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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground


    This OP is currently full of placeholder answers. Check back in a week.

    I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
    It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy a Start Collecting! box and your favourite Index.
    Or, if you're specifically into Primaris Marines or Death Guard, GW has conveniently set up a number of 'beginner boxes' to get you started.


    What's Dark Imperium?
    Dark Imperium contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

    Comments on Dark Imperium forces.

    How much does it cost?
    Placeholder Answer.

    Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

    Okay, I've got everything. What next?
    Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army. Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

    However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

    How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
    The recommended minimum is 750.
    However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

    As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1000 Points with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

    Comments on Power Rating.

    What's the difference between Power Rating and Points Cost?
    ...A lot.


    I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
    First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

    Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

    Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

    And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

    Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
    Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

    If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

    Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

    How much terrain do I need?
    Anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want at least anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. Don't forget that not all Terrain is 'equal', and you will definitely want a few pieces of terrain that block Line of Sight.

    I don't like using Unique Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
    Your opponents probably don't. Unique Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Unique Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Unique Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

    However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Especially if you play Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

    So which Allies should I pick?
    Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

    I can't paint.
    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

    Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
    Not exactly. There are certainly bad, individual units. But, on the whole, every Faction is playable. However, you must remember that Allies are an intended part of the game - even if you, personally don't like them. If your Faction's entire army list is lacking in a certain area, you may have to consider whether or not it was intended to be that way, and you will have to consider whether or not to bring Allies into your army.

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    Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-26 at 06:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Last time in the Eternal Darkness...

    • Warhammer Fest was a thing. Lots of things happened. Did you care about any of it?
    • Renegade Paladin was back at Mission Design again, looking for feedback.

    ...We now return you back to your Darkness.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    That new thread smell.


    Wish they'd get those Admech transports out here already.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Sylvaneth is next week? I know it got pushed back but dont know when it would leave them.

    Also, GW is apparently reacting to overstock issues. Elite boxes were heavily allocated, as were Forbidden Power boxes (to the tune of 2 per store). Even the new terrain set had shortages. Oh, and no more Looncurse anywhere, and not enough to cover demand.

    I wonder what all of this means, if anything. Are people just not buying enough? Are they going to shift rules to move dead stock? Are they going to bloat their SKUs even more to allienate outlets again? (trade range isnt even everything and is already at over 1400 items. Stocking that is a royal PITA).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Could be they're pulling a Nintendo, and creating artificial shortages in order to drive demand and be able to say they sold out really fast.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Reposting question from last thread.

    Had a new scenario tonight. Kastellan rebounded a missle shot from a tankbusta embarked in a Wagon. We figured the rebound got cancelled out by the embarked rules. Anyone have thoughts on how it should have played out?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    It's a weird rule interaction.

    Personally, I'd say the Embarked unit takes the wound. Here's my reasoning:

    Embarked means the unit can't normally do anything or be affected. Open topped means embarked units can shoot. This overrides the 'embarked units can't do anything or be affected' rule, allowing them to make attacks. Kastelan robots make the unit that attacked them take a wound if they roll a 6. Therefore, the embarked unit takes the wound, because 'normally can't do anything' has already been specifically overriden.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    The main thing I was looking for is to make sure I didn't mess up any of the secondaries. I edited them slightly to remove references to doubling up (since each partner can only pick one, and they can't achieve each others' secondaries) and swap around some things to accommodate doubles format (removing Last Strike from the Old School objective in favor of doubling up Slay the Warlord).
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    Seize Ground
    Drive into enemy territory and seize the area to permit forward landing of reinforcements. Hold until relieved.

    The Armies
    Each team fields the combined 2000 point army submitted to the tournament organizer.

    The Battlefield
    Use the pre-set terrain on the table for this mission. Arrange objectives as shown on the deployment map.


    Deployment
    Use the Hammer and Anvil deployment type (pg. 216) for this mission. The teams roll off – whoever rolls highest picks one of the deployment zones on the map for their army. The opposing team uses the other deployment zone.

    The teams then alternate deploying their units, one at a time, starting with the team who did not pick their deployment zone. A team’s models must be set up within their own deployment zone. Continue setting up units until both sides have set up their armies.

    First Turn
    When both teams finish deploying, they roll off. The team that finished deploying first gains a +1 to this roll. The winner of this roll can choose to take the first or second turn. If the winner of this roll off decides to take the first turn, their opponent can roll a die; on a roll of 6, they manage to seize the initiative, and they get the first turn instead!

    Battle Length
    The mission will last for 6 battle rounds or the end of the battle round that time expiration falls upon, whichever comes first.

    Victory Conditions
    At the end of the game the team that has scored the most Victory Points is the winner. If both teams have the same number of Victory Points, the game is a draw. Victory points are achieved by the following:

    Seize Ground: At the end of each player turn, the team whose turn it is scores 1 victory point if they hold any objective marker, and 1 additional victory point if they have destroyed an enemy unit during the turn. Additionally, at the end of each battle round, the team that holds more objectives scores a victory point, the team that has destroyed more enemy units during that battle round scores a victory point, and if a team controls five or more objective markers they score an additional victory point..

    Personal Objectives: Each player (not each team) selects a single secondary objective from the list overleaf. These objectives can only be scored by that player’s units (in an exception to treating the teams as a combined force), to a maximum of 4 points per objective


    Headhunter: 1pt for each enemy Character that is destroyed.

    Kingslayer: Choose an enemy model that is a Character.
    • Earn 1 point for every 2 wounds of damage it loses, cumulatively.
    • In the instance where a Character may regenerate wounds or resurrect during the course of the game, total wounds it loses over the course of the game are counted towards this mission.
    • If the model selected has the Character and Vehicle or Monster keywords, you earn 1 point for every 4 wounds it loses instead of 1 for every 2.
    • If the Character is also an opponent’s Warlord, earn 1 additional point (to a maximum of 4 total) if it is destroyed.

    Marked for Death: Choose 4 of your opponents’ units with a Power Level of 7+. Earn 1 pt for each of these units destroyed. In order to score this point against a unit that splits into multiple units during the course of play, you must destroy each individual component unit. If a unit joins with another unit during the course of play, to earn this point you must destroy the entire conjoined unit.

    Titan Slayers: For every 8 wounds lost by enemy units with the Titanic keyword in total throughout the course of the game, earn 1 point regardless of wounds being “healed” or “regenerated” etc.

    Gang Busters: For every 6 wounds inflicted on a unit that contains more than 1 model with 3 or more wounds, score 1 point. Units with the SWARM keyword do not count towards this mission.

    Big Game Hunter: 1 point for every enemy model with the Monster or Vehicle keyword and 7+ wounds destroyed.

    Pick Your Poison: Pick up to four keywords from the following list: psyker, fly, biker, vehicle, monster, titanic. You cannot pick a keyword more than once. For each keyword you pick, nominate an enemy unit with that keyword, you cannot nominate a unit for more than 1 keyword. Score 1 point for each nominated unit that is destroyed.

    The Butcher’s Bill: Destroy 2+ enemy units during a player turn to earn 1 Point.

    The Reaper: For every 20 enemy models destroyed, earn 1 point. You count each model when they are destroyed. In the instance of models coming back into play after being destroyed during the course of a game, you may count them each time they are destroyed.

    Recon: Have a unit at least partially in each table quarter at the end of your player turn. A unit may only count as being in one table quarter at a time for the purposes of this rule. 1pt per turn.

    Behind Enemy Lines: If at least one of your units is entirely in the enemy Deployment Zone at the start of your turn, earn 1 Point. A unit is entirely within if every model in the unit is at least partially in the enemy Deployment Zone.

    Ground Control: Earn 1 point for each objective held at the end of the last Battle Round played.

    King of the Hill: At the end of the Battle Round the player who chose this secondary scores 1 point if they have two non-character, multi-model units wholly within 6 inches of the center of the table. Multi-model in this instance means a unit that began the game with more than 1 model.

    Engineers: Select two non-character/non-fortification units from your army to be Engineers. Starting from Battle Round 2, if either of these units starts and ends your turn within 3” of an objective marker you control, and it did not make any attacks or manifest any psychic powers during your turn, earn 1 point at the end of that turn. These units may not score this objective if they join other units during the course of play or split into multiple units. Units chosen to be Engineers may never benefit from a rule that keeps them from being the target of attacks, Cloud of Flies, for example. They can benefit from terrain blocking Line of Sight to them.

    Old School: Earn 1 point for the following:
    • First Strike: An enemy unit is destroyed in the first Battle Round.
    • Slay the Warlords: One point for each enemy Warlord destroyed at game’s end.
    • Linebreaker: Have one of your models within your opponent’s deployment zone at the end of the game.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Reposting question from last thread.

    Had a new scenario tonight. Kastellan rebounded a missle shot from a tankbusta embarked in a Wagon. We figured the rebound got cancelled out by the embarked rules. Anyone have thoughts on how it should have played out?
    Why would it get cancelled? It doesnt have to make sense, the rule is that the shooting unit takes a wound, it doesnt interact with embarked at all.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Personally I would have gone with the Wagon takes a wound. The unit is in it, and it seems cool that an ork would fire and his shot bounces back at his ride. I have no clue if the rules would support that, but it would be the fun thing to do.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Maybe this time I'll remember to update the OP at some point.
    For reference; Guide to building a Thousand Sons' army.

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    Last edited by Wraith; 2019-05-18 at 02:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm going to do Grey Knights at some point. There's rumours that it might be one of the books redone over the next year or so, but in the mean time it's not going to be too hard to type "It's bad, don't bother" 12 times and end with a emoticon.
    If you want Storm Bolter-wielding Deep Striking idiots, play Deathwatch.
    If you want Psychic Power engines, play Thousand Sons.

    If you want both, don't play Grey Knights.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    If you want both, use scarab terminators
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Another argument broke out today...

    Abaddon, one of the best models in the <Chaos> Faction, especially if you're running Cultists and/or Tzaangors. Which the guy, was.

    Now, clearly, the way to shut down Abaddon, is to just spam attacks/Powers that target <Characters>, kill him, and then the Cultists/Tzaangors aren't Fearless anymore, and the entire thing falls apart.
    ...That's even more viable under the new Codex, because Abaddon is the size of Guilliman.

    Except, the model was the old one, on the 40mm base.

    This caused a huge problem as the guy was clearly modelling for advantage. Abaddon has a new model, buy it. The fact that Abaddon is such a powerful model, is represented by the fact that he's such a huge model (and yet still <Infantry>). There is a way to beat Cultist/Tzaangor spam, and it's represented in the soft-nerfing of making Abaddon bigger (and the hard nerfing of Cultists).

    Unfortunately, we're in Australia, so Abaddon is $105 AUD. It's a bit of an...Ask...To ask someone to shell out that much.

    Overheard at the Table
    ...Well, could you at least put the model on a 60mm and build up the base?
    "No."
    ...In that case you're modelling for advantage and you're not gonna get games anymore.
    "That's not fair."
    ...It's not fair that you're modelling for advantage.
    "But Abaddon is $100!"
    ...Sure, and 60mm bases are $7 for three. You wouldn't even have to remodel your existing base, because you can just use the existing base to add height, and then model around it. Like Celestine.
    "No."
    ...In that case you're modelling for advantage, on purpose.
    "But Abaddon is $100."
    You need a new argument, mate*.

    I walked over to see what was going on, and of course, I agree.

    *Used colloquially, 'mate' in the Australian vernacular does not mean 'friend'. What is this, the '80s? In fact, what 'mate' does mean, is what Australians really call their friends.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-05-19 at 12:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    60mm bases are $7 for three
    Like damn, australia tax is real. We throw bases around because they are worthless, cents at most. Are those scenic bases or something?

    Also, being a nation in the pacific rocks. All hail our chinese overlords.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Yikes, yeah, that must be a frustrating argument. Ties a bit into a thing I’ve been wondering if GW will try someday actually: note I’m not suggesting they should try the below, but speculating that they might.

    So, a longer term problem GW has is that current models are good enough it will be difficult to justify further ‘upgrades’ to kits, particularly special characters. For example, while you can slowly roll them out over a fairly long period of time, eventually you’ll run out of Daemon Primarchs: there are 6 active in the Universe, so if you release a new one every couple of years we’ll see the last round about 2027. By that point I’d be very surprised if modelling technology has moved along enough such that the first, Magnus, appears particularly dated. So you have now exhausted that ‘resource’: you can no longer make new daemon primarch models.

    Same goes with space marines. Now they’ve done Primaris Marneus Calgar, how would they ever justify releasing a new sculpt of him? One approach they might choose is what I think of as the ‘silly hat’ approach. Make a new version of a special character that is distinctive in some way, such as wearing a silly hat, and give them a different ruleset for that version of the character. Ideally keep the old version available as well: if you’re using the old model you use the older rules, you need the new model for the new rules. You could even drive sales a bit by having one kit be able to make multiple versions who all have different rules: Magnus with staff, Magnus with his shirt off, etc.

    If the rule were that the version of a model matters, and older ones are still useable but not with new rules, it would prevent the scenario Cheesegear describes where someone wants to proxy with an old version, unless their opponent agreed to it. I’m not at all sure if this is a good idea, but think it’s an interesting thing to think about.
    Last edited by Avaris; 2019-05-19 at 03:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    1. State in the datasheet the base size, like WMH and infinity do.
    2. Lose True LoS, move to either cylinders (WMH) or silhouettes (Infinity). That way your model can be whatever you want, wont have any rules effects.

    Done, the above scenario can never again ocurr, and you've cut a ton of 'I can see its arm, does that count?' arguments.

    Of course, it will never happen, but thats the simplest solution.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Same goes with space marines. Now they’ve done Primaris Marneus Calgar, how would they ever justify releasing a new sculpt of him? One approach they might choose is what I think of as the ‘silly hat’ approach. Make a new version of a special character that is distinctive in some way, such as wearing a silly hat, and give them a different ruleset for that version of the character.
    This is exactly what I said towards the end of last thread with how M:tG keeps redefining its characters - specifically Planeswalkers, the main characters. And new rules are constantly added when Wizards knows that cards will be phased out. When the Standard cycle phases out the existing version of Garruk, they make sure to include a new version of Garruk in the next set. It boggles my mind that after 20 years, Wizards is still creating new stories for Karn...Even Teferi came back!

    But, I don't think GW should constantly release new kits. The reason that M:tG does it, because old versions are phased out. GW doesn't phase out models if they can help it. Which means that in order to keep releasing new kits that people will buy, they would have to introduce massive power creep. Otherwise why buy the new model, when your existing one already works?

    What I do think, is that GW should encourage conversions. Calgar did a thing, time to make a conversion out of it. If you want to upgrade any model to Primaris, do it. Calgar said it can be done. I've seen a converted Lysander. It was fine. From the fluff - Malodrax - I know that Darnath Lysander can basically survive anything. If anyone should be made Primaris, it's him. Unfortunately, Primaris Captains can't have Thunder Hammers or Storm Shields, so it's bad. But why not give Lysander an extra Wound and extra Attack? As with Pri-Marneus, we know it doesn't cost any extra Points to 'upgrade' someone...They lose the ability to Deep Strike and ride in Land Raiders, and gain the ability to ride in Repulsors.

    So why not just encourage conversions for any rules you make up? Why make new models at all, when you can give your players the ability to do hobby?

    Because Chapterhouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Done, the above scenario can never again ocurr, and you've cut a ton of 'I can see its arm, does that count?' arguments.
    8th Ed. removed those scenarios.
    The model is the model. No exceptions.
    That's why the size of your model, matters.
    That's why I don't put unit Banners on my models anymore.
    That's why Land Raiders can shoot over terrain using their antennae.

    It's stupidly abusable. But it is the rules.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    I hate the whole modelling thing. My meta basically houserules in common sense.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I hate the whole modelling thing. My meta basically houserules in common sense.
    The problem is that one person’s common sense is another person’s clear abuse of the system.

    This sort of thing is a large part of why I personally don’t think 40k is at all a good system for players who play with winning as their primary concern (to use Magic the Gathering archetypes, the Spikes: I’m not saying winning isn’t important to anyone else, but it isn’t necessarily the focus), and clearly it isn’t a focus for GW designers either. Though given the Spike crowd is a large part of the community, they should try to improve in this regard.

    Actually, applying the magic archetypes to GW: the game is written by Timmy/Tammy and Johnny/Jenny types, who want to create an experience and allow people to express themselves in their army, playing for the satisfaction of playing that thing even if it doesn’t win all the time: they’ll collect e.g. Grey Knights because they’re cool, not because they win. This tendency is emphasised by the game design being driven by the models coming out of the studio, with the modellers focus being even more on the Timmy/Tammy archetype by making awesome models. Yet a large part of the community, particularly online, are Spikes, who aren’t well served by the design philosophy adopted by GW.
    Last edited by Avaris; 2019-05-19 at 04:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    The problem is that one person’s common sense is another person’s clear abuse of the system.
    Sure is. That's why having a clear set of rules is so important. So that everyone is on the same page.
    There can't be room for error, because once people start 'interpreting' the rules, it goes wrong.

    This sort of thing is a large part of why I personally don’t think 40k is at all a good system for players who play with winning as their primary concern
    Then why play the game at all if you don't want to win?
    As I've expressed numerous times, all the way down to the 'casual' level, there is nobody playing the game who wants to lose games. The aim of any game, is always to win.

    Everybody wants to have fun. Nobody wants to lose.
    It's not the same thing.

    Being willing to lose games, isn't the same as designing your list to lose. Nobody does that.
    What people do, is design their list to have fun...They don't design to lose. This is why people get mad, because What They Like != What Is Good.

    who want to create an experience and allow people to express themselves in their army
    Yep. And if you do that, then it will sit on your shelf and never see the light of day, save through photos you may post on the internet.

    they’ll collect e.g. Grey Knights because they’re cool, not because they win.
    Collecting, is not the same as playing.
    You can collect anything you want.

    The instant you put your army on the board, it becomes a game that you can win at, and a game you can lose at.

    For fun to the be the primary concern, you must force a situation in which the end result is that you can't lose.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-05-19 at 04:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Same goes with space marines. Now they’ve done Primaris Marneus Calgar, how would they ever justify releasing a new sculpt of him? One approach they might choose is what I think of as the ‘silly hat’ approach. Make a new version of a special character that is distinctive in some way, such as wearing a silly hat, and give them a different ruleset for that version of the character. Ideally keep the old version available as well: if you’re using the old model you use the older rules, you need the new model for the new rules. You could even drive sales a bit by having one kit be able to make multiple versions who all have different rules: Magnus with staff, Magnus with his shirt off, etc.
    They have precedent for this with Blood Angels - Captain Tycho had different rules depending on what colour you chose to paint him between Red and Black. Admittedly it was the same model that you had to buy twice, but the principal is sound.

    With their increasing use of Push-To-Fit miniatures, it might not be all that hard to design a model with intentionally detachable arms/heads/accessories that each represent a different ruleset, especially in the bigger models like Primarchs and Daemon Princes.
    They're already experimenting with action figures and their Kung-Fu Grip action holding on to boltguns and the likes; all it would take is a note in the assembly instructions to "DO NOT GLUE THIS PART" and then sell and upgrade pack with a new head/weapon in it or something. Or be GW and just sell the same model twice, that's always plausible so long as each version is more or less balanced with each other so there isn't one runaway favourite.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2019-05-19 at 05:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Then why play the game at all if you don't want to win?
    As I've expressed numerous times, all the way down to the 'casual' level, there is nobody playing the game who wants to lose games. The aim of any game, is always to win.

    Everybody wants to have fun. Nobody wants to lose.
    It's not the same thing.
    I said PRIMARY concern. I absolutely don’t mind losing, so designing to win isn’t the main focus of my list building. But that’s not the same as saying winning isn’t important to some extent. Not doing everything I can to win isn’t the same as designing to lose.

    And you’re fundamentally wrong that the aim of any game is always to win. Every game will indeed have a way of determining the vistor, and people will be pursuing that goal, but that’s not the same as the aim being always to win. I’ve played many games where winning is of secondary concern. I’ve had games where I’ve enjoyed losing, or where the totting up of scores at the end is more ‘that’s interesting’ than really caring about who won.

    This is why the MtG psychographics are useful. They highlight that it’s not always about winning as the primary motivator. For some people it is, they’re the Spikes. For others it’s about having an experience or winning in a particular way. All are valid.

    The problem GW has, which I am trying to express, is that it’s clear the games designers are not in the Spikey way of thinking. So I’m not sure they’ll ever be able to design a version of 40k that satisfies the criteria of those with a Spike mindset. They craft a game that is an experience, with winning a secondary concern in their minds. But they absolutely should find other ways to create experiences that do suit the Spike mindset: that’s why things like Underworlds are interesting, I think that’s where they’re putting their Spike focus.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    I said PRIMARY concern. I absolutely don’t mind losing, so designing to win isn’t the main focus of my list building.
    Like others, you're choosing to read my point in the way you want to read it.
    If given the choice, would you choose to lose?

    "This list is ****, I know it's ****, and I'm going to put it onto the table and lose ten times in a row."
    No-one designs lists to lose on purpose.

    I’ve played many games where winning is of secondary concern.
    Then you aren't playing the game properly.

    I’ve had games where I’ve enjoyed losing
    Did. You. Choose. To. Lose? Or, did you lose because your opponent was better at the game than you?
    When you lost, did you play the game a second time, and then adamantly refuse to improve your game? Did you see the reasons for why you lost, and then make the same choices you made last time, despite knowing that those choices led you to lose the game last time?

    Nobody plays any game that way. Because losing, in and of itself, isn't fun. Winning, is. That's just how endorphins work.

    When you lose, and still have 'fun'...It's usually something else that made the game fun. Most likely, it's the fact that you were simply playing the game with your friend. Anything done with your friends is more fun.
    Great. I play games with my friends all the time. We both try to win.

    Playing 'Memes with Mates', isn't the same as playing 40K.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-05-19 at 06:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Then why play the game at all if you don't want to win?
    As I've expressed numerous times, all the way down to the 'casual' level, there is nobody playing the game who wants to lose games. The aim of any game, is always to win.

    Everybody wants to have fun. Nobody wants to lose.
    It's not the same thing.

    Being willing to lose games, isn't the same as designing your list to lose. Nobody does that.
    What people do, is design their list to have fun...They don't design to lose. This is why people get mad, because What They Like != What Is Good.

    For fun to the be the primary concern, you must force a situation in which the end result is that you can't lose.
    You've said things like this before, and I disagree.

    Lots of games are not about winning. There are some games where you can't win. How do you win Minecraft? How do you win SimCity, or Roller Coaster Tycoon, or Dungeons and Dragons?

    Why is the motto of Dwarf Fortress "Losing is Fun" if the objective is always winning?

    To continue with the MtG example, back when I played I built decks that weren't good, because the purpose of the decks was not necessariy to win; it was to get some stupid combo to work. Sometimes getting the combo to work resulted in winning, but winning wasn't the point. The point was the stupid combo. I lost innumerable games. But I always had fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Then you aren't playing the game properly the way I would play it
    Fixed that for you.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Lots of games are not about winning. There are some games where you can't win. How do you win Minecraft? How do you win SimCity, or Roller Coaster Tycoon, or Dungeons and Dragons?
    It's upsetting 'cause you even quoted the part where I explicitly addressed this...

    For fun to the be the primary concern, you must force a situation in which the end result is that you can't lose.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-05-19 at 06:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It's upsetting 'cause you even quoted the part where I explicitly addressed this...
    You can absolutely lose those games. You just can't win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...Contrastingly, forcing a situation where you can't win, is simply the opposite side of the coin. But still the same thing.

    The only problem I have, is that all of your examples were single player games, and not competitive games where human interaction becomes a factor.

    Except for D&D. Which you can win and lose at.
    This is why doing tons of edits is a problem.

    Anyways. I like single player games. I don't like multiplayer. I don't like competition. I played hearthstone for a while, and it was my favourite competetive multiplayer game ever because it removed basically all interaction with the opponent, allowing me to think of them as an especially good AI - which sometimes they were, to be fair. Bots were a thing.

    So why the heck would someone like me, by your metric, want to play 40k?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    You can absolutely lose those games. You just can't win.
    Oops. What I meant was, your examples are not competitive.
    If you can win at it, and you can lose at it. Then it's competitive. If you can't win and lose, you are not playing a competitive game.

    Secondly - and perhaps more importantly - your examples don't include games that involve other players, except for D&D. And in D&D, there definite is a win state, and a lose state. As a DM, I definitely know when a player has 'lost'. And 'winning', is essentially retiring your character in a way that you're happy with. There are many, many ways to retire a character that you can be unhappy with, and you can very well have 'lost'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    So why the heck would someone like me, by your metric, want to play 40k?
    My guess is that you are treating the game as a social encounter. In which case the game is basically irrelevant.
    You can do anything with other people and have it be fun.

    Playing a game with friends, and losing. Is most definitely not the same as playing the game with someone who isn't neccessarily your friend, and then actively trying to lose.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-05-19 at 06:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    My guess is that you are treating the game as a social encounter. In which case the game is basically irrelevant.
    You can do anything with other people and have it be fun.
    Which doesn't answer why I want to play 40k specifically. I could do other things with my friends, that's true enough. Why might I want to play 40k, but not some other game?

    I'll certainly allow that I don't want to play it competetively, in tournaments and whatnot. That's not especially interesting for me. I might play at the local game store, or whatever, but I'm not going to go signing up for tournaments any time soon.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    I skipped over this. I shouldn't have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    To continue with the MtG example, back when I played I built decks that weren't good, because the purpose of the decks was not necessariy to win; it was to get some stupid combo to work. Sometimes getting the combo to work resulted in winning
    ...Then you aren't talking about what I'm talking about. If your 'combo deck' ever won, then your idea was a good idea and it has merit. You won games built around a combo you found interesting. You noticed some mechanics that interacted well, and you utilised them.

    What was the purpose of the combo? If the combo gave yourself an advantage, or your opponent a disadvantage, you were playing to win. Stupidly, maybe, depending on the combo. But I guarantee you that the purpose of the combo wasn't to make you lose games. Losing may have been a possible - or even expected - outcome. But it certainly wasn't the intent.

    An old Dredge deck, for example, isn't the same as 'I'm going to deck myself out and lose every game on purpose.' Because Dredge isn't necessarily a mechanic that makes you lose - there's a point to it. Milling yourself out of the game, on the other hand, without Dredge, is just dumb.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-05-19 at 06:43 AM.
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