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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So, because one monster has rules involving more powerful versions of itself (and there's absolutely NO CHANCE it refers to the Dreadful Lasher, no sirree!) all monsters can therefore be advanced infinitely and are totally suitable for PC use?
    Two monsters. Dwarven Ancestor and Voor. They aren't new rules. They are evidence. Examples. There is no "Dreadful Lasher" for Dwarven Ancestors. Since D&D is very unclear about a lot of things, when an official example (especially a non-stat-block example) clarifies a rule directly or indirectly (in this case about whether planar binding can call advanced creatures) you jump on it.

    Not infinitely, the limit is the stat block.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Two monsters. Dwarven Ancestor and Voor. They aren't new rules. They are evidence. Examples. There is no "Dreadful Lasher" for Dwarven Ancestors. Since D&D is very unclear about a lot of things, when an official example (especially a non-stat-block example) clarifies a rule directly or indirectly (in this case about whether planar binding can call advanced creatures) you jump on it.

    Not infinitely, the limit is the stat block.
    Okay. Find me the same text for a Pit Fiend.

    Alternatively, find me the RAW that states, if it's true about one monster, it's true about EVERY monster.

    Because to me, it seems like they included that because it's EXCEPTIONAL, not because it's ordinary. If that was true of every monster, you wouldn't NEED a note to explain that. It'd just be something you can do.
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  3. - Top - End - #33

    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Okay. Find me the same text for a Pit Fiend.

    Alternatively, find me the RAW that states, if it's true about one monster, it's true about EVERY monster.

    Because to me, it seems like they included that because it's EXCEPTIONAL, not because it's ordinary. If that was true of every monster, you wouldn't NEED a note to explain that. It'd just be something you can do.
    Quote Originally Posted by ADVANCED DWARF ANCESTORS
    Although the size and appearance of the statue does not change, the spirit within might be that of a very powerful warrior. A dwarf ancestor can have up to 18 Hit Dice (the maximum allowed by the greater planar ally spell) but is still Large size.
    Advancement 6Ė18 HD (Large); see text
    Quote Originally Posted by Advancement
    Advancement

    The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die. (See Improving Monsters.)
    As you can see, WotC repeats general rules that don't do anything. So "they pointed it out therefore this is unique to this creature only" is not a real argument.

    Voors can be called by planar ally because it's an outsider. By your logic any creature without a Planar Ally entry cannot be called because, as you put it, WotC wouldn't NEED to explain that you can call a typical Voor with a Planar Ally spell if you could before.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    This is irrelevant. All creatures have an advancement entry. The Dwarf Ancestor section does absolutely nothing but repeat the information in the statblock.
    All creatures have advancement entries, but not all creatures have entire sections called "Advanced [creature name]" that state that such higher-HD versions do exist. That, coupled with your line about advanced ancestors requiring a higher level version of planar ally being in the very next section, points pretty strongly to Dwarf Ancestor being an exception, or at the least being a different enough entry that it doesn't count as evidence that any and all advanced version of creatures definitely exist at large.

    It says "more powerful voors". Plural. So unless you have a 2nd advanced Voor statblock the Dreadful Lasher is not evidence of anything.
    Logic flaw: two Dreadful Lashers is just as much plural Voors as two different advanced Voors is, so you have not refuted the claim that this, by specifically publishing statblocks of advanced versions, doesn't count as evidence that any or all advanced monsters must therefore exist.



    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    You know what, if we're gonna do this, lets be organized. Since I'm the sole opponent to all of you, I will lay out my reasoning and evidence and you guys post your disagreements at each section.


    Planar Binding and Ally
    1. Planar Binding and ally can call creatures up to 12hd.
    2. Generic Creatures require no names.
    3. Specific unique individual creatures requires names to call.

    Q: Are Advanced Creatures generic or unique?
    A: Unknown at this time. Probably not.


    Monster Manual IV
    1. For Voors, under "For Player Characters", it says you can summon Voors with Summon Monster IV or higher. Therefore it is iron clad that players can summon Voors with summon monster IV. No DM involvement.
    2. Under the same section, right next to that same sentence, it says more powerful voors can be called by Planar Ally. Therefore, like summon monster IV, it is iron clad that you can call Voors 6-18hd with Greater Planar Ally. No DM Involvement.
    3. You do not require a name to call these advanced Voors therefore advanced Voors are not unique.
    4. Therefore Advanced Creatures are not Unique.
    5. Since "Not Unique" means "Lots Exist", you can call advanced creatures with Planar Ally, Planar Binding, and Gate.


    Simulacrum
    Since advanced creatures are not unique, lots exist, therefore lots 36hd Pit Fiends exist therefore you can create a Simulacrum of a 36hd Pit Fiend with Eschew Materials or other material component ignorers to create a 18hd Pit Fiend and skip all the halving rule hassle.


    Everything comes down to whether Advanced Creatures are Unique or not.
    Prove to me that they are and you win the argument. Simple as that. I think I've proven that they aren't unique.

    Logic flaw: You're pinning everything on whether advanced-HD versions of monsters are unique or not, but that doesn't really matter at all. Even if they're not unique, all that means is that if they do exist, you can call them with said spells(up the HD limit of whichever spell it is). It doesn't imply that they actually do exist (prior to DM creation of them, which is the real question here). For the record, if they do exist, I don't think they're unique. I just don't think that it matters to the question of whether they exist at all.

    So far your only evidence in support of them existing is the entries for Dwarf Ancestor and Voor, and those entries are at best questionable, given their inclusion of specific text stating that the advanced versions of them do already exist, in favor of all advanced monsters existing

  5. - Top - End - #35

    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Logic flaw: You're pinning everything on whether advanced-HD versions of monsters are unique or not, but that doesn't really matter at all. Even if they're not unique, all that means is that if they do exist, you can call them with said spells(up the HD limit of whichever spell it is). It doesn't imply that they actually do exist (prior to DM creation of them, which is the real question here). For the record, if they do exist, I don't think they're unique. I just don't think that it matters to the question of whether they exist at all.

    So far your only evidence in support of them existing is the entries for Dwarf Ancestor and Voor, and those entries are at best questionable, given their inclusion of specific text stating that the advanced versions of them do already exist, in favor of all advanced monsters existing
    Saying things don't exist is like saying wolves don't exist and therefore is unavailable for summon monster. I don't care what specific creatures exist/don't exist in some DM's campaign. All I care is that in the official settings, they exist. And they do.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Saying things don't exist is like saying wolves don't exist and therefore is unavailable for summon monster. I don't care what specific creatures exist/don't exist in some DM's campaign. All I care is that in the official settings, they exist. And they do.
    So, in other words, it's perfectly the DM's call to have them in their setting or not. And, considering the shenanigans that this allows, I hardly think it's an unfair nerf to say "Finding an advanced Pit Fiend (or any other unusually powerful being) is an adventure in and of itself."

    Would you object this much to a DM who says "Drown healing isn't a thing,"? or "No Tome of Battle,"?
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Saying things don't exist is like saying wolves don't exist and therefore is unavailable for summon monster. I don't care what specific creatures exist/don't exist in some DM's campaign. All I care is that in the official settings, they exist. And they do.
    You say they do, and you say that you think that because of those two monster entries, which are atypical in that they specifically say that the advanced versions they specifically allow you to call already exist. That does not logically translate into all advanced monsters existing. At all. (note that I'm not saying one way or the other whether they exist, just that those two monster entries are invalid as evidence that they do.)


    And it's nothing like saying wolves don't exist. It's like saying wolves with class levels or advanced HD don't exist, which is a totally different question. Don't muddy the issue with invalid analogies to try to make the opposition look ridiculous, please.


    As further evidence that Dwarf Ancestor definitely doesn't count, note that its line allowing calling of advanced versions says "but advanced ancestors require higher-level versions of the spell."

    It specifically says 'ancestors' not 'advanced monsters require higher-level versions of the spell' which might, maybe, indicate that it could apply to other monsters. This text limits itself to only referring to Dwarf Ancestors, and so even if you're right about the advancement section just being a repeat of the advancement line from the statblock, which I don't think you are, this cannot be used as evidence that any other advanced monster must also exist.

  8. - Top - End - #38

    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So, in other words, it's perfectly the DM's call to have them in their setting or not. And, considering the shenanigans that this allows, I hardly think it's an unfair nerf to say "Finding an advanced Pit Fiend (or any other unusually powerful being) is an adventure in and of itself."

    Would you object this much to a DM who says "Drown healing isn't a thing,"? or "No Tome of Battle,"?
    Nope I don't. If you haven't noticed already especially with my psicrystal replacement debate, I argue how things work in a RAW-and-Official-Only world. Not a Sensible-DM world.

    Conceptually there is no difference between binding a 12hd succubus or a 36hd pit fiend, but people don't care about the former and go crazy about the latter to the point they try to find text they can skew into a rule. I have a problem with this, but I have no problem with a DM saying "that's too powerful man, don't do that".


    If we're in agreement about how RAW works, then I'm gonna respond to the other part of the argument in the previous posts I ignored to focus on this one.

    Body parts are nonmagical mundane items. Wish can create 25,000gp of nonmagical items. Therefore Wish can create a corpse (or a part of a corpse if the corpse is worth more than 25,000gp. No matter how expensive the corpse is you only need a microscopic portion of it) of a 36hd pit fiend you can create simulacra out of it. In this scenario Wish created a new creature despite being dead so it can be duplicated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    And it's nothing like saying wolves don't exist. It's like saying wolves with class levels or advanced HD don't exist, which is a totally different question. Don't muddy the issue with invalid analogies to try to make the opposition look ridiculous, please.
    Its identical. If a monster manual entry says "advancement:3 HD (Medium); 4-6 HD (Large)" then all wolves of 3hd-6hd exist.

    Look at Golems. Greater Stone Golem is a max hd stone golem. Are you gonna say all the golems in between the normal and greater don't exist because they don't have a stat block?
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 01:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Its identical. If a monster manual entry says "advancement:3 HD (Medium); 4-6 HD (Large)" then all wolves of 3hd-6hd exist.
    The advancement entry in statblocks is RAW proof that they can exist at that HD. So the question at hand is whether they already do, and you haven't shown that they do, by RAW...
    Look at Golems. Greater Stone Golem is a max hd stone golem. Are you gonna say all the golems in between the normal and greater don't exist because they don't have a stat block?
    I'm not gonna say one way or the other, since as I pointed out, I'm not arguing for one side or the other of this. Just that the 2 examples your entire claim that they do exist is based on aren't valid examples to show they do.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    It doesn't say "(More powerful voors might require planar ally or greater planar ally if you so choose to have such creatures exist)". It says you can call more powerful voors with planar ally and greater planar ally. Definitive factual statement. Iron Clad. You can.
    Yes, you can - if they exist. And as stated, statblocks for more powerful voors do.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Also Golem Creation. If I create a Golem, I can advance its hd as much as I want. So your claim that advancement rules exist solely for DMs is false and is not an argument.
    I get the feeling you're repeatedly searching the SRD for "advance" and latching onto anything that comes up
    Yes, players can construct golems (even advanced ones), but they don't construct pit fiends or voors or most other monsters. There are no rules for such.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    No. You can't summon advanced creatures. The epic PrC changes this. But you can call advanced outsiders with Planar Binding and the PrC just increases the cap.
    That class feature is called "Superior Summoning" but it actually does cover calling spells as well (and lists the specific ones it affects.)

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    This is irrelevant. All creatures have an advancement entry.
    No one is disputing that. The problem is that entry is there for the DM, as stated in the advancement rules ("Adding Hit Dice", quoted above.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-05-16 at 01:45 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I get the feeling you're repeatedly searching the SRD for "advance" and latching onto anything that comes up
    Yes, players can construct golems (even advanced ones), but they don't construct pit fiends or voors or most other monsters. There are no rules for such.
    What! No! I'm repeatedly searching my memory. I think I've been around the forums long enough for you to know that I'm a construct and planar binding minionmancy fanatic. Ask me about anything not related to minionmancy, outsiders, and constructs and I'll draw blanks. Oh and add Psions to that list now. It's not a coincidence I've brought up Planar Binding in a Simulacrum debate or Golems for other examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    No one is disputing that. The problem is that entry is there for the DM, as stated in the advancement rules ("Adding Hit Dice", quoted above.)
    If we go back to my Greater Stone Golem example
    1. The Max HD version of stone golem exists because it's in the MM.
    2. If we're saying everything in the MM exists, then logically all stone golems between normal and max exist.
    3. The Max HD version of the stone golem is explicitly spelled out because it has different stats than a regularly advanced golem, mainly higher save DCs for its abilities.
    4. Therefore if the Max HD version of a creature is not explicitly spelled out, it has normal stats following the general rules for advancement.
    5. It is stupid to say max hd version of creatures don't exist because they don't deviate from the general rules for advancement
    6. Therefore max hd version of creatures exist.

    I mean, if max hd Shadesteel Golems and Stone Golems exist, why wouldn't the max hd of other creatures also exist? Because their ability's save DCs don't improve to the point WotC decided it didn't need to take up book space for a stat block?

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor
    I argue how things work in a RAW-and-Official-Only world
    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    2. If we're saying everything in the MM exists, then logically all stone golems between normal and max exist.
    1 - No, that logically doesn't follow, not as an implication of what's printed there. It would make sense for them to, but making sense isn't the W in RAW.
    2 - If it doesn't actually say the words somewhere that they all exist, why would you assume it's RAW that they do?

  13. - Top - End - #43

    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    2 - If it doesn't actually say the words somewhere that they all exist, why would you assume it's RAW that they do?
    Because the game is working under the assumption that all creatures exist? Nothing says wolves exist yet you have Summon Monster saying you can summon wolves.

    w.e I think this is as far as the discussion can go. I made my arguments but ultimately it doesn't matter as no DM is RAW-only.

    I make Scrolls of Simulacrum with Wish or Reality Revision and then UMD it with an astronomical boost to UMD, so unless someone here is saying a Scroll of Simulacrum created by Wish or Reality Revision cannot create a simulacrum of a 36hd Pit Fiend even if such a Pit Fiend doesn't exist in the game world, I'm a call it quits.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Because the game is working under the assumption that all creatures exist?
    That's just it, though. There seems to be a disagreement about what that means. Psyren and others have said that it only means that the published creatures with their published HD exist, and you're saying that they already exist in all of their HD-advanced forms as well. Your claim is the one that needs backed up here, in order to be taken as the RAW of it, and what evidence you've given doesn't seem to support your claim.

    Nothing says wolves exist yet you have Summon Monster saying you can summon wolves.
    No one is saying wolves don't exist, they're saying that advanced-HD wolves don't exist until the DM advances them, according to the 'Adding Hit Dice' rules.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    No one is saying wolves don't exist, they're saying that advanced-HD wolves don't exist until the DM advances them, according to the 'Adding Hit Dice' rules.
    Which circles back to Cosmic Descryer. How can Cosmic Descryer summon Wolves with 4 hd advancement if such wolves don't exist?
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 02:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Which circles back to Cosmic Descryer. How can Cosmic Descryer summon Wolves with 4 hd advancement if such wolves don't exist?
    Because Cosmic Descryer creates an exception by saying that it, specifically, using it's Superior Planar Summoning class feature, can conjure creatures that have been advanced by 4hd (and scaling). It does not in any way state that all such creatures have already been advanced or otherwise exist (or don't exist. We've already established that they can exist, just not that they do exist already), and it doesn't make any implication that a player could do so without use of the Superior Planar Summoning class feature. As such an exception, Cosmic Descryer offers no evidence one way or the other for advanced versions of published creatures existing.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    If we go back to my Greater Stone Golem example
    1. The Max HD version of stone golem exists because it's in the MM.
    2. If we're saying everything in the MM exists, then logically all stone golems between normal and max exist.
    3. The Max HD version of the stone golem is explicitly spelled out because it has different stats than a regularly advanced golem, mainly higher save DCs for its abilities.
    4. Therefore if the Max HD version of a creature is not explicitly spelled out, it has normal stats following the general rules for advancement.
    5. It is stupid to say max hd version of creatures don't exist because they don't deviate from the general rules for advancement
    6. Therefore max hd version of creatures exist.
    There is no "max HD golem" - the golem construction rules have no limit as long as you have enough XP and money to burn.

    There are no such rules for players to construct a Pit Fiend, max HD or otherwise. There are rules for advancing one, which only the DM can invoke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    That's just it, though. There seems to be a disagreement about what that means. Psyren and others have said that it only means that the published creatures with their published HD exist, and you're saying that they already exist in all of their HD-advanced forms as well. Your claim is the one that needs backed up here, in order to be taken as the RAW of it, and what evidence you've given doesn't seem to support your claim.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Which circles back to Cosmic Descryer. How can Cosmic Descryer summon Wolves with 4 hd advancement if such wolves don't exist?
    This Epic class has a specific dispensation to do so that breaks the normal rules - not the first epic class to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    There is no "max HD golem" - the golem construction rules have no limit as long as you have enough XP and money to burn.
    Yes there is. Stone Golems have maximum advancement of 42. So a max hd stone golem is a golem with 42hd. There are no rules for a 43hd stone golem so you can't create one even if you have enough xp and money to burn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Because Cosmic Descryer creates an exception by saying that it, specifically, using it's Superior Planar Summoning class feature, can conjure creatures that have been advanced by 4hd (and scaling). It does not in any way state that all such creatures have already been advanced or otherwise exist (or don't exist. We've already established that they can exist, just not that they do exist already), and it doesn't make any implication that a player could do so without use of the Superior Planar Summoning class feature. As such an exception, Cosmic Descryer offers no evidence one way or the other for advanced versions of published creatures existing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This Epic class has a specific dispensation to do so that breaks the normal rules - not the first epic class to do so.
    You guys are completely missing the point.

    1. Normal summon rules says you CAN'T summon creatures with advanced hd.
    2. Cosmic Descryer says you CAN summon with advanced hd.

    That is literally the only difference between Superior Planar Summoning and normal summoning. The creature still has to exist for the Cosmic Descryer's Superior Planar Summoning to pluck and drop in front of you. It does not grab a regular wolf and give it 4hd. It summons "creatures with 4 Hit Dice of advancement". The creatures already have the advancement. They did not gain any hd because of the class feature. "with" means possesses, not gain. So how can it summon a creature with 4 HD of advancement if advanced creatures don't exist?
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 04:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Yes there is. Stone Golems have maximum advancement of 42. So a max hd stone golem is a golem with 42hd. There are no rules for a 43hd stone golem so you can't create one even if you have enough xp and money to burn.





    You guys are completely missing the point.

    1. Normal summon rules says you CAN'T summon creatures with advanced hd.
    2. Cosmic Descryer says you CAN summon with advanced hd.

    That is literally the only difference between Superior Planar Summoning and normal summoning. The creature still has to exist for the Cosmic Descryer's Superior Planar Summoning to pluck and drop in front of you. It does not grab a regular wolf and give it 4hd. It summons "creatures with 4 Hit Dice of advancement". The creatures already have the advancement. They did not gain any hd because of the class feature. "with" means possesses, not gain. So how can it summon a creature with 4 HD of advancement if advanced creatures don't exist?


    It doesn't 'summon' creatures with 4HD of advancement, it 'conjures' them. The 'summoning' increase of the class feature just increases the spells' normal HD limit on which creatures are valid targets, for the specific listed spells. Does that make a RAW difference? I'm at work and can't go look up the ins and outs of conjuring as a technical term, but I suspect due to the way they contrast the wording there, it's a mechanically valid difference.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Yes there is. Stone Golems have maximum advancement of 42. So a max hd stone golem is a golem with 42hd. There are no rules for a 43hd stone golem so you can't create one even if you have enough xp and money to burn.
    Of course there are:

    "Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golemís size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golemís market price minus the cost of the special materials required."

    The 42 HD golem there is one of the typical ones they've mentioned, and you're specifically allowed to construct more HD than that if you have the cash and XP to do so. Pit Fiends don't have such an entry, because they can't be constructed by players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    It doesn't 'summon' creatures with 4HD of advancement, it 'conjures' them. The 'summoning' increase of the class feature just increases the spells' normal HD limit on which creatures are valid targets, for the specific listed spells. Does that make a RAW difference? I'm at work and can't go look up the ins and outs of conjuring as a technical term, but I suspect due to the way they contrast the wording there, it's a mechanically valid difference.
    Indeed - "conjures" is the term used for the CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Of course there are:

    "Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golemís size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golemís market price minus the cost of the special materials required."

    The 42 HD golem there is one of the typical ones they've mentioned, and you're specifically allowed to construct more HD than that if you have the cash and XP to do so. Pit Fiends don't have such an entry, because they can't be constructed by players.
    Show me the rule that says you can ignore the advancement entry of the monster. Also, golems increase in size as they grow in hd. So what hd is a colossal stone golem? Or, more likely, you cannot create a colossal stone golem because the advancement entry for the golem ends at 42.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Indeed - "conjures" is the term used for the CD.
    Is that really your argument? Advanced creatures don't exist because Cosmic Descryer modifies summon monster IX so that it conjures creatures with advanced hd? So what, summon monster IX no longer summons anything? The summon tag of the spell is removed because...? and the spell becomes create monster IX because conjure means creation instead of summoning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Summon Monster I
    The spell conjures one of the creatures
    So i guess Summon Monster I doesn't summon creatures either.

    I think this is checkmate. Explain how CD summons creatures with advanced hd if no advanced hd creatures exist or please concede. And this is on top of all the planar ally stuff so this isn't a technicality or an abnormal interaction in the rules. This is WotC intended. All advanced creatures, pit fiends included, exist by default and are generic and non-unique and available to players for summoning, calling, and simulacra.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 05:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Show me the rule that says you can ignore the advancement entry of the monster.
    I've quoted it several times now. Golems have a Construction entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    So i guess Summon Monster I doesn't summon creatures either.
    "Conjure" can be any of the three subschools actually (summon, create, or call.)

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    I think this is checkmate.
    Were we playing chess? What color was I?
    The simple fact is that no argument on this forum matters once you get to an actual table - if your DM lets you create a simulacrum of a creature with no statblock, then more power to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Well guys I appreciate the effort, but I didnít mean to start a debate like this.. I already jave a simulacrum of a standard pit devil, I just need the profile to play it :(

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I've quoted it several times now. Golems have a Construction entry.
    I believe those rules only apply for base hd->maximum advancement hd. But it's not an issue I care deeply about so lets just agree to disagree here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Were we playing chess? What color was I?
    I think you'd be white and I'd be black because black suits the power gamer more and white suits the calm guy more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The simple fact is that no argument on this forum matters once you get to an actual table - if your DM lets you create a simulacrum of a creature with no statblock, then more power to you.
    A lot of DMs stick closely to the rules so being able to prove that you're right by RAW helps.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post

    Simulacrum
    Since advanced creatures are not unique, lots exist, therefore lots of 36hd Pit Fiends exist therefore you can create a Simulacrum of a 36hd Pit Fiend with Eschew Materials or other material component ignorers to create a 18hd Pit Fiend simulacrum and skip all the halving rule hassle.
    This is what I cannot agree with. With ignore material components you can dispense with the need for snow and ruby dust, but the spell calls out the piece of the creature that must be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulacrum 3.5
    Material Component
    The spell is cast over the rough snow or ice form, and some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like) must be placed inside the snow or ice. Additionally, the spell requires powdered ruby worth 100 gp per HD of the simulacrum to be created.
    Every creature is "unique" in the sense that they are individual beings. A particular standard Pit Fiend may have different feats from another. Or may be advanced in hit dice, have class levels, and so on. Without the piece of a creature to be copied you have failed to create an "illusory duplicate" of a creature. You cannot duplicate a hypothetical creature that doesn't exist via ignore material components.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by redking View Post
    This is what I cannot agree with. With ignore material components you can dispense with the need for snow and ruby dust, but the spell calls out the piece of the creature that must be used.
    1. The piece of the creature is not a target. It's a material component. Its cost is not listed so it defaults to negligible and less than 1gp.
    2. Check out the Mirror Mephit from the Demonweb Pits. It specifically and explicitly creates a Simulacra of the PC without needing a sample of its hair and whatnot.
    3. Therefore you are wrong. WotC officially used Simulacrum without needing a piece of the creature so your claim that this costless negligible material component is not ignorable by eschew materials is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by redking View Post
    Every creature is "unique" in the sense that they are individual beings. A particular standard Pit Fiend may have different feats from another. Or may be advanced in hit dice, have class levels, and so on. Without the piece of a creature to be copied you have failed to create an "illusory duplicate" of a creature. You cannot duplicate a hypothetical creature that doesn't exist via ignore material components.
    Nope. Check out Gate. It can call Pit Fiends but not unique pit fiends. By your logic you can't call any creature with Gate. Since you can you're wrong.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-16 at 09:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    1. The piece of the creature is not a target. It's a material component. Its cost is not listed so it defaults to negligible and less than 1gp.
    2. Check out the Mirror Mephit from the Demonweb Pits. It specifically and explicitly creates a Simulacra of the PC without needing a sample of its hair and whatnot.
    3. Therefore you are wrong. WotC officially used Simulacrum without needing a piece of the creature so your claim that this costless negligible material component is not ignorable by eschew materials is wrong.
    WoTC is all over the place with simulacrums. Sometimes they need to eat. Sometimes they do not. You can't get a single non-contradictory idea about simularcum from the adventure modules.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Nope. Check out Gate. It can call Pit Fiends but not unique pit fiends. By your logic you can't call any creature with Gate. Since you can you're wrong.
    Pit Fiends exist in the multiverse, and thus can be called. What you can't call is a non-existent Pit Fiend. Of what is your simulacrum a "duplicate"?

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrark View Post
    Well guys I appreciate the effort, but I didnít mean to start a debate like this.. I already jave a simulacrum of a standard pit devil, I just need the profile to play it :(
    Happy to have helped!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Creatures don't need to physically exist for simulacrum. The effect of simulacrum is a duplicate creature. All creatures in the monster manual are creatures. All advanced creatures are creatures. So if you want to create a duplicate of an advanced creature you can. There's no reason why you cannot read about a creature in a book and create a Simulacrum of it. For example, if no wyrmling ever lived long enough to become a great wyrm, I don't see how this matters at all and a wizard should be able to create a simulacrum of one if he can ignore the material components because great wyrms are creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by redking View Post
    This is what I cannot agree with. With ignore material components you can dispense with the need for snow and ruby dust, but the spell calls out the piece of the creature that must be used.
    Quote Originally Posted by redking View Post
    WoTC is all over the place with simulacrums. Sometimes they need to eat. Sometimes they do not. You can't get a single non-contradictory idea about simularcum from the adventure modules.
    I suggest you review the rules of the game and make arguments based on those rules instead of whatever it is you're doing. Claiming that material components cannot be ignored even by SLAs which directly say they ignore all material components because you don't like how it works is one of the most ludicrous things I've read for a while. Cite a rule that says certain material components cannot be ignored even by creatures who cast it as SLAs or we're done here.

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    Default Re: Question about simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Creatures don't need to physically exist for simulacrum. The effect of simulacrum is a duplicate creature. All creatures in the monster manual are creatures. All advanced creatures are creatures. So if you want to create a duplicate of an advanced creature you can. There's no reason why you cannot read about a creature in a book and create a Simulacrum of it. For example, if no wyrmling ever lived long enough to become a great wyrm, I don't see how this matters at all and a wizard should be able to create a simulacrum of one if he can ignore the material components because great wyrms are creatures.
    Actually, I think you're right!

    1. Simulacrum DOES NOT TARGET ANYTHING.
    2. Effigies. Can you create an Effigy of a Great Wyrm even if no great wyrms exist? The answer is a resounding yes. Great Wyrms are creatures. Effigies can apply to Great Wyrms. Therefore I can create a Great Wyrm Effigy even if no great wyrms ever existed. So likewise, why can't a Simulacrum create a real creature that exists in d&d? Because they don't physically exist yet? Makes no sense. Simulacrum is essentially a template and if you can create templated creatures whose base form never existed, you can create simulacrum of such creatures too.
    3. Therefore Simulacrum can duplicate any real creature regardless of whether one physically existed in the world or not. Creatures with class levels and such are grey area (though DMGII says single classed NPCs are not unique), but all monsters in the MMs, including their advanced versions, are real creatures up for templating and creating simulacra of.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-05-18 at 07:29 AM.

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