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    Default No martial controller?

    I noticed there isn't a martial controller, the closest is the Seeker. Was this just an oversight or is this not possible within the framework of the game?

    Edit: asking because I want to make a martials only game/setting but the lack of a controller option kind of shoehorns people.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-05-15 at 08:37 PM.
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I noticed there isn't a martial controller, the closest is the Seeker. Was this just an oversight or is this not possible within the framework of the game?
    It's possible, largely because Controller is a *very* poorly defined (from a mechanical perspective) role: it's the only role that is literally defined *exclusively* by its power selection and is intended to include both control/debillitative effects as well as large AoEs. I blame the entirety of this upon the assumption that Wizards should be the "default" controller while attempting to preserve the ridiculous "Wizards can do anything with the right spell" design that Wizards have had in the past. Personally, I find it to be a better solution to just separate the AoE from the control effects and just make artillery and controller separate role (like they do with the NPC roles).

    However, there *is* indeed a Martial Controller. The Hunter Ranger from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom is, in fact a controller. The problem is that, compared to pretty much every other Controller in the game, it's a worse controller and a better striker (it's in that weird Striker/Controller hybrid region that Warlock finds itself in), since it doesn't get much more than an area burst 1 (albeit a high damage and extremely long range area burst 1) for AoE purposes and it's only got single target control effects (albeit higher than normal damage ones with extremely long range).

    You could feasibly reinterpret Seeker as a Martial Controller (barring a few of the more explicitly supernatural effects), but Seeker isn't particularly good because it lacks feat and splatbook support (ironically, Hunter Ranger MC Seeker is extremely good because Hunters are pretty much entirely Ranged Basic driven and one of the few Seeker feats allows Hunters to add their DEX twice to Ranged Basic damage rolls). Thankfully, Controller is probably the least necessary of the roles so it's not a huge loss to your party's functionality not to have one (a good Controller with the right powers can turn a fight into a laugh, but nothing they bring to the party is what I would consider "essential", like the Nova/DPR capability of a Striker, the consolidation of incoming damage like a Defender, or the in-combat healing and increased HS efficiency of a Leader).
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Would it be OP to just stuff the good parts of seeker and hunter ranger together while playing alongside Fighter, Rogue, Warlord and Ranger? I want to have variety available and some people like controller types.
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Would it be OP to just stuff the good parts of seeker and hunter ranger together while playing alongside Fighter, Rogue, Warlord and Ranger? I want to have variety available and some people like controller types.
    A reasonably easy way to do this is just go hybrid Ranger|Seeker. It tends to be a little more striker, but you spend a feat to convert the Ranger at-will into the burst 1 RBA and take a Seeker RBA to feed the now Ranger burst 1...

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    It really is a hole in the system isn't it?

    4th ed specifically invites "reskinning" to change the flavor text.

    So you could take any controller and declare them "martial" with minimal game effect. You have a martial wizard? Call them a "Grenadier" They make their alchemical grenades and carry them on bandoleers.

    Redescribe your slide effect as "A hail of arrows forcing the target to duck for cover"

    Your martial druid doesn't turn into a bear, he's a beserker who goes feral and uses a pair of gauntlet axes for beastform powers
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Would it be OP to just stuff the good parts of seeker and hunter ranger together while playing alongside Fighter, Rogue, Warlord and Ranger? I want to have variety available and some people like controller types.
    Not OP, should be fine. Though fighters and rogues can lean pretty far toward controller if that's how you want to build 'em.

    Out of curiousity, in your martials-only game, will you be allowing MC or hybridization for nonmartial classes? That would open things up too, controller-wise.
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Not OP, should be fine. Though fighters and rogues can lean pretty far toward controller if that's how you want to build 'em.

    Out of curiousity, in your martials-only game, will you be allowing MC or hybridization for nonmartial classes? That would open things up too, controller-wise.
    The plan is tentatively to expand the ritual list, give everyone access to arcana, nature or religion (trinary at character build) and all magic is ritual based. The goal is more of a Conan or mythic feel; magic is rarely used in combat but instead something you do in a more complicated way.

    4E has the best combat by far for martials/mundanes, which is why I keep drifting back to it for this.
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    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Nice. Good flavor.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    So you could take any controller and declare them "martial" with minimal game effect. You have a martial wizard? Call them a "Grenadier" They make their alchemical grenades and carry them on bandoleers.
    With all due respect, "Bridgeburners" in homage to Steven Erikson's sappers is the only proper nomenclature.
    Through a series of unfortunate events, my handle on the WotC boards was darkwarlock.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkbard View Post
    With all due respect, "Bridgeburners" in homage to Steven Erikson's sappers is the only proper nomenclature.
    I've not read those books. But I may well now!
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkbard View Post
    With all due respect, "Bridgeburners" in homage to Steven Erikson's sappers is the only proper nomenclature.
    Practical Guide to Evil has Goblin Sappers that work basically the same.

    I'm running Dark Ages (more Greek then post Roman) as part of the setting though, no early modern tech stuck in my setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I'm running Dark Ages (more Greek then post Roman) as part of the setting though, no early modern tech stuck in my setting.
    That still leaves Greek fire and Roman fire pots.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beoric View Post
    That still leaves Greek fire and Roman fire pots.
    The Greek dark age is before classical Greece, Greek fire is from the Byzantines.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    @OP

    Iím in the process of developing powers for a martial controller. Right now the whole class is broken in the sense that it functions more like a low-end striker with a focus on controlling effects (like Warlocks and Rogues) more than a controller. After I get my post count up a little Iím planning to post in in the homebrew column with a discussion thread here.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarblad View Post
    @OP

    Iím in the process of developing powers for a martial controller. Right now the whole class is broken in the sense that it functions more like a low-end striker with a focus on controlling effects (like Warlocks and Rogues) more than a controller. After I get my post count up a little Iím planning to post in in the homebrew column with a discussion thread here.
    Years ago, I made a martial controller that I called the Scout (based vaguely off of the Scout from 3.X with the Skirmish class feature). You either used off-hand weapons or spears and for the large part functioned similar to how the melee-weapon Seeker ended up manifesting. The major difference was that I included a Trap functionality for the daily powers that allowed them to place traps on the field that had to be triggered by enemies (or with a standard action on the part of the Scout) and, if they weren't triggered, the trap could be "retained" without expending the use of the power.

    My group playtested it a bit and it seemed to go pretty well, but it become kind of irrelevant after the Seeker came out since it was so similar to it.
    4e Homebrew: Shadow Knight, Scout
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Years ago, I made a martial controller that I called the Scout (based vaguely off of the Scout from 3.X with the Skirmish class feature). You either used off-hand weapons or spears and for the large part functioned similar to how the melee-weapon Seeker ended up manifesting. The major difference was that I included a Trap functionality for the daily powers that allowed them to place traps on the field that had to be triggered by enemies (or with a standard action on the part of the Scout) and, if they weren't triggered, the trap could be "retained" without expending the use of the power.

    My group playtested it a bit and it seemed to go pretty well, but it become kind of irrelevant after the Seeker came out since it was so similar to it.
    You wouldnít happen to have any notes on that for posterityís sake, would you?

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarblad View Post
    You wouldnít happen to have any notes on that for posterityís sake, would you?
    I still have the entire thing on hand, in fact. The formatting got screwed up when I shifted it from my old PC to this one, but it's all still there.
    Last edited by ThePurple; 2019-05-22 at 11:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    I still have the entire thing on hand, in fact. The formatting got screwed up when I shifted it from my old PC to this one, but it's all still there.
    Then let's see it! I'm very intrigued.
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Bob View Post
    Then let's see it! I'm very intrigued.
    Done. I never quite finished it, so you'll notice quite a few names missing and there still a few feats I need to create, but it's got the full quantity of powers, PPs, etc. that you'd expect out of a 4e class.
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Someone I used to game with wrote up a pugilist/grappler type controller. Someone actually used it in game and I remember the grabbing enemies and throwing them at other enemies was especially effective.

    This was a while back but I can ask if he still has it.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by SodaQueen View Post
    Someone I used to game with wrote up a pugilist/grappler type controller. Someone actually used it in game and I remember the grabbing enemies and throwing them at other enemies was especially effective.

    This was a while back but I can ask if he still has it.
    I tried to create a viable concept for a grappler, but 4e just doesn't really support the ruleset since the whole "roll to grab, sustain the grab, then roll to execute a throw" thing becomes really cumbersome and doesn't really work appreciably well compared to just doing an attack. Also, a melee only controller is at a severe disadvantage (even if you're giving them "ranged" attacks via throwing enemies at other enemies, they still need an enemy in melee range to have a ranged attack). Inevitably, it just becomes a monk without Full Discipline, which is just kinda boring.

    Also, there's some sim/nar issues involved since, by the mechanics and for balance purposes, a medium or small sized creature should have no issues immobilizing a large, huge, etc. creature, it doesn't really make much sense. Forced movement can make sense in a kind of "hit them in the right spot and they'll stumble there" kind of way, but someone who weighs less than the weapon you're wielding holding you in place by the ankle is kind of hard to swallow. Suspension of disbelief becomes problematic when the 30 ton dragon is being held down by the 200 lb humanoid grappler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Suspension of disbelief becomes problematic when the 30 ton dragon is being held down by the 200 lb humanoid grappler.
    And yet, such is the case in myth and legend, the kind of heroic genre 4E best emulates!
    Through a series of unfortunate events, my handle on the WotC boards was darkwarlock.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Suspension of disbelief becomes problematic when the 30 ton dragon is being held down by the 200 lb humanoid grappler.
    Beowulf is often described as having barehandedly having ripped the arm off of a scaly giant(Grendel) whose scales made him impossible to hurt with weapons? Whose head was so large it required 4 men to carry it?

    Suspension of disbelief needs to be consistent. If one can justify Huge Dragons, meaning 17-30+ level Solo monsters, one should also be able to justify a grappler in their Epic Destiny transcending mortality being able to grapple them.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Beowulf is often described as having barehandedly having ripped the arm off of a scaly giant(Grendel) whose scales made him impossible to hurt with weapons? Whose head was so large it required 4 men to carry it?
    I always saw the thing with Grendel being immune to weapons as an aspect of hide being so thick. From a materials science perspective, a material can be strong and tough enough to resist bludgeoning and hacking blows but still be vulnerable to strong enough torsion or other "ripping" forces applied to it. This is what I always figured was what was supposed to have happened: Grendel's hide was so thick it couldn't be cut or injured via bludgeoning force, so Beowulf just used a different avenue of attack.

    As for the head, I never read that it was so big it required 4 men to carry it. Beowulf carried it out himself; the 4 men that carried it were doing it as an honorguard kind of thing. As such, Grendel wasn't *that* huge. He was big, but he was small enough to get into Heorot and "sneak" around within it. I would venture that Grendel was supposed to be in the region of 8-10' tall, which is a giant in the context of humans but not really a "giant" within the context of D&D.

    Suspension of disbelief is a weird thing. Everyone's got a different take on it.
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    I always saw the thing with Grendel being immune to weapons as an aspect of hide being so thick. From a materials science perspective, a material can be strong and tough enough to resist bludgeoning and hacking blows but still be vulnerable to strong enough torsion or other "ripping" forces applied to it. This is what I always figured was what was supposed to have happened: Grendel's hide was so thick it couldn't be cut or injured via bludgeoning force, so Beowulf just used a different avenue of attack.

    As for the head, I never read that it was so big it required 4 men to carry it. Beowulf carried it out himself; the 4 men that carried it were doing it as an honorguard kind of thing. As such, Grendel wasn't *that* huge. He was big, but he was small enough to get into Heorot and "sneak" around within it. I would venture that Grendel was supposed to be in the region of 8-10' tall, which is a giant in the context of humans but not really a "giant" within the context of D&D.

    Suspension of disbelief is a weird thing. Everyone's got a different take on it.
    Right. Just saying, if the choices were:
    An Epic Tier PC managing to grab a 30 ton dragon, because that's pretty much the only place 30 ton dragons exist.
    A non-Epic Tier PC managing to rip a scaly giant's arm off when that arm is immune to sword blows.

    I find the 2nd less plausible from a suspension of disbelief.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    I guess video games have made me feel like this type of thing is normal. Midna is probably small sized and she stops a charging gargantuan Ganon, although admittedly magic was involved. Earlier in the game though Link stops a rolling goron with nothing but heavy footwear and grit.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Right. Just saying, if the choices were:
    An Epic Tier PC managing to grab a 30 ton dragon, because that's pretty much the only place 30 ton dragons exist.
    A non-Epic Tier PC managing to rip a scaly giant's arm off when that arm is immune to sword blows.

    I find the 2nd less plausible from a suspension of disbelief.
    Personally, I find the 1st less plausible because grabbing and holding someone in place is accomplished by forcing them to carry you (and a lot of skill goes into making them experience more of your weight and inhibiting their movement by tangling up their limbs; there's force multiplication involved) but a 200 lb person is less than 1% of the body weight of said 30 ton dragon and doesn't really have the reach to be able to tangle up those limbs. It's a bit like a mouse being able to prevent a fully grown human from moving just because it jumped on their leg: it might be *super hard* to get off, especially if it knows how to stay on, but it's not gonna be able to physically stop you from moving around.

    At least with the Beowulf arm-ripping, you're simply having to disbelieve that a human being can have such an insane level of strength that they can rip the arm off of a big, scaly beast. In both cases, there's a bunch of strength involved, but only in the first case are you dealing with somehow having to explain why a trivial weight is now somehow able to prevent an even more powerful beast from moving.
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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Personally, I find the 1st less plausible because grabbing and holding someone in place is accomplished by forcing them to carry you (and a lot of skill goes into making them experience more of your weight and inhibiting their movement by tangling up their limbs; there's force multiplication involved) but a 200 lb person is less than 1% of the body weight of said 30 ton dragon and doesn't really have the reach to be able to tangle up those limbs. It's a bit like a mouse being able to prevent a fully grown human from moving just because it jumped on their leg: it might be *super hard* to get off, especially if it knows how to stay on, but it's not gonna be able to physically stop you from moving around.
    Except at this point, we're no longer talking about a 200 lb person. We're talking about a literal demigod. Or some other Epic Destiny where reality bends to the PCs will to accommodate their full capabilities.

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Sorry I brought it up I was just trying to help the OP sheesh

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    Default Re: No martial controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by SodaQueen View Post
    Sorry I brought it up I was just trying to help the OP sheesh
    I mean, these are the kinds of discussions we both enjoy, lol.
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