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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    I can see why you would not want to mix Barbarian but would have thought a Rogue with something like bard or Arcane Trickster with some Wizard levels would work well?
    Kinda?

    The problem with casting as a Rogue is that the Rogue's primary class feature requires a weapon attack. Meaning that, in almost every situation, you're unable to be both a caster and a Rogue.

    The Arcane Trickster kinda gets around this by:
    • Not having combat spells (Minor Illusion)
    • Having spells that don't interfere with a Rogue's attacks (Booming Blade, Fog Cloud)
    • Having a powerful feature that helps with debuffing enemies while also assisting with attacks (using spells like Hold Person).



    But overall, you'll find that the list of spells that actually fit that bill get smaller and smaller the higher level spells you get. If you were to hybrid an Arcane Trickster with a caster, you'd eventually have to decide whether you want to be a Rogue or a caster. At that point, it ceases to be a synergistic relationship, and you're simply buying versatility (similar to a Cleric/Druid multiclass) instead of power and versatility (Fighter + Rogue).

    Bard doesn't do much in combat, and many of the things that Bards do (Bardic Inspiration, Healing Word) don't interfere with a Rogue's primary feature. But just like with the Arcane Trickster, this will not be as true as you gain Bard levels.

    The difference between, say, a Barbarian/Rogue multiclass, and a Bard/Rogue multiclass, is that a Barbarian/Rogue never has to choose between being either a Barbarian or a Rogue. He simply IS.

    Although I would like to see that change. It's a damn shame that they missed the chance to make the Arcane Trickster have some sort of Sneak Attack spell scaling. Without that, Rogue/Caster multiclasses will almost always be a suboptimal choice.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-05-17 at 10:46 AM.
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    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    The difference between, say, a Barbarian/Rogue multiclass, and a Bard/Rogue multiclass, is that a Barbarian/Rogue never has to choose between being either a Barbarian or a Rogue. He simply IS.
    I think you're underrating Rogue as a multiclass option. It works well for dips and in some cases even for deeper splits, even for spellcasters.

    Barbarian/Rogue has a tradeoff similar to Rogue/spellcaster. E.g. if you want Sneak Attack damage, you can't be using Barbarian-style GWM at the same time.

    Roguesinger (Rogue 2/Bladesinger X) is loads of fun and very durable and versatile while still remaining an almost-full spellcaster, and someday I'd love to try out the Friendster out as well (Arcane Tricker 9/Enchanter 11, sneak ahead of the party and spam doubled (Split Enchantment) Charm Monster at advantage from Magical Ambush to turn monsters friendly and then use them against other monsters, plus other stuff during combat like Split Enchantment: Tasha's or Suggestion, or Cunning Action (Hide) + Magical Ambush: Fear/Hypnotic Pattern).

    Don't overlook the synergy between Sneak Attack and Greenflame/Booming Blade. You can hold your concentration on a big spell like Hypnotic Pattern, and still use your weapon + Sneak Attack + Greenflame/Booming Blade + Cunning Action (Disengage), which is way better damage than plinking away with Fire Bolt.
    June 17, 2019: No longer on GITP due to frustrations with forum technology and culture. Find me on Reddit as hemlockR.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Hello.

    Since I've mostly ran Dragon Warriors games where multiclassing didn't exist at all, I'm more used to single class player characters and therefore will politely ask all my players to understand me not using the optional rules in-campaign. I'm fine with Feats and Variant Human, though.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    It tends to come around, like alignment, quite often.
    Concur. And for someone it might be the first time they see such a thread. Not everyone checks the site most days of the week.

    (Next time I am in San Antonio, I may PM you ahead of time to maybe meet for a coffee or a beer? I'll let you know by PM).
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Kinda?

    The problem with casting as a Rogue is that the Rogue's primary class feature requires a weapon attack. Meaning that, in almost every situation, you're unable to be both a caster and a Rogue.

    The Arcane Trickster kinda gets around this by:
    • Not having combat spells (Minor Illusion)
    • Having spells that don't interfere with a Rogue's attacks (Booming Blade, Fog Cloud)
    • Having a powerful feature that helps with debuffing enemies while also assisting with attacks (using spells like Hold Person).



    But overall, you'll find that the list of spells that actually fit that bill get smaller and smaller the higher level spells you get. If you were to hybrid an Arcane Trickster with a caster, you'd eventually have to decide whether you want to be a Rogue or a caster. At that point, it ceases to be a synergistic relationship, and you're simply buying versatility (similar to a Cleric/Druid multiclass) instead of power and versatility (Fighter + Rogue).

    Bard doesn't do much in combat, and many of the things that Bards do (Bardic Inspiration, Healing Word) don't interfere with a Rogue's primary feature. But just like with the Arcane Trickster, this will not be as true as you gain Bard levels.

    The difference between, say, a Barbarian/Rogue multiclass, and a Bard/Rogue multiclass, is that a Barbarian/Rogue never has to choose between being either a Barbarian or a Rogue. He simply IS.

    Although I would like to see that change. It's a damn shame that they missed the chance to make the Arcane Trickster have some sort of Sneak Attack spell scaling. Without that, Rogue/Caster multiclasses will almost always be a suboptimal choice.
    I actually quite like my rogue/warlock (arcane trickster/fey warlock) multiclass (currently 8/5). Devil's sight is extremely useful for a rogue in the dark since you avoid disadvantage on those pesky perception checks to find traps. Faerie fire and darkness+devils sight contribute additional ways to obtain advantage and trigger sneak attack. Thirsting blade at level 5 allows for two sneak attack opportunities and improved pact weapon lets him use a long bow for it. (Hexblade might have been mechanically better but fey fit the character background better). In addition, the arcane trickster picks up two level 3 spell slots to supplement their casting ability.

    Arcane trickster rogue/bladesinger wizard is another decent caster/rogue multiclass though it usually uses one or the other as a dip.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    One interesting thing about these threads is that they often seem to get started by people who are opposed to multiclassing for some reason as if they are looking for justification from the wider community for this viewpoint and then the threads typically come out overwhelmingly in favor of allowing multiclassing.

    The majority of folks posting here appear to be quite open to multiclassing (myself included). So I am kind of curious about the folks who don't allow for multiclassing and why they would be opposed to it.

    Are they concerned about OP builds? (I don't think there are any personally ... multiclassing has a significant opportunity cost in almost all cases)
    Are they concerned about narrative? (I find that a decent background story can account for any combination of classes no matter how strange)
    Are they concerned about complication? (I think this strongly depends upon the players and for a group of new players I agree multiclassing might not be the best idea)
    Do they just prefer characters with better defined roles and find the provided archetypes to be sufficient?

    Finally, in my experience, there is far more difference between characters created by players who optimize than players who don't than there is due to characters built with multiclassing than those built without. I agree that an optmized character in a party can make the other characters feel less effective but multiclassing isn't typically the cause of this issue so preventing multiclassing won't create more balanced characters if the players aren't also in agreement with how to build their characters.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuzza View Post
    If a player wants to do something, I'll go out of my way to accommodate it as an enabler of fun.

    Fortunately we're not a power playing bunch, heck, the Sorc didn't even take Haste at 5. :P
    This is where I stand as well, but I tend to do this by refluffing or modifying existing classes rather than multiclassing.

    I generally donít encourage multi-classing, and permit players to multiclass only on an exception basis.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    The majority of folks posting here appear to be quite open to multiclassing (myself included). So I am kind of curious about the folks who don't allow for multiclassing and why they would be opposed to it.
    To the extent I mind 5E-style multiclassing, it's because it's fiddly and mechanical instead of fiction-driven, and it tends to put more emphasis than I'd prefer on details which ought to be small such as whether you choose your subclass at level 1 or level 3.

    I can certainly imagine running a campaign in which 5E-style multiclassing is disallowed in favor of AD&D-style multiclassing (split XP between multiple classes and advance in both simultaneously), and the only classes available are Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue, with specific multiclass combinations allowed based on the game fiction. (E.g. elves are famous for being skilled at both swordplay and magic, so Fighter/Wizard would be valid for elves.)

    This approach puts a lot more emphasis on the fictional archetypes involved and less on fiddly little mechanical details, and overall I like it better than 5E-style build-a-class multiclassing. But it's more work and more houserules, so I haven't ever done it this way, yet.
    June 17, 2019: No longer on GITP due to frustrations with forum technology and culture. Find me on Reddit as hemlockR.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    One interesting thing about these threads is that they often seem to get started by people who are opposed to multiclassing for some reason as if they are looking for justification from the wider community for this viewpoint and then the threads typically come out overwhelmingly in favor of allowing multiclassing.
    Since you (sorta) asked, I was getting tired of passing over all the multiclassing optimization threads (because no personal interest) and wanted to see what the other DMs here thought. I wasn't specifically looking for (and don't expect to find) self-justification, but I was looking for other's justification for the use of a (barely?) optional rule that seems to take up much of the discussion in this forum.

    I appreciate your meta analysis. It was insightful!

    This thread has been also instructive to me.
    Last edited by Kurt Kurageous; 2019-05-17 at 02:51 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    I actually quite like my rogue/warlock (arcane trickster/fey warlock) multiclass (currently 8/5). Devil's sight is extremely useful for a rogue in the dark since you avoid disadvantage on those pesky perception checks to find traps. Faerie fire and darkness+devils sight contribute additional ways to obtain advantage and trigger sneak attack. Thirsting blade at level 5 allows for two sneak attack opportunities and improved pact weapon lets him use a long bow for it. (Hexblade might have been mechanically better but fey fit the character background better). In addition, the arcane trickster picks up two level 3 spell slots to supplement their casting ability.

    Arcane trickster rogue/bladesinger wizard is another decent caster/rogue multiclass though it usually uses one or the other as a dip.
    I'm not saying you're wrong - those are some really good combinations - but I think those have more to do with a caster's ability to attack, not the Rogue's support for casters.

    Or, put another way, casters have to find some kind of weapon-attack trick in order to justify Rogue levels. If the Warlock was focused on Eldritch Blast usage, it might be hard to figure out how Rogue fits in.

    The reason Rogue/Caster ever works is because of some sort of sacrifice on the caster's part. On the other hand, though, a Fighter/Ranger/Monk/Barbarian + Rogue doesn't have to miss out on much at all. Even in the example of the Barbarian, they miss out on big weapons (+2 damage) to get Sneak Attack (+3.5 damage) and a shield.
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    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    I do, but only because my table is a bunch of freakin' NERDS who like reading all the rules and making weird mechanical stuff using the game's mechanics as a restraint. The classes and their abilities serve as inspiration to the adventure and the roleplaying; mixing and matching those abilities is kind of like mixing and matching flavors of ice cream or what have you. It works for us.

    But I can totally understand why some (or even most tables) wouldn't bother with it. For starters, from what I understand, a lot of play happens at or around level 5, and if you managed to delay your access to 3rd level spells or Extra Attack you're likely to be out in the cold for a while. Not a lot of fun for most players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    What's the most powerful Fighter? A Full Fighter.
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    I'm not saying you're wrong - those are some really good combinations - but I think those have more to do with a caster's ability to attack, not the Rogue's support for casters.

    Or, put another way, casters have to find some kind of weapon-attack trick in order to justify Rogue levels. If the Warlock was focused on Eldritch Blast usage, it might be hard to figure out how Rogue fits in.

    The reason Rogue/Caster ever works is because of some sort of sacrifice on the caster's part. On the other hand, though, a Fighter/Ranger/Monk/Barbarian + Rogue doesn't have to miss out on much at all. Even in the example of the Barbarian, they miss out on big weapons (+2 damage) to get Sneak Attack (+3.5 damage) and a shield.
    I don't understan, which is the casters sacrifice? If you mean the casting level lost by getting rogue levels, well it may be more evident than the other classes, since those improve every lvl, but most classes lose something relevant by taking lvls in another class.

    And on the Barbarian/rogue thing, they are also losing access to PAM or GWM which are pretty common picks for Barbs, so the loss of damage is greater.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    I don't understan, which is the casters sacrifice? If you mean the casting level lost by getting rogue levels, well it may be more evident than the other classes, since those improve every lvl, but most classes lose something relevant by taking lvls in another class.

    And on the Barbarian/rogue thing, they are also losing access to PAM or GWM which are pretty common picks for Barbs, so the loss of damage is greater.
    Using the Warlock example, the Warlock took invocations, spells, and a pact boon that all are centered around attacking with a weapon. Another Warlock could be nearly as effective spamming Eldritch Blast at 120 feet with Hex, going full Warlock, while having a boon left over.

    I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits, I'm saying that's what the BEST case scenario looks like.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-05-17 at 03:46 PM.
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    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
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    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Ironic, it's it?

    This thread is now about comparative multiclassing.

    Just like almost all of the others.

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Using the Warlock example, the Warlock took invocations, spells, and a pact boon that all are centered around attacking with a weapon. Another Warlock could be nearly as effective spamming Eldritch Blast at 120 feet with Hex, going full Warlock, while having a boon left over.

    I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits, I'm saying that's what the BEST case scenario looks like.
    But now you are comparing different things, you are comparing a Bladelock to a EB spammer, you should compare a Bladelock with a dip in rogue against another Bladelock that got more lock levels instead of the Rogue dip. Before lvl 12, I agree Rog is not an improvement, sidegrade at best, after lvl 12, however, I think its pretty valid.

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonslayer666 View Post
    I allow it with restrictions. I don't like the power dips (like 2 levels of Warlock). They seem pretty cheesy. I encourage interesting characters over optimized.

    I allow it because I want the players to have lots of choices.
    What about making a powerful character stops the character from being interesting?

    There's no conflict between powerful, effective characters and good roleplaying or fun backstories.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    What about making a powerful character stops the character from being interesting?

    There's no conflict between powerful, effective characters and good roleplaying or fun backstories.
    Same with playing what's fun - to several players, optimizing their build is their fun. Or they just happen to have fun with a character concept that happens to be mechanically powerful.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    I disallow it, due to the trend of Players getting sucked into a rabbit hole of numbers and optimization. To still keep a similar number of character concepts available, I allow Multiclassing with Sidekick classes.
    Works out great.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    I don't see any downside. I might discourage a specific MC if I thought it was going to overshadow another character at the table. (So if we already had a pure warlock, a sorlock might not be a great idea, for example).

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Not in my primary campaign.

    Because it's competing with AL at other tables in the same game stores on the same nights, and it needed to be different. Being a persistent vaguely west marches style campaign helps, but not enough when it's open table.

    Because I played a ton of 3e in home games, ran lots of official 4e, and played in 5e AL. I had plenty of first hand experience with how abusive many people could get with the multiclassing and feats rules. They aren't remotely balanced, and require active policing and/or tweaking by the DM. Some combinations are fine, others need to be powered down or powered up. That's fine in a single group of players for an entire game, where you can easily work one-on-one with them. Not so much for open table.

    Because I was on a D&D Classic kick at the time, and I couldn't get a campaign started around it. No one wanted to do that, they all wanted to play 5e. And single class no feat matches the feel fairly well.


    In one shots, meaning single adventures up to a few months of sessions, I've had character creation rules run the gamut. Many are freely multiclassing and feats. I've even done two where everyone had to start as a level of Rogue and Cleric respectively, then could multiclass into whatever. In both cases, it set the tone for most likely follow up levels, due to what the classes play nice with.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I disallow it, due to the trend of Players getting sucked into a rabbit hole of numbers and optimization. To still keep a similar number of character concepts available, I allow Multiclassing with Sidekick classes.
    Works out great.
    What are Sidekick classes?

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    I generally don't. Unless the player can give me a reason why and a way how. Like during a six month downtime. Not just a long rest and a level up.

    Why do you allow it? Strictly for optimization? Or what?

    And please hold off, you beautiful die hard remainder AL DMs. We know your situation.
    Technically, I allow it. None of my players have ever wanted to do it, so in practice it's never happened at my table.

    I'm not a fan of it. I feel like it can get overly complicated, and many times you can get the same concept out of a subclass somewhere. I'd actually rather work with you to homebrew a new class entirely that encompasses your concept than go the mulitclass route. However, if you insisted and I couldn't convince you that you could get the same thing with another subclass, I'd allow it. I'd be strict on the ability score requirements, and I'd need you to really define your concept to justify the multiclassing. Probably even map out all 20 class levels ahead of time and hold you to them.

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    As a New DM (about 10 sessions) I'm still wrapping my head around running the game enjoyably for my Players (Teens) and myself. I've come to the realization that I would run this current game to level 10 max. I tend to stick with the rules religiously and everything Variant is left alone. Simple Fast D&D. Less Struggling with Rules and more making my Players feel heroic.
    With No multiclass or Feats my Players are very powerful at 4th level trivializing many of my best laid plans. That being said, I'm going to open up Multiclassing organically if the story unfurls that way. I may use multiclassing as an accidental manifestation of a curse or something that makes sense in the story. I already have a GOO patron, Secret Lycantropy and Drow Bounty Hunters from an Arcane Lab pursuing the Party. Perhaps i can add feats like this as well. I'm more into making my campaign tell a great story than optimal choices.
    Currently playing "Names" Fretwield Lorebard

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    I allow it, though many have not considered it

    Personally as a player I would never. Most of the subclassrs fill the role of multiclassing to an extent. But hey, not my characters. I'd hope they can give me a neat story too.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    Snip
    And please hold off, you beautiful die hard remainder AL DMs. We know your situation.
    Oooh, you noticed/mentioned us! TBH, if/when I create my own world I would still allow it. Few classes or subclasses are so weak (perhaps Beast Master to some DMs) that you donít give up something when you choose multi-classing. And I do MC 90+% of the time. TINSTAAFL.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    The majority of folks posting here appear to be quite open to multiclassing (myself included). So I am kind of curious about the folks who don't allow for multiclassing and why they would be opposed to it.
    Iím not opposed to it. I just prefer the game without it. Itís a matter of taste. I donít like Dragonborn, Tieflings, Gnomes, nor monstrous races, either.

    Iím not interested in controlling people, either. If Iím DMing, those are (usually) the rules. If I decide to allow it - thatís my prerogative. If someone else DMs, I respect their rules.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Seattle area
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Of course I allow it. There is zero reason to shut down that type of fun. It isn't abusive, it doesn't interfere with other players fun and it can provide for a lot of rp potential.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    It depends.
    I will always allow "balanced multiclassing", so if the player plan to take at least a third of its level in each class, then no problems.
    I'm reluctant to just "pick the first few levels of a class and then never come back". But I'm open to change my mind on a case-by-case basis.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Udine, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    I allow it in my games, but the players must explain me why the character wants to "gain" another class. Usually I set up a two/three session quest where the character faces the difficulties of this change, and as reward at the end of the quest he gains the class.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: DMs only: Do you allow multiclassing? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    What are Sidekick classes?
    Sidekick classes were an unearthed arcana. Basically a way to have leveling npc companions.

    https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/d..._Sidekicks.pdf

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