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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Glad to see the Multiclassing thing addressed, at least.

    Some quick impressions:
    - Soul of Artifice seems very topheavy; moreso than other capstones.
    - It has 6 "-" levels and a few levels with what is essentially just ribbons on top of that. These levels coincide with either getting a new spell level or new infusion known. For comparison, other half-casters have 3 "-" levels.
    - Alchemist spell list seems a little underwhelming. Melf's Acid Arrow is about as useful as Witch Bolt, for example.
    While the Alchemists list is indeed somewhat underwhelming (especially when compared to the other subclasses), consider that basic Artificer spell list is, aside from cantrips, (almost) entirely void of damaging spells, I was very suprised to see the addition of Vitriolic Sphere to the list, since that makes it the only direct damaging spell in its list.

    So in such a list, even when MAA is indeed a pretty crappy spell, it's a damaging one, something it didn't have on its list, and its more damaging than the attack roll cantrips available from level 6 to 10(2d10 vs 4d4+Int). So it has a use for those artificers maxing Int instead of Dex.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    I’m not a super fan of artificer being the official pet class, but the Battle Smith does mechanically give me more variety in my Gish Brothers idea:
    Four brothers, one an EK, one an AT, one a Hexblade, and now one a Battle Smith, each using a different stat for attacking, each using different spell casting, each with a different style of martial combat...

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    While the Alchemists list is indeed somewhat underwhelming (especially when compared to the other subclasses), consider that basic Artificer spell list is, aside from cantrips, (almost) entirely void of damaging spells, I was very suprised to see the addition of Vitriolic Sphere to the list, since that makes it the only direct damaging spell in its list.

    So in such a list, even when MAA is indeed a pretty crappy spell, it's a damaging one, something it didn't have on its list, and its more damaging than the attack roll cantrips available from level 6 to 10(2d10 vs 4d4+Int). So it has a use for those artificers maxing Int instead of Dex.
    Some other damaging options for the same Alchemist who can use that 4d4+Int option:

    Poison Spray for 2d12+Int, using no spell slot.

    Ray of Sickness from the same 2nd level spell slot for 3d8+Int damage and a Poisoned status effect rider.

    Unrelated: I notice that the Beastmaster's infamous / controversial mechanic is coming back for the Artificer's homunculus. So it's basically a remote-controlled robot that is incapable of acting independently from you.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    I’m not a super fan of artificer being the official pet class, but the Battle Smith does mechanically give me more variety in my Gish Brothers idea:
    Four brothers, one an EK, one an AT, one a Hexblade, and now one a Battle Smith, each using a different stat for attacking, each using different spell casting, each with a different style of martial combat...
    This is awesome, I love theorycrafted teams with a fun theme!

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenIndustries View Post
    This is awesome, I love theorycrafted teams with a fun theme!
    Yeah originally it included a paladin and ranger, but with this option I can make it more fleshed out/unique, even if I hate the pet classes (personal preference)

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Some other damaging options for the same Alchemist who can use that 4d4+Int option:

    Poison Spray for 2d12+Int, using no spell slot.

    Ray of Sickness from the same 2nd level spell slot for 3d8+Int damage and a Poisoned status effect rider.

    Unrelated: I notice that the Beastmaster's infamous / controversial mechanic is coming back for the Artificer's homunculus. So it's basically a remote-controlled robot that is incapable of acting independently from you.
    Yeah, but poison spray is save instead of attack and deals poison instead of acid, and Ray of Sickness is concentration IIRC.

    EDIT: just checked, RoS is not concentration, it deals poison though, but yeah, the usefulness of MAA is diminished even further.
    Last edited by Rukelnikov; 2019-05-14 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Ray of Sickness is concentration IIRC.
    Ray of Sickness does not require Concentration.

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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    - I don't mind cantrips being thrown in but i'd like for the half caster progression to match the paladin and ranger.
    - Arcane Armament is still a bit weird in my head. It's either just Extra Attack or an infusion tax
    - I still think the extra attunements of Soul of Artifice should be spread out over your levels, especially since your infusions use attunement
    - I still don't like the alchemical homunculous. A pet for every subclass is not necessary and I would argue is detrimental (takes up design space and makes subclasses less distinguishable rather than more)
    - The later alchemist abilities are still relatively lacklustre
    - Archivist really needs toning down. level 3 grants interchageable skills + super-familiar + uber-cantrip that can be smite boosted and gets better at 6 and 14, level 6 is interplanar communication, level 14 is 2nd level spell slot teleports.
    - Artillerist is still meh. Turrets and wands thematically don't mesh well within the same subclass, I would have preferred something like a staff you plant for auras instead of the turret
    - Battle Smith also needs toning down. You get a better beastmaster companion (which is fine, but if we can have this and it works then DO IT FOR THE RANGER THEN), Int to damage ala hexblade plus all the smite spells, IDS or actionless/resourceless heals at level 6 and an improvement to all of the above at level 14
    - Infusions are still meh. The majority are boring +1s or 'choose a magic item', we need more things like the boots of the winding path and many-handed pouch. The ones that improve problematic combat options like returning weapon aren't bad but I would argue is the wrong place to put them, much like MMs ranger-exclusive TWF style.

    Overall, good but still needs work. If we iterate on what's here we could end up with something really solid.

    Edit: Oh, and still has the dead levels and lack of backwards-compatibility with previously released magic items, which you'd think an artificer would be all over.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-05-14 at 06:34 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    To those of you commenting about Artificers and them getting Cantrips:

    IIRC, when they were first introduced in 3.X, Artificers were 2/3rd casters.

    That... doesn't exist in 5E.

    This is as faithful of a representation as they can get. Personally, I'm fine with them getting cantrips. Frankly, ALL HALF CASTERS SHOULD GET CANTRIPS, if you ask me. Half casters have more magical acumen than one third casters, but half casters don't have cantrips? Really? That's just dumb as hell.

    Additionally, Artificers have spellcasting available at lv1. This makes them further unique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    To those of you commenting about Artificers and them getting Cantrips:

    IIRC, when they were first introduced in 3.X, Artificers were 2/3rd casters.

    That... doesn't exist in 5E.

    This is as faithful of a representation as they can get. Personally, I'm fine with them getting cantrips. Frankly, ALL HALF CASTERS SHOULD GET CANTRIPS, if you ask me. Half casters have more magical acumen than one third casters, but half casters don't have cantrips? Really? That's just dumb as hell.

    Additionally, Artificers have spellcasting available at lv1. This makes them further unique.
    I don't mind the cantrips, but it does bother me that they don't follow one of the patterns by just one level, they could start casting at lvl 2 and get infusions at 1, I guess the "problem" with that is the 1 lvl dip for magic arms and armor, but tbh after lvl 7 or so, it doesn't matter much.

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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    I'm just waiting for these updates to hit dnd beyond so i can start playing with them a bit more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    I don't mind the cantrips, but it does bother me that they don't follow one of the patterns by just one level, they could start casting at lvl 2 and get infusions at 1, I guess the "problem" with that is the 1 lvl dip for magic arms and armor, but tbh after lvl 7 or so, it doesn't matter much.
    I think I'd like that switch too.

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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    They also get magical tinkering at level 1, that's like the infusion version of a cantrip.
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    I don't mind the cantrips, but it does bother me that they don't follow one of the patterns by just one level, they could start casting at lvl 2 and get infusions at 1, I guess the "problem" with that is the 1 lvl dip for magic arms and armor, but tbh after lvl 7 or so, it doesn't matter much.
    I can understand your apprehension about that, but its not very different from dipping certain Cleric Domains. Heck, Forge 1 nets you heavy armor proficiency and +1 AC just for existing.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    I can understand your apprehension about that, but its not very different from dipping certain Cleric Domains. Heck, Forge 1 nets you heavy armor proficiency and +1 AC just for existing.
    Exactly, they should've just made it Infusions at 1, casting at 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Exactly, they should've just made it Infusions at 1, casting at 2.
    What exactly then does the intelligence based class have to defend themselves at the deadliest level of the adventure? It doesn't really sell the idea that you're skilled with magic from the get go if you're relegated to a crossbow until some undefined time after your career begins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    What exactly then does the intelligence based class have to defend themselves at the deadliest level of the adventure? It doesn't really sell the idea that you're skilled with magic from the get go if you're relegated to a crossbow until some undefined time after your career begins.
    You get infusions at lvl 1, which is the unique trait of the Artificers, and cantrips would be ok at 1st too.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    You get infusions at lvl 1, which is the unique trait of the Artificers, and cantrips would be ok at 1st too.
    It seems overly complicated to divorce certain rules of spellcasting from their level 1 just because you don't think they should be casting level spells at 1st level. They either get spellcasting, and all that it entails at level 1, or they get it all at level 2. It's only going to confuse those who would be learning the game for the first time on why every other class has all of their spellcasting rules found in the same block but Artificers have a seperated one for some reason.

    Why can't level 1 spellcasting be a unique feature for them as well? What does it hurt? Is it really a bad thing that someone actually decided not to dump Int for once and is able to multiclass into it?

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Very happy with the class update. In particular, sharp shooter alchemists are now possible without a feat tax!

    Fighter 1/Alchemist Artillerist X - Sharpshooter Feat, Archery FS, Repeating Heavy Crossbow +1

    2 Attacks - 1d10 + 1(Magic Bonus) +1d6 Acid(Arcane Weapon) + 5(Dex) + 10(SS)
    1 Bonus Action Attack - Force Ballista - 2d8 Force

    Alternately, taking Crossbow Expert means you can get a repeating hand crossbow and still equip a shield:

    3 Attacks - 2d6+16 each

    No need to be an Artillerist in that case, choose Fighter 1/Alchemist Battle Smith X and you don't even need to invest in Dex. Wear plate(even with movement penalty) - Easy 20AC and fire your hand crossbow using Int! Plus you have your robo dog guard you will you pepper the enemy with acid bolts. And you have half caster abilities and more infusions for things like repulsion shield and +1 plate. Tank all day. Absorb Elements for extra resilience.

    Lack of wisdom save proficiency is the main vulnerability I think.

    Strongly considering it for my next build that I get to roll for stats!

    Also bonus points for a Winged Tiefling who can get permission to create a +1 repeating musket. Rain down hellfire from the skies.
    Last edited by Wildarm; 2019-05-15 at 08:17 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    To those of you commenting about Artificers and them getting Cantrips:

    IIRC, when they were first introduced in 3.X, Artificers were 2/3rd casters.

    That... doesn't exist in 5E.

    This is as faithful of a representation as they can get. Personally, I'm fine with them getting cantrips. Frankly, ALL HALF CASTERS SHOULD GET CANTRIPS, if you ask me. Half casters have more magical acumen than one third casters, but half casters don't have cantrips? Really? That's just dumb as hell.

    Additionally, Artificers have spellcasting available at lv1. This makes them further unique.


    I agree, people overlook the fact that paladin/ranger were half (1/3?) casters in 3.5 when comparing the 5e 1/2 casters with the 5e half caster cantrips at 1st artificer & only look at the cantrips


    With that said.... The extra attack should be moved from the base class to thebattlesmith & the other casterific archtypes should get a changable cantrip wand scaled down version of the spell storing item at that level. I'd also like to see something done about the virtually stationary, time limited summon limited turrets on the artillerist as there are just too many limitations there.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    I really don't get the hate for a slightly different half caster... I think it's fine? I get they wanted the magic to kick in at 1 but not full caster.

    I agree some more work is needed. "Dead" levels are too many. Distributing extra attunement slot seems like an easy partial fix for that.

    Focus on pet is a little much for me too. Artillerist should have a non-mobile canon wand/staff option. Maybe if the pet was one of a few boon like the warlock...

    Overall, I like this version, and look foward to iterations.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodcloud View Post
    I really don't get the hate for a slightly different half caster... I think it's fine? I get they wanted the magic to kick in at 1 but not full caster.

    I agree some more work is needed. "Dead" levels are too many. Distributing extra attunement slot seems like an easy partial fix for that.

    Focus on pet is a little much for me too. Artillerist should have a non-mobile canon wand/staff option. Maybe if the pet was one of a few boon like the warlock...

    Overall, I like this version, and look foward to iterations.
    The dead levels are a hold over from casters not getting class features when they gain higher level spell slots. I think it's meant to emphasise the feel that, like Jaapleton pointed out, they're closer to a 2/3 caster than a 1/2 caster. I'm of the opinion, however, that the class feels lacking because of those gaps. It also doesn't at all justify the 7th and 11th level gaps where they don't even gain a higher level spell slot. The scaling feels off and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a player felt that those levels were unrewarding.'

    First impressions make me think that some of the empty levels could be used to allow subclass specific infusions. It's awfully convenient that 7th and 11th level both give you an additional infusion known.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    I think the greatest issue with this class still persists in that it natively gets several items that make stat gains moot. The battle smiths int to attack is a lot less meaningful when somewhere along the way you can just set various stats at 19.

    That being said, a dartthrowing sharpshooter battlesmith riding its beast is now possible...which is interesting i suppose.

    Also, ditto on the archivist wierdness. I get the sense that they wanted to add smites somehow as a subclass feature and it just got really out of hand. Im going to have to reread the section just to figure out how summoning the thing out works with actually using it, and i still just have this strong disconnect of picturing how the whole thing would play out in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    The dead levels are a hold over from casters not getting class features when they gain higher level spell slots. I think it's meant to emphasise the feel that, like Jaapleton pointed out, they're closer to a 2/3 caster than a 1/2 caster. I'm of the opinion, however, that the class feels lacking because of those gaps. It also doesn't at all justify the 7th and 11th level gaps where they don't even gain a higher level spell slot. The scaling feels off and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a player felt that those levels were unrewarding.'

    First impressions make me think that some of the empty levels could be used to allow subclass specific infusions. It's awfully convenient that 7th and 11th level both give you an additional infusion known.
    It is similar to warlocks and their infusions. There are levels of warlock that seem dead unless you notice that they get an invocation.

    I think it would look less dead if they spelled out that you get a new spell level, invocation, infusion, etc in the class level chart (I mean where the rest of the stuff is not in its own section like it is now). NOt actually needed but it would look less dead if that was added in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    The dead levels are a hold over from casters not getting class features when they gain higher level spell slots. I think it's meant to emphasise the feel that, like Jaapleton pointed out, they're closer to a 2/3 caster than a 1/2 caster. I'm of the opinion, however, that the class feels lacking because of those gaps. It also doesn't at all justify the 7th and 11th level gaps where they don't even gain a higher level spell slot. The scaling feels off and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a player felt that those levels were unrewarding.'

    First impressions make me think that some of the empty levels could be used to allow subclass specific infusions. It's awfully convenient that 7th and 11th level both give you an additional infusion known.
    That's usually true with casters where they get a new spell level at dead levels; but artificer has them at 7 9 11 13 15 & 17 with only 9 13 & 17 giving access to new spell levels. Lets be honest though, getting third level spells at level 5 is impressive... getting one at level 9?... not so much. A wizard has 8 dead levels but of those gain spells of 2@3, 3@5, 4@7, 5@9, 6@11, 7@13, 8@15, 9@17. warlock have dead levels at 5 7 9 & 18.. on all of those dead levels from warlock gets extra invocations, & except for 18 also get either a bump in spell slots or spell slot level bump. Ranger & paladin both have only 3 dead levels at 9 13 & 17. Given the number of dead levels, earning one more infusion on three of those dead levels doesn't really work the same considering the too late to be impressive access to new spell level dead levels.

    edit: @meposfire, as you can see it's not really like those warlock dead levels at all.
    Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2019-05-14 at 09:34 PM.

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    I love the new Battlesmith & the buffs to the Alchemist & Artillerist. I still think Artillerist is lacking damage & versatility. The Archivist is... really odd & cool but... odd. It kinda reminds me of a Brandon Sanderson thing. I can definitely see an Archivist reading books & summoning “minds” that are personas of books or heroes in stories. Maybe an intellect of a tome, or the warrior spirit of a sword.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    I love the new Battlesmith & the buffs to the Alchemist & Artillerist. I still think Artillerist is lacking damage & versatility. The Archivist is... really odd & cool but... odd. It kinda reminds me of a Brandon Sanderson thing. I can definitely see an Archivist reading books & summoning “minds” that are personas of books or heroes in stories. Maybe an intellect of a tome, or the warrior spirit of a sword.
    Which one? Spren?
    Last edited by Personification; 2019-05-14 at 09:54 PM.
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    Default Re: The artificer returns

    Anyone else notice the new infusion let's you use a hand crossbow with a shield? The item still technically has the ammunition trait, but the fact that you need a free hand to reload it is meaningless if it simply autoloads itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    I’m not a super fan of artificer being the official pet class, but the Battle Smith does mechanically give me more variety in my Gish Brothers idea:
    Four brothers, one an EK, one an AT, one a Hexblade, and now one a Battle Smith, each using a different stat for attacking, each using different spell casting, each with a different style of martial combat...
    Totally agree that it’s weird that Artificer is the pet class. I like the idea that a subclass has pets but feel like it should basically be just one subclass of Artificier that gets pets.

    I will disagree strongly that it’s bad that this class is a better beast master Ranger. The beast Master Ranger subclass already has a revision and is too underpowered so I am glad they are fixing the pet archetype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Personification View Post
    Which one? Spren?
    Spren, Seons, & “talking tools” in Mistborn. Any of the Cognative Realm denizens, really

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Anyone else notice the new infusion let's you use a hand crossbow with a shield? The item still technically has the ammunition trait, but the fact that you need a free hand to reload it is meaningless if it simply autoloads itself.
    I’m thinking of dual wielding hand crossbows, with buoyancy, doing John Woo action (Alchemist Hom, is a dove of course)

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