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Thread: Batwoman

  1. - Top - End - #31

    Default Re: Batwoman

    I really hope this show also goes all in on Montoya, for she is awesomeness in all her identities.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Because when a superhero swoops in and saves the day, everyone credits the one who made that guy's suit.
    The way I see it, it's not the maker of the suit, it's the suit itself.
    When you base your own suit to look like a known icon, especially if your fighting style is to strike using the cover of darkness, you shouldn't be surprised if you're confused with what you tried to imitate.

    If she would say something like "I don't want batman to take credit for MY work", it could be interpreted as some internal conflict of both wanting to be like batman but also something else, or maybe just as a desire to be recognized and hidden at the same time, both would be fine.
    But when it's "take credit for a woman's work", I feel the CW sledgehammer will hit the show.

    And that's basically my problem.
    A show about batwoman can be good, I just don't trust CW to do it without constantly repeating the same mistakes from the other shows.

    BTW, how old is she supposed to be?

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Batwoman

    Quote Originally Posted by Cen View Post
    Speaking in memes:

    Child: look it's batman!
    Batwoman: it's MA'AM!!!!

    also: looks pretty meh, rather'd watch Sonic.

    also also: that's not Barbara Gordon, right?

    Yes, that was my thoughts lol
    No, Barbara is Batgirl different hero.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Given how long Gotham ran as one of the higher rated shows on FOX, I don't see how you can claim that wasn't what people wanted. Ditto Arrow's run as a Batman show with no Batman.

    Maybe it's just that some people like different things than other people, and the networks want their attention as well.
    Was it really? I don't claim to know marketing data or anything, but my anecdotal experience is that I literally don't know a single person who watched that show. Obviously some people were watching it for it to get so many seasons, but I never had the idea that it was actually popular.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I can see your point...but the thing is, I don't see this as a risk at all. This looks very, very safe.
    I think this is my penultimate opinion of the show until I get to see it in full. I lost count of the cliches I saw throughout, from the Sassy White Female lead throwing people around with pretty bad wire-work, the dorky/socially inept tech-support sidekick, the turbulent father/daughter relationship, the horribly dated contemporary clothes and haircuts...

    If I hadn't already seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Dark Angel, and Jessica Jones, and Witchblade, and Wynonna Earp, and Veronica Mars, then I might find this far more unique and appealing. As it stands I'm pretty 'over' the concept, and if all they're trading on is "Batman, but lesbian" then it's likely going to compare poorly with some of the genuinely good superhero shows, like Daredevil.

    Which is a shame. I remember Katherine Kane when she debut'd in the comics, and she was a strong counterpoint to Batman - he was cold and analytical, whereas she was more hot-headed and prone to impulsive action so the two bounced off each other in a nice way. If they water that down for the TV show, or just have her be impulsive/aggressive without a strong counter, or - even worse - they just make her "Batman, but Female", then they're going to lose a lot of points from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    So yes, if the trailer is to be believed, they do show that she can pull it off without the suit, but obviously the suit makes it easier, what with the armour and the gadgets. As it was for Batman.

    Grey Wolf
    While I agree with your interpretation of the build in the story, my conclusion is that I think they're relying a bit too much on the suit, or at least that they spent too much time focusing on it.

    Of course she got her butt kicked the first time she went out being a vigilante. Of course things improved when she put on the suit. But the implication I'm getting from the trailer is that ANY washed-out jerk can put on the suit and immediately be Batman. I hope that Katherine gets to be more than that, and not just with a throwaway line cribbed from Iron Man/Spider-Man about "if you're nothing without the suit then you're nothing with it", y'know?
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Would this work better if instead of her girlfriend those white rabbit goons try to kidnap her instead only to be fought off as either Tim or **** turns up in costume seeking her help?

    The idea instead of just assuming the gear she's actually trained and that bat suit is her original one rather than Batman's so there's implied background history that supports her being able to do that stuff.

    So we learn Bruce is missing and Tim & **** want her to cover for them whilst they go searching for him.

    Have Barbara Gordon in her Oracle identity function as an intermediary with Kate agreeing so she can get her help discovering who Red Alice is as her father is deliberately keeping her out of the investigation.

    She moves into Wayne Tower meeting Lucius Junior and has her suit modified in an effort to distinguish herself from Bruce.

    Given she had previously worked alongside the bat family as Batwoman it isn't as jarring to have her reappear and allows for cameos from characters as mentioned above are fan favourites (especially if Renee becomes the Question II).

    Odd I liked her appearance in the crossover the teaser feels very clumsy as if they've forgotten they can do better.

    What do you think, don't take the trailer too seriously they might remedy the flaw by the time the pilot airs or hope the Crisis comes first?

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    There will only ever be one Batwoman. All imitations need to END! EEEENNNND!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_nPp64OrBc
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
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  8. - Top - End - #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Was it really? I don't claim to know marketing data or anything, but my anecdotal experience is that I literally don't know a single person who watched that show. Obviously some people were watching it for it to get so many seasons, but I never had the idea that it was actually popular.
    There's a number of ratings aggregators out there in internetland. I tend to compare Cancel Bear and Spoiler TV to get a feel. Gotham had a .7 in the 18-34 this year (average is .6 {mean, mode and median}) and pulled an overall 2.54 where FOX averages a 2.98 (includes the football ratings), so not bad.

    CW is naturally much lower, since they don't reach a fair sized chunk of the country. Also, they stream more, and nobody outside the company gets to see those numbers.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Meh... Has all the signs of a mediocre-at-best production... The tired "dark & edgy" atmosphere is was one of the main problem with DC productions, including CW series. Arrow's darker seasons are widely considered to be the worst seasons of that show. And then there is the eye-roll-inducing "gurl powah" line... We've had female protagonists for years. There was a very successful and acclaimed Wonder Woman movie not even 3 years ago. It's about time producers stop pretending having a female lead is anything revolutionary or ground-breaking. It was dumb when they did it for Captain Marvel, it's still dumb when they do it for a TV Show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    But when it's "take credit for a woman's work", I feel the CW sledgehammer will hit the show.

    And that's basically my problem.
    A show about batwoman can be good, I just don't trust CW to do it without constantly repeating the same mistakes from the other shows.

    BTW, how old is she supposed to be?
    I find it an odd notion that Kate Kane shouldn’t be explicitly into “girl-power.” The character is literally about a woman replacing a man in a male-dominated space.

    Also, which other shows would they be repeating? Supergirl doesn’t go that route, the other arrowverse shows mostly introduce female heroines and villains with regularity without much comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    TIL it is misogyny to point out misandry.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I find it an odd notion that Kate Kane shouldn’t be explicitly into “girl-power.” The character is literally about a woman replacing a man in a male-dominated space.

    Also, which other shows would they be repeating? Supergirl doesn’t go that route, the other arrowverse shows mostly introduce female heroines and villains with regularity without much comment.
    I'm talking about general repeating mistakes in the arrowverse: Unnecessary use of "dark and edgy", keeping stupid secrets, any relationship is doomed to fail, and complete lack of subtlety when it comes to moral lessons.

    That last one especially is what worries me.
    It's not even against the "girl power" thing, I just look at the trailer, look at CW and their way of handling such things (like the entire "illegal aliens" arc in supergirl) and my reaction is along the lines of "we're going to have an entire season just of this crap, aren't we?"

    I hope I'm wrong.
    It's just that I have bad experience with CW shows that start different and end up in the same depressing way.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    About Gotham, and other comic book tv shows.... It's weird, around the people I know, no one seems to have watched the series (all of them) or generally don't like them. Not don't like them as in HATTTEEE. I mean it's more of an ambivalence.

    The reason why they take usually lesser known heroes, is because it's less of a risk of FANRAGE. If they do a "Major" hero such as Batman or Superman, they would have to worry about finding the "Right" actor to play the role.

    Anyway, about Batwomam. I find that I don't care as much as I thought I would. I don't know the character, and from what I do know, this seems like the niche character that I do know.

    I think they kind of wasted Ruby Rose. I think she could have made a decent Catwoman, and it would have been an interesting take on the character to see her take on the Batman duties of saving Gotham while he is away. I mean to me she has her own Identity and has a LONG history from which to draw.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    I'm talking about general repeating mistakes in the arrowverse: Unnecessary use of "dark and edgy", keeping stupid secrets, any relationship is doomed to fail, and complete lack of subtlety when it comes to moral lessons.

    That last one especially is what worries me.
    It's not even against the "girl power" thing, I just look at the trailer, look at CW and their way of handling such things (like the entire "illegal aliens" arc in supergirl) and my reaction is along the lines of "we're going to have an entire season just of this crap, aren't we?".
    Wait, you're expecting something other than this? Its the CW!


    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    I hope I'm wrong.
    It's just that I have bad experience with CW shows that start different and end up in the same depressing way
    I think Arrow when it started was dark and edgy is a refreshingly realistic way, with Oliver actually breaking the neck of the guy that kidnaps him and Arrow being a genuinely frightening figure (although he doesn't kill in Season One all that much actually). Not sure how many other shows started "different."

    What I'm seeing is that things tend to go approximately the way things are going in "The Flash." Things start out clever and refreshingly new, but get a lot campier and more reliant on the heroes playing idiot ball, followed by unnecessary relationship drama involving the heroes forgetting lessons they previously learned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    The reason why they take usually lesser known heroes, is because it's less of a risk of FANRAGE. If they do a "Major" hero such as Batman or Superman, they would have to worry about finding the "Right" actor to play the role.
    You attribute far too much power to internet trolls. They had no problems making Tyler Hoechlin Superman and squandering his appearance in what's basically an extended cameo in Season 2 Episode 1 of Supergirl. They didn't show Superman when it was on CBS because they didn't have the rights.

    In fact, the arrowverse producers and directors have repeatedly talked about why they can't bring certain characters or places into the Arrowverse. The WB won't let them because they are holding back on these characters. The crossover was the first time the arrowverse got to talk about Batman, and they spend the whole crossover talking about him as if to make up for the fact that they couldn't before.

    The reason they haven't made a new Superman or Batman show is because the WB thinks it would lower the demand for the next movie. Its one of the reasons "The Flash" movie was delayed, is they feel people won't see it because there's a hit TV show about him now (I don't quite understand the logic myself).

    If the arrowverse could use more A-list characters they would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Anyway, about Batwomam. I find that I don't care as much as I thought I would. I don't know the character, and from what I do know, this seems like the niche character that I do know.

    I think they kind of wasted Ruby Rose. I think she could have made a decent Catwoman, and it would have been an interesting take on the character to see her take on the Batman duties of saving Gotham while he is away. I mean to me she has her own Identity and has a LONG history from which to draw.
    Catwoman isn't generally the sort of hero character that Gotham defends on as a Batman replacement. That's too much of a character shift. The last time they tried to make a heroic Catwoman I recall it bombed. Also Kate Kane? You want to pitch a genderqueer actress as a sexy femme fatal?

    Batwoman works on many levels. She's DC's first LGBT superhero and it'll make the first on TV. Ruby Rose fits playing that role of a gay military dropout turned vigilante. The fact that she is a niche character can actually work because people don't have any expectations on this character and her arc is one that hasn't been seen before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  15. - Top - End - #45

    Default Re: Batwoman

    (White) Canary beat her to the small screen by several years. Also Maggie Sawyer and Alex Danvers. Probably more since I quit watching the various series.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    (White) Canary beat her to the small screen by several years. Also Maggie Sawyer and Alex Danvers. Probably more since I quit watching the various series.
    Pardon, first gay superhero to head up her own show (also Maggie isn't a superhero, I'm not counting gay minor characters). Also, first DC Comics Gay Superhero to appear (Citizen Cold of Earth-X and his husband don't count). Sara Lance is a original creation for Arrowverse, although there are minor characters with the name "White Canary" (who are not gay). She also doesn't head the show "Legends of Tomorrow" even if she is sometimes is the leader of the team.

    Also, Sara Lance is bi-sexual.

    By the way, there's a trans-heroine too recently.

    Now all they need is a genderqueer and an intersex, not counting monsters or shape shifters. The Flash (and Batwoman presumably) doesn't count on the queering, you don't get points for the actor's fluidity, although they are casting diverse that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Batwoman works on many levels. She's DC's first LGBT superhero and it'll make the first on TV. Ruby Rose fits playing that role of a gay military dropout turned vigilante. The fact that she is a niche character can actually work because people don't have any expectations on this character and her arc is one that hasn't been seen before.
    My reply is more or less the same as I had regarding the "girl power" issue.

    I'm all in favor for having a lead LGBT superhero.
    But I have to ask, are you sure you want CW to be the ones leading this?

    Their ability to deliver messages is similar in groan levels to a bad 90s afterschool special, they are as subtle as a machine gun, and have no ability to write ANY kind of a healthy relationship between two people.

    My advice? With CW stick with Sara Lance for now, at least in Legends they have fun.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    lAlso, first DC Comics Gay Superhero to appear (Citizen Cold of Earth-X and his husband don't count).
    Keeping in mind I know nothing about them, why don't they count?
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  19. - Top - End - #49

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    Because Reddish Mage is moving the goal posts. As shown when I point out that there's already been an LGBT superhero and then they immediately state that she doesn't count because she's Bisexual and also is not a headliner, despite bi being explicitly included in LGBT and Sara being a superhero, not to mention the closest thing to a title character on LoT.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Because Reddish Mage is moving the goal posts. As shown when I point out that there's already been an LGBT superhero and then they immediately state that she doesn't count because she's Bisexual and also is not a headliner, despite bi being explicitly included in LGBT and Sara being a superhero, not to mention the closest thing to a title character on LoT.
    No, Reddish Mage didn't move the goalpost. He said that Batwoman was the first DC's first LGBQT superhero. You are the one that read the letters D and C, and instead saw C and W. Kate Kane's Batwoman has been around since 2006. Sara Lance debuted in 2012. Therefore, Batwoman came before Sara Lance. Now both Apollo and Midnighter are older than Batwoman but they didn't start being published by DC until 2012. Previous to that they were published by WildStorm,

    Excluding a few character that nobody has heard of because they only existed briefly in What If type alternate realities, Batwoman is DC's first LGBQT superhero.

  21. - Top - End - #51

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    Not even close. Wonder Woman was out as both bi and poly from her creation until the Comics Code restricted interpersonal relations to something a 3 year old in the sandbox wouldn't find icky. She was not the only one (at one point, DC had four running characters that were what we would call genderqueer, not counting the two transvestites), just the most famous. People have no idea how wild the Golden Age of comics really was.

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    Ok. Saw the trailer again and I'm not impressed. First of all it's too long, i have a feeling it's a whole first episode crammed into 3 minutes. Second... well it doesn't tell anytnig about Batwoman as a person. Apart from that she's a woman and a lesbian. Call me old fashioned but shouldn't a tv show be about something more than protagonists sexuality? I'd like to know what's her ambitions, who she is on the inside, what are her dreams, why has she decided to fight crime - not who is she sleeping with. I know it's just a trailer but you can't denny on what the emphasis is put on.
    I understand that representation in tv show is pretty important thing but you can't make it the only thing that matters. Just imagine a tvshow about Batman shouting every sentence that he's a man, therefore he is better than women :/

    Might watch first 2 episodes to check but i'm not yped at all.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    I hope they figure out what they did wrong with that trailer too.
    Establishing Batwoman using Batman's resources and gear and then claim she doesn't him to claim credit for her activities when its only because he exists that even gave her the opportunity?
    Owch.
    Didn't Doom Patrol beat her to that accolade too?
    When was Danny the Street revealed?

    Why didn't they plan this properly?
    You've got the Bat Family for instance why not just reveal Bats helped her early in her vigilante career and she figured out who he was and why he helped her?
    So its not such a complete car crash and you actually show respect for the franchise, is that so hard?

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    Establishing Batwoman using Batman's resources and gear and then claim she doesn't him to claim credit for her activities when its only because he exists that even gave her the opportunity?
    Owch.
    No.

    The gear is not the actions. She defeats crime, she gets credit for the activity. Not the guy who is not there to perform them. Ig noring the issues with vigilante justice, just because some other person did it before that doesn't mean all credit forever goes to them - otherwise, batman also doesn't deserve credit - all credit should go to Zorro and Scarlet Pimpernel who, by your ridiculous logic "only because they exists that even gave him the opportunity".

    If Batman has retired to the Bahamas or died or is captured by Joker or whatever, he doesn't deserve credit by what someone else does in their absence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No.
    The gear is not the actions. She defeats crime, she gets credit for the activity. Not the guy who is not there to perform them. Ig noring the issues with vigilante justice, just because some other person did it before that doesn't mean all credit forever goes to them - otherwise, batman also doesn't deserve credit - all credit should go to Zorro and Scarlet Pimpernel who, by your ridiculous logic "only because they exists that even gave him the opportunity".
    If Batman has retired to the Bahamas or died or is captured by Joker or whatever, he doesn't deserve credit by what someone else does in their absence.
    Grey Wolf
    That's not the way it came across though.
    I hope when they finally release this, they make your point more obvious.
    Last edited by Hopeless; 2019-05-21 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Keeping in mind I know nothing about them, why don't they count?
    I thought it’d be obvious. They appear as special guest characters for a crossover and then it’s finished. Also it’s an otherworld variant on the character. It’s not the same as having a lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Not even close. Wonder Woman was out as both bi and poly from her creation until the Comics Code restricted interpersonal relations to something a 3 year old in the sandbox wouldn't find icky. She was not the only one (at one point, DC had four running characters that were what we would call genderqueer, not counting the two transvestites), just the most famous. People have no idea how wild the Golden Age of comics really was.
    I had an idea about early Wonder Woman, but I don’t recall any out-full lesbian heroes or any male gay ones. My guess is there may have been a side character that never got an issue, even in the Golden Age. Having Wonder Woman kiss a girl occasionally isn’t the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    That's not the way it came across though.
    I hope when they finally release this, they make your point more obvious.
    It's not really different from an F1 racer getting all the credit for a win, despite that they're not the one who built the car, changed the tires, etc. etc. Anyone could have the gear. Not anyone could use it effectively.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It's not really different from an F1 racer getting all the credit for a win, despite that they're not the one who built the car, changed the tires, etc. etc. Anyone could have the gear. Not anyone could use it effectively.
    Honestly, the principle of the line isn't bad. Everyone wants recognition for their accomplishments. But, the framing of it and the "suit is perfection when it's for a woman" line are just eye roll inducing. They seem to be set up as these big witty and powerful lines of dialogue, but they're just so on the nose that I don't really take them seriously.

    Which is more a fault of the writing than the message being presented. But that was the big thing I noticed throughout the trailer, that the dialogue seemed just obvious and preachy. Which is disappointing, since I actually like Kate Kane in the comics. But then I like Barry Allen too, and found the writing on Flash nauseating enough to drop there as well. So it might just be the CW writing style that doesn't agree with me.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    they make your point more obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    dialogue, but they're just so on the nose
    This space left intentionally blank

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    This space left intentionally blank

    Grey Wolf
    Well yeah. It’s almost as though people like different things. And we’re also not exactly discussing the same form of on the nose. My point that the message of aggressive female empowerment is so unsubtle that even when I agree with it I don’t take the dialogue seriously.

    Hopeless is talking about the hope that in context it comes across as less disparaging for what came before.

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