Results 1 to 28 of 28
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Voynich manuscript solved?

    According to a paper at the university of Bristol. It will still take time to decode the entire thing, however.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Opportunities to do good are everywhere but the darkness is where the light needs to be".

    -- Eliezer Yudkowski, author of "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Canadia

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    According to a paper at the university of Bristol. It will still take time to decode the entire thing, however.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last year a bunch of headlines were saying it was solved when someone decided that it was feminine hygiene manual, which was quickly debunked. I'm pretty dubious about this new claim until some more experts chime in.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    gomipile's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    According to a paper at the university of Bristol. It will still take time to decode the entire thing, however.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.


    No, someone hasnít cracked the code of the mysterious Voynich manuscript, according to the Ars Technica article I learned about this particular story from.

    But hey, I suppose time will tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    Last year a bunch of headlines were saying it was solved when someone decided that it was feminine hygiene manual, which was quickly debunked. I'm pretty dubious about this new claim until some more experts chime in.
    I figure it's just a particularly complicated GURPS sourcebook. Should be some cool options once I figure out how to use them...

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    No, someone hasnít cracked the code of the mysterious Voynich manuscript, according to the Ars Technica article I learned about this particular story from.
    Yeah, I read that and it doesn't sound very convincing, especially since someone pops up every year or so saying they've totally found the solution.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    I think the clue is found in the statement of "solved it in 2 weeks in May". S'right.


    I read on from the Ars article linked on a blog which had some fairly profoundly "debunking" things to say. Basically, if you take a small segment, apply lots of wishful thinking then yea, sure you've solved it. That the resulting text makes no sesne and doesn't seem to fit the context in which it's presented is, apparently, secondary.
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2019-05-16 at 02:58 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    I feel very convinced by the interpretation that it's an authentic 15th century fake alchemy book. If I recall correctly, the furthest it has been traced back was when it was sold to the King of Bohemia, known as a famous patron of the sciences, by an English alchemist, also known as a famous con man.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den - Sword & Sorcery, Bronze Age, Adventuring RPG Stuff

    Under the Moons of Kaendor - A Wilderness Setting of of 90s Sword & Sorcery

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Iruka's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    People are still genuinely trying to 'solve' that? I had the impression that the consensus was that it was some kind of fake, be that a hoax to make money or just nonesense for the lulz.


    "Children grow up to be people? All the children I knew grew up to be machines."
    ~Augustus von Fabelrath~

    Member of Peelee's Church of Sudden Skylight

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    shawnhcorey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The Great White North
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    It is not solved until a complete translation is made. Partial translations do not solve it.

    Claiming it is a fake or hoax carries as much weight as claiming it is solved. If it is not completely translated, then any claims are lies.
    How do you keep a fool busy? Turn upside down for answer.
    ˙ɹǝʍsuɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn uɹnʇ Ņʎsnq ןooɟ ɐ dǝǝʞ noʎ op ʍoɥ

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    gomipile's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnhcorey View Post
    It is not solved until a complete translation is made. Partial translations do not solve it.

    Claiming it is a fake or hoax carries as much weight as claiming it is solved. If it is not completely translated, then any claims are lies.
    Unless it was somehow proved that it was originally gibberish.

    If it turned out to be a hoax because it cannot be translated because there was no original plaintext for the gibberish, the statement that it is a hoax would not be a lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Friv's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnhcorey View Post
    It is not solved until a complete translation is made. Partial translations do not solve it.

    Claiming it is a fake or hoax carries as much weight as claiming it is solved. If it is not completely translated, then any claims are lies.
    Technically, theories are not lies. They can be misplaced confidence, though.

    I'm reasonably confident that the Voynich is a hoax, and there's enough evidence supporting that theory for me. Given the near-impossibility of proving a negative, I'm not sure how to prove something that old is a hoax. We're not going to find a 15th century diary discussing how the fake encryption was done.
    If you like my ideas, why not take a peek at my Patreon? New RPGs and campaigns on a constant drip!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    I've seen some claims that there are patterns in the symbols that look very similar to patterns you would find in written language. They are apparently not jumbled together at random. Such patterns are quite difficult to understand, which in turn makes them difficult to fake. But you would get these patterns easily if you start with a real text and then encode it. If that's the case, then it should be possible to decode.
    But you could still construct grammaticaly correct sentences with random verbs, nouns, and adjectives. This could perhaps make it more difficult to recognize that you're on the right path to cracking the code.

    But that's assuming that such patterns where actually found, and that such claims are not an urban myth.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den - Sword & Sorcery, Bronze Age, Adventuring RPG Stuff

    Under the Moons of Kaendor - A Wilderness Setting of of 90s Sword & Sorcery

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    Unless it was somehow proved that it was originally gibberish.

    If it turned out to be a hoax because it cannot be translated because there was no original plaintext for the gibberish, the statement that it is a hoax would not be a lie.
    I don't think that's actually possible, though. The entire point of a code or cipher is to hide the original text so well that you can't decrypt it without knowing the key, after all, so there's not really a distinction between gibberish and a really, really good cipher.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    , so there's not really a distinction between gibberish and a really, really good cipher.
    Actually there is. The very very important point that a cipher is *meant to be opened*. Hence it's got a key and lock. And you can pick that lock. Gibberish is a solid cube with no key, no locks and nothing that can be done.


    An humans do not do very good ciphers, that's the fundamental weakness in them, humans need to unlock them in almost all cases.


    And if you look at the text it's not totally random, it even has stuff that's kinda of like latin. That's the main reason people are so fascinated. It seems like it should be possible to interpret.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Actually there is. The very very important point that a cipher is *meant to be opened*. Hence it's got a key and lock. And you can pick that lock. Gibberish is a solid cube with no key, no locks and nothing that can be done.


    An humans do not do very good ciphers, that's the fundamental weakness in them, humans need to unlock them in almost all cases.


    And if you look at the text it's not totally random, it even has stuff that's kinda of like latin. That's the main reason people are so fascinated. It seems like it should be possible to interpret.
    Everything can be interpreted - our brains are geared for finding patterns even if there are none. Even if there are some linguistic hints of regularity and structure, it could still be an elaborate Lorem Ipsum - all the structure and still no messege behind it.

    As for why anyone would go to such lengths to create a nonsensical document, it could simply be a fake ancient alchemical text sold to someone for a solid price.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Actually there is. The very very important point that a cipher is *meant to be opened*. Hence it's got a key and lock. And you can pick that lock. Gibberish is a solid cube with no key, no locks and nothing that can be done.
    The point I was making is that you can't distinguish between gibberish and a cipher that you haven't got the ability to decrypt. A good cipher *should* have an output that looks like gibberish, because if it has patterns in it that might give the bad guy an opening to crack the code--e.g. a simple letter substitution cipher can't get away from the fact the most common letter in English is E, so whatever is the most common letter in the ciphertext is most likely going to also be E.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bristol, UK

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Modern cryptography is very much better than old stuff. Even WW2 Enigma was much better than what went before.

    IMHO the odds are this is just gibberish, ciphers weren't that good back in those days.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    gomipile's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Here is a relatively shallow, lightweight information-theoretic analysis of the manuscript. Based on the entropies of the text, compared to real languages:

    1: It could be that the text is meaningless, i.e. there is no plain text language, and the anomalously low entropy is the result of whatever process was used to generate the strings of characters

    2: If there is a plaintext that was encoded using a simple substitution, then this plaintext must have the same anomalously low entropy values. This then excludes most of the typical languages that might be assumed for a European MS of the 15th Century. In fact, no candidate plaintext language could yet be identified. Hawaiian, the one identified by Bennett, does not match for other reasons (as will become apparent in later pages). Some languages like Hebrew, the various Arabic languages, Persian, Armenian etc. have not yet been tested quantitatively, to my best knowledge.

    3: If there is a plaintext in one of the known languages used in European MSs of the 15th Century, then this text must have been modified by some process changing the statistics quite drastically. This change is indeed so drastic that it is no longer possible to identify the plaintext language from the Voynich MS text, and any attempts of this nature will be invalid.
    Last edited by gomipile; 2019-05-17 at 04:38 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Why am I here?

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Whether real or a hoax, I wonder how relevant it will ever be? What can a curiously good guess at what a sunflower looks like do for me?
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by that_one_kobold View Post
    And this is why I love D&D

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    I'm in favour of the ancient hoax theory, mainly for three reasons:

    1) It is known to have been in the possession of a guy who had a career of selling fake alchemy
    2) The emperor paid almost four pounds (not as the currency, as the weight) of gold for it.
    3) So many cryptologists went over it and it seems to contain almost no information that even hints at it being some sort of actual code. At this point I'm pretty confident in accepting it's gibberish.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I'm in favour of the ancient hoax theory, mainly for three reasons:

    1) It is known to have been in the possession of a guy who had a career of selling fake alchemy
    As opposed to all that real alchemy respectable alchemists have gone about selling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    2) The emperor paid almost four pounds (not as the currency, as the weight) of gold for it.
    This one seems strange to me. What does the price the thing was bought for matter in verifying if it's a legitimate thing or not? People were crushing up bones for Chinese medicine for years before we found out they were in fact some of the oldest known records of a once thought mythical Chinese Dynasty? The price paid or even the value other people attribute doesn't really say wheter it's real or not.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    shawnhcorey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The Great White North
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    How do you keep a fool busy? Turn upside down for answer.
    ˙ɹǝʍsuɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn uɹnʇ Ņʎsnq ןooɟ ɐ dǝǝʞ noʎ op ʍoɥ

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    As opposed to all that real alchemy respectable alchemists have gone about selling.
    As opposed to texts written by actual alchemists who were convinced of what they were writing? Yes.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    This one seems strange to me. What does the price the thing was bought for matter in verifying if it's a legitimate thing or not?
    The higher the price, the more work a prospective hoaxer is likely to put into the hoax.
    I write a horror blog in my spare time.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Yeah. No one's going to write an entire book of nonsense if it's not going to pay well. A real alchemy book at least has uses.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    Meh. Cryptology advanced by leaps and bounds from the middle ages, not to mention the astronomical difference between the computational powers at our disposal right now and back then. I don't believe there can be any middle ages code that couldn't be cracked by a professor and a few grad students within a couple weeks.

    I personally think that the patterns that people find in it allude to how the original guy (the con man or whatnot) couldn't have written a perfectly random string on account of being a human.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2019-05-18 at 04:15 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Orc in the Playground
     
    kinglinus1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    The Gildenswery Inn,
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Voynich manuscript solved?

    All of you are wrong. Cueball's solved it.

    Whether loved or hated, all characters die. A minority opinion holds that the righteous ones are really just Put on a Bus until the head writer's son gets back from his coffee break.

    Thank you Honest Tiefling for this Rocking Avatar, Man I like that Tiefling.

    "Sorry I couldnít get on yesterday, personal stuff happened. Why are we lynching a boat?"

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: solved?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    The higher the price, the more work a prospective hoaxer is likely to put into the hoax.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah. No one's going to write an entire book of nonsense if it's not going to pay well. A real alchemy book at least has uses.
    Sure, both are fair points but we're not talking about the fraudster. The Emperor paid a price for it. Or didn't. There's no proof that 600 ducats were given over for the book. We're just told that it was.

    Dr. Raphael, a tutor in the Bohemian language to Ferdinand III, then King of Bohemia, told me the said book belonged to the Emperor Rudolph and that he presented to the bearer who brought him the book 600 ducats. He believed the author was Roger Bacon, the Englishman. On this point I suspend judgement; it is your place to define for us what view we should take thereon, to whose favor and kindness I unreservedly commit myself and remain
    This is from a letter written to the second for sure known owner of the book from the friend of the first person who owned it, after the first owner died.
    Last edited by Razade; 2019-05-19 at 07:38 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •