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Thread: KPR comparisons

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default KPR comparisons

    I'm looking for a compilation of KPR, or submissions of builds and their KPR. I'm specifically interested in the KPR of high level martials in comparison to high level casters and high level martial/caster multiclasses.

    KPR is kills per round. You compare your DPR to the AC and HP of a level appropriate enemy. Linked sources can use their own calculations, but if you'd like to submit anything I suggest keeping to a standard of a creature of CR equal to the build based on the DMG creating a monster suggestions. So a level 20 build goes to the chart and looks for the suggested AC and HP of a CR 20 creature.

    KPR = (DPR*(1-.05(Enemy AC - Hit Bonus -1)))/Enemy HP

    So if I have a DPR of 45 with a +10 to hit against an enemy of AC 17 and 150 HP my KPR is (45*(1-(.05*(17-10-1)))/150 or .21
    Meaning I take out (on average) 21% of an enemies HP per round.

    Note: This is not an actual build, I'm just using random numbers to give an example. I'll be posting my own build or two when I have them completed.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    That KPR formula is incorrect, since it does not account for factors such as crit chance (which makes a huge difference for certain builds).

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    When you say "level-appropriate enemies", are you going by Xanathar's tables or DMG tables or what? For four level 12 PCs, a CR 13 Beholder is a Medium fight, but so are 4 CR 3 Yetis and 10 CR 1/2 Hobgoblins. The Yetis + Hobgoblins will result in more KPR since they are sixteen of them, but also a higher probability of TPK because they are actually tougher in most ways and more mobile and have a higher DPR against moderate AC.

    Also, KPR is a worse metric than HP loss ratios.
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Boy, there's just so many variables. Particularly when dealing with high level spell casters things get extremely noodly.

    Are we talking about spellcasters that just use all of their slots as quickly as they can to nova, or are we talking about KPR over 3 rounds, or are we talking about KPR over 6 3-round combats with 2 short rests? How many enemies are we fighting at once? If for instance the Wizard gets the opportunity to hit two different targets with Meteor Swarm in one turn his KPR doubles. On that subject how are we treating enemy resistances? What about Legendary Resistance?

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    That KPR formula is incorrect, since it does not account for factors such as crit chance (which makes a huge difference for certain builds).
    It is correct. Crit chance should be factored into your average DPR, not something you only account for in KPR.

    You are much better with the math then I am though, so if you'd like to help out and give a full formula for DPR as well I'd be glad to edit a DPR formula into the original post as well.

    I'm not 100% sure I know how to calculate things like increased crit chance and GWF dice re-rolls to be willing to put a formula out for others to judge. :P

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    A creature of CR X is a Medium encounter of 4 adventurers of lvl X, which means it's estimated to be able survive around three rounds against 4 PCs most of the time. So using said CR X creature for a PC of lvl X is not going to help much.

    Also, over how many encounters is the KPR supposed to be calculated? A Nova build might do a lot of damage... by spending a lot of ressources in one fight and then running empty, while something like a pure Champion Fighter would certainly be able to deliver the hurt for longer successions of encounters.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Crit chance should be factored into your average DPR, not something you only account for in KPR.
    Yes, factors such as AC, crit chance, and hit chance should be factored into your average DPR.

    However, in your formula you appear to be accounting for enemy AC and to-hit bonus separately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    KPR = (DPR*(1-.05(Enemy AC - Hit Bonus -1)))/Enemy HP



    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    You are much better with the math then I am though, so if you'd like to help out and give a full formula for DPR as well I'd be glad to edit a DPR formula into the original post as well.

    I'm not 100% sure I know how to calculate things like increased crit chance and GWF dice re-rolls to be willing to put a formula out for others to judge. :P
    This should include formulas for all that stuff: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.5qcgsqvtvf8v

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Yeah, you can't really get an accurate DPR number that factors in crit chance, and then multiply that number by your hit rate, because it'll give you inaccurate results due to math reasons. Weak explanation, but, it's late here.

    Just use LudicSavant's DPR calculator in his signature, I'm pretty sure it's got everything you want.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    When you say "level-appropriate enemies", are you going by Xanathar's tables or DMG tables or what? For four level 12 PCs, a CR 13 Beholder is a Medium fight, but so are 4 CR 3 Yetis and 10 CR 1/2 Hobgoblins. The Yetis + Hobgoblins will result in more KPR since they are sixteen of them, but also a higher probability of TPK because they are actually tougher in most ways and more mobile and have a higher DPR against moderate AC.

    Also, KPR is a worse metric than HP loss ratios.
    KPR is often calculated against a single target. But for casters you can give AoE effects based on the DMGs 'suggested enemies affected' for Theater of Mind combat. Just make a note that it's an AoE KPR and if desired also lost a single target. I don't have the book in front of me but it's based on shape and size of the affect.

    As for appropriate CR, that's why I made my own definition. It may not be the best but equal to level. A level 12 build compares to a CR 12 Creature.

    Also I don't even know what HP loss ratio is, but KPR is what I'm looking for. Feel free to explain HP loss ratio if you'd like though, I enjoy learning new things! Haha

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Yes, factors such as AC, crit chance, and hit chance should be factored into your average DPR.

    However, in your formula you appear to be accounting for enemy AC and to-hit bonus separately.







    This should include formulas for all that stuff: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.5qcgsqvtvf8v
    See I told you you were better at the maths lol

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Another problem with converting DPR to KPR is overkill. A character with three attacks might be able to kill three weak enemies in a round, but a character with one strong attack can only kill one, even if that one attack does as much damage as the three combined.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Another problem with converting DPR to KPR is overkill. A character with three attacks might be able to kill three weak enemies in a round, but a character with one strong attack can only kill one, even if that one attack does as much damage as the three combined.
    Quite true. I don't think Rogues would face well on any KPR challenge, for example.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Also I don't even know what HP loss ratio is, but KPR is what I'm looking for. Feel free to explain HP loss ratio if you'd like though, I enjoy learning new things! Haha
    HP loss ratio is

    DPR / enemy's DPR

    If I can cut my enemy's DPR in half by reducing my own DPR by only 20%, e.g. by casting Blur instead of Divine Favor, I'm coming out ahead, and I'll be able to complete more encounters per day.

    Generally the highest-DPR enemies are going to be the low-CR swarms: one CR 9 Nycaloth (5000 adjusted XP) has 123 HP and attacks at +9 for 36 HP of damage per round, but 50 kobolds (also 5000 adjusted XP) have 250 HP and attack at +4 plus advantage for 225 HP of damage per round. So if you base your calculations purely on the assumption that you'll be fighting high-CR enemies, you'll overestimate your chances against low-CR enemies that will stomp you into oblivion. E.g. a Divine Smite paladin would do well against the Nycaloth, maybe could even solo it, but the kobolds would annihilate him.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    HP loss ratio is

    DPR / enemy's DPR

    If I can cut my enemy's DPR in half by reducing my own DPR by only 20%, e.g. by casting Blur instead of Divine Favor, I'm coming out ahead, and I'll be able to complete more encounters per day.

    Generally the highest-DPR enemies are going to be the low-CR swarms: one CR 9 Nycaloth (5000 adjusted XP) has 123 HP and attacks at +9 for 36 HP of damage per round, but 50 kobolds (also 5000 adjusted XP) have 250 HP and attack at +4 plus advantage for 225 HP of damage per round. So if you base your calculations purely on the assumption that you'll be fighting high-CR enemies, you'll overestimate your chances against low-CR enemies that will stomp you into oblivion. E.g. a Divine Smite paladin would do well against the Nycaloth, maybe could even solo it, but the kobolds would annihilate him.
    To be fair the freindly neighborhood (horribly optimized) blaster can just blow everything and nuke either option into space in one round because tier 2 blasters are thilly.

    --------------

    In terms of a previous post claiming rouges are a bit screwered here that's really not an issue with theives/AT's. This kicks in early for AT with magic items but functions for both smoothly in tier 3.(Orzhova AT is a thing I still need to do a writeup on for the eclectic build thread).

    That said class dpr is a thing I tend to not take seriously at all. Wand of magic missile exists.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-05-16 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    On the other hand, a spellcaster with area-effect spells might be able to wipe out all 50 of the kobolds in a single round.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    To be fair the freindly neighborhood (horribly optimized) blaster can just blow everything and nuke either option into space in one round because tier 2 blasters are thilly.
    To be fair, that's only because (and only if) kobolds are stupid. If they spread out throughout a middle-sized cavern, using pack tactics to negate disadvantage from long range, they do less damage but the blaster will have a much tougher time killing more than a few at a time. In loss ratio terms :) assuming Fireball Formation is obviously a terrible strategy for them, and they will only do it if the DM wants them to use a terrible strategy so the blaster can feel awesome.

    A middle-of-the-road approach would be for the DM to put 25 of them in a big clump that the blaster can feel awesome about nuking, and scatter the other 25 around the battlefield to get revenge after the nuke goes down.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    To be fair the freindly neighborhood (horribly optimized) blaster can just blow everything and nuke either option into space in one round because tier 2 blasters are thilly.

    The best blast spell in the game does on average 120 points of damages. That's not enough to one-shot the Nycaloth, and that's using their highest spell slot.

    Blasters are great against large groups of weak enemies, but they're certainly not going to be the DPS-masters against one singular opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    In terms of a previous post claiming rouges are a bit screwered here that's really not an issue with theives/AT's. This kicks in early for AT with magic items but functions for both smoothly in tier 3.(Orzhova AT is a thing I still need to do a writeup on for the eclectic build thread).
    Not sure what you mean by that? Rogues do good damages, but I know few builts that'd allow them to kill the most mooks in a many vs few fight, compared to other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    To be fair, that's only because (and only if) kobolds are stupid. If they spread out throughout a middle-sized cavern, using pack tactics to negate disadvantage from long range, they do less damage but the blaster will have a much tougher time killing more than a few at a time. In loss ratio terms :) assuming Fireball Formation is obviously a terrible strategy for them, and they will only do it if the DM wants them to use a terrible strategy so the blaster can feel awesome.

    A middle-of-the-road approach would be for the DM to put 25 of them in a big clump that the blaster can feel awesome about nuking, and scatter the other 25 around the battlefield to get revenge after the nuke goes down.
    A fair point as well.

    Thing is simply comparing combat numbers, be it DPK or others, usually go either of two ways: they're tactic-agnostic and only the numbers are compared even if it means those numbers are only relevant if the characters on both side just stand there at a given range and try to damage each other mindlessly regardless of intellect or temperament, or they assume that the one tactic used works at 100% and always.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2019-05-16 at 10:40 AM.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    The best blast spell in the game does on average 120 points of damages. That's not enough to one-shot the Nycaloth, and that's using their highest spell slot.

    Blasters are great against large groups of weak enemies, but they're certainly not going to be the DPS-masters against one singular opponent.



    Not sure what you mean by that? Rogues do good damages, but I know few builts that'd allow them to kill the most mooks in a many vs few fight, compared to other classes.
    Optimized Sray cast at 5th level will hit 123 in a round under hexcurse+hex on a highish roll (this has become my default blasters do ok damage example, sorry). With empowered and a wand of the war mage + advantage from flyby this isn't an unlikely roll.

    Theif picks up a magic stave or wand of fireballs with UMD? AT jacks silly things like spirit guardians with a rav background and dashes. Either one can rip through anklebiters real quick. Same dealy gets us haste + BB.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-05-16 at 10:52 AM.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    The metric is flawed. The name is flawed. The concept is interesting.

    I propose a metric that is a ratio of damage done to hit points of build. Sorta like bench pressing your weight.

    A build with 30 HP doing 20 DPR has a ratio of 2/3 for a basis of comparison. This allows comparison to monsters as well as builds.

    The name? I leave that to the OP.
    Last edited by Kurt Kurageous; 2019-05-16 at 10:48 AM.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Thing is simply comparing combat numbers, be it DPK or others, usually go either of two ways: they're tactic-agnostic and only the numbers are compared even if it means those numbers are only relevant if the characters on both side just stand there at a given range and try to damage each other mindlessly regardless of intellect or temperament, or they assume that the one tactic used works at 100% and always.
    Sophisticated analysis is hard, but it wouldn't be too much to ask for a 50/50 mix: assume half the fights are a best-case scenario for a given build, and the other half the fights are a worst-case scenario (or something close to it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    Optimized Sray cast at 5th level will hit 123 in a round under hexcurse+hex on a high roll (this has become my default blasters do ok damage example, sorry)
    Unfortunately, Nycaloths have AC 18 and are resistant to fire damage. Even with +9 to hit and Hex, you're looking at avg 7.att 18 9 3d6/2+d6 = 38.76 DPR against the Nycaloth with that combo, not 123. (If the Nycaloth has pre-cast Darkness to give you disadvantage, you're looking at only 21.57 DPR.)
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-16 at 10:50 AM.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Sophisticated analysis is hard, but it wouldn't be too much to ask for a 50/50 mix: assume half the fights are a best-case scenario for a given build, and the other half the fights are a worst-case scenario (or something close to it).



    Unfortunately, Nycaloths have AC 18 and are resistant to fire damage. Even with +9 to hit and Hex, you're looking at avg 7.att 18 9 3d6/2+d6 = 38.76 DPR against the Nycaloth with that combo, not 123. (If the Nycaloth has pre-cast Darkness to give you disadvantage, you're looking at only 21.57 DPR.)
    Elemental adept is a thing we take when using fire?

    We're implying warlock levels. Who have an infamous invocation at second level. Something something see in darkness.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-05-16 at 10:58 AM.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    I'm not entirely sure why KPR has to be a thing that's separate from DPR.

    The only variable that'd change between characters is DPR. More than likely, someone's hit chance isn't going to differ from one character to another, as Proficiency is the same for everyone per level, and their relevant modifiers are only going to differ by about 1-2 points.

    You're effectively asking for the highest DPR builds, then modifying the DPR by -5% to +5% based on how high their primary stat is.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Other things that would have to be taken into account would also be the character's survivability (especially if they don't win the initiative) and ressource management.

    Being the best at killing things fast doesn't help if the build you're compared with kills half as fast as you do but can stay on the battlefield three times longer than you.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    Elemental adept is a thing we take when using fire?

    We're implying warlock levels. Who have an infamous invocation at second level. Something something see in darkness.
    ...I see. You've got a Hexblade warlock who for some reason took Elemental Adept (fire) and Devil's Sight, even though he's planning on using his concentration on Hex instead. Let's suppose that you rolled an 18 Cha so you can still get +9 to hit as before. Congratulations, you can do 80.50 damage in the second round against the Nycaloth.

    I'm underwhelmed. That's a lot of investment build and time investment for a middling return. Even odds someone else in the party will have already dealt with it by then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Other things that would have to be taken into account would also be the character's survivability (especially if they don't win the initiative) and ressource management.

    Being the best at killing things fast doesn't help if the build you're compared with kills half as fast as you do but can stay on the battlefield three times longer than you.
    That's why HP loss ratios are more interesting than DPR, and why e.g. Careful Web is often a better spell than Haste.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-16 at 11:23 AM.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    ...I see. You've got a Hexblade warlock who for some reason took Elemental Adept (fire) and Devil's Sight, even though he's planning on using his concentration on Hex instead. Let's suppose that you rolled an 18 Cha so you can still get +9 to hit as before. Congratulations, you can do 80.50 damage in the second round against the Nycaloth.

    I'm underwhelmed. That's a lot of investment build and time investment for a middling return. Even odds someone else in the party will have already dealt with it.
    Since that's pretty much GWM+PAM+Action surge damage off of a BM using presicion attack I'm not sure why this isn't qualified as "yeah ok, that's pretty decent" damage.

    Was assuming sorlock built for blasting tbh pure lock isn't getting Sray unless fiend.. Since that's sorta their thing. So if we slap empower + adept rerolls + Critrange on that... It's an extreme example but yeah we "can" roast it R2 in a white room.

    A more realistic scenario in a fight worth burning this much gas on is hexcurse+ fireball R1 to clear flack, SRay R2 to blick big bad. Again though, this is a silly whiteroom damage D measuring contest.

    (We're only ever taking 2-3 blast spells all game long even on a dedicated blaster. The only good to-hit is s fire fsr)

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    Since that's pretty much GWM+PAM+Action surge damage off of a BM using presicion attack I'm not sure why this isn't qualified as "yeah ok, that's pretty decent" damage.
    Because it takes two rounds to pull off and costs two 5th level spell slots (Hex and Scorching Ray) and a feat (Elemental Adept) and your limited-use, close-range Hexblade's Curse. As I said, even odds someone else in the party will have already dealt with the Nycaloth by then. For example, if there's a melee Enchanter (e.g. Forge 1/Enchanter 2+), he's got better than 60% chance of locking it up with his at-will Hypnotic Gaze on the first round, at which point it's solved: you can grapple it and toss on a Net and maybe some manacles for restraining and have everybody Ready attacks to go off as soon as the Enchanter moves away from it; and if it survives that the Enchanter still has his action for e.g. Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter. Beating a CR 9 creature with an at-will feature on round 1 plus maybe a 1st level spell on round 2 is better than beating it with all of your spell slots and a feat and a short-rest feature on round 2.

    (This works particularly well if there's a Shepherd Druid in the party with a swarm of conjured animals. 8 Giant Poisonous Snakes or Dimetrodons attacking the Nycaloth at advantage for it being restrained is a lot of damage.)
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-16 at 12:07 PM.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Because it takes two rounds to pull off and costs two 5th level spell slots (Hex and Scorching Ray) and a feat (Elemental Adept) and your limited-use, close-range Hexblade's Curse. As I said, even odds someone else in the party will have already dealt with the Nycaloth by then. For example, if there's a melee Enchanter (e.g. Forge 1/Enchanter 2+), he's got better than 60% chance of locking it up with his at-will Hypnotic Gaze on the first round, at which point it's solved: you can grapple it and toss on a Net and maybe some manacles for restraining and have everybody Ready attacks to go off as soon as the Enchanter moves away from it; and if it survives that the Enchanter still has his action for e.g. Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter. Beating a CR 9 creature with an at-will feature on round 1 is better than beating it with all of your spell slots and a feat and a short-rest feature on round 2.
    ...

    I am confused by this.

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    I am confused by this.
    What is unclear?

    I'm giving an example of how I see beefy mid-CR creatures like Nycaloths and young dragons quickly and cheaply dealt with at the table, if they engage in straightforward melee, to explain why I'm unimpressed by an round 2, 80-HP damage nova, as an aside from discussing why KPR isn't a very interesting metric compared to loss ratios.

    Does everyone use tactics like these? Nope. Some people just hit it with an axe, or blast it with a spell, or cast Grasping Vine on it, and the Nycaloth will do much better against those players. Your Scorching Ray nova is far from the worst strategy I've seen, but it doesn't come close to fulfilling the promise that "To be fair the freindly neighborhood (horribly optimized) blaster can just blow everything and nuke either option into space in one round because tier 2 blasters are thilly." It can't nuke either option into space in one round, kobolds or Nycaloth.

    BTW if you're now assuming a Sorlock with 2 Warlock levels, and 5th level spell slots, you're talking at least a Warlock 2/Sorc 9+, which means you're no longer talking about Tier 2 blasters anyway.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-16 at 12:16 PM.
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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Okay, first off this thread was made because I was looking for KPR comparisons so I appreciate no one responding on topic. :P

    Second KPR is a metric that can show how well a build can do at different levels. It shows the comparison of damage to an enemy death and this changes as you level. Builds with increasing DPR change at a different rate than their KPR changes.

    HP loss ratio sounds like an even less useful metric. It shows only if I deal more damage, but doesn't show anything valuable, like if I live long enough. If I deal twice as much damage as the enemy, but he has three times as much health as me HP loss ratio only tells me I deal more damage. KPR simply tells me, on average, how long it will take me to kill him.

    It's not supposed to be a perfect metric that does everything and gives a perfect snapshot of a build. It does what it's meant to do slightly better then just DPR because it lets me know the average time it takes me to kill the kinds of things the DMG expects me to fight. No it's not perfect and everything goes out the window as soon as you leave the white room.
    Last edited by Galithar; 2019-05-16 at 01:35 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: KPR comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Okay, first off this thread was made because I was looking for KPR comparisons so I appreciate no one responding on topic. :P

    Second KPR is a metric that can show how well a build can do at different levels. It shows the comparison of damage to an enemy death and this changes as you level. Builds with increasing DPR change at a different rate than their KPR changes.

    HP loss ratio sounds like an even less useful metric. It shows only if I deal more damage, but doesn't show anything valuable, like if I live long enough. If I deal twice as much damage as the enemy, but he has three times as much health as me HP loss ratio only tells me I deal more damage. KPR simply tells me, on average, how long it will take me to kill him.

    It's not supposed to be a perfect metric that does everything and gives a perfect snapshot of a build. It does what it's meant to do slightly better then just DPR because it lets me know the average time it takes me to kill the kinds of things the DMG expects me to fight. No it's not perfect and everything goes out the window as soon as you leave the white room.
    A question, then. What is the difference between gathering high DPR builds vs gathering high KPR builds?
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    5th Edition Homebrewery

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