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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    Assuming charge distance? Have your familiar stand between you and the barbarian.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

    Sure. Tiny Familiar blocks small or medium barbarian. Large barbarian overruns it.
    Just don't pick a bat or toad and you are good vs a half-orc or other normal-sized race.

    If he's large, you'll have to blow a feat for a blink dog or something I guess.
    Last edited by Elkad; 2019-05-17 at 07:20 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    Sure. Tiny Familiar blocks small or medium barbarian. Large barbarian overruns it.
    Just don't pick a bat or toad and you are good vs a half-orc or other normal-sized race.

    If he's large, you'll have to blow a feat for a blink dog or something I guess.
    Octopi are valid familiars according to stormwrack, and are small, so they can block large creatures.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    Sure. Tiny Familiar blocks small or medium barbarian. Large barbarian overruns it.
    Just don't pick a bat or toad and you are good vs a half-orc or other normal-sized race.

    If he's large, you'll have to blow a feat for a blink dog or something I guess.
    I did just mention a Wizard can trade familiar for AC. A medium creature more than suffices (and doesn't cost XP to boot). Wild Cohort likewise. But failproofing Initiative sounds better to me.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    I looked into Deep Slumber, but it is Range: Close, so I would need to wait until the Barbarian is dangerously close to use it...

    However, he does have literally +1 to Will Saves, so I have a solid shot of killing him if I do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    Touch of Idiocy is good, but I'm afraid to get into melee range.

    I like the Animated Object idea, but I really am hoping to get a one-shot scenario. I really want to show him just how ridiculous optimized spellcasters can be.
    Read up on ready action. "If he moves into melee range, I cast deeper slumber on him." Replace deep slumber with any encounter ending spell of your choice.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Andezzar View Post
    Read up on ready action. "If he moves into melee range, I cast deeper slumber on him." Replace deep slumber with any encounter ending spell of your choice.
    Can't ready Deep Slumber anyway.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Can't ready Deep Slumber anyway.
    Oh I missed the casting time. Just use a standard action encounter ender. E.g. shivering touch and a lesser metamagic rod.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    We haven't heard many of the details, but let's all remember that this is a built-to-purpose Wizard, but an actual already existing Barbarian character. A lot of things that a hypothetical level 5 Barbarian could be built to do, this one wont be able to. We've all been assuming that losing initiative is really bad, but for most level 5 Barbarians, their total move speed is only 40, so even if they win initiative, they can't Charge in their first round. 100 feet away is too far., unless they are a race with at least a 40ft move speed naturally, or they have some other move speed increases already. StevenC21 hasn't told us that detail yet. Unless they do, this fight is way easier than we've all been preparing for.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Besides the Greataxe +1, do we know how the Barbarian is specc'ed?

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    20 STR, 13 DEX, 18 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 12 CHA.

    Anything else you need to know? He is wearing studded leather armor for AC 14.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Do you know his feats?

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    20 STR, 13 DEX, 18 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 12 CHA.

    Anything else you need to know? He is wearing studded leather armor for AC 14.
    His move speed, after adding his Barbarian Fast Movement, and any special move features/upgrades he has, like the Animal Devotion Troacctid mentioned, or anything that lets him move abnormally?

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    He has power attack and cleave.

    Move speed 40 ft.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    This isn't a fair fight at all. It sounds like the barbarian player doesn't have much insight into material outside of core or even outside of being a melee beatstick. He probably doesn't know many arcane spells or their ramifications. You won't need much strategy to win. The ideas in this thread have definitely gone overboard for what he has in store.
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    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    He has power attack and cleave.
    He's hoping that he'll drop a second wizard after he completely dominates the first?
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Hey, he chose the feats... I don't claim to understand his motivation.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Vizzerdrix's Avatar

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Yeeesh. A sling and the mount spell will do it.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    So glitterdust/web/shatter/fly and a bunch of core only stuff easily wins this

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    This isn't a fair fight at all. It sounds like the barbarian player doesn't have much insight into material outside of core or even outside of being a melee beatstick. He probably doesn't know many arcane spells or their ramifications. You won't need much strategy to win. The ideas in this thread have definitely gone overboard for what he has in store.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    So glitterdust/web/shatter/fly and a bunch of core only stuff easily wins this
    It's just a newbie barbarian who've never even smelled an arena, let alone been on one.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    So glitterdust/web/shatter/fly and a bunch of core only stuff easily wins this
    Glitterdust, web, and fly, sure, but what would shatter do? Wouldn't hurt the barbarian, and wouldn't hurt his magical greataxe?

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Glitterdust, web, and fly, sure, but what would shatter do? Wouldn't hurt the barbarian, and wouldn't hurt his magical greataxe?
    Everyone knows barbarian rage is directly tied to their loincloth. Shatter it (easy because barbarians rarely bathe) and he looses his power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Glitterdust, web, and fly, sure, but what would shatter do? Wouldn't hurt the barbarian, and wouldn't hurt his magical greataxe?
    Destroy his nonmagical armor. With Web and blind the wizard could then beat the barbarian by stabbing with a knife or sling. No studded leather + a -4 to dex from entangled + a -2 from blind means an ac of 7 or less if barbarian is raging. This gives a wizard 75% chance of hitting wit nearly anything. It's more about embarrassing with wasteING spells in inefficient ways.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    SirNibbles's Avatar

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    In a 1v1 you might want to go for Torrent of Tears (Complete Mage, page 119) to hit the enemy with Blinded and Sickened with a single spell instead of using Glitterdust.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Closer range needed though, which could potentially be problematic if the barbarian actually makes the Will save.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    Hello all! Before I get into the bulk of my post, I need to give some backstory.

    I am the Dungeon Master of a small group of players. As I often do, I was talking about how much I love Wizards after our session, and how I think they are the best class.

    One of my players thinks they suck, and that his Barbarian could easily defeat one. I know this sounds ridiculous, of course. I took him up on his offer. And now, I come to you all!

    I need a level 5 Wizard who's only job is to kill that Barbarian! The foe in question is a level 5 Half-Orc Barbarian who has rolled max HP (Our wizard will get the same), landing him a total of 75 HP. As such, direct damage is off the table, though I do know that it's never really a good choice...

    EVERYTHING first party (including Dragon Mag) is allowed without restriction. I want to show this kid just how insignificant his little axe swinger is...

    My issue is that most of my builds come online at 6th level. As it is, I made one Human Wizard (6th level), who abused Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD) for a guaranteed 18 DEX damage, no save, no attack roll. The issue is, again, he's level 6, and I need that 5th feat to grab Arcane Thesis: Lahm's Finger Darts.

    So... does anyone here know a level 5 Wizard build that would be able to stomp over a level 5 Barbarian? If it was anything before this, I'd just load up on DC boosters and cast Sleep... but that only works up to 4 Hit Dice. This is a very inconvenient spot as it is.

    So... any ideas?

    Edit: We are starting at a distance of 100 feet. So Range: Close spells won't be optimal.
    So you're the DM, you're bringing in the might of forum knowledge and everything is allowed even Dragon Mag. He keeps his current character without rebuilding. Not exactly a fair fight.

    As for the argument I'd say depends on level of optimization. More of it opens up more tricks to the wizard than it does the barbarian, so both being equal the wizard pulls ahead. Though I'm assuming equal optimization. High optimization on one character only is a bit one sided regardless of the class, and will probably curb stomp the other regardless. Heck I might put my money on an everything-optimized no limits commoner 5 over a wizard 5 someone through together. Not to beat the wizard, but to curb stomp him. Though that depends on how far the cheese is truly allowed to go.

    Now as for a DM in a hurry to throw together a 4v4 wizard fight by tomorrow with just vanilla spells (no NI loops, no combos, no week prep of divinations, etc.)... it's over in a couple rounds with barely a scratch on the party. 1v1 you could have luck on your side and hope the barbarian rolls low and/or you pump a save-or-X spell for a save you know he's low in. Without allies to rescue him it favors a quick save or lose like deep slumber. And PCs vs monsters it's yet another story.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but Shivering Touch with the Sudden Maximse feat. 18 Dex damage as touch attack is fairly lethal at level 5.

    Cast invisibility first and use your familiar to deliver it for maximum safety.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    So when is this fight supposed to go down? Let us know how it turns out!

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    It happens today!

    I'll try to remember to make another post afterwards in this thread.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    It happens today!

    I'll try to remember to make another post afterwards in this thread.
    Anything yet? Seemed amusing...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Oh, yes it was.

    So, he agreed once again to the fight. Just had to ensure that he was consenting.

    So then, we started. 100 feet away.

    Round 1:

    He wins Initiative and charges to 20 feet away.

    I cast Glitterdust. He fails his save and is blinded. I move 15 feet to the left to get out of position.

    Round 2:

    He, now blinded, charges again but obviously misses me.

    I cast Lahms Finger Darts and get Max on it, for a total of 8 DEX damage.

    Round 3:

    He begins running away.

    I move 30 feet towards him and cast Slow. He fails his save.

    Round 4:

    He continues running, now at half speed.

    I proceed to recast Lahms Finger Darts, dealing 5 more DEX damage. He now has DEX 0. He can no longer move.

    Round 5:

    I approach and shank him.

    Round 6:

    Shank.

    Round 7:

    Shank.

    Round 8:

    Shank again, coup de Grace.

    All in all, he was somewhat embarrassed but took it well. It was enlightening for him.

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