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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    I didn't realize this soon enough but I love warlocks there is so much variance within the class

    Currently I am Divine Soul Sorc 3 / Hexblade Lock 2. In retrospect I think Fey is better than Hexblade, but I digress.

    For level 6 I have been having an internal debate.

    1. How much warlock do I want? Part of me wants to go to 5, it will give me level 3 spells and 3 invocations. I would be stuck at 3rd level spells till level 10 (Sorc 5/Lock 5) and of course will never get 8th or 9th level spells, but I don't think I will ever be high enough level for those anyway

    2. Based on the how many levels of lock it affects my invocation choices. I like repelling blast for control. 3 out of the 5 members are ranged, so being able to push enemies away would be helpful. However voice of the chain master has some coolness factor, ability to explore further away, deliver messages, use Imp's Devil Sight for Darkness/advantage...I just don't know if that's enough. Repelling Blast could potentially be used every combat to create space between people that need range, relieve the tank from getting attacked by everyone

    I also considered Tome, but as a Sorlock I already have a lot of cantrips. The utility of the rituals is definitely nice, but the creative aspect of having a familiar sounds better.

    Anyway, I would appreciate your input.
    Last edited by Orc_Lord; 2019-05-17 at 09:42 AM.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Any thoughts?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    What is your current spell selection looking like
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orc_Lord View Post
    Any thoughts?
    Have you considered your patron and their goals? What kind of patron would gift you as you have chosen to be gifted? What do they expect you to do with these gifts?

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    What is your current spell selection looking like
    Cantrips: Lock - Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Sorc - Toll of the Dead, Guidance, Shocking Grasp, Minor Illusion
    1st: Lock - Hex, Shield, Sorc - Bless, Healing Word, Cure Wounds
    2nd: Lock - Darkness, Suggestion, Sorc - Blindness/Deafness, Aid

    The Lock spells are with the assumption that Tome is not selected as invocation and I have the Imp with the Voice of the Chain Master invocation. Otherwise I probably will change Darkness out for something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    Have you considered your patron and their goals? What kind of patron would gift you as you have chosen to be gifted? What do they expect you to do with these gifts?
    My DM has actually never revealed who my patron is, so I don't know. The characters backstory is interesting to me. Rich kid decided that his parents were oppressing him, so he left and went to the big city only to be swindled and hustled out of all of his money. This left him penniless and with an entitled attitude to boot.

    This lead to him becoming a hustler himself, since all people suck and they deserved it. Then war came and the city was destroyed. The defending army essentially conscripted everyone in the army. He faked his paperwork (charlatan background) and presented fake orders that he was a Sergeant (how hard could it be right?)

    Then he met the PCs, tools for him to use and not suffer. Time passed, the group started looking up to him for guidance, initially it was my PC feeling that he didn't want to mess with his team, they all had a common goal to not die, but he inadvertently started caring for them.

    It has been interesting seeing his spell selections change from purely egotistical ones to more party oriented ones like bless instead of bane. Getting Aid spell etc.

    Out of character I like the idea of internal struggle and having ones perception of the world being challenged. If I go with an Imp, I want it to be a Fey type. So a more playful version of what people initially would expect. I like the antithesis.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Personally I think 3 lock/ rest sorcerer is the best break point. With 2 2nd lv slots fueling your metamagic extended aid can be constantly up.
    Look into Lance of lethargy in xans to double down on keeping foes away.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Personally I think 3 lock/ rest sorcerer is the best break point. With 2 2nd lv slots fueling your metamagic extended aid can be constantly up.
    Look into Lance of lethargy in xans to double down on keeping foes away.
    Oof, extended aid? That's 16 hours isn't? That's a very long work day for any team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Eh, there was a group re-arrangement. We lost our Cleric, so now it's just martials. This kind of puts Tome back on the table for the rituals.

    Or Chain with repelling to prevent damage to minimize healing.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orc_Lord View Post
    Eh, there was a group re-arrangement. We lost our Cleric, so now it's just martials. This kind of puts Tome back on the table for the rituals.

    Or Chain with repelling to prevent damage to minimize healing.
    I would stop at 2 levels of Warlock until you have reached 5 levels of Divine Soul. A 2/18 build is very good. A 3/17 build is only better if you get frequent short rests. I would not go more than 3 levels of Warlock at all.

    Since you think the improved Chain familiar is creative, I would go Chain pact instead of Tome especially if your party could benefit from a tiny flying invisible scout.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Oof, extended aid? That's 16 hours isn't? That's a very long work day for any team.
    Never know lol. Extend is cheap and you can potentially roll it into the next day as well at 16 hours if you cast right before long rest.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    I played a Sorlock from 1 to 17, Voice of the Chain master is awesome.

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    I played a Sorlock from 1 to 17, Voice of the Chain master is awesome.
    How did your leveling look like. How much in Lock and how much in Sorc

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orc_Lord View Post
    How did your leveling look like. How much in Lock and how much in Sorc
    IIRC

    Lock1 -> Sorc 1 -> L3 -> S5 -> L7 -> S7 -> L9 -> S8

    Not optimized in the least, I was an Air Genasi Merchant Storm Sorc, GOOLock, I got the familiar relatively early and Voice of the chain master allowed me to do lots of things

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fryy View Post
    I would stop at 2 levels of Warlock until you have reached 5 levels of Divine Soul. A 2/18 build is very good. A 3/17 build is only better if you get frequent short rests. I would not go more than 3 levels of Warlock at all.
    Because of the delayed spell progression?

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orc_Lord View Post
    However voice of the chain master has some coolness factor, ability to explore further away, deliver messages, use Imp's Devil Sight for Darkness/advantage...I just don't know if that's enough.
    Not to derail, but I think you have a common misconception about this.

    Yes, the imp can use its Devil Sight to see through even magical darkness. However:
    • Most likely, no one else in the party can so THEY would have disadvantage because they can't see the target inside the Darkness spell.
    • Seeing through your familiar's senses takes A WHOLE ACTION. Meaning you can't target your big spells using ImpVision(tm), just things that are bonus actions. And viewing one round and targeting the next would still impose disadvantage as you can no longer see the target and they could have moved in the Darkness sphere.


    It's one of those traps that people seem to get caught up in.

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Never know lol. Extend is cheap and you can potentially roll it into the next day as well at 16 hours if you cast right before long rest.
    This is quite an interesting point. I'll have to try it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfunkr View Post
    Not to derail, but I think you have a common misconception about this.

    Yes, the imp can use its Devil Sight to see through even magical darkness. However:
    • Most likely, no one else in the party can so THEY would have disadvantage because they can't see the target inside the Darkness spell.
    • Seeing through your familiar's senses takes A WHOLE ACTION. Meaning you can't target your big spells using ImpVision(tm), just things that are bonus actions. And viewing one round and targeting the next would still impose disadvantage as you can no longer see the target and they could have moved in the Darkness sphere.


    It's one of those traps that people seem to get caught up in.
    Actually, no, its one of those traps that doesn't actually exist according to the rules unless the DM says it does. So I would say ask your DM. In AL for example, darkness has very little impact at all.

    WHY?

    If you look at the vision rules. If you can't see your target then you get disadvantage to attack them. So, if someone casts Darkness and you can't see your target many people conclude you have disadvantage. However, if you read the rest of the vision rules, it also says that if your target can not see you then you have advantage on the attack roll. Thus, if someone casts Darkness and you can't see your target AND your target can't see you then you have both Advantage and Disadvantage which cancel resulting in a straight to hit roll vs your target which is usually more or less the same as if the Darkness did not exist.

    In general, casting Darkness has very limited impact on the performance of your party members when everyone's vision is obstructed. Except when one of the characters is a warlock with devils sight, then they get advantage to attack and creatures that can't see through the Darkness get disadvantage to attack the warlock while most of the rest of the attacks are unaffected. The cases that Darkness does negate are barbarian Reckless Attack, Advantage vs prone targets, disadvantage using a ranged weapon with an opponent adjacent and casting spells that require the caster to be able to see the target.

    On the topic of using your familiar's senses, you are correct, it takes an action to use your familiar's senses and you can't then use your action for other activities like spell casting or attacking.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    In general, casting Darkness has very limited impact on the performance of your party members when everyone's vision is obstructed.
    Yes, that's how my table does it too. Only problem I have with it is that it feels too meta. From the point of view of my character would he rob everyone else's ability to fight as well so he can fight better? So I use it situationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    On the topic of using your familiar's senses, you are correct, it takes an action to use your familiar's senses and you can't then use your action for other activities like spell casting or attacking.
    This is true, but if you get the Voice of the Chain Master it no longer works that way. The familiar's senses are shared. The important question is does the DM feel that sharing senses allow you to use the Imp's senses to fire off a spell? So if my PC does not have devil sight and uses the imp's devil sight to see through the darkness, can he cast eldritch blast with advantage or not?

    My DM has ruled that he can, so there is that.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orc_Lord View Post
    Yes, that's how my table does it too. Only problem I have with it is that it feels too meta. From the point of view of my character would he rob everyone else's ability to fight as well so he can fight better? So I use it situationally.



    This is true, but if you get the Voice of the Chain Master it no longer works that way. The familiar's senses are shared. The important question is does the DM feel that sharing senses allow you to use the Imp's senses to fire off a spell? So if my PC does not have devil sight and uses the imp's devil sight to see through the darkness, can he cast eldritch blast with advantage or not?

    My DM has ruled that he can, so there is that.
    Ah! I've interpreted Voice of the Chain Master to be removing the range constraints of the Find Familiar spell (no longer have to be within 100' to see through its senses) not removing the action required to see through the familiar's senses or the fact that you lose access to your senses when doing so. However after re-reading it I can see how it can be interpreted more broadly.

    "VOICE OF THE CHAIN MASTER
    Prerequisite: Pact of the Chain feature
    You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally. while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech."

    "FIND FAMILIAR
    While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses."

    Your interpretation of Voice of the Chain Master is far better. You can communicate with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses wherever it may be without requiring an action and presumably you do not lose access to your own senses while also using your familiar's?

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Sorlock - How much Lock | Voice of the Chain Master or not...

    Unfortunately, I don't think that's a good interpretation of the Pact of the Chain Master invocation. (Of course, in a given game, the DM word is the correct interpretation for that game ...) The basic principle of exception-based game design is that the general rule holds except where specifically overridden by the specific rule; and the specific rule of the invocation only mentions overriding the range limit of the general rule. So the assumption would be that the other limits of the normal rule (action required, unable to use own senses) are still in place.

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