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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    (This also means that anyone who says "I saw this coming from super early on" is wrong, you didn't because even George RR Martin didn't know what was coming that early on, he doesn't write like that. The characters rule where his story goes, not the plot.)
    I don’t think it’s this cut and dry. GRRM is a pantser, true, but he’s said the Hodor reveal was planned at the creation of the character, as was Jon Snow’s character, and if you read GoT again you’ll get a dream of a mountain crushing a viper putting the death of Oberyn hinted at 3 books before the character was even introduced.

    However, he admits he has no idea how the Meereen plot was supposed to go. Which is part of why it has taken him 10+ years to wrap it up.

    The books, moreso than the show, does drop hints that the Targ madness is in Dany. To the point my friend and I have argued about it since I got them to read the series. Which was back when book 3 was released.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2019-05-19 at 11:00 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    There's a certain amount of irony here. Stannis was willing to burn his own innocent daughter alive to achieve the throne, and as a direct result of this the army deserted him and his claim came to an end. Danerys has likely made the choice to burn innocents for the sake of her claim. How is she different, or better, than Stannis?
    Because when Daenerys started to burn down Cersei's lackeys that were too dumb to kneel, her whole army including the north's auxiliaries went "hell yeah!" and joined the cleansing of King's Landing. You don't see a single of Daenerys soldiers going "oh noes our queen is mad after all", they instead go "our queen is awesome, let's keep supporting her!".

    Except Jojo Snow, but considering GoT's average rate of backstabbing, a single dude turning is as close to perfection as you get.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-05-19 at 09:28 AM.
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    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I don’t think it’s this cut and dry. GRRM is a pantsed, true, but he’s said the Hodor reveal was planned at the creation of the character, as was Jon Snow’s character, and if you read GoT again you’ll get a dream of a mountain crushing a viper putting the death of Oberyn hinted at 3 books before the character was even introduced.

    However, he admits he has no idea how the Meereen plot was supposed to go. Which is part of why it has taken him 10+ years to wrap it up.

    The books, moreso than the show, does drop hints that the Targ madness is in Dany. To the point my friend and I have argued about it since I got them to read the series. Which was back when book 3 was released.
    I am also certain GRRM has indicated that he knows how the books will end (and said as much a long time ago), it's getting there that is the problem. Dany going mad makes a hell of a lot of sense in the context of the book, and I have no doubt GRRM has always intended it to go that way. Hell, I am willing to bet that the majority of the deaths and major actions (potentially including the Northmen slaughtering unarmed and surrendering Lannisters) that happened in episode 5 are exactly what he wanted to happen. I have no doubt as well that he laid out a fairly detailed description of how he wanted it to end.

    The problem is that once the show caught up with the books, and once GRRM's material was tapped they had to wing it and piece it together themselves with no direction. Hell, GRRM likely has very little idea on how to move the story along to where he wants it to end.

    He has likely always known roughly how the books would end, as that's the easy part. He likely hammered it out to what we have seen sometime early on in the show or by the time he got to book 4 and 5.

    He just had had very little idea on how to piece together what he has and now. The biggest failing of the show and Season 8 isn't anything they have done, its that they didn't do quite enough to set a lot of it up in the past few seasons.

    For instance, Jaime going to Cersei makes sense if you contemplate his character and his motives. It isn't character assassination as some would claim, because Jaime is a deeply troubled character. Him staying with Brienne would be a happy ending. Him killing Cersei would have been viscerally satisfying. Neither of which are true to his actual character and his personal conflicts. The problem is that they didn't really spend enough time on that.

    Dany going mad makes perfect sense in the context of the books, and isn't out-there for the show neither. The problem is that the show sped up her decline, and it was pretty sudden. It makes sense as to why she went mad when you have all the background information of the books, and a bit less so when you don't.

    The problem with the show isn't how they are ending it, but rather how they got here I feel. People wanting a happy-happy-joy-joy ending for their favorite characters seriously do not understand the subject matter or source material, or what GRRM has intended for the books.

    Edit: Looked it up. GRRM has stated that the showrunners known roughly how GRRM wants the series to end, but there will be a lot of divergent details. The major strokes, however, will stay the same.
    Last edited by TheMeMan; 2019-05-19 at 10:29 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeMan View Post
    I am also certain GRRM has indicated that he knows how the books will end (and said as much a long time ago), it's getting there that is the problem. Dany going mad makes a hell of a lot of sense in the context of the book, and I have no doubt GRRM has always intended it to go that way. Hell, I am willing to bet that the majority of the deaths and major actions (potentially including the Northmen slaughtering unarmed and surrendering Lannisters) that happened in episode 5 are exactly what he wanted to happen. I have no doubt as well that he laid out a fairly detailed description of how he wanted it to end.

    The problem is that once the show caught up with the books, and once GRRM's material was tapped they had to wing it and piece it together themselves with no direction. Hell, GRRM likely has very little idea on how to move the story along to where he wants it to end.

    He has likely always known roughly how the books would end, as that's the easy part. He likely hammered it out to what we have seen sometime early on in the show or by the time he got to book 4 and 5.

    He just had had very little idea on how to piece together what he has and now. The biggest failing of the show and Season 8 isn't anything they have done, its that they didn't do quite enough to set a lot of it up in the past few seasons.
    This would be much more convincing had they actually followed the books. They didn't.
    The most glaring issue is that they cut out Aegon and gave his (probable) role to Cersei.
    They put themselves in this mess, then decided to force elements of the books ending in their version even if it made no sense.

    And I seriously doubt that the books ending will really resemble that of the show. The biggest difference being that the Others and the Winter problem won't be dealt with before the Iron Throne.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    I'd say a big problem is that Danny's been on the road to be the final villain for a long time. But the show was too busy trying to make people like the character, that it was easy to miss or ignore that she was kinda a bad person. Now they've dropped the pretense and are letting people see her for what she is, and it's a shock instead of a slow reveal.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'd say a big problem is that Danny's been on the road to be the final villain for a long time. But the show was too busy trying to make people like the character, that it was easy to miss or ignore that she was kinda a bad person. Now they've dropped the pretense and are letting people see her for what she is, and it's a shock instead of a slow reveal.
    I don't have a big problem with her going evil. It was set up. Obvious, even. The big issue is her deciding to express that evilness by mass-murdering civilians without good justification. The episode repeatedly shows her strafing city streets containing nothing but terrified civilians, and there's never been any indication of that in her character throughout the show.

    And the galling thing is, there were ways available in the episode to show it. We see all the civilians being herded into the Red Keep. When the bell rings, Dany stares at the Red Keep with hate in her eyes. The woman who ordered the killing of Missandei is in there, the wife of the Usurper who has now become Usurper herself is in there. Dany processes all that...and decides to carpet bomb the civilian district. The only reason to jump straight to that is for shock value from the show. It pissed me off when they did it with Anakin going from "Jedi Order isn't for me" to slaughtering children in 10 seconds flat, and it pissed me off here.

    Have Dany go straight for the Red Keep. Show the terrified civilians within getting torched along with a bunch of surrendering soldiers. It matches Dany's characterization of the last couple seasons - Iron Throne at all costs, Usurper must die, soldiers had their chance to surrender and now they must burn. The horrifying thing becomes her decision to burn the civilians along with the soldiers and wage war without caring about collateral damage. You can still show the rest of the civilians in the city getting massacred and raped - after all, that was the entire argument against using the Dothraki to invade in the first place.

    I get what they were going for, but it's just so ham-handed.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    This would be much more convincing had they actually followed the books. They didn't.
    The most glaring issue is that they cut out Aegon and gave his (probable) role to Cersei.
    They put themselves in this mess, then decided to force elements of the books ending in their version even if it made no sense.

    And I seriously doubt that the books ending will really resemble that of the show. The biggest difference being that the Others and the Winter problem won't be dealt with before the Iron Throne.
    I'm almost certain that Daenerys's end will be largely the same. Only it will be far more reasonable with young Griff in the picture, an imposter stealing her just reward after all the sacrifices she made. And not barbecuing civilians for ****s and giggles.

    But this isn't the only change they made. In the books, Ramsay is married to a fake Arya. Sansa is learning from Littlefinger as he conspires in the Eyrie. The northern Lords are conspiring against the Boltons and the Freys, with fat Lord Manderly serving Frey pies on Ramsay's wedding feast and secretly helping Ser Davos retrieve Rickon before the North can rally behind Stannis. Stannis tells his men to "pray harder" to the Lord of Light when cut off by a blizzard instead of burning prisoners, and has swore those loyal to him that in case of his death they'll place his daughter on the throne or die trying. Varys has just murdered Kevan Lannister with a crossbow in order to maximise chaos before young Griff's arrival with the Golden Company. Ellaria Sand is trying to break the circle of violence and convince the Sand Snakes not to take revenge for Oberyn Martell's death on innocent Myrcella. Doran Martell is conspiring to return the Targaryens to the throne, and has sent his son Quenty to marry Daenerys and seal the alliance, though Quentyn is burned when he tries to tame the imprisoned dragons after Daenerys flees on Drogon's back. Ser Barristar Selmy is alive and well, ruling Meereen as regent for Daenerys after deposing her husband. Eurone Greyjoy is a much cooler character, with enslaved warlocks at his combat, a full suit of Valyrian Steel scale mail, a supposed Dragonbinder Horn, and an expressed desire to marry the Dragon Queen and become god among men. And I might even be forgetting other things they've changed.

    The showrunners started mucking things up even before they "ran out of material to adapt". That excuse holds no water. They just thought they could do better.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I don't have a big problem with her going evil. It was set up. Obvious, even. The big issue is her deciding to express that evilness by mass-murdering civilians without good justification. The episode repeatedly shows her strafing city streets containing nothing but terrified civilians, and there's never been any indication of that in her character throughout the show.

    And the galling thing is, there were ways available in the episode to show it. We see all the civilians being herded into the Red Keep. When the bell rings, Dany stares at the Red Keep with hate in her eyes. The woman who ordered the killing of Missandei is in there, the wife of the Usurper who has now become Usurper herself is in there. Dany processes all that...and decides to carpet bomb the civilian district. The only reason to jump straight to that is for shock value from the show. It pissed me off when they did it with Anakin going from "Jedi Order isn't for me" to slaughtering children in 10 seconds flat, and it pissed me off here.

    Have Dany go straight for the Red Keep. Show the terrified civilians within getting torched along with a bunch of surrendering soldiers. It matches Dany's characterization of the last couple seasons - Iron Throne at all costs, Usurper must die, soldiers had their chance to surrender and now they must burn. The horrifying thing becomes her decision to burn the civilians along with the soldiers and wage war without caring about collateral damage. You can still show the rest of the civilians in the city getting massacred and raped - after all, that was the entire argument against using the Dothraki to invade in the first place.

    I get what they were going for, but it's just so ham-handed.
    The difference here is that you want her to kill the people as a side effect of trying to kill Cerci. To me her killing the innocent people was the point. She was killing them to send a message to the rest of the world. The innocent people didn't get in the way, they were the target.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Personally I'm going to go with Tyrion for the next ruler. He now has an arguable claim.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Personally I'm going to go with Tyrion for the next ruler. He now has an arguable claim.
    ...By what metric does he have a claim to the throne? That he's the disinherited and attainted kinslayer younger brother of a Usurper who usurped the throne of an acclaimed king by murdering him and watching the other heirs die off?
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    I'm almost certain that Daenerys's end will be largely the same. Only it will be far more reasonable with young Griff in the picture, an imposter stealing her just reward after all the sacrifices she made. And not barbecuing civilians for ****s and giggles.

    But this isn't the only change they made. In the books, Ramsay is married to a fake Arya. Sansa is learning from Littlefinger as he conspires in the Eyrie. The northern Lords are conspiring against the Boltons and the Freys, with fat Lord Manderly serving Frey pies on Ramsay's wedding feast and secretly helping Ser Davos retrieve Rickon before the North can rally behind Stannis. Stannis tells his men to "pray harder" to the Lord of Light when cut off by a blizzard instead of burning prisoners, and has swore those loyal to him that in case of his death they'll place his daughter on the throne or die trying. Varys has just murdered Kevan Lannister with a crossbow in order to maximise chaos before young Griff's arrival with the Golden Company. Ellaria Sand is trying to break the circle of violence and convince the Sand Snakes not to take revenge for Oberyn Martell's death on innocent Myrcella. Doran Martell is conspiring to return the Targaryens to the throne, and has sent his son Quenty to marry Daenerys and seal the alliance, though Quentyn is burned when he tries to tame the imprisoned dragons after Daenerys flees on Drogon's back. Ser Barristar Selmy is alive and well, ruling Meereen as regent for Daenerys after deposing her husband. Eurone Greyjoy is a much cooler character, with enslaved warlocks at his combat, a full suit of Valyrian Steel scale mail, a supposed Dragonbinder Horn, and an expressed desire to marry the Dragon Queen and become god among men. And I might even be forgetting other things they've changed.

    The showrunners started mucking things up even before they "ran out of material to adapt". That excuse holds no water. They just thought they could do better.
    They also removed Lady Stoneheart, although I'm not sure of what role she is going to play in the books.
    And I think they changed Tyrion, making him the good angel on Dany shoulder. While in the books he's getting more twisted and violent. I believe that he could actually become Tywin worthy heir. Which would be really ironic.
    With such an advisor Dany fall would be even more believable. Two characters trying to distance themselves from their fathers just to become like them.
    Last edited by BlacKnight; 2019-05-19 at 01:21 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    They also removed Lady Stoneheart, although I'm not sure of what role she is going to play in the books.
    And I think they changed Tyrion, making him the good angel on Dany shoulder. While in the books he's getting more twisted and violent. I believe that he could actually become Tywin worthy heir. Which would be really ironic.
    With such an advisor Dany fall would be even more believable. Two characters trying to distance themselves from their fathers just to become like them.
    Well the books do keep making a point of saying that Tyrion is most similar to Tywin regardless of their mutual dislike of each other.
    The Books also have Patches, Griffs adviser who also has stone skin and Victarion Greyjoy who seems to be joining the red god faction while also fulfilling/screwing with Eurions plans.

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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yana View Post
    ...By what metric does he have a claim to the throne? That he's the disinherited and attainted kinslayer younger brother of a Usurper who usurped the throne of an acclaimed king by murdering him and watching the other heirs die off?
    Well, in the books, it's hinted that Tyrion is Dany's bastard half-brother. I doubt they'd go that way in the show with only one episode left to go, though.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I don't have a big problem with her going evil. It was set up. Obvious, even. The big issue is her deciding to express that evilness by mass-murdering civilians without good justification. The episode repeatedly shows her strafing city streets containing nothing but terrified civilians, and there's never been any indication of that in her character throughout the show.
    She has killed innocent civilians before, when issuing her "colective punishments" at Meereen. She has killed surrendered troops before, at the Roseroad. And she had good "justification" to do what she did in King's Landing: To send a message to everyone rooting for Jon Snow. What she did, she had done before. This time the scale has been much greater, but there is a first time for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    I'm almost certain that Daenerys's end will be largely the same. Only it will be far more reasonable with young Griff in the picture, an imposter stealing her just reward after all the sacrifices she made. And not barbecuing civilians for ****s and giggles.
    I don't see a lot of difference between your premise and the one shown in the series: Jon Snow, an "imposter" stealing her just reward after all the sacrifices she made. Barbecuing civilians to dissuade Jon Snow and his supporters from caiming her Iron Throne.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-05-19 at 03:20 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    She has killed innocent civilians before, when issuing her "colective punishments" at Meereen. She has killed surrendered troops before, at the Roseroad. And she had good "justification" to do what she did in King's Landing: To send a message to everyone rooting for Jon Snow. What she did, she had done before. This time the scale has been much greater, but there is a first time for everything.



    I don't see a lot of difference between your premise and the one shown in the series: Jon Snow, an imposter stealing her just reward after all the sacrifices she made. Barbecuing civilians to prevent anyone from pushing Jon Snow to claim her Iron Throne.
    IF that happens -- I'm not convinced the ostensible "leak" isn't a misleading plant -- then it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If she hadn't been so keen to "make an example", she'd have nothing to fear from Jon Snow, who is about as loyal a person as you can ask for. It would take something like mu-ha-ha genocide to cause him to flip, and now that's been done.

    As with Varys creating the dragon queen in the first place, it seems as if people in this show sow the seeds of their own destruction.

    ... assuming, of course, that Danerys doesn't actually live through the episode and instead ends the series ruling miserably ever after as a tyrant. I think it's just possible the show runners will go that way.

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    Last edited by pendell; 2019-05-19 at 03:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yana View Post
    ...By what metric does he have a claim to the throne? That he's the disinherited and attainted kinslayer younger brother of a Usurper who usurped the throne of an acclaimed king by murdering him and watching the other heirs die off?
    He's the sole surviving brother of the last monarch.

    Let's be clear. For ANY of the existing candidates, their claim is only as valid as others want it to be. The Targaryans were overthrown (and notice that most of the people of the Seven Kingdoms don't actually want them back), Robert had no living legitimate heirs, and Cersei is .. well, Cersei. Not counting war, the legitimacy of any candidate is going to be because the remaining nobles get together and decide that this is the person they can live with the easiest. By that metric, Tyrion's claim isn't that bad. I could see him being a very valid compromise candidate.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    The Baratheons claimed the throne not just by conquest, but also by being a far removed cadet branch of the Targaryens. Of course, in the show, all the Baratheons are dead too, so the show would go to whoever could claim the Baratheon title now.

    Which might just be no one, as the show seems to think that noble houses have about four people each and if they all die, their titles just stop existing.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The difference here is that you want her to kill the people as a side effect of trying to kill Cerci. To me her killing the innocent people was the point. She was killing them to send a message to the rest of the world. The innocent people didn't get in the way, they were the target.
    But what was the message?

    "Surrender or I burn you"?

    Except what happened was extremely rapid surrender then burning.

    "Dragons are really hard"?

    Except two have been killed already.

    The only message this course of action sends is "resist at all costs, and resistance vs. dragons is practical because anti-air weapons are available".


    Like many of the attempts to confabulate a reason for this happening that isn't as dumb as what happens on the show, there's a version of that that makes sense. But the show skipped important scenes like a proclamation at the parlay last episodes that this is what was going to happen if the city had to be taken by force.

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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    I don't see a lot of difference between your premise and the one shown in the series: Jon Snow, an "imposter" stealing her just reward after all the sacrifices she made. Barbecuing civilians to dissuade Jon Snow and his supporters from caiming her Iron Throne.
    If Daenerys was so afraid of Jon she could have just killed him.
    Or even better married him. Why nobody in the series has talked about a marriage between the two is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    He's the sole surviving brother of the last monarch.

    Let's be clear. For ANY of the existing candidates, their claim is only as valid as others want it to be. The Targaryans were overthrown (and notice that most of the people of the Seven Kingdoms don't actually want them back), Robert had no living legitimate heirs, and Cersei is .. well, Cersei. Not counting war, the legitimacy of any candidate is going to be because the remaining nobles get together and decide that this is the person they can live with the easiest. By that metric, Tyrion's claim isn't that bad. I could see him being a very valid compromise candidate.
    People take the famous quote "Power resides where men think it resides" in the wrong way. It doesn't mean that you can ignore law and tradition. On the opposite it means that those, while can be manipulated, are supremely important.
    The Baratheon legitimacy tracked back on the Targaryens. Every claimant to the IT in the war of the five kings caimed to be successor of Robert. Sure Renly was second in line but still second, not a nobody.
    Having many people following the laws of succession is kind of necessary for having a monarchy. If Westeros was total anarchy where nobody cared about legitimacy the Targaryens wouldn't have ruled for more than a century without dragons.

    Of course by show logic everything is possible, even Bran as king.

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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    If Daenerys was so afraid of Jon she could have just killed him.
    Or even better married him. Why nobody in the series has talked about a marriage between the two is beyond me.
    At least two people have suggested it, but Jon Snow isn't having it. Danerys is his aunt.

    Although, come to think of it, it does suggest another alternative: If she's old enough to be his mother, why doesn't she adopt him? Put him in the line of succession after her. That joins the families just as effectively, although it does mean she has to watch her food for more #teamjon types trying to poison her. But she'd have that problem in any event, I think.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2019-05-19 at 04:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    In terms of Jon's claim, if Dany wanted to undercut him she could have pushed the Night's Watch argument - that he forswore his claim when he took the black. I mean, it's right there in the blasted oath 'I will wear no crowns.' That ought to be more than enough as an excuse to avoid leadership on Jon's behalf. Further, anyone could make the argument that since Jon died once any connection to his lineage is forfeit. He's not the heir of Lynna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, he's a reanimated being loyal to the Lord of Light and as such is undeserving of the throne. The show has, since the very moment Jon got brought back, played super coy about the meaning of this event, to the point that now, at the end, it's going to ultimately mean nothing, which is ridiculous. If Jon's resurrection wasn't going to amount to anything he should simply have not been killed in the first place - his simply surviving the sudden mutiny is far more plausible than resurrection.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    At least two people have suggested it, but Jon Snow isn't having it. Danerys is his aunt.

    Although, come to think of it, it does suggest another alternative: If she's old enough to be his mother, why doesn't she adopt him? Put him in the line of succession after her. That joins the families just as effectively, although it does mean she has to watch her food for more #teamjon types trying to poison her. But she'd have that problem in any event, I think.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    She's not really old enough to be his mother, not even in teh series, where she's older. THat said, it's not the worst idea. If she's sterile and can't have children anyway, just make him Heir Apparent.

    One thing I was wondering. Between them, who has the first claim? Was Jon born before or after Rhaegar died? If Jon was born before Rhaegar died, he's the heir. But if he was born after, the crown might legally have gone to Viserys and then Dany first.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    In terms of Jon's claim, if Dany wanted to undercut him she could have pushed the Night's Watch argument - that he forswore his claim when he took the black. I mean, it's right there in the blasted oath 'I will wear no crowns.' That ought to be more than enough as an excuse to avoid leadership on Jon's behalf.
    Doesn't seem to bother the northmen, who crowned him as King in the North.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    If Jon's resurrection wasn't going to amount to anything he should simply have not been killed in the first place
    The point of his death and resurrection is that he is now free from his Night Watch Oath: "...and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death..."

    Well, three hours left for the final showdown. See you all tomorrow.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-05-19 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    The point of his death and resurrection is that he is now free from his Night Watch Oath: "...and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death..."
    Of course by that logic, death is the traditional disqualifier for kingship....

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    At least two people have suggested it, but Jon Snow isn't having it. Danerys is his aunt.
    Who did it ? I really don't remember.
    Either way that motivation is just another issue of having switched characters mentality from medieval-like to modern.
    Cousins marriage were normal among nobility, and Ned Stark parents were cousins. I don't think that aunt and nephew is much different. Not to say that the Targaryens went even further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    One thing I was wondering. Between them, who has the first claim? Was Jon born before or after Rhaegar died? If Jon was born before Rhaegar died, he's the heir. But if he was born after, the crown might legally have gone to Viserys and then Dany first.
    I'm not sure that it works that way. Rhaegar died before Aerys, so if he couldn't transfer his claim by dead it wouldn't matter when Jon was born.
    Unless you were intending if Aerys (and not Rhaegal) had died before Jon was born. In that case Viserys should have been king. And after him Dany, but it's possible that being female could have made her lose positions.

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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The difference here is that you want her to kill the people as a side effect of trying to kill Cerci. To me her killing the innocent people was the point. She was killing them to send a message to the rest of the world. The innocent people didn't get in the way, they were the target.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    She has killed innocent civilians before, when issuing her "colective punishments" at Meereen. She has killed surrendered troops before, at the Roseroad. And she had good "justification" to do what she did in King's Landing: To send a message to everyone rooting for Jon Snow. What she did, she had done before. This time the scale has been much greater, but there is a first time for everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by pendel View Post
    If I had a daughter and wanted to name her after a show character, I'd go for Eowyn or Katniss, both very cool people.

    Well in this spoilerish buzzfeed article the showrunners explain the character's motivation of the events. I personally consider this character assassination of the worst sort.

    First the important bit:
    Spoiler
    Show
    [ Michael Sapochnik, the director ] went on to give some insight into why Daenerys made the decision to torch King's Landing, explaining that she felt "empty" despite having achieving victory.

    He said: "She feels empty. It wasn't what she thought it was. It's not enough."

    The show's co-creator David Benioff explained: "Ultimately, she is who she is and that's a Targaryen. She has said repeatedly throughout the show, 'I will take what is mine with fire and blood,' and in this episode, she does it."


    Now my reaction:
    Spoiler
    Show
    You. Have. Got. To. Be. KIDDING. Me.

    She destroyed thousands of innocent lives in fire for the feels? Because simple victory wasn't satisfying enough?

    Look, if a character to succeed we have to see their descent into evil as plausible, paved by the best intentions. Not simple destructiveness on a whim. That isn't even evil. It's just psychopathy.

    This isn't GRR Martin's Danerys. This is some hollywood caricature motivated solely by emotion. Ridiculous.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    I will keep quoting pendell's post until people actually read it. Seriously, the behind the scenes segments this season have been enlightening.

    I don't see a lot of difference between your premise and the one shown in the series: Jon Snow, an "imposter" stealing her just reward after all the sacrifices she made. Barbecuing civilians to dissuade Jon Snow and his supporters from caiming her Iron Throne.
    You really don't see a difference between Young Griff sitting on the Iron Throne and fighting against her, and Jon Snow the man she loves who is fighting for her?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    IF that happens -- I'm not convinced the ostensible "leak" isn't a misleading plant -- then it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If she hadn't been so keen to "make an example", she'd have nothing to fear from Jon Snow, who is about as loyal a person as you can ask for. It would take something like mu-ha-ha genocide to cause him to flip, and now that's been done.

    As with Varys creating the dragon queen in the first place, it seems as if people in this show sow the seeds of their own destruction.

    ... assuming, of course, that Danerys doesn't actually live through the episode and instead ends the series ruling miserably ever after as a tyrant. I think it's just possible the show runners will go that way.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    The leak happened right after episode 3. It has been spot on so far. If it's a plant, it was masterfully done.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    At least two people have suggested it, but Jon Snow isn't having it. Danerys is his aunt.

    Although, come to think of it, it does suggest another alternative: If she's old enough to be his mother, why doesn't she adopt him? Put him in the line of succession after her. That joins the families just as effectively, although it does mean she has to watch her food for more #teamjon types trying to poison her. But she'd have that problem in any event, I think.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Daenerys is his aunt, but they were born within a few months of each other. In the last months of his reign, the Mad King sent his wife and second son to Dragonstone for safety. Daenerys was born there. Jon Snow was born right after the end of the rebellion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    She's not really old enough to be his mother, not even in teh series, where she's older. THat said, it's not the worst idea. If she's sterile and can't have children anyway, just make him Heir Apparent.

    One thing I was wondering. Between them, who has the first claim? Was Jon born before or after Rhaegar died? If Jon was born before Rhaegar died, he's the heir. But if he was born after, the crown might legally have gone to Viserys and then Dany first.
    It doesn't matter. The claim goes fistborn -> firstborn's children -> secondborn. Jon is ahead of even Viserys in the line of succession.
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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    She has killed innocent civilians before, when issuing her "colective punishments" at Meereen. She has killed surrendered troops before, at the Roseroad. And she had good "justification" to do what she did in King's Landing: To send a message to everyone rooting for Jon Snow. What she did, she had done before. This time the scale has been much greater, but there is a first time for everything.
    Except, she considers all of the masters to be criminals worthy of death from the get-go, and that's a fairly understandable motivation. They're not definitely guilty of the crime she killed them in relation to, but she's always considered them guilty of slavery. Yes, I think her desire to kill them all is immoral. But let's make a -10 to 10 scale from 10 being an act of pure good, 0 being neutral, and -10 something like killing puppies by throwing live human babies at them. I rate killing the "innocent at the time, but still guilty of slavery Masters" as maybe a -1.5. Whereas, her recent actions rate at probably a solid -10. I don't think she's ever gotten past maybe a -2 with her actions so far, and that's a bit of a leap.

    Also, the portrayal of her current breakdown as a direct result of people betraying her because they fear she might break down seems too circular. It just feels unearned and lazy.

    I don't disagree that her turn was foreshadowed, but I think it was poorly developed.

    As a YouTuber recently said "foreshadowing is not character development." Foreshadowing a major change in a character but failing to develop it so it can come off as a big twist is not good writing. It's shocking, but doesn't serve the narrative well outside of that shock.
    Last edited by gomipile; 2019-05-19 at 05:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    If Daenerys was so afraid of Jon she could have just killed him.
    Or even better married him. Why nobody in the series has talked about a marriage between the two is beyond me.



    People take the famous quote "Power resides where men think it resides" in the wrong way. It doesn't mean that you can ignore law and tradition. On the opposite it means that those, while can be manipulated, are supremely important.
    The Baratheon legitimacy tracked back on the Targaryens. Every claimant to the IT in the war of the five kings caimed to be successor of Robert. Sure Renly was second in line but still second, not a nobody.
    Having many people following the laws of succession is kind of necessary for having a monarchy. If Westeros was total anarchy where nobody cared about legitimacy the Targaryens wouldn't have ruled for more than a century without dragons.

    Of course by show logic everything is possible, even Bran as king.
    Yeah, the show kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater when they crowned Cersei. There's no logical reason why ANY of the lords would support her. She has precisely zero legitimacy, and is a woman besides. It makes all of the problems Daenerys has with getting them to accept a female queen seem contradictory - they've already accepted Cersei as queen. In reality, Cersei would have been out on her ass the instant Tommen decided to take a walk out the window. There would be yet another succession crisis and the south would be in civil war again. House Lannister might have retained control of King's Landing, but it certainly wouldn't be Cersei calling the shots.

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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Spoiler: Kyberwulf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Yeah, Dr. Samurai you have been "attacking critics" and defending bad writing for most of the previous thread.
    Kyberwulf, you don't know what words mean, and your posts are barely readable, so forgive me if I roll my eyes when you say I've been "defending" bad writing this whole time.

    As for attacking others, I don't think you're wrong (especially now, lol). I've certainly accused Malifice of being obsessed with alignment. I think his argument basically boils down to "Dany has been EVIL all along, but you all deceived yourselves into thinking she was the second coming of Christ, and this heel turn is your just desserts for being so quick to justify atrocities you simps".

    If I were to make things personal, as you and he have done by wondering aloud at all the reasons people "really" don't like this heel turn, I'd guess that he has a chip on his shoulder about alignment (backed up by various alignment thread debates where I've actually agreed with him on a fair number of occasions) and he thinks this series is some social experiment that validates/vindicates his own hard-line stance on a TTRP's alignment system. He goes so far as to say that many people are now reflecting on why they were able to justify Dany's action all along until now, as if the casual viewer is really thinking about this on some much deeper level *AND* holds the writers as some authority on morality and ethics.

    It's pretty ridiculous. But I think that's what is at the heart of Malifice's position, more than anything reflected by the show itself. As for you... well you're constantly guessing at everyone's intentions and attributing to them bad intentions or poor reasoning, so this is nothing new from you. I mean... calling Olenna's advice to Dany "toxic feminism" is pretty run of the mill from what you might take away from a show.
    You don't criticize anything about Dany at all. You just try to turn criticism into attacks, and defend a crappy character, then you take actual criticism of a character as personal attacks on your character.
    Telling someone they need their hands held and they balk at a events in a show because they have a need to feel special is not a criticism of Dany, it is a criticism of the person you're speaking to.
    See the thing is, your "'Criticism" mostly consists of .. It doesn't make sense! repeated over and over.
    Yes, backed up with pretty solid reasoning and examples taken from the show itself. I don't have to start labeling the people that disagree with me, or become an armchair psychologist to make my case. I can simply draw from the series. And I have been.
    People have pointed out that it does make sense if you look at it a certain way.
    "if you look at it a certain way"

    Yes, that right there is the entire crux of the issue Kyberwulf.

    I think "the way" you guys are looking at it doesn't make sense.

    As an example, you and Malifice have suggested that Dany is somehow emotionally unstable or ruled by her emotions. If we actually go back to the show, this is not supported at all. We see how she reacts to Raegal getting killed. She doesn't kamikaze the fleet (and we know now she could have easily destroyed the fleet). We see how she reacts to Missandei getting killed. She doesn't take King's Landing and we know she could have easily done so. Remember when good ol' Malifice was predicting that Dany was going to kill Bran and Sam because they knew Jon is a Targaryen? And I said that would be completely out of character?

    Do you know why I was right and he was wrong? It's because I have a better read on the character from watching the show. So do many others. That's why this last episode was so controversial.

    Another example... people are saying Dany's first instinct is always to "kill everyone". I went through various moments (as far as my memory could go) in the series to demonstrate that this wasn't the case. I asked for examples from the show to prove this point. I got nothing.

    Another example is you guys say all she ever cared about was the throne. Meanwhile, Jorah tells her flat out that conquering Slaver's Bay and liberating the hundreds of thousands of slaves there won't help her win Westeros, and would actually delay her. She does it anyway. Then on Westeros, she once again delays her campaign to fight the White Walkers.

    It's literally like you guys are watching a different version of this show.

    If you're trying to avoid a double standard for Dany (or making **** up), then the only thing you can really go on is:

    1. Dany said "fire and blood" and "I will return cities to dust" that one time.
    2. This is foreshadowing that Dany is capable of killing thousands of innocent people for no reason.

    And this is a very weak argument to justify the atrocity at King's Landing. We know that she was threatening to destroy Qarth because they were leaving her out in the desert to die. Well, her dragons were grown when she left Meereen and Qarth is still standing. But instead of taking that line as what it was, an angry and desperate girl hurling impotent threats, it's supposed to be some sort of ingenious clue that one day... she will choose to systematically eradicate all the poor people in King's Landing. Oh, and another time, when again she was desperate and not receiving aid, she yelled out the words of her House. Oh my god! Clever foreshadowing... Meanwhile, we're supposed to ignore what she *actually does*, and hang on to these two quotes all the way up to the second to last episode to see this massacre coming.

    This is "the certain way" I have to look at it for it to make sense. And that simply doesn't make sense to me.
    I don't know how to say it any other way, other people have tried to say ad nauseum. It just won't be seen by you. See, I can see what you are saying, and I can understand and sympathize in some instances. I just don't buy the excuses for her actions, She is a horrible character not worth defending. I can say the same about Hitler, I can probably find instances where he acts with compassion and humanity. That doesn't excuse his actions, nor any that are done in his name.

    Which incidentally is why I don't get all the Vader love. I mean to me, seeing his face on merchandise is like seeing Hitlers face on everything. It's so weird.
    No one is excusing her actions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mecalich
    It's very arguable that Dany needs to make a statement to demonstrate that yes, she's still the real power in Westeros. The biggest problem is, in episode 5 she makes such a statement immediately prior to her rampage. Drogon annihilates the Iron Fleet, the Golden Company, and the entire outer ring of Lannister defense all by himself. That's huge. If we fought a battle today, in the 21st century, and a force of 20,000 got summarily annihilated without ding the slightest bit of damage to their opponents that would be a massive military story. In Westeros its almost unbelievable. During the original Aegon's conquests, the biggest battle was the Field of Fire, in which three dragons killed 4,000 men and inflicted injuries on another 10,000. Drogon's accomplishments eclipsed those of his mighty forebears in one engagement.

    And if Daenerys really felt she needed to make a further statement, she could have launched an immediate attack on the Red Keep itself - where Cersei actually was. Massacring a bunch of powerless noncombatants who aren't even in her way - since she can just fly over them - isn't making any kind of statement at all beyond 'I like to burn stuff.'
    Agreed. This is why it appears she massacred those people "for no reason". It's very flimsy justification, and more could have been done that would have seemed more plausible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart
    Look, at this point the way I rationalise the whole scene is to simply headcanon it that Daenerys had already decided to go Full Dresden on KL days ago, back on Dragonstone. She'd already decided to make an example of the city, both to Cersei personally and to the lords of Westeros generally. Insofar as Daenerys has or may have gone Hollywood Nuts, that happened back when they took Missandei's head off. Daenerys doesn't go to KL (in my headcanon) with any expectation that the city will surrender, she has no intent to even allow them the chance to surrender at all; it's not that she always tells the truth like Kal-El from Krypton, she sort of fobs the idea of surrender off despite Tyrion's pleas.

    It's the sudden ringing of the bells by the common people that causes her to stop and think for a moment. That scene with the bells I like to rationalise as Daenerys having one last struggle of conscience about what she's going to do before resolving that she has no other way to do this and going right ahead. There's a little sob in there, she may have some realisation of what she's about to do, it might be grief for Missandei, but - just for myself - the scene works a hell of a lot better if I think of Daenerys being offered one last chance to not go Sith Lord and Dark Queen, and she wilfully turns her back on it and chooses violence. The fixed gaze on the Red Keep functions either as Daenerys having the temptation to be merciful but then remembering her opponent, or even possibly Danaerys looking at something that represents 300 years of her family's rule - something that she is about to burn down. But, for whatever reason, she sticks to her original plan -- as does Grey Worm, my headcanon is that she had ordered him to accept no surrender anyway.

    I like to think there's some support for that theory given the way the sequence plays out is that Daenerys stops for a second and seems to pause looking over the city on Drogon's back. She's never had this perspective on the city she has a birthright to; we have to remember this is literally the first time she's ever seen King's Landing - from the air or otherwise. It's what makes her stop and think for a moment, and the pressure is turned up when the bells start ringing and it's made clear to her that the common people are surrendering. But then she looks at the Red Keep, remembers Cersei ... and is lost. No madness required, perhaps.
    I could get behind something like this. I don't like it; I don't think it's in her character. But I like that it's already a decision she made. Especially given that she told Tyrion the people now would suffer so that the people of the future would live in a better world. I mean... that line needed to be forced in there to help explain what was about to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Exactly. And that's whats throwing everyone.

    Before when she was murdering people, the writers gave her a plausible justification for most of those murders. The end result was many didnt see her as a violent mass killer, despite her being one.
    We all knew she was a killer before Malifice. That's not what is throwing everyone at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'd say a big problem is that Danny's been on the road to be the final villain for a long time. But the show was too busy trying to make people like the character, that it was easy to miss or ignore that she was kinda a bad person. Now they've dropped the pretense and are letting people see her for what she is, and it's a shock instead of a slow reveal.
    Rather, I think people are so easy to accept the heel turn because it was "easy to miss or ignore that she was kinda a [good] person" as well. Dany's ruthlessness is almost entirely aimed at people in power and people that cause misery and suffering. And her will and action before going to Westeros was largely aimed at helping the masses. These actions, combined with many of the sentiments she expresses in the show, come together to depict a person that has empathy and compassion and cares about the people.

    The ruthless violence that makes her "kinda a bad person" in the show combines with all of that to help make her a complex person. But I would argue that it doesn't suggest she would kill the very same people she has been championing until now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin
    The big issue is her deciding to express that evilness by mass-murdering civilians without good justification. The episode repeatedly shows her strafing city streets containing nothing but terrified civilians, and there's never been any indication of that in her character throughout the show.
    Agreed. All the bad stuff she's done doesn't point to something like this.

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    Default Re: Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I could get behind something like this. I don't like it; I don't think it's in her character. But I like that it's already a decision she made. Especially given that she told Tyrion the people now would suffer so that the people of the future would live in a better world. I mean... that line needed to be forced in there to help explain what was about to happen.
    I agree with pretty much everything else you said, but I'm afraid that's nothing but headcanon. The showrunners have made it clear that Daenerys decided to burn the city while perched on the walls, after she had burnt the fleet, the walls, and the golden company with zero civilian casualties, after the city had surrender. I'm not gonna quote pendel again, the post is right above. But I am going to quote D.B. Weiss, from the behind the scenes segment after episode 5.

    "I don't think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is to her the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It's in that moment, on the walls of King's Landing, where she's looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to - to make this personal."
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