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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    I just realized (rather late) that you can fatigue the barbarian simply by waiting, and then exhaust them with kelgore's grave mist.

    So...
    Turn 0: cast nerveskitter.
    Turn 1: cast alter self or fly, fly up.
    Turn 2: cast invisibility, fly up.
    Turns 3-10: wait for Rage to end, move into Medium range.
    Turn 11: cast kelgore's grave mist.

    At this point, the barbarian is exhausted and moving at half speed (I assume they also can't run or charge, as with fatigue). Kill them with a crossbow, or something.

    If the barbarian has multiple uses of Rage, you'll need to wait a bit longer, but that's fine.
    Rage is only once per encounter (regardless of how many uses per day you have), so no worries there.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Deep Slumber is what newbie wizards try to cast at arenas. They die, but on the flip side they learn what its casting duration is.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    I ran one of these experiments with a player who thought warlocks could not be strong combatants, flight can make a big difference, he was using a necromancer.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    If you want to drive the point home, do it Core-only. Fly, and a wand of Magic Missile.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    If you want to drive the point home, do it Core-only. Fly, and a wand of Magic Missile.
    You could use a Tanglefoot Bag to add insult to injury.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    This seems quite good. There's a bug with Catalogues of Enlightenment prereqs? Disregarding that though, the ability to fly 70' is exceptional and readied actions to shoot a bow on cast are certainly effective.
    The Sandstorm version of Touchstone requires 8 ranks or a touchstone key worth 250 gp. I'd go with the key. (Probably build it into the weapon.)

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    The Sandstorm version of Touchstone requires 8 ranks or a touchstone key worth 250 gp. I'd go with the key. (Probably build it into the weapon.)
    A level 1 Barbarian can't afford that.

    However, you could swap with Air Heritage to get it at level 3. (Air Heritage has no prereqs but remains inoperative until you get flight at level 5.)

    But, can you use a planar site with the "Touchstone" feat? Or do you need the "Planar Touchstone" feat for that?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Whatever you do, don't use Fly.

    The goal here is crush the barbarian not simply in body but also in spirit. To break him, he has to think the contest was fair. Flying out of reach like a coward will not sit well with him and the player may accuse you of resorting to cheats. Stay on the ground, preferably in close range, and beat him fair and square like the cosmological commander you are. With spells that enable, disable, and fable his label. You're not the weak one here. Prove it.

  9. - Top - End - #39

    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    Whatever you do, don't use Fly.

    The goal here is crush the barbarian not simply in body but also in spirit. To break him, he has to think the contest was fair. Flying out of reach like a coward will not sit well with him and the player may accuse you of resorting to cheats. Stay on the ground, preferably in close range, and beat him fair and square like the cosmological commander you are. With spells that enable, disable, and fable his label. You're not the weak one here. Prove it.
    Do all of them. First with the Animated Object. Then with fly. Then with invisibility. Then with Web, Glitterdust, etc. Then by Gishing. Then by readying a 5ft step with a longspear.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    A level 1 Barbarian can't afford that.

    However, you could swap with Air Heritage to get it at level 3. (Air Heritage has no prereqs but remains inoperative until you get flight at level 5.)

    But, can you use a planar site with the "Touchstone" feat? Or do you need the "Planar Touchstone" feat for that?
    You're starting at level 5, so money isn't an issue.

    Touchstone and Planar Touchstone are explicitly cross-compatible, so that's not an issue either.

    I did forget that barbarians don't have Balance as a class skill, so the Twisted Charge skill trick is off the table, which is annoying, since it would have been handy for enabling dives and/or preventing Abrupt Jaunt from breaking the straight line of a charge.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Fly and Invisibility are pretty much instant wins. You can also go Sleet Storm into Kelgore's Grave Mist (Player's Handbook II, page 116). He can't see, can barely move, is Fatigued, and takes damage every round.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Nothing but a greataxe? At all?

    Yeah,
    Step 1: Fly.
    Step 2: Literally anything you want, since he can no longer reach you, at all. Lots of good suggestions already, but once you're impervious to anything he does, you could literally kill him with cantrips.
    This is what I was going to say. Once you are airborne, there is nothing he can do without a ranged weapon.
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    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    I dunno, he could have taken Animal Devotion.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I dunno, he could have taken Animal Devotion.
    Starting at the stated 100ft away, your 60ft fly speed is still going to be able to stay out of range of his 40ft (as Overland Flight).

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Touchstone and Planar Touchstone are explicitly cross-compatible, so that's not an issue either.
    Good, thanks.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    If you really want to rub it in, you can use level 0 and level 1 spells and no Metamagic:

    Caltrops (Spell Compendium, page 42) halves the Barbarian's movement for 24 hours. Just ready an action to cast it, probably vs a charge. Your CL will allow you to affect 4 squares, resulting in a good chance of the Barbarian being damaged (and thus slowed/stopped).

    If you want to be really cheap, take Bane Magic (Humanoid: Orc) from Heroes of Horror, page 119. Now all your spells deal an extra 2d6. That's 2d6+1 from Caltrops, and 2d6+1/round from Thunderhead (Spell Compendium, page 219), and 3d6/round from Grave Mist.

    There are so many options that lead to victory, it's all about what flavour you want.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    He has nothing but a +1 Greataxe.
    Flying feels cheesy. Lets stay on the ground.

    Buffs: Cast Phantom Steed (Move 100' at CL5)

    That's all you need.

    Ride in circles around him (double-moving at -4 to hit if necessary) and plink him to death with your crossbow. Even if you need a nat20 to hit him, you'll win eventually. You've got 3000 rounds to manage it. Bring lots of quarrels.

    Optimized mode. Be an elf and use a longbow.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    Flying feels cheesy. Lets stay on the ground.

    Buffs: Cast Phantom Steed (Move 100' at CL5)

    That's all you need.

    Ride in circles around him (double-moving at -4 to hit if necessary) and plink him to death with your crossbow. Even if you need a nat20 to hit him, you'll win eventually. You've got 3000 rounds to manage it. Bring lots of quarrels.

    Optimized mode. Be an elf and use a longbow.
    Or a halfling with a sling.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    d6 Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    Flying feels cheesy. Lets stay on the ground.

    Buffs: Cast Phantom Steed (Move 100' at CL5)

    That's all you need.

    Ride in circles around him (double-moving at -4 to hit if necessary) and plink him to death with your crossbow. Even if you need a nat20 to hit him, you'll win eventually. You've got 3000 rounds to manage it. Bring lots of quarrels.

    Optimized mode. Be an elf and use a longbow.

    Isn't that spell a 10 minute casting time?
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    Isn't that spell a 10 minute casting time?
    Yes, you need time to buff to cast it.

    Which you may not get, but I still thought it was worth mentioning for the hilarity factor. It's the least wizard way I could think of to win. A single spell that has no effect on the target.


    Next mission. Win the fight with your familiar only. Would be easy with a flying outsider at L7, but at L5 I'm not seeing an easy way.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    Starting at the stated 100ft away, your 60ft fly speed is still going to be able to stay out of range of his 40ft (as Overland Flight).
    45 ft, not 40, and he's probably charging while you're single-moving, so it's not that simple.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Invisible spell, fell drain, arcane thesis magic missile, improved init and a hummingbird familiar. Cast fly round 1, next 5 rounds hit him with those level 1 fell drain magic missiles, round 6 he dies. Letting him raise as a wight 24 hours later and command undeading him is optional. If you want to speed things up, add in twin spell and sanctum spell, and use the sonic snap cantrip for level 2 spell slot double negative levels each round.
    Last edited by Crake; 2019-05-17 at 03:12 AM.
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    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Arcane Thesis requires level 6.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Arcane Thesis requires level 6.
    Ah right, so it does, i thought it was level 5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    All the prep for winning init is good but you might need a contingency plan in case you lose initiative anyhow.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    All the prep for winning init is good but you might need a contingency plan in case you lose initiative anyhow.
    Never rule out that he might roll a nat and/or you roll a 1, are there any items you can afford that will give you a mulligan on the roll, creates fast difficult terrain or just nullifes charges in another way?

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Lets start off with our worst-case scenario. If we can find a win there, we can find a win anywhere.

    What is our Worst-case scenario?
    Barbarian wins initiative
    Barbarian gets into melee range and attacks.
    Barbarian hits, crits, confirms, and rolls max damage.

    Assuming 22 STR (18 base +4 rage) and full power attack, we're looking at:
    Greataxe +7 (+1 Enhancement, +6 Strength, +5 BAB, -5 Power Attack) melee, 1d12 + 20 (+6 Str, +3 two-handed (1/2 STR), +1 enhancement, +10 Power Attack)
    Max damage is thus 32, which is 96 on a x3 Crit.

    So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

    How do we prevent this from happening?






    Edit: Also, what kind of prep time do we have? Do we start the battle with buffs or no? Hour/lvl+ buffs only?
    Last edited by Akkristor; 2019-05-17 at 03:33 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Akkristor View Post
    Lets start off with our worst-case scenario. If we can find a win there, we can find a win anywhere.

    What is our Worst-case scenario?
    Barbarian wins initiative
    Barbarian gets into melee range and attacks.
    Barbarian hits, crits, confirms, and rolls max damage.

    Assuming 22 STR (18 base +4 rage) and full power attack, we're looking at:
    Greataxe +7 (+1 Enhancement, +6 Strength, +5 BAB, -5 Power Attack) melee, 1d12 + 20 (+6 Str, +3 two-handed (1/2 STR), +1 enhancement, +10 Power Attack)
    Max damage is thus 32, which is 96 on a x3 Crit.

    So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

    How do we prevent this from happening?
    Well, you don't have access to most defenses before you can act. Failproofing Initiative would be an interesting option; Gray Elf Generalist with Hummingbird and the Elf racial gets +6, Improved Initiative is +4, +5 Dex, +5 Nerveskitter = +20. We'd need +3 more assuming the Barbarian isn't investing more than +4 Dex in it. +2 Dex item is doable if a tad pricey and I'm sure you can get some competence or whatever bonuses.

    Alternatively, walking around at all times using Tower Shield for Total Cover works and being hidden well enough that the Barb can't Spot you. Also just having the initiative start at over 90' range or with terrain that prevents charging works as does carrying around ****ers that intercept the movement (Animal Companion + Wild Cohort would allow you to have some bodyblockers around and this level is high enough for Command Undead to be bringing something along as well).

    All of this is kinda tentative; it's pretty hard to win assuming opponent only rolls 20s and you only roll 1s this low. Though it's doable of course, if you put your mind to it.
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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Akkristor View Post
    Lets start off with our worst-case scenario. If we can find a win there, we can find a win anywhere.

    What is our Worst-case scenario?
    Barbarian wins initiative
    Barbarian gets into melee range and attacks.
    Barbarian hits, crits, confirms, and rolls max damage.

    Assuming 22 STR (18 base +4 rage) and full power attack, we're looking at:
    Greataxe +7 (+1 Enhancement, +6 Strength, +5 BAB, -5 Power Attack) melee, 1d12 + 20 (+6 Str, +3 two-handed (1/2 STR), +1 enhancement, +10 Power Attack)
    Max damage is thus 32, which is 96 on a x3 Crit.

    So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

    How do we prevent this from happening?





    Edit: Also, what kind of prep time do we have? Do we start the battle with buffs or no? Hour/lvl+ buffs only?
    No buffs, no prep.

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    Default Re: Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Akkristor View Post
    Lets start off with our worst-case scenario.
    <math snipped>

    So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

    How do we prevent this from happening?
    Assuming charge distance? Have your familiar stand between you and the barbarian.
    Of course your familiar will die instead, but that won't cost you the fight, just some XP.

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