inappropriate abilities".
    Last edited by Deadline; 2019-05-15 at 10:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    2) For its special abilities, if any are way beyond what other creatures of its new CR (half) have, then weaken them. This takes some winging it.
    This is the important part.

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    3) If an ability is too strong, but it's not clear how to reduce it without changing it completely, you can keep it unchanged and add a 50% failure chance.
    Keep in mind that for at-will abilities a failure chance may not matter, and also keep in mind the bit above.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Create a Simulacrum of a 36hd Pit Fiend. That way when it's halved it's the normal 18hd Pit Fiend.
    If your GM creates an advanced Pit Fiend for you to copy then go for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If your GM creates an advanced Pit Fiend for you to copy then go for it.
    Nope. Eschew Materials solves everything. On top of that so does Summon Component, Miracle, True Creation, and Wish.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Nope. Eschew Materials solves everything. On top of that so does Summon Component, Miracle, True Creation, and Wish.
    What page is the 36HD Pit Fiend on?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What page is the 36HD Pit Fiend on?
    p.57. Under "advancement"

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    p.57. Under "advancement"
    Right, and who advances it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Right, and who advances it?
    Whoever wants to use the stats.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Whoever wants to use the stats.
    Right, for their game, i.e. the GM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Right, for their game, i.e. the GM.
    Or the player who wants to call one with Gate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Or the player who wants to call one with Gate.
    What Psyren's trying to get at is that not all things possible within the rules necessarily exist in a given gameworld. If no such Pit Fiend exists, you can neither Call it with Gate nor copy it with Simulacrum.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    What Psyren's trying to get at is that not all things possible within the rules necessarily exist in a given gameworld. If no such Pit Fiend exists, you can neither Call it with Gate nor copy it with Simulacrum.
    That's no different than saying you can't summon wolves because no wolves exist in the game world. You're not calling/creating a unique being. You're calling/creating a generic creature with advanced hd. Planar Ally can do this so why not Gate and Simulacrum?

    And nothing says the creature has to exist at the time of casting. If you found a skeletal toe of a long dead creature, can you cast simulacrum to create a duplicate? So if you can create a simulacrum of a creature of the past, why not a creature of the future especially if you're ignoring the material component with Wish or Miracle? Or how about a toe of a theoretical creature brought into being with Wish or Miracle? And then ignored through eschew materials?

    Possibilities are endless. Point is, if a Pit Fiend can become a 36hd creature, then you can create a simulacrum of it because there are iron-clad rules for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    That's no different than saying you can't summon wolves because no wolves exist in the game world. You're not calling/creating a unique being. You're calling/creating a generic creature with advanced hd. Planar Ally can do this so why not Gate and Simulacrum?
    The spell requires a template on which to base itself. The template is a specific creature. I doubt eschew/ignore material components would permit that. Perhaps a lenient GM may say its OK.

    You would have to gate in or planar bind a creature with advanced HD and get a toenail clipping or something. You would need to be a cosmic descryer to pull something like that off. Cosmic descryer gets +12 HD for its planar binding and gating over 10 levels.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    That's no different than saying you can't summon wolves because no wolves exist in the game world.
    Yes, exactly But in most settings, standard wolves do exist - for an advanced wolf, the GM would have to advance one of the standard (extraplanar) ones, then you could potentially summon it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    And nothing says the creature has to exist at the time of casting.
    Simulacrum itself does - it specifically says you "duplicate", not that you create something from scratch. To duplicate something, it has to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    By default all advanced creatures exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarven Ancestor
    The basic version of the creature can be called using lesser planar ally, but advanced ancestors require higher-level versions of the spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voor
    A typical voor can be called using a lesser planar ally spell. (More powerful voors might require planar ally or greater planar ally.)
    The existence of advanced versions of these creatures is not unique to these two creatures. They're not the special exception to a general rule that says advanced creatures don't exist by default. There is no such general rule, so these two examples are proof that you can call non-unique advanced outsiders.

    And if you can call non-unique advanced outsiders then you can make simulacra of it.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 10:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    By default all advanced creatures exist.
    MM says otherwise:

    "ADDING HIT DICE
    When you improve a monster by adding Hit Dice, use Table 4–4 to determine the effect on the creature’s CR."


    The "you" in this case is the DM, and therefore that advancement is something they have to initiate.

    As for your specific examples - they don't say those creatures exist by default - they say that if they are advanced, their increased HD will require higher levels of the spell. It's essentially reminder text.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    The existence of advanced versions of these creatures is not unique to these two creatures.
    I'm not denying that rules to advance monsters exist. But the DM has to invoke those rules, just like they would with a custom spell or item.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Is it your opinion that dead creatures cannot be made into simulacra? Because Frostburn has a direct example of dead creatures being turned into simulacra.
    I don't see what relevance dead creatures have here.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm not denying that rules to advance monsters exist. But the DM has to invoke those rules, just like they would with a custom spell or item.
    Are you saying the DM has to invoke those rules for Voor and Dwarven Ancestor? Because that quoted section lies under "For Player Characters" along with summoning said creatures via summon monster.

    No, the player can invoke the advancement rules too. And if you can for Voor and Dwarven Ancestor by default then you can for all other creatures. Cosmic Descryer is another instance of player controlled monster advancement so your claim that only DMs can use those rules is incorrect.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Regardless of what the RAW might say, a DM is well within their rights to say "You get a stock Pit Fiend, not an advanced one."

    And for what it's worth, I'd certainly err on the side of "The DM gets to decide if advanced creatures exist," not "Players can Gate/Call/Whatever creatures of arbitrarily large HD."
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Are you saying the DM has to invoke those rules for Voor and Dwarven Ancestor? Because that quoted section lies under "For Player Characters" along with summoning said creatures via summon monster.
    Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. The player can call them - if they exist due to DM creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Cosmic Descryer is another instance of player controlled monster advancement so your claim that only DMs can use those rules is incorrect.
    On the contrary, the fact that you need an ability in an Epic PrC to access even a limited version of this proves my point - this is not a default reading of how those spells operate. And DMs allowing Cosmic Descryer (or even Epic in general) are responsible for the balance of their games that use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Are you saying the DM has to invoke those rules for Voor and Dwarven Ancestor? Because that quoted section lies under "For Player Characters" along with summoning said creatures via summon monster.

    No, the player can invoke the advancement rules too. And if you can for Voor and Dwarven Ancestor by default then you can for all other creatures. Cosmic Descryer is another instance of player controlled monster advancement so your claim that only DMs can use those rules is incorrect.
    Dwarf Ancestor and Voor are both from MM4.

    Dwarf Ancestor has a specific section of text titled "Advanced Dwarf Ancestors"(pg54) which specifically states that up to 18HD Dwarf Ancestors exist, and Voor has a statblock for a more powerful Voor, the Dreadful Lasher, printed(pg193), so them having sections detailing that summoning the more powerful variants requires the higher level summoning spells does not imply that any advanced creatures must exist. In fact, in the same overall section as Voor (which is a subsection of Yugoloth), there's the Corruptor of Fate, which has that same "For Player Characters" entry without the advanced summoning text, implying that the specific mentions of the advanced summoning in the other entries is the exception, not the rule.

    Similarly, Cosmic Descryer creates its own exception, specifically stating that it can "conjure creatures with 4 Hit Dice of advancement"(and the more as the class levels up).


    Neither the CD class feature, nor the 2 monster entries imply in any way that any or all advanced versions of monsters are available by default. There may be other rules or entries elsewhere that do imply that, but these ones don't...

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Regardless of what the RAW might say, a DM is well within their rights to say "You get a stock Pit Fiend, not an advanced one."
    No? Just like whether you can summon a Voor via summon monster is iron clad RAW, calling advanced Voors is also iron clad RAW. So if you want to use Planar Binding or Gate to call an advanced Pit Fiend, you can. It's not the advancement rules' fault that spells like Gate can bring in epic creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    And for what it's worth, I'd certainly err on the side of "The DM gets to decide if advanced creatures exist," not "Players can Gate/Call/Whatever creatures of arbitrarily large HD."
    RAW and what DMs usually decide are two different things. I'm just saying, by RAW, players can use advanced creatures for planar ally, binding, gate, simualcrum, etc. and the DM has to go out of his way to stop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. The player can call them - if they exist due to DM creation.
    It doesn't say "(More powerful voors might require planar ally or greater planar ally if you so choose to have such creatures exist)". It says you can call more powerful voors with planar ally and greater planar ally. Definitive factual statement. Iron Clad. You can.

    Also Golem Creation. If I create a Golem, I can advance its hd as much as I want. So your claim that advancement rules exist solely for DMs is false and is not an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    On the contrary, the fact that you need an ability in an Epic PrC to access even a limited version of this proves my point - this is not a default reading of how those spells operate. And DMs allowing Cosmic Descryer (or even Epic in general) are responsible for the balance of their games that use it.
    No. You can't summon advanced creatures. The epic PrC changes this. But you can call advanced outsiders with Planar Binding and the PrC just increases the cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Dwarf Ancestor and Voor are both from MM4.

    Dwarf Ancestor has a specific section of text titled "Advanced Dwarf Ancestors"(pg54) which specifically states that up to 18HD Dwarf Ancestors exist
    This is irrelevant. All creatures have an advancement entry. The Dwarf Ancestor section does absolutely nothing but repeat the information in the statblock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    and Voor has a statblock for a more powerful Voor, the Dreadful Lasher, printed(pg193), so them having sections detailing that summoning the more powerful variants requires the higher level summoning spells does not imply that any advanced creatures must exist. In fact, in the same overall section as Voor (which is a subsection of Yugoloth), there's the Corruptor of Fate, which has that same "For Player Characters" entry without the advanced summoning text, implying that the specific mentions of the advanced summoning in the other entries is the exception, not the rule.
    It says "more powerful voors". Plural. So unless you have a 2nd advanced Voor statblock the Dreadful Lasher is not evidence of anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Neither the CD class feature, nor the 2 monster entries imply in any way that any or all advanced versions of monsters are available by default. There may be other rules or entries elsewhere that do imply that, but these ones don't...
    Planar Binding can call any outsider with 12hd or less, unique or otherwise. You need to know the name of the creature if it is unique. However if advanced creatures are not unique you don't have to.

    So the question is: Are advanced creatures unique? Y/N?
    If Y: You can't call creatures of advanced creatures without learning their name first
    If N: You can call creatures of advanced creatures.

    Dwarven Ancestor and Voor proves
    1. You can call advanced creatures with Planar Ally/Binding and Gate
    2. Advanced creatures are not unique

    Therefore you can bind as many max advancement creatures you want as long as it is within the spell's limit.

    Psyren's claim that players are not allowed to use advancement rules is false. Unless the DM bans it, the player can call more powerful Voors and Dwarven Ancestors as much as they want.

    "Not Unique" means "lots exist"
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 12:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    RoboEmperor, do you really think WotC has that ironclad, precise, computer code rules with D&D 3.5?

    Really?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    RoboEmperor, do you really think WotC has that ironclad, precise, computer code rules with D&D 3.5?

    Really?
    Some parts are. Drown healing for example is iron clad despite being ******ed.

    Some parts require logic. I'd say they're iron clad too.

    Some parts require Extrapolation. These aren't iron clad.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    You know what, if we're gonna do this, lets be organized. Since I'm the sole opponent to all of you, I will lay out my reasoning and evidence and you guys post your disagreements at each section.


    Planar Binding and Ally
    1. Planar Binding and ally can call creatures up to 12hd.
    2. Generic Creatures require no names.
    3. Specific unique individual creatures requires names to call.

    Q: Are Advanced Creatures generic or unique?
    A: Unknown at this time. Probably not.


    Monster Manual IV
    1. For Voors, under "For Player Characters", it says you can summon Voors with Summon Monster IV or higher. Therefore it is iron clad that players can summon Voors with summon monster IV. No DM involvement.
    2. Under the same section, right next to that same sentence, it says more powerful voors can be called by Planar Ally. Therefore, like summon monster IV, it is iron clad that you can call Voors 6-18hd with Greater Planar Ally. No DM Involvement.
    3. You do not require a name to call these advanced Voors therefore advanced Voors are not unique.
    4. Therefore Advanced Creatures are not Unique.
    5. Since "Not Unique" means "Lots Exist", you can call advanced creatures with Planar Ally, Planar Binding, and Gate.


    Simulacrum
    Since advanced creatures are not unique, lots exist, therefore lots of 36hd Pit Fiends exist therefore you can create a Simulacrum of a 36hd Pit Fiend with Eschew Materials or other material component ignorers to create a 18hd Pit Fiend simulacrum and skip all the halving rule hassle.


    Everything comes down to whether Advanced Creatures are Unique or not.
    Prove to me that they are and you win the argument. Simple as that. I think I've proven that they aren't unique.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 12:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    So, because one monster has rules involving more powerful versions of itself (and there's absolutely NO CHANCE it refers to the Dreadful Lasher, no sirree!) all monsters can therefore be advanced infinitely and are totally suitable for PC use?
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