Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

[The Pilgrim]

Littlefinger was a pimp lord. Using women as sex objects to traffick with for net benefits was all in character for him.

[gomipile]

Like others have said - if she had flown into a rage straight when Melisandre was killed - that would have made sense.

Huh? Melisandre wasn't killed. She old-aged herself to death by taking off her magical jeweled choker. And I'm not sure why Dany would feel rage at Melisandre's death, anyway. Their stories didn't have much intersection.

[The Pilgrim]

Huh? Melisandre wasn't killed. She old-aged herself to death by taking off her magical jeweled choker. And I'm not sure why Dany would feel rage at Melisandre's death, anyway. Their stories didn't have much intersection.

He was probably meaning Missan... whatever. The translator chick who was Dany's BFF.

[pendell]

Gregor as well.

I don't see Gregor as insane. Gregor is just an overgrown, violent bully.

I remember grade school, and a successful bully is one who only picks on victims that no one likes. People who can't defend themselves. You see them on twitter all the time, or on school playgrounds. People who like to get their kicks making other people miserable, but it's pretty obvious it's not real concern for whatever cause they're yammering about that motivates them -- it's the sheer pleasure of sadism. And they've chosen a victim for which, rather than being punished as they deserve, they'll be commended for making someone miserable.

Real bullies are cowards. They pick on those who can't defend themselves, whom no one else will defend. That's what Gregor did throughout ever season. By taking out his sadism only on the people the Lannisters pointed him at, he rose in their favor to the point of being their champion. That's all he ever was, and zombiehood doesn't seem to have actually changed this essential part of his character.

So, no, Gregor is not insane. He's just a sadistic bully, and a very acceptable one in society. Westeros society actually appreciates a big, strong bully provided he does what he's told. Which is why he's successful in that society rather than outlaw.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Iruka]

He was probably meaning Missan... whatever. The translator chick who was Dany's BFF.

Missandei. Almost got there.

[hamishspence]

I don't see Gregor as insane. Gregor is just an overgrown, violent bully.

I remember grade school, and a successful bully is one who only picks on victims that no one likes. People who can't defend themselves. You see them on twitter all the time, or on school playgrounds. People who like to get their kicks making other people miserable, but it's pretty obvious it's not real concern for whatever cause they're yammering about that motivates them -- it's the sheer pleasure of sadism. And they've chosen a victim for which, rather than being punished as they deserve, they'll be commended for making someone miserable.

Real bullies are cowards. They pick on those who can't defend themselves, whom no one else will defend. That's what Gregor did throughout ever season. By taking out his sadism only on the people the Lannisters pointed him at, he rose in their favor to the point of being their champion. That's all he ever was, and zombiehood doesn't seem to have actually changed this essential part of his character.

So, no, Gregor is not insane. He's just a sadistic bully, and a very acceptable one in society.

He's insane in the colloquial "Ax-Crazy" sense - he murders for ludicrously petty reasons, and overreacts to anything he finds annoying, on an epic scale. Killing one of his own men for snoring is just one of the many things he's famous for doing.

[GloatingSwine]

Littlefinger was a pimp lord. Using women as sex objects to traffick with for net benefits was all in character for him.

He was also pathetically obsessed with Catelyn Stark and did everything he could to acquire substitutes for himself, and Sansa has a very strong resemblance to her mother.

(Which is why that didn't happen in the books, it's Jeyne Pool being passed off as Arya instead.T he books are driven by their characters instead of the characters being wrenched around to hit certain scenes.)

Petyr Baelish's obsession with the Tully sisters is one of the principle underlying causes of the War of the Five Kings, because he was the one that poisoned Lysa's husband to free her up, he just got a better copy later and murdered her.

I don't see Gregor as insane. Gregor is just an overgrown, violent bully.

Gregor apparently has almost permanent severe headaches which mean he's high on opium almost all the time. (Gigantism often has secondary health complications).

So he wasn't insane, he was just permanently disposed to spreading his own pain and misery as far and wide as possible.

He made it as far as he did because Tywin Lannister knew the power of fear, and having an enforcer like Gregor suited his needs.

[Iruka]

IIRC, the books suggest that the Mountain might suffer from a form of gigantism. This would explain his size and often comes with severe headaches. That might be a factor in stuff like killing the snoring soldier and general grumpiness. Does not excuse him from reacting to everything with lethal brutality.

edit: faceless manned, fixed the link, added reply

Petyr Baelish's obsession with the Tully sisters is one of the principle underlying causes of the War of the Five Kings, because he was the one that poisoned Lysa's husband to free her up, he just got a better copy later and murdered her.

He was never really interested in Lysa, even as a replacement for Catelyn. Just used her as an easy tool because she had a thing for him.

[Braininthejar2]

So, a violent psychopath with near superhuman strength and near-constant headache?

[Dr.Samurai]

I get that. For me the disconnect is this:

I think it was obvious from early on where the showrunners and the author intended to go with her. Or at least hinted at and "foreshadowed" to use the overused term.

I don't think that's because they did a good job foreshadowing it, or hinting at it. I don't think it was a well crafted or well constructed narrative arc.

But, cynically, it was clear to me. "oh I see what they are doing" And from that point, it informed my viewing. "Oh I see why they did that." "Oh, I see why they are having her do that." "Oh I see the subtext behind that."

And in some shows, I would see that and think "OH that was well done." "Oh that was clever." "Oh that was nicely crafted."

But in this show and in this character's arc, I did not see it and think that. Instead I saw it and thought. "Oh, that was ham-handed." "Oh that was disappointing." "Oh, that was stupid and arbitrary."

So, informed in that way and seeing it in that light, what I think happened this last episode was "Ah. there's the pay-off for their ham-handed, disappointing narrative arc. Well, it was just as ham-handed and disappointing as the rest of the arc. But, man, was that cool looking. Best visual representation of the destructive power of dragons ever!"

Agreed here as well. Though I would like to see a starker divide between a "mad" queen and a ruthless ambitious conqueror. Because the Mad King, from what I can tell, was irrationally paranoid of people, likely suffering from paranoid delusions. My mother suffers psychotic episodes that include paranoid delusions when she is in a manic state. That's a mental illness.

Dany pleading with Jon Snow not to tell his secret because other people will force the issue, and Dany looking disheveled staring out of a window and calmly recounting everyone that's betrayed her... these things are not paranoia. She is not delusional. She's just the smartest person in the room every time.

And it's a similar conflation with using her dragons. As mentioned before, Tyrion uses wildfire to explode Stannis' fleet, and nearly everyone on them. Cersei uses wildfire to destroy her enemies in the Sept. The Masters brought catapults on ships to smash Meereen to bits. I didn't know this but someone else mentioned that Tywin flooded and drowned an entire castle (or something). But when Dany deals with her enemies, she's mad. I wonder what this means, because references to her father and the Targaryen blood and the gods flipping a coin come up. It makes it seem like she's crazy, and that doesn't track within the show's universe. Rather, she's just as ruthless as everyone else when it comes to handling her enemies.

It also means that Jon Snow, apparently, is capable of flipping at any moment and massacring people, because he's Targaryen.

Okay

First thing. Dr. Samurai, and to others with his logic. I don't get it. There has got to be some Cognitive dissonance going on.

How can you logically say, I don't like this character, and it is badly written...…...but I will DEFEND that character as if you are going after a significant person in my life.

I'm actually defending myself, Kyberwulf, not Dany.

I don't think anyone (and I've said as much) came away from episode 5 looking good. Cersei had no tricks or last ditch efforts to destroy her enemy, Jon isn't commanding or leading anyone, and Dany of course is, I think, the worst case. But even Varys, spymaster that he is, can't smuggle himself out of Dragonstone before committing treason on someone he thinks is a ticking time bomb.

The problem is that I can criticize the characterization of all these other characters and have a discussion with people that disagree, and it's okay. But when I criticize Dany's characterization, it's because I've been duped, or I'm personally vested in the character and can't disentangle my own feelings from the narrative, or I secretly wish I was a teenage girl with dragons to impose my desires on the world, or, as you just said, I'm treating her like she's a significant person in my life.

Here's the thing... Game of Thrones has had *many* incredible moments throughout the 8 seasons. Here in NYC, they had the #forthethrone advertisements in the subways and each one was a shocking scene from the show. I'll pick a few; Ned's execution, the Red Wedding, Hold the Door, Littlefinger's execution.

There were no cries of bad writing when Ned was executed, or Robb was betrayed and ambushed at the wedding, or Hodor was sacrificed to save Bran and Meera. The reason being that the story took us to these scenes; we followed events and actions all along to arrive at a conclusion that makes sense.

For me, the events that took us to Littlefinger's execution didn't make sense, and I thought that was bad writing. (And I *do* like Littlefinger so people could accuse me of being vested here if they want.) Similarly, I thought the mission beyond the Wall was absolutely ridiculous, and was all predicated on pretty flimsy reasoning from Tyrion (another case where I think bad writing undercut an excellent character). Despite what some other people here have argued, I *don't* think the events of the last 8 seasons have taken us to a place where Dany massacres the entire population of King's Landing because she doesn't feel loved.

And when things happen in a show that don't seem fitting or logical or like the conclusion of the story's progress so far, this kind of disappointment occurs.

But instead of having that conversation, we're told we're dupes that projected ourselves onto Dany like she's an Avatar and all of our hopes and dreams were crushed when she went full psycho. This happens often. When you criticize TLJ for it's awful treatment of Luke, it's because your hero worship is clouding your judgment. It's easier to attack the critic than defend bad writing.

She literally has no real training in anything particular. I mean I don't think she could be trained in anything amazing, while on the run, and being pretty young in the show at the start. I mean I think we were just shown that she learned something of the Culture of the Dothraki and some sex moves from a sex slave. (Funny for me, I think this is the purest time as a character, that she was actually enjoying life, loved Kel Drogo,... yet people seem to see this as some Machiavellian move to get power,)

I think she was enjoying her time with Drogo as well, and making the best of it. Observing that she turned the situation around to be more of an equal to Drogo than simply his sex slave is not to say that Dany didn't genuinely love him.

As far as training goes... not sure what the point is. Much of getting ahead in this world is the good ol' "fake it until you make it" mantra. When someone asks you if you can do something, just say you can, and then figure out how to do it.

Dany wasn't born into power, but she acquired it and has been learning how to rule since then. And she's done a god job at it, despite some misteps.

She literally has no special training... expert training, and no powers other then Fire Immunity.. oh and she is HOT. (Which I think if she were a MAN... sure people wouldn't be judging her like they are.. on BOTH sides. They wouldn't be defending so HARDCORE like they are now.) Also, her she wouldn't have had nearly, if any followers at all if she were a man. I doubt her and her brother would have amounted to anything if she were a man.

This is similar to pointing at a line like "I will have what is mine, with fire and blood" and then claiming that she essentially *has* to be the Mad Queen because of it.

You say "she has no powers except fire immunity" and then don't reflect on the fact that someone who has nothing more than fire immunity has amassed a huge army, conquered Slaver's Bay, was integral to the destruction of the Night King, and just took out Cersei.

You simply just say "what makes her so special, she's just immune to fire" without thinking that the fact she has accomplished so much starting out with nothing more than fire immunity is exactly what makes her special.

She is so inept and ruled by her emotions, that if you look at her actions, she would have made better plays if she were a better character.

There are plenty of examples that show this claim to be absolutely untrue and Dany is often mastering her emotions, not the other way around.

I mean, even Cersei makes better, logical moves then her.... not saying Cersei is anything the best.... just not inept (by not being the best I mean she isn't as smart as she things she is.)

Cersei would outplay you in a heartbeat. Littlefinger set Cersei up to be wiped out in Season 1, and she survived his machinations, survived Robert, survived Ned, the Tyrells and the Martells, the High Sparrow, the Iron Bank, etc. She earned her position. This is why episode 5 was a little disappointing in that she had nothing else up her sleeve.

I don't know how you can make the claims about Jon Snow, and not SEE the exact thing you are pointing out about in Dany. I mean, as ruled by his emotions as he is, at least Jon and Cersei aren't noobs getting by on just their looks.

Jon is ruled by honor. And Dany is not getting by on her looks.

I mean for all your talk of Tyrion being inept and crappy at advice, YOU give Dany a PASS for being dumb enough to taking it and doing nothing else.

I'm not giving her a pass. She *needs* advisors. She doesn't know war, she doesn't know Westeros, she doesn't know mercenary companies, etc. She needs people to help her.

She did in fact listen to the wrong people, as we know. Olenna warned her not to listen to clever men. Tyrion tied Dany's hands behind her back when she could have swooped in and taken King's Landing at any moment in time.

A SMART character, a politically savvy character, a character worthy of the type of excuses you are levying at her, would take that advice and others. Take them deliberate on them, and come up with plans that don't involve putting all your eggs in one basket.

I feel like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. It feels like you're incensed that I've claimed Tyrion's advice is bad (meaning you think his advice was good), but you're also claiming Dany is an idiot for listening to it.

For the statement about other people only seeing things in Black and White. At least he acknowledges there is more the one choice. I mean, you see things only as one way, and if that doesn't make sense, then there isn't something wrong with your view... its absolutely wrong.

Who is he?

And yeah, I think this is bad writing, pure and simple. If Dany was going to be a mad queen all along, no problem. But take us there organically. Don't do this hamfisted nonsense in the second to last episode. Don't make Tyrion an inept advisor for two seasons all of a sudden so that one bad thing after another can happen to Dany as a flimsy justification for a massacre.

I mean, if someone makes a choice, then they have to follow a set path, no changes at all. No variations. If you start off as a delicate helpless flower, then you are forever a delicate flower, no matter what choices you have made. All things are okay, because it is all justified. Until she FINALLY does something big enough to offend you, then its not the character that did the wrong. It's the PLOT (that has always been going a certain way) that is suddenly does a oneeighty.

You say "no matter what choices you have made" and I addressed this in my previous post. Dany has made some incredible choices that shows the throne isn't her *only* ambition. She has never reduced a city to dust. She saved the North. She listens to her advisors. She forgives people and takes them in. So no, no one is claiming that she's been a delicate flower all along. I'm claiming that she has been a reasonable and thoughtful person all along, when others are saying she's been mad all along.

Daenerys' single most significant achievement on her path to power - in both the books and the show - is double-crossing the Good Masters of Astapor in order to acquire an army of Unsullied. Her appearance has little to do with that, though her being female (and also a teenager) do contribute to the Masters drastically underestimating her capabilities. Her second most significant achievement - which happened only in the show since the books have not yet reached this point - was burning the collected Dothraki Khals inside their own meeting tent in order to take control of the collected khalasars. Her appearance did impact that, since the physical desire displayed by the Khals helped get her into the room, but the actual achievement required Daenerys to leverage her natural fire immunity.

I would add hatching the dragons as well. To anyone else, the eggs were simply valuable. Ilyrio gifted them to Dany, and Viserys was going to sell them for an army.

People have criticized Dany for having faith in herself (it seems these days if you're not self-loathing it's a vice) but this is actually one of her greater strengths, and it is the exact trait that allows her to step onto the pyre and hatch her dragons and begin her conquest of Westeros. It drives her ambitions, and it drives her desire to be a good ruler and to reflect and surround herself with good people and enact change in the world.

Overall, Daenerys path to great power has been far more dependent upon her inherent traits as a Targaryen and leveraging them to their maximum impact, which got her dragons, an army, and then another army. And, it seems her ultimate fall from power if going to also be dependent upon her inherent traits as a Targaryen, in this case her madness. There is actually a certain darkly poetic symmetry to that. However, in order for it to be executed properly the madness really should have been present from early on, and it hasn't been (this is especially true in the books, where Dany's viewpoint chapters have her acting with remarkable self-awareness and considerable mental poise). If madness is the price Targaryen's pay for power it should not manifest only when that power is at its zenith.

I actually suspect that, in the books it was intended by GRR Martin that there would come a time when people would call Daenerys the 'Mad Queen' only should would not actually be mad, just someone with a lot of blood on her hands for dubious reasons (an unnecessary conflict between her and Young Griff due to the manipulation of others, perhaps even Arya, would make sense as a cause). I'm quite sure that committing a massive atrocity against King's Landing would be part of it, book Dany is quite open about having blood on her hands, but it might be a deliberate choice, not simple mental degeneration.

Agreed.

+1. It wasn't particularly hard to see where the writers intended to take Daenerys's character. There was a small hope that they would positively subvert expectations for once and have her learn from her mistakes and end up a better person and ruler, but it was too much to be expected. Hell, they bungled Jaimie's redemption arc at the last second.

The show writers failed utterly at every part of their craft. They failed with the story, they failed with the setting, they failed with the characters. And I'm not saying that just because of where Daenerys ended up. They failed ser Barristan Selmy when they had the best fighter of the Seven Kingdoms forget to wear his armor in a hostile city and die to a bunch of disgruntled nobles larping as rebels. They failed Stannis Baratheon when they had him burn his daughter alive after Ramsay and Ser Twenty of House Goodmen crippled his army with no effort. They failed Littlefinger when they had him hand Sansa off to a notorious monster, forget how to plot and ultimately die pathetically without mustering even the most rudimentary defense. They failed Varys when they had him do nothing at all for two seasons, until he woke up from his slumber, began the most inept and most needless plot he possibly could and died a pointless death. They failed Tyrion when they had every single one of his plans fail miserably after he was made Hand. They failed Euron Grayjoy by, well, everything l. They failed Jaimie, they failed Sansa, they failed Brienne, and so on, and so on.

I don't think these failures are particularly controversial. People may disagree on how much these failures ultimately matter, but I would very much like to hear anyone argue that those storylines were well executed.

Why then is that same atrociously bad writing excused in the case of Daenerys? Her descent to cartoon villainy was just as well executed as the rest, ie not at all. The writers have not earned our goodwill, and do not deserve us pretending we got anything other than the drivel we were actually given.

Amen!

[The Pilgrim]

He was also pathetically obsessed with Catelyn Stark and did everything he could to acquire substitutes for himself, and Sansa has a very strong resemblance to her mother.
(...)
Petyr Baelish's obsession with the Tully sisters is one of the principle underlying causes of the War of the Five Kings, because he was the one that poisoned Lysa's husband to free her up, he just got a better copy later and murdered her.

To Littlefinger, Cat was just a trophy to be held. He used her sister to kill the Hand of the King because that way Cat's husband would be drawn to King's Landing, where he could kill him and free Cat. He wanted to bring as much misery as possible to house Stark to force Cat to submit to his will for protection. He just wanted to fabric the "Blue Prince saves the Damsel in Distress and they live happy every after" scenario. Except that he was the one bringing distress to the Damsel to begin with.

Of course, Cat's demise in the Red Wedding derrailed his plans and killed his fantasies. So makes sense he just began to stumble around. He could no longer fix his Ego by adquiring the Trophy he had lusted for all his life. Because the Trophy no longer existed.

Sansa, was just a consolation prize for his damaged Ego. He obviously projected the lust he felt for her mother on her. But, really, just a consolation prize, doesn't feels the same. Letting Bolton rape her was not only in line with the "put the damsel into distress and came later as her knight in shinning armor" routine, but also a way to "punish" her mother for rejecting him.

So yep, handing Sansa to Bolton for raping was full in character for Littlefinger. In my oppinion.

(This is the character interpretation I make about the character in the TV Show, not the character in the books, whose character arc is not finished yet).

(Which is why that didn't happen in the books, it's Jeyne Pool being passed off as Arya instead.T he books are driven by their characters instead of the characters being wrenched around to hit certain scenes.)

That's one of the big differences between a book and a live performance. In the latter you have actors, people, playing your characters. And they eat and stuff. And the popularity of a character is more dependant on the actor than on your writing.

Which is why you keep a reduced cast, merge disposable characters into the main ones, modify your plot to give more screen time to the characters played by the actors the audience likes most, putting them in situations and scenes that allow for the performer to play his or her acting strenghts.

[deuterio12]

Gregor apparently has almost permanent severe headaches which mean he's high on opium almost all the time. (Gigantism often has secondary health complications).

So he wasn't insane, he was just permanently disposed to spreading his own pain and misery as far and wide as possible.

That's not really possible, since Gregor is also extremely skilled in combat besides his massive raw strength as pointed out by other characters, including being just as lethal on horseback. That wouldn't be possible at all if Gregor was suffering from pain stopping him from concentrating or high on drugs all the time.

If he was just an angry giant and relied only on raw strength, he would've already been slain long ago.

Also reminder he almost burned his little brother to death just because he took Gregor's new toy.

And then there was that jousting tournament when Robert was still alive and Gregor reacts to being unseated by taking out his sword, beheading the opponent's horse and then trying to chop down the rider, regardless of the king and all the important nobles being right there watching him break the tournament rules.

If you'll still claim Gregor was only suffering from an headache and that justifies everything, then we can do just the same for Daenerys.

"Oh, those loud bells are giving me such an headache", then she'll be 120% innocent from going in a burning and killing rampage just like Gregor.

[Dr.Samurai]

My takeaway regarding Greggor is that he is a psychopath.

[GloatingSwine]

If you'll still claim Gregor was only suffering from an headache and that justifies everything, then we can do just the same for Daenerys.

You're reading way more into what I said than is reasonable if you think i'm "justifying" his actions.

I'm pointing out established parts of his character from the books that explain why he is how he is. That doesnt imply that I am making any excuses for him. Reasons are not justifications.

[deuterio12]

You're reading way more into what I said than is reasonable if you think i'm "justifying" his actions.

I'm pointing out established parts of his character from the books that explain why he is how he is.

And I'm pointing out even more established parts of his character from the books to explain that an headache is not a valid explanation by any measure.

Like how Gregor's dad, sister and both wifes (yes he married twice) died in conditions that were never properly explained. Or how the servants at his home just vanish with no explanation. Or even dogs fear to be near Gregor with no explanation.

Or how he once stopped in an inn, instantly grabbed the innkeeper's daughter and started raping her right there, and when said innkeeper tried to feebly protest Gregor threw him a silver stag, the standard payment for a whore's "service". And when Gregor finished, he demanded change from the innkeeper, claiming the "service" hadn't been to his proper satisfaction.

Gregor simply being a psychopath is a much better explanation given the book material.

[hamishspence]

he was just permanently disposed to spreading his own pain and misery as far and wide as possible.

This is a kind of insanity.

[Kyberwulf]

Except three things.

1. Dany wasn't an equal to Drogo. She would just basically say... I want this.. and he would go get it for her. Even to the detriment of him or his peoples. Let's not forget because of her whims, Drogo was killed.

2. I can have my cake and eat it, cuase I am using your logic in thinking. Tyrion DID have good advice, it's just the plot took any chance of his advice panning out. It tried to turn that Toxic feminism true, what with The old lady saying don't listen to men, cause they suck.

3. Dany didn't survive because of any skill. Her ineptitude kept getting her into trouble that her DRAGONS had to bail her out. That, in the case of Cersi too, they also couldn't be killed out of plot. You keep saying that Cersi survived because she was some great manipulator. I don't think so. Everyone died around her because other peoples plots. You Make it seem like this was a straight shot down a pipeline. She survived cause she rode that down. I am saying it was Plinko, and she just happen to be the one who made into the right hole at the end.

See, for me, I don't expect the story to follow MY logic, or make SENSE to me from my perspective. I can disassociate myself enough to see that not everything people do have to make LOGIC or sense. People seldom do. Even in a story, I can sit back and say, "oh... well that made no sense, she must have a lot going on inside her head. Welp, it was extreme but not TOTALLY out of character for her, then again she did just lose the ONE of the two ONLY people she trusted with her life."


See, I don't mind what they "DiD" to Luke. It makes sense, from a certain point of view. I can buy that having him give up on life, because his Nephew killed off all the children he was raising and teaching. All for one moment of revulsion felt. Now, I am sad you brought it up, because now the Thread will devolve into a REY sucks thread. *Sad face* I only further talked about it for this reason. I think the same reason that was seen so harshly, because it's the same with Dany.

Both situations happen, not illogically, but because we weren't given the scenes with our hands being held. (Despite, people assertions that the audience is smart and doesn't have to have things spoon feed to them) If we were given a movie where we were shown The moment and aftermath i.e the slaughtering of the children that were in Luke's care, and given a couple more episodes where Dany went further into depression. I am not the one who was claiming she was mad, I don't know how I got lumped into that group. See, I can buy what Dany did. On some level, I sympathize with her. I have reached depths where, had I had a Dragon, you probably would have heard about me on the news. I digress. The thing with Luke and Dany is, they need more to be shown so people like you need to see.

See the thing is, I don't need my hand held. I can put two and two together and think, oh yeah they had a lot on there plate... whelp,.... okay.

lol, That's one of the funny things. I think for one of the first times we experience things from a commoners perspective. We weren't given reasons, just the reactions to what happen. You can't cope with that because you need to feel special, and need to be one of the special people that know why things happen. Me? I can go... whelp, That was weird.. time to go on this wild and crazy ride.

[GloatingSwine]

Gregor simply being a psychopath is a much better explanation given the book material.

Psychopathy is not just "being a violent *******". Gregor doesn't exhibit enough of the classical symptoms of APD, and people who do tend to be quite high functioning individuals (you want to find psychopaths, look in corporate boardrooms...)

He's a violent ******* who always gets away with whatever he does out of a combination of his size and strength and Tywin protecting him. His actions are exacerbated by the fact he's in constant pain and lashes out because of it. He'd be bad without that, but not as often or as severely.

This is a kind of insanity.

Not really.

It's just being a ****.

Remember, insanity represents a reduction in responsibility. An acknowledgement that someone is incapable of self control. That's why it's a defence against criminal responsibility in a modern court. Gregor isn't insane, he's just a massive ****.

[Willie the Duck]

See the thing is, I don't need my hand held. I can put two and two together and think,
…
You can't cope with that because you need to feel special,

Nothing good ever comes from framing your debate opposition like this.

[pendell]

Psychopathy is not just "being a violent *******". Gregor doesn't exhibit enough of the classical symptoms of APD, and people who do tend to be quite high functioning individuals (you want to find psychopaths, look in corporate boardrooms...)

He's a violent ******* who always gets away with whatever he does out of a combination of his size and strength and Tywin protecting him. His actions are exacerbated by the fact he's in constant pain and lashes out because of it. He'd be bad without that, but not as often or as severely.



Not really.

It's just being a ****.

Remember, insanity represents a reduction in responsibility. An acknowledgement that someone is incapable of self control. That's why it's a defence against criminal responsibility in a modern court. Gregor isn't insane, he's just a massive ****.

Okay. So is having mental illness different from insane in the legal sense? For example, let's say Daenerys is paranoid. That's a form of mental illness. But does it rise to the level of being legally insane, of being unable to tell right from wrong?

From that perspective, there might be many people in the real world suffering from mental illness (depression, for example) who would still be considered fully culpable for their actions in cour.t

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Gregor is "mad" or "insane" or "crazy" in the colloquial sense - not in any specific legal sense.

Other mad villains are even compared to him in-universe - Jaime speaks of the Smiling Knight, as being "twice as mad" as Gregor.

Not every "Ax-Crazy" GoT character is going to be as mad as Aerys:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...y/LiveActionTV

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm actually defending myself, Kyberwulf

The problem is that I can criticize the characterization of all these other characters and have a discussion with people that disagree, and it's okay. But when I criticize Dany's characterization, it's because I've been duped, or I'm personally vested in the character and can't disentangle my own feelings from the narrative, or I secretly wish I was a teenage girl with dragons to impose my desires on the world, or, as you just said, I'm treating her like she's a significant person in my life.

It's easier to attack the critic than defend bad writing.

...

See the thing is, I don't need my hand held. I can put two and two together and think

You can't cope with that because you need to feel special, and need to be one of the special people that know why things happen.

I rest my case

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Since this is a continuation of the previous thread, a note

I just had to clean up a LOT of discussion about mental health, child abuse, and the like.

Please consider your words carefully on these topics.

[GloatingSwine]

Okay. So is having mental illness different from insane in the legal sense? For example, let's say Daenerys is paranoid. That's a form of mental illness. But does it rise to the level of being legally insane, of being unable to tell right from wrong?

From that perspective, there might be many people in the real world suffering from mental illness (depression, for example) who would still be considered fully culpable for their actions in cour.t

Respectfully,

Brian P.

For an insanity defence in court you have to show that the defendant was, either persistently or at the time of the offence, not able to comprehend the criminal nature of their actions.

The vast majority of mental illness never even gets near that, or is totally orthogonal to it, which is why it’s super rare as a criminal defence.

We’re talking Lenny from Of Mice and Men here.

Nobody in A Song of Ice and Fire should be regarded as insane barring Aerys. It’s a disservice to the writing and variety of motivation it presents to do so.

They’re all aware of the wrongness of their actions. Some of them are just indifferent to it (Gregor, Drogo) enjoy it (Joffrey, Ramsay) or rationalise it as necessary (Tywin).

[gomipile]

So, I made a low-ish effort image macro for people who have seen both Avengers: Infinity War and Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 5:

Spoiler

Show

I wonder if thiswill seem to be more or less appropriate after S8E6 airs on Sunday.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah, Dr. Samurai you have been "attacking critics" and defending bad writing for most of the previous thread.

You see people as attacking you, by your own choice of words... ie "Defending yourself"

You don't criticize anything about Dany at all. You just try to turn criticism into attacks, and defend a crappy character, then you take actual criticism of a character as personal attacks on your character.

See this is why I try to talk in generalities. If I try talking to people directly... it suddenly turns into .. YOU ARE ATTACKING ME!

See the thing is, your "'Criticism" mostly consists of .. It doesn't make sense! repeated over and over.

People have pointed out that it does make sense if you look at it a certain way. Your response is .. IT doesn't make sense! over and over.

The only reason it doesn't make sense is because you need things spelled out for youl

I mean take the Viper and Mountain fight. It wouldn't make sense if they didn't spend time holding your hand and telling you over and over that the mountain did something to the Viper, and that is why he was taking his time during the fight. I mean if it was dropped once in an episode that the Viper was wrong by the mountain, and they didn't mention it again, you would be one of those people that would be screaming, "IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! Why would the Viper waste his time and NOT kill the Mountain! BAD WRITING BAD WRITING. What do you mean it was mentioned a couple episodes ago!That makes no sense! If it mattered the would have told us numerous times!

Danys "heel turn" was told to us .. numerous times. In all occasions, it was usually someone that that had to dial her BURN THEM ALL response back.

Seriously in all your supposed instances of her "Victories" she has never faced the consequences of her just Blasting through. She goes though gets what she wants though no skill. Just straight up brute force and keeps going like a wrecking ball. She always leaves it for someone else to do the hardwork.

I don't know how to say it any other way, other people have tried to say ad nauseum. It just won't be seen by you. See, I can see what you are saying, and I can understand and sympathize in some instances. I just don't buy the excuses for her actions, She is a horrible character not worth defending. I can say the same about Hitler, I can probably find instances where he acts with compassion and humanity. That doesn't excuse his actions, nor any that are done in his name.

Which incidentally is why I don't get all the Vader love. I mean to me, seeing his face on merchandise is like seeing Hitlers face on everything. It's so weird.

[Rodin]

He was probably meaning Missan... whatever. The translator chick who was Dany's BFF.

This is actually the thing that bugs me the most about the entire "Dany goes nuts from grief and rage" plotline.

Missandei is just one person. How many other people died when the ship was sunk? How many others were taken captive? We don't hear word one about them. We don't hear anything about the sort of damage done to the fleet, we get no mourning, nothing. The horrifying news is "they've taken Missandei".

These things happen in wars. Dany's lost a ton of other people over the years. And yet, because Missandei is a Major Character, we are all supposed to care about her more than the nameless extra who just got disintegrated by a supersonic ballista bolt.

I get Daenerys going a bit berserk over losing one of the dragons. She considers them her children, the ones to replace the child she lost. And yet, they get the occasional mention while the show goes on "Missandei, Missandei, Missandei!" We just had something like 20000 guys die fighting the White Walkers!

It's just so infuriating to have the writers so blatantly trying to yank on my emotions with something that makes no sense.

------

And of course, my other perpetual rant - military tactics. The entire Golden Company standing outside the walls prior to a battle. WHY???? Do the writers really think that's how castle battles work? That 90% of the defenders go trooping out, say "let's have a nice, clean fight" to the enemy, and then meet on an open plain while ignoring the fortifications behind them? The Lannister troops are at least smart enough to stay behind the walls, but then decide to stand about in random pockets in the street instead of forming into an actual formation. Swords with no shields, not a spear in sight despite facing a combination of cavalry and phalanx troops.

You then have all the scorpions on the wall instead of, you know, positioned throughout the city so that they have intersecting fields of fire. Euron's fleet being at anchor for some ungodly reason, in close proximity to each other so Drogon can torch multiple ships in a single pass. Not a single scorpion on the walls of the Red Keep itself, despite it being the highest position in the city and thus ideal for placing missile weapons on. It's also the final holdout for Cersei, you'd think she would have defenses there.

I just...I can't even. Unlike the Battle of Winterfell, this battle didn't even have the good grace to be entertaining. It was just characters dying left and right without fulfilling their narrative arc, just because there's only two episodes to go and we have to give karmic death to all these people before the finale. I normally try and defend the show at least a little bit, but this was just...sad. The point where they really lost me was when the red mist came down over Daenerys when she looked at the Red Keep and she...begins torching the city. What the HELL? Torching the Red Keep and causing massive civilian casualties because Cersei herded people in there - sure. I can buy that given where her character has been going for the past couple seasons. But just deciding to firebomb the city out of existence? Strafing streets full of no soldiers, only mobs of terrified civilians? That is massively out of character for even Paranoid Dany.

Oh, and what was the deal with Arya and the horse? All of a sudden the episode stops and turns into a Peter Jackson film, and there doesn't even seem to have been a purpose for it. It's just...hey, here's this horse amongst the destruction, isn't it beautiful?

[pendell]

Missandei is just one person. How many other people died when the ship was sunk? How many others were taken captive? We don't hear word one about them. We don't hear anything about the sort of damage done to the fleet, we get no mourning, nothing. The horrifying news is "they've taken Missandei".

Thousands of people died today, and I don't feel a thing. Why is this?

It's not because I'm a monster, it's because for the sake of sanity we're wired up such that if we don't invest in people or things, emotionally, we don't feel anything when they die. It takes a will of effort to override this basic instinct from rationality.

Neither Danerys -- nor we, the audience -- know the number of people. But she's invested in Missandei. She's one of her few real friends. So she feels grief which, if not quite on the same level as losing her dragon, is still pretty strong.

Pretty much everyone she cares about has either failed her, betrayed her, or been killed. She's feeling lonely. A bad place to be when you have a dragon even without mental instability from the Targaryan side. She feels nothing for the citizens of King's Landing. If anything, she seems to blame them in part for all these things which happened.

Put all that in a pot, stew, what we saw is definitely a possible outcome.

The entire Golden Company standing outside the walls prior to a battle

The showrunners would probably argue the needs of TV outweigh the need of authenticity. They had to show the Golden Company being destroyed. A proper defense with proper tactics would probably look more like a war documentary; it would be difficult to watch, especially with both a time and money budget.

Oh, and what was the deal with Arya and the horse? All of a sudden the episode stops and turns into a Peter Jackson film, and there doesn't even seem to have been a purpose for it. It's just...hey, here's this horse amongst the destruction, isn't it beautiful?

Death on a pale horse. I'm sure that doesn't foreshadow Arya's upcoming role in the next episode in any way.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dienekes]

Death on a pale horse. I'm sure that doesn't foreshadow Arya's upcoming role in the next episode in any way.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I’m not saying your interpretation is wrong or doesn’t have merit. But I’m just going to say, if you’re going to have a random horse with death connotations that only a fraction of the audience will get saving Arya, it should have been Stranger.

[johnbragg]

I’m not saying your interpretation is wrong or doesn’t have merit. But I’m just going to say, if you’re going to have a random horse with death connotations that only a fraction of the audience will get saving Arya, it should have been Stranger.

Pretty sure it was the Horse With No Name. It felt good to be out of the rain.