Simple RAW Thread for 3.5 #35: 3/2 Score And Four Threads Ago

[Thurbane]

Q 167

Would 0-level spell slots be able to fuel the Netherese Battle Curse feat (LEoF p.8)? I can't see anything in the wording disallowing it - just double checking.

[Elves]

Two questions about Body Outside Body chaining.

Q168

"This spell creates one or more indistinguishable duplicates of you... The duplicates you create each have one-quarter of your hit point total at the time of casting."

If a duplicate created by this spell casts Body Outside Body using a (Su) ability, does that mean the duplicate they create will have 1/4th of their HP, ie 1/16th of yours? Or does the underlined you remain fixed, referring to you, the original creature who has the (Su) ability being employed? Even if the latter, does the "at the time of casting" clause make it 1/4 anyway?

If true, this would be a nerf to Body Outside Body chaining. You quickly reach the point where the duplicates all have 1HP.


Q169

Duplicates created by duplicates using your (Su) ability don't vanish when the duplicate who summoned them does, right? Putting aside the chaining, if you simply cast Body Outside Body, your duplicates will last until the spell ends even if you die, no?

[Troacctid]

Q166

Does an effect produced by a spell-like ability count as a "spell effect"?
For example, could an Incantatrix use the third level ability quoted above to enhance a wall of force created by a spell-like ability, or does the general ban on metamagicking SLAs prevent this?

It's somewhat contextual. In this context, no.

Q164 clarification



My only suspicion here is the wording, a spell effect that is already in place, which suggests it should be a static effect.

Furthermore, both of their examples are spells that are eligible for permanency, which strongly suggests the kind of thing they were aiming for.

Lastly it does seem kind of ambiguous because there are multiple clones that the spell creates.

Has this been discussed anywhere before?

I don't see the ambiguity.

Two questions about Body Outside Body chaining.

Q168


If a duplicate created by this spell casts Body Outside Body using a (Su) ability, does that mean the duplicate they create will have 1/4th of their HP, ie 1/16th of yours? Or does the underlined you remain fixed, referring to you, the original creature who has the (Su) ability being employed? Even if the latter, does the "at the time of casting" clause make it 1/4 anyway?

If true, this would be a nerf to Body Outside Body chaining. You quickly reach the point where the duplicates all have 1HP.

Yes.

Q169

Duplicates created by duplicates using your (Su) ability don't vanish when the duplicate who summoned them does, right? Putting aside the chaining, if you simply cast Body Outside Body, your duplicates will last until the spell ends even if you die, no?

Right.

Q 167

Would 0-level spell slots be able to fuel the Netherese Battle Curse feat (LEoF p.8)? I can't see anything in the wording disallowing it - just double checking.

Yes.

Q 165

In rare cases, requirements say "humanoid-shaped" rather than "Humanoid" - such as "humanoid-shaped outsider" for Mulhorandi Divine Minion template, "humanoid-shaped construct" for the Awaken Construct and Incarnate Construct spells, "incorporeal undead that are vaguely humanoid" for the Proper State spell (Ghostwalk).

Question: if the creature in question is able to change its shape (not like polymorph derivatives, but genuine shape - like Mimic or some Oozes) and take a shape of Humanoid - will it be legal for such spells/templates(/.../whatever)?

"Humanoid-shaped" is not a defined game term, so it falls to the DM to adjudicate any ambiguity.

[thethird]

Wow, my question might be actually be in context.

Q170

While looking at item crafting I found the following phrase.

Prerequisites
Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

Invocations, Warlock's or Dragonfire Adept's, are spell-like abilities. Checking the Warlock or Dragonfire Adept there is no prerogative either way. Looking at the specific crafting feats (and specific trumps general), it appears that there is no special language for spell-like abilities.

Can a schema (a 1/day scroll) be crafted out of an invocation?

[Saintheart]

Wow, my question might be actually be in context.

Q170

While looking at item crafting I found the following phrase.



Invocations, Warlock's or Dragonfire Adept's, are spell-like abilities. Checking the Warlock or Dragonfire Adept there is no prerogative either way. Looking at the specific crafting feats (and specific trumps general), it appears that there is no special language for spell-like abilities.

Can a schema (a 1/day scroll) be crafted out of an invocation?

A170 By the most marginal of RAW, no. Crafting a Schema (Etch Schema) explicitly provides that a schema may be crafted of an infusion or a spell. In addition, a schema requires a spell level and a caster level in order for the calculation to be made as to its price. Invocations have caster levels - the character level - but do not have a spell level, instead having a spell equivalent level (p. 78, Dragon Magic). In addition, not all invocations produce an effect identical to a given spell, so even if I am wrong as to the first point, the capacity to create schemas from invocations would be limited to those spells that explicitly reproduce the effects of a given spell named in the invocation.

[Thurbane]

Q 171

Can a Persisted spell also have Extend applied, to make its duration 48 hours?

[Elves]

A171

"An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal."

Makes me think not. And since Persistent sets it to 24hrs I think the Extend would just get canceled out.

But there hasn't been a previous consensus: 1, 2.

[RAI: I doubt the "as normal" when they wrote Extend Spell was anything more than incidental phrasing, but I think it provides a basis for the more reasonable ruling.]


Q172

Can the Incantatrix's 2nd level "Cooperative Metamagic" ability be applied to spells being cast from items?

[Thurbane]

Q 173

Does the Southern Magician feat allow a divine caster to have an "arcane caster level"? For instance, would a Healer 6 with the Southern Magician feat be able to qualify for Sand Shaper (assuming the skill, feat and alignment reqs are met)?

[Saintheart]

A 173 No. p. 20 of Masters of the Wild, whilst never overridden in 3.5, provides that "If a character has a class feature or special ability that exactly duplicates the effects of a feat, then he or she can use that 'virtual feat' as a prerequisite for other feats, as well as prestige classes, and so forth."

Southern Magician does not duplicate the effects of any particular feat, other than perhaps Alternative Source Spell out of Dragon. And in any event, 'Arcane Caster Level 5th' is not a feat.

[Troacctid]

Q 173

Does the Southern Magician feat allow a divine caster to have an "arcane caster level"? For instance, would a Healer 6 with the Southern Magician feat be able to qualify for Sand Shaper (assuming the skill, feat and alignment reqs are met)?

There are two main considerations here. The first is the transitory nature of the ability. Imagine a 4th level sorcerer with the ability to somehow get a +2 bonus to her caster level once a day. Would she qualify for sand shaper? If your answer is no, then Southern Magician will fail for the same reason. If your answer is yes, then we come to the second consideration, which is this clause in the feat: "The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently." If the actual source of the spell's power remains unchanged, is it really arcane for this purpose? If so, it should work; if not, it shouldn't.

I hope that answers your question.

[Elves]

Q174

Duplicates created by the Body Outside Body spell "cannot cast spells or use any spell completion or spell trigger items". Can they use spell-like abilities?

[unseenmage]

Q175
Would Intelligent Magic Item Ring Gates have one or two intelligent rings by RAW?

[Elves]

Last wu jen question, I promise.

Q176

RAW, do the "indistinguishable duplicates" created by the Body Outside Body spell appear with the buff spells, diseases, and other temporary conditions affecting you at the time of casting?

This spell creates one or more indistinguishable duplicates of you, all of which share your ability scores, personality, class levels, skills, feats, and memories. They carry the same arms, armor, and equipment as you do (but only have mundane versions of any magic gear), and they cannot cast spells or use any spell completion or spell trigger items. They are friendly toward each other and your companions and will follow any order you give them (even actions that you wouldn't normally do yourself, such as charging a dragon or jumping off a cliff).

The duplicates you create each have one-quarter of your hit point total at the time of casting and take damage as normal in combat. [etc]

[St Fan]

Last wu jen question, I promise.

Q176

RAW, do the "indistinguishable duplicates" created by the Body Outside Body spell appear with the buff spells, diseases, and other temporary conditions affecting you at the time of casting?

A 176
That's not entirely clear, however the spell description mention "share your ability scores, personality, class levels, skills, feats, and memories." It says nothing about ongoing spells and other temporary conditions.

Also, "They carry the same arms, armor, and equipment as you do (but only have mundane versions of any magic gear)," this part pointing out toward the duplicates being magic-less, at least as far as magic items are concerned.

This seems to indicate no magic, either temporary or permanent, carry over to the duplicates.

Disease and other non-magical conditions, however, are different because of this part: "The duplicates you create each have one-quarter of your hit point total at the time of casting " This means being in bad health (low hit points) does affect the duplicates. Plus the "share your ability scores" part certainly implies current ability scores, including if they are reduced by damage or drain.

So, I would make the tentative ruling that nothing magical or supernatural would carry over to the duplicate; however, non-magical conditions (like disease, or missing an arm or leg) probably do.

[Elves]

Q 177

Maximized Twinned Disintegrate. Are both instances of the spell maximized or just one?

[Saintheart]

Q 177

Maximized Twinned Disintegrate. Are both instances of the spell maximized or just one?

A 177

False premise, because a twinned spell is not two spells, but one. Per Twin Spell, casting a twinned spell causes the spell to take effect twice in the same area or on the same target simultaneously.

Therefore if the spell is Maximised, it will attempt to take effect twice, maximised in line with Maximise Spell.

[Khedrac]

A 177 Dispute

Q 177 - Maximized Twinned Disintegrate. Are both instances of the spell maximized or just one?

A 177
False premise, because a twinned spell is not two spells, but one. Per Twin Spell, casting a twinned spell causes the spell to take effect twice in the same area or on the same target simultaneously.

Therefore if the spell is Maximised, it will attempt to take effect twice, maximised in line with Maximise Spell.

The closest example we have in the rules for this is a Maximized Empowered fireball in which the Maximize and the "Empower" explicitly do not stack. This would lead me to rule that no, only one of the disintegrate effects is Maxmized - but that is my personal call when DMing. A lot of people seem to claim that the "Maximized Empowered" example is specific to that combination and cannot be extrapolated to others (and looking at examples. the example of an Empowered magic missile causes no end of problems) so there is a fair bit of contention about this question.

So, there is no clear RAW answer, and the best answer is "DM's call".

[Zaq]

A 177

False premise, because a twinned spell is not two spells, but one. Per Twin Spell, casting a twinned spell causes the spell to take effect twice in the same area or on the same target simultaneously.

Therefore if the spell is Maximised, it will attempt to take effect twice, maximised in line with Maximise Spell.

177 follow-up
Does this mean that dispelling either “part” of a Twinned spell dispels the whole thing, much like how dispelling one character under a haste spell dispels the whole haste spell (including on characters who were not targeted by or not in the area of the dispelling effect), since it’s just one spell?

To put it in concrete terms, if you use Twin on a summon monster spell and get two critters, would a targeted (successful) dispel magic on one summon also dispel the other?

[Elves]

177 cont.

Does this mean that dispelling either “part” of a Twinned spell dispels the whole thing?

Twin Spell specifies that a twin spell with a save is resisted separately, with two rolls, so logically it is also dispelled separately. The crux of Q177 is what it means for metamagic feats to be applied simultaneously. On reflection I have to come down on the side of the Maximize Empower example; since metamagic feats have no order, they can't interact with each other, and each affect the spell as if it weren't affected by any other metamagics.

If metamagics could be applied in order it would be easier; this might be something to do with incantatrix's Metamagic Effect (for example, could you cast twinned wall of fire then use Metamagic Effect to maximize both walls afterward?).

[KillianHawkeye]

177 cont.

If metamagics could be applied in order it would be easier; this might be something to do with incantatrix's Metamagic Effect (for example, could you cast twinned wall of fire then use Metamagic Effect to maximize both walls afterward?).

To be fair, I think that would probably require two uses of the Incatatrix's metamagic effect ability.

[Ruethgar]

Q 178
There was a ‘make your own feat’ feat in I think one of the Dragonlance books, but I can’t find it. It requires Leadership and being the head of an organization/guild or something but I’ve been looking through books and googling to no avail. Anyone know what it was called and where it was printed?

A 178 Loyalty’s Reward. Kingdom of Kalamar Player’s Guide p88.

[Thurbane]

Q 179

Are the life-spans of giants listed anywhere? Specifically, Cloud Giants?

Never mind, found the answer:

Cloud giants can live to be 400 years old.

Q 179b

If the answer to previous question is yes, which race of true giants are the longest lived?

[ChudoJogurt]

Q 180
A Horned Felldrake has an ability called "Charge" which says that he can deal damage 4d6+6 on a charge, which, though not explicitly stated, is his normal attack doubled.
If one casts things that change his normal damage (e.g. Bull's Strength or give him Improved Natural Attack via Heroics) would it affect the charge as well?

[Saintheart]

A180
Yes.

On one hand, it is arguable that as an (Ex) ability, the horn attack's ability is fixed and is not a 'melee attack roll'. Bull's Strength "grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier."

However, the Horndrake's statblock indicates clearly that the ability is "in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge." A charge comprises a single melee attack after moving. A melee attack comprises an attack roll and if successful is followed by a damage roll. Melee attack rolls and Melee damage rolls are affected by Bull's Strength. Ergo, it can apply to the Horndrake's charge.

[Thurbane]

Q 181

Would any of the following qualify as giving a character an "arcane caster level" for purposes such as entering Sand Shaper or for an Improved Familiar?

Evil Eye (eye of fear) (Sp): Once per day, as a spell-like ability, the 6th-level blessed of Gruumsh can make a gaze attack for 1 round as an attack action with a range of 30 feet. A Will save resists the effect (DC 10 + blessed of Gruumsh level + Cha modifier), and those who fail must run in fear as if affected by a fear spell cast by a sorcerer with a caster level equal to the blessed of Gruumsh's class level.

Analyze Portal (Sp): A gatecrasher gains the ability to use analyze portal as a spell-like ability. He may do this once per gatecrasher level per day. This ability otherwise functions as the spell cast by a sorcerer of the gatecrasher's character level.

Summon Swarm (Sp): A master of flies can use summon swarm as a sorcerer of her character level. She can use this ability once per day per level she has attained in this prestige class.

[Lhurgyof]

Q182

Would a Dragonfire Adept with the feats Power Surge and Widen Breath be required to apply Power Surge to their breath weapon to be able to apply Widen Breath, or can they apply Widen without Power Surging it?

[Troacctid]

Q 181

Would any of the following qualify as giving a character an "arcane caster level" for purposes such as entering Sand Shaper or for an Improved Familiar?

No. Spell-like abilities are neither arcane nor divine. Invocations are the only exception that I'm aware of.

Q182

Would a Dragonfire Adept with the feats Power Surge and Widen Breath be required to apply Power Surge to their breath weapon to be able to apply Widen Breath, or can they apply Widen without Power Surging it?

I'm not familiar with Widen Breath, but for metabreaths in general, no, they would not be required to use Power Surge to add a metabreath effect to their breath weapon, only to qualify for the metabreath feat.

[Vaern]

Q183 A
To what extent is Demon Armor magical? More specifically, the claws...

This plate armor is fashioned to make the wearer appear to be a demon. The helmet is shaped to look like a horned demon head, and its wearer looks out of the open, tooth-filled mouth. This +4 full plate allows the wearer to make claw attacks that deal 1d10 points of damage, strike as +1 weapons, and afflict the target as if she had been struck by a contagion spell (Fortitude DC 14 negates). Use of contagion requires a normal melee attack with the claws. The “claws” are built into the armor’s vambraces and gauntlets.

It's obvious that the +4 bonus to the armor itself and the claw attacks' +1 weapon bonus and contagion effect are magical. But if the armor was rendered non-magical, would the wearer still be able to make claw attacks for 1d10 damage? Or is that considered a magical property?

The first bold bit in the description says that the armor allows the wearer to make a claw attack. This seems to indicate that it's the armor itself and not the gauntlets that grant the ability. The claw attack could be a special property that the armor would lose if it became non-magical.

The second bold bit in the description, however, indicates that the claws are a physical trait of the vambraces and gauntlets. In this case, it's reasonable to think that since a non-magical version of the armor would still have claws then its wearer could still make that 1d10 claw attack.

This one seems like a bit of a toss-up to me.

[Brutter]

Q 184: What happens if you begin casting a spell with a long casting time, but no longer meet the requirements by the end? For example, say there was a Level 7 Cleric that for some reason had 12 Wisdom. Normally they couldn't cast 3rd or higher level spells, but would be able to if they had a Wisdom bonus. So they cast Owl's Wisdom on themselves to boost their Wisdom to 16 for 7 minutes, then try and cast Divination which has a 10 minute casting time. Would they be able to finish their cast, even though they don't have sufficient Wisdom at the 10 minute point?

[Andezzar]

Q 184: What happens if you begin casting a spell with a long casting time, but no longer meet the requirements by the end? For example, say there was a Level 7 Cleric that for some reason had 12 Wisdom. Normally they couldn't cast 3rd or higher level spells, but would be able to if they had a Wisdom bonus. So they cast Owl's Wisdom on themselves to boost their Wisdom to 16 for 7 minutes, then try and cast Divination which has a 10 minute casting time. Would they be able to finish their cast, even though they don't have sufficient Wisdom at the 10 minute point?

He couldn't prepare the spell in the first place:

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.