Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[Blackhawk748]

Case in point, the Admech transport.

Why did you remind me that that thing exists? We already had a Higgins boat!

[Cheesegear]

but a GOOD tournament designed game would have that as the starting point, rather than the models.

8th Ed. does have that as the starting point. Unfortunately, what we got was 6 months of beta rules that we had to pay for until the first Chapter Approved and the first few Codecies to come out to give us an indication of where 40K was going to go.

If you don't think 40K is a tournament-worthy game...You must be like, 18 months behind the curve. Which is really weird since the internet should allow you to keep up with trends in real time. All of the Codecies are finally in a place after 3 FAQs where GW wants them. We're now in a position to start releasing supplements (Vigilus) and extended rules for Codecies or small Factions (White Dwarf).

The problem, more or less, is how much does GW give a **** about rules printed in White Dwarf? They seemed to care a great deal when it came to Assassins and Ynnari. They even had to Errata the Assassins. Which means that on some level GW actually does care about what goes into WD.

They didn't seem to care about Blood Ravens. The fluff behind the rules is basically non-existant and the rules themselves are garbage. So why'd they even print it?

What part of Blood Ravens' fluff indicates that they shouldn't be wounded on 2s?
What part of Blood Ravens' fluff indicates that they need a Bolt Pistol as their Relic?

Go on over to Crimson Fists; They fight hordes and hold the line. They like Power Fists and Storm Bolters.
What's their Chapter Tactic? Fight hordes.
What's their Warlord Traits? Extra Attacks, Don't Die and Hold Objectives (Noting that Blood Ravens didn't get any)
What's their (new) Stratagems? Kill <Orks> and donkey punch <Characters>. RYNN'S WORLD! **** YEAH!
What's their (new) Relic? A Primaris Heavy Bolter. Really!? Holy ****.
('Member that time when Davian Thule was a Captain with a Heavy Bolter? Good times.)

The fluff behind the rules, checks out.
The rules attempt to address some issues with the Codex.

Are White Dwarf!Crimson Fists going to change the meta? Hell no. Where's Guilliman and the Forge World Dreadnoughts at?
Can you put Crimson Fists on the table though, and feel like GW cares about you? Yes.

[Blackhawk748]

Franjkly Blood Raven's should have multiple Relics, considering them having a vault of loot is totally in character and rather explicit in the fluff. Once being a decent Bolt/Plasma Pistol is fine, but there should be a Banner, a Power Weapon and some Artificer Armor as well in there, as those were big items in DoW 2 and people would remember the names.

Seriously, this wasn't hard.

[LansXero]

Or you could've gone full meme and gotten Indrick Boreale in there with an Steel Rain warlord trait that lets Blood Ravens deep strike closer to the enemy so long as its also within Boreale's bubble. They being the Emperor's fury and all that.

One thing the Blood Ravens arent lacking is named characters with cool abilities and personalities; even having their Captains be called 'Force Comnmanders' alone would've been a nice callback. Or make the 'Force Commander' a captain/lieutenant hybrid to save in HQ slots. or Captain/librarian. Or Lieutenant / librarian.

Or shine light on their heretic schism and make them anti-chaos and anti-daemon af because they should be rigthfully pissed at them.

Or work in Angelos being buddy-buddy with the Eldars and give them their own, eldar-lite discipline (like librarius with a every power getting a secondary version tacked on so it sucks a bit less)

[Avaris]

8th Ed. does have that as the starting point. Unfortunately, what we got was 6 months of beta rules that we had to pay for until the first Chapter Approved and the first few Codecies to come out to give us an indication of where 40K was going to go.

If you don't think 40K is a tournament-worthy game...You must be like, 18 months behind the curve. Which is really weird since the internet should allow you to keep up with trends in real time. All of the Codecies are finally in a place after 3 FAQs where GW wants them. We're now in a position to start releasing supplements (Vigilus) and extended rules for Codecies or small Factions (White Dwarf).

I guess my point is that a game can be ‘good enough’ for tournament play, but if it’s not designed with that as the first consideration there will keep being compromises made that prevent it being as good as it can be at giving that experience. Which means that only evaluating things from a tournament informed mindset is counterproductive and limits people from full enjoyment of the game.

Is 8th ed usable for tournament play? Yes, absolutely, and GW is supporting that with FAQ and errata. They’ve suceeded in developing a ruleset that allows them to make a wide variety of units that are both distinctive and roughly balanced against each other. So if you want to play tournaments with it, go do that! It supports you doing so.

Is 8th ed good for tournament play? This is where our opinions differ. It is possibly the best any edition has been for it, but I’d still argue that it is not a good game for tournaments (when compared to stuff like MtG) and never can be, given what we know about the design approach behind it. If the minatures team came up with a model whose flavour and background indicated it did something that was game breaking, the rules team would have to write rules that did that and try to make it work. If there is something an army desperately needs the rules team can’t just add it in, they need the model.

So, in my opinion, it’s not worth getting too into thinking of 40k as a tournament game. There are plenty of people who disagree with me, and that’s fine! All I want is for people to bear the design process in mind when evaluating rules and models, so as to manage their expectations on what is being released. I also think it means that the type of game encouraged by tournaments, which push the game to the limit and relies on intricate understanding of the rules, limits enjoyment of the game in ways that are at odds with the core design intent. If you enjoy tournaments, great! I just think that a more relaxed attitude is, for me, more appropriate to what the game wants to be.

I apply this evaluation to any game: what does the game want to be, and is it meeting that experience? Which is why the games being produced with radically different design intents are interesting to me, as they are actually being allowed to design into that rather than being solely led by the needs of the minatures team. 40k and AoS are led by the minatures design, so while they can be used for tournaments they will never excel in that field: there will always be compromises that have been made.

NONE OF THIS IS SUPPORT FOR THE BLOOD RAVENS CODEX. It’s a coincidence that we’re talking about the two things at the same time, as the Blood Ravens codex and the insight into the rules writing process came in the same WD. As Cheesegear has ably demonstrated, there are a lot of things that would be much much better at capturing the flavour of the army than what we got.

The rules you wrote are the sort of thing that should be produced by the GW design process. I have no idea why they didn’t. If I had to speculate, I’d say it’s because they figure that if you want to play a psyker heavy army you should play Grey Knights or Thousand Sons, so the BR needed another niche. Possibly with a side order of not having the resources to playtest it, so going for something they know can’t be game breaking. This has led to bad rules that don’t make anyone happy.

Are White Dwarf!Crimson Fists going to change the meta? Hell no. Where's Guilliman and the Forge World Dreadnoughts at?
Can you put Crimson Fists on the table though, and feel like GW cares about you? Yes.

This is what they should be achieving, and they’ve definitely failed here. In fact, my arguement above is that these two questions are what GW is trying to do with every release: they don’t want things that break the meta, as that means more resources are needed to fix the problem, but they want someone who picked up a model or painted in a certain way to feel their choice is supported and enjoyable to play with. This isn’t either, which is disappointing.

[Forum Explorer]

To explain (not defend) GW's Blood Ravens, I think it's because

a) Unlike Ynnari and Assassins, Blood Ravens are entirely new. They have no data from the Index, and no preceding codex or even white dwarf from past editions to draw upon.

b) They are very much a 'fan favor.' I don't think that GW really cares about Blood Ravens, but it cost them almost nothing to make, so they spat out those rules.

c) They are a third party faction, coming from Dawn of War. That's more to explain b.

d) I think it's more about selling the new model. Kinda like when they were selling Esienhorn. They came out with rules for him, even though they were not that great. It still helps sell more of them.

[LansXero]

I also think it means that the type of game encouraged by tournaments, which push the game to the limit and relies on intricate understanding of the rules, limits enjoyment of the game in ways that are at odds with the core design intent.

The part you always skip is that these things cost money and need to sell. Hobby projects are a way more niche market than stuff that can be used to play with; and even if casual-world of Guilliman being OP and Reivers being a totally viable choice isnt tuned for tournament play, the playability of models still informs their purchases. Making pointless bogus BS that nerfs your chances of winning just by fielding it is not a good recipe to continue selling models, specially since GW models come at a premium respective to their competitors.

This is why, even though they cost almost nothing and GW will credit you for them after a year, most stores opt out of receiving their White Dwarf subscriptions. They dont sell outside of some very few, very niche areas, because most of the people who play / buy Warhammer can use the internet and find 'hobby stuff' for free, and 'cool, alternative, fluffy stuff' is worthless. And despite this, the one with actually relevant, playable rules (Assassins) sold out.

If you enjoy tournaments, great! I just think that a more relaxed attitude is, for me, more appropriate to what the game wants to be.

There is no 'apropriate'. The game can want to be whatever, doesnt matter, its the market that will tell it what it has to be. The game can become it, or die in shelves like fantasy did.

40k and AoS are led by the minatures design, so while they can be used for tournaments they will never excel in that field: there will always be compromises that have been made.

Fun fact #1: War of the Spark was designed from the top down, forced to tell the wrap-up story of Bolas' storyline and the gatewatch.

Fun fact #2: War of the Spark is the best sold expansion for MTG in all of its 25 years, to the point it eclipsed the first direct-to-Modern expansion they ever printed and the current Core Set.

Fun fact #3: You can totally build to narrative first, mechanics second and still have a best-selling, competitively balanced, tournament ready product. And a MTG expansion has way more moving parts than a miniatures release does. YuGiOh's Duel Terminal storyline brought fun and balanced archetypes to the game while developing a story that while not great writing was still much more complex than what the game was used to handle. Cards were built around specific events and characters, and unlike many things ported straight from the anime, they are quite playable, interactive and fun without being overpowered.

Possibly with a side order of not having the resources to playtest it, so going for something they know can’t be game breaking. This has led to bad rules that don’t make anyone happy.

1. Wat. GW JUST RAISED THEIR PRICES FOR NO REASON. They made a killing off of Contrast. Which comes on the tails of several sold-out releases. 'not having resources' makes no sense, its just 'they dont want to do any of it'.
2. It doesnt require extensive playtest to know the trait is crap, a relic pistol is worthless and 2 pages worth of content is a slap on the face to fans of the videogame. Dawn of War, like it or hate it, has brought so many people into contact with Warhammer and its lore, units and characters that its really unfair its being treated like this.

[Blackhawk748]

1. Wat. GW JUST RAISED THEIR PRICES FOR NO REASON. They made a killing off of Contrast. Which comes on the tails of several sold-out releases. 'not having resources' makes no sense, its just 'they dont want to do any of it'.

Laziness or belief that it doesn't matter frankly. GW is pretty awful about this and Im still amazed, but Im really not, that they don't have their own Forums. Virtually every other game does. On top of this they partnered with FLG and THEY can tell them what sucks or doesn't or they could have them playtest.

Or hell, have us do it, just don't make me pay for it!

2. It doesnt require extensive playtest to know the trait is crap, a relic pistol is worthless and 2 pages worth of content is a slap on the face to fans of the videogame. Dawn of War, like it or hate it, has brought so many people into contact with Warhammer and its lore, units and characters that its really unfair its being treated like this.

I can tell you, 100% truth, it's the only reason that I play 40k at all. I was introduced back when it launched and its why I bought Battle of Macragge. Battle of Macragge being awesome kept me in.

[LansXero]

I can tell you, 100% truth, it's the only reason that I play 40k at all. I was introduced back when it launched and its why I bought Battle of Macragge. Battle of Macragge being awesome kept me in.

I wonder if, had Total War: Warhammer happened years ago when Fantasy was still alive, it could've saved that game. We get like 2 - 3 people every month wanting to check out the models from that game (being THE warhammer store for our country) and being dissapointed the game is dead. Of course, most of them cant afford Warhammer, but they want a cool figure of their favorite general, lord or hero and more info on all the awesome lore the game hints to. Which is all gone, because GW thought they knew better than the market what their game should be.

[Avaris]

The part you always skip is that these things cost money and need to sell. Hobby projects are a way more niche market than stuff that can be used to play with; and even if casual-world of Guilliman being OP and Reivers being a totally viable choice isnt tuned for tournament play, the playability of models still informs their purchases. Making pointless bogus BS that nerfs your chances of winning just by fielding it is not a good recipe to continue selling models, specially since GW models come at a premium respective to their competitors.

You’re absolutely right: at no point in this discussion have I said this is the correct model for GW to be following. They should be led much more by the needs of the game than they are. My point in raising this is to explore why and how they do things currently, as I think it’s interesting to try and understand that.

Fun fact #1: War of the Spark was designed from the top down, forced to tell the wrap-up story of Bolas' storyline and the gatewatch.

Fun fact #2: War of the Spark is the best sold expansion for MTG in all of its 25 years, to the point it eclipsed the first direct-to-Modern expansion they ever printed and the current Core Set.

Fun fact #3: You can totally build to narrative first, mechanics second and still have a best-selling, competitively balanced, tournament ready product. And a MTG expansion has way more moving parts than a miniatures release does. YuGiOh's Duel Terminal storyline brought fun and balanced archetypes to the game while developing a story that while not great writing was still much more complex than what the game was used to handle. Cards were built around specific events and characters, and unlike many things ported straight from the anime, they are quite playable, interactive and fun without being overpowered.

Sure; you’re absolutely right that you can design around a narrative hook. But MtG is still made from the mindset of ‘gameplay first’. If they had found it absolutely impossible to make a set about the Planeswalker War, they’d have cancelled it without ever telling us about it: their design process has the time available to do that.

Also, the narrative hook is very broad in War of the Spark: there was a lot of freedom within that top down design to find something that works. The equivalent to GW would be for the mtg game designers to have been given all of the artwork for the set before they started designing cards. The GW rules team are literally given the finished model and told to come up with rules for it: that’s extremely restrictive.

Again, I’m not saying this is a good model. It’s terrible. But it’s the one they follow, so I manage my expectations based on it.

1. Wat. GW JUST RAISED THEIR PRICES FOR NO REASON. They made a killing off of Contrast. Which comes on the tails of several sold-out releases. 'not having resources' makes no sense, its just 'they dont want to do any of it'.
2. It doesnt require extensive playtest to know the trait is crap, a relic pistol is worthless and 2 pages worth of content is a slap on the face to fans of the videogame. Dawn of War, like it or hate it, has brought so many people into contact with Warhammer and its lore, units and characters that its really unfair its being treated like this.

By ‘not having resources’ I mean ‘the rules studio hasn’t been allocated sufficient resources’ not ‘GW hasn’t got the money to do this’. It’s an internal management decision on how much to allocate to this part of the business. I think things are getting better in this regard: the importance of the rules studio is being realised, but it is taking time for them to build capacity after years of being regarded as an optional extra by management (which seems to have been widely disfunctional until the last few years).

Again, not defending this model. Just trying to understand how GW works and basing my assessment on that. It’s not that the rules designers are lazy or incompetent (except for that one guy with a bolt pistol obsession ), it’s that they’ve been dealt a bad hand by management.

In terms of the recent raising of prices and contrast paints, note of course that these rules would have been finalised back in March at the latest, before any of that.

In terms of the need for playtest to determine that it’s bad; that’s not what I’m saying. Rather, they need time to playtest to ensure that whatever they came up with isn’t brokenly good. In this case, I’ll wager that they were told to come up with rules without having any capacity to do that playtest. Therefore, they made the decision that bad rules, which they know are not broken, are better than potentially broken rules that they don’t have time to playtest. I think this is the wrong decision to have made, but I’d be very surprised if they were unaware of these rules not being particularly good or exciting.

(Again, not defending these rules or the model that resulted in them. I just find it fascinating to try and understand why GW makes the decisions they do, and I think the answer is much more ‘legacy corporate attitude devaluing rules writing’ than ‘rules designers are not good at their job’.)

[LansXero]

Yeah no, I get that Blood Ravens were never going to be a meta-buster. I dont even expect them to fill any relevant niches in the Space Marines arsenal, thats Cheese's argument.

I just expected them to feel like Blood Ravens.

Gabriel Angelos is neither a new character nor a new model. The chapter, its armoury, its relevant campaigns, its relevant tactics, wargear, relics, etc. are all fleshed out in detail over the course of almost a dozen videogames. None of it made it to the index. I know you are not defending it on its own merits, but rather as the 'logical result of GW's process'. Which is BS because that same process gave us Assassins and Crimson Fists; neither Kantor nor the assasins are new models either, so I dont know how the whole 'GW comes up with minis first!!" argument fits there.

Im not just being mad about toy soldiers. Hyping up a White Dwarf, a product thats already a hard sell, with a throwback to an iconic, beloved faction of a very popular game that endeared the franchise to a lot of people to have those expectations deflated so bad doesnt just hurts GW, it hurts us independent stockists more. People get tired of being hyped and being dissapointed, and the goodwill and trust thats necessary for the hobby to function gets damaged. Even more so when there was so much for them to work with that got discarded. If this was a truly mysterious / new thing, fine, people wouldnt know what to expect so it would be more easy to justify. But having so much lore, events, people and items to use and then having none of it brought into tabletop is just sad.

[Avaris]

Yeah no, I get that Blood Ravens were never going to be a meta-buster. I dont even expect them to fill any relevant niches in the Space Marines arsenal, thats Cheese's argument.

I just expected them to feel like Blood Ravens.

Gabriel Angelos is neither a new character nor a new model. The chapter, its armoury, its relevant campaigns, its relevant tactics, wargear, relics, etc. are all fleshed out in detail over the course of almost a dozen videogames. None of it made it to the index. I know you are not defending it on its own merits, but rather as the 'logical result of GW's process'. Which is BS because that same process gave us Assassins and Crimson Fists; neither Kantor nor the assasins are new models either, so I dont know how the whole 'GW comes up with minis first!!" argument fits there.

Im not just being mad about toy soldiers. Hyping up a White Dwarf, a product thats already a hard sell, with a throwback to an iconic, beloved faction of a very popular game that endeared the franchise to a lot of people to have those expectations deflated so bad doesnt just hurts GW, it hurts us independent stockists more. People get tired of being hyped and being dissapointed, and the goodwill and trust thats necessary for the hobby to function gets damaged. Even more so when there was so much for them to work with that got discarded. If this was a truly mysterious / new thing, fine, people wouldnt know what to expect so it would be more easy to justify. But having so much lore, events, people and items to use and then having none of it brought into tabletop is just sad.

No disagreement here. Massive swing and a miss here. As a lore nerd, I appreciate the many pages of fluff given in the WD, but the rules should have been supporting that.

Edit: it's not even a logical result of GW's own process; the way it should work, from what we can see elsewhere in the WD, is being led by the narrative, which should have delivered what you're asking for. That it didn't, to me, points to not having had any resources at all to develop these rules, so going for a 'safe' option, which is a shame.

[Cheesegear]

There is no 'apropriate'. The game can want to be whatever, doesnt matter, its the market that will tell it what it has to be. The game can become it, or die in shelves like fantasy did.

QFT.

Fun fact #1: War of the Spark was designed from the top down, forced to tell the wrap-up story of Bolas' storyline and the gatewatch.

I don't even play M:tG anymore and I'm still highly invested in where the story went.

2. It doesnt require extensive playtest to know the trait is crap, a relic pistol is worthless and 2 pages worth of content is a slap on the face to fans of the videogame. Dawn of War, like it or hate it, has brought so many people into contact with Warhammer and its lore, units and characters that its really unfair its being treated like this.

I credit Dawn of War with me getting back into the hobby.

but they want a cool figure of their favorite general, lord or hero and more info on all the awesome lore the game hints to.

One Tomb Kings, please.
...Oh.

Yeah no, I get that Blood Ravens were never going to be a meta-buster. I dont even expect them to fill any relevant niches in the Space Marines arsenal, thats Cheese's argument.

Not really my argument is...

I just expected them to feel like Blood Ravens.

...If that were true, they would feel a relevant niche in the Space Marine Codex. I'm saying that the way that Blood Ravens are written, they should be viable in the meta if written barely competently. Deny the Witch and hold Objectives. That's all you gotta do.

Fluffy and crunchy at the same time.

Gabriel Angelos is neither a new character nor a new model. The chapter, its armoury, its relevant campaigns, its relevant tactics, wargear, relics, etc. are all fleshed out in detail over the course of almost a dozen videogames. None of it made it to the index.

Which is what I'm actually angry about.
The only reason that Blood Ravens could have been designed this badly, is if no-one gave a ****. Again, see Assassins for it done right. See Crimson Fists for doing it competently.

If you want to talk about 'swing and a miss' as Avaris puts it, then look at Ynnari:
- A full set of Warlord Traits,
- A full set of Stratagems (albeit some of them are just reprints with new names),
- A set of Psychic Powers,
- A page of Relics,
- Three Characters (I don't know if they were changed or if they're reprints, but if they were, that's another point in my favour)
In a White Dwarf.

GW even specifically nerfed Strength from Death because it was broke as ****.

There's the problem.

You can't deny that GW didn't at least put some effort into addressing the problems caused by Ynnari.
However, you can also fairly rightly say that it might also be true that GW didn't know how to fix Ynnari.

It's a lot like Space Wolves. You can tell that somebody at GW tried. All their HQs (i.e; Character models) are fantastic. Almost to the point where a Space Wolves Supreme Command is all you actually need from Space Wolves. Then hop on over to a better Codex for your Troops and Heavy Support needs.

Effort was clearly put in (yes, even with the Space Wolf Warlord Traits). It's a shame that it didn't pay off. The meta just doesn't play to what Space Wolves are about. Made more frustrating by Blood Angels being better than Space Wolves at being Space Wolves, and Custodes Jetbikes being better ThunderCav than ThunderCav.

Blood Ravens...Isn't that. Blood Ravens isn't even close to 'swing and a miss' like Space Wolves or Ynnari.

Blood Ravens is not swinging at all, and then complaining that you got bowled for a duck.

[Turalisj]

And then.... There's Tau.

[Blackhawk748]

I wonder if, had Total War: Warhammer happened years ago when Fantasy was still alive, it could've saved that game. We get like 2 - 3 people every month wanting to check out the models from that game (being THE warhammer store for our country) and being dissapointed the game is dead. Of course, most of them cant afford Warhammer, but they want a cool figure of their favorite general, lord or hero and more info on all the awesome lore the game hints to. Which is all gone, because GW thought they knew better than the market what their game should be.

Honestly? I bet it would have. On top of Warhammer Total War being a solid game all around, it does feel a lot like WHFB and so it could have gotten people into it. Or at least shifted more models.

Blood Ravens...Isn't that. Blood Ravens isn't even close to 'swing and a miss' like Space Wolves or Ynnari.

Blood Ravens is not swinging at all, and then complaining that you got bowled for a duck.

Exactly. I like Gabriel Angelos. I like him more than Calgar, and I love my Ultramarines, them being the second Chapter I was introduced too and the Chapter I went years playing as I couldn't figure out how to do Blood Ravens in 4th ed. If Gabriel had been a model, or I had been able to make a fair copy?

I would have a full Blood Ravens army right now. Hell, they probably would have been my primary army for 4th and beyond. So to see the army which brought, and this isn't a stretch, thousands if not tens of thousands of people into this hobby treated with such careless disdain really annoys me.

If what Cheese had made had been what they were, I would be buying a Gabriel Angelos right now. I may never use him on tabletop, but I want Gabriel and his Daemon Hammer, if only for nostalgia. But I am not gonna support ****ty rules

[Renegade Paladin]

Dawn of War was fun, but what got me into 40k was Winter Assault. To the surprise of no one.

[Wraith]

If what Cheese had made had been what they were, I would be buying a Gabriel Angelos right now. I may never use him on tabletop, but I want Gabriel and his Daemon Hammer, if only for nostalgia. But I am not gonna support ****ty rules

No, his name is NOT "Grand Master Voldus", that's a stupid idea!

...Or is it?

[Blackhawk748]

No, his name is NOT "Grand Master Voldus", that's a stupid idea!

...Or is it?

...seeing him in anything that isn't just power armor is weird to me. Very nice model though and he would make a great Grey Knight

[LansXero]

Dawn of War was fun, but what got me into 40k was Winter Assault. To the surprise of no one.

Dark Crusade for me. That campaign was so much fun. I cant believe the Liberators and Lukas Alexander are not in the tabletop either. Or O'Kais. or Davian Thule, as himself or as a Dread.

[Hootman]

One Tomb Kings, please.
...Oh.

And in the background, my 36 glorious chariots in various stages of assembly lie abandoned...

Why you gotta make me cry like this, Cheese?



Ok, ok, deep breath. Someday we will have our revenge. In the meantime, I packed up my Grey Knights and AdMech for a change of pace and am headed to the shop to see if I can get some games in. I'll try to bring back a battle report or two, as those are always fun.

Edit: Do Grey Knights get BetterBetaBolters? On the off chance it matters?

Edit2: They do, assuming there wasn't any errata to the rule since its release. Neat. But since GK's are all about that close range deep striking and whatnot, I don't see it coming up more than once.

[LansXero]

So really nobody's stores have FB / Discord / Whatsapp groups? Its always a coinflip if you'll get games or not? That seems rather... impractical.

[Hootman]

So really nobody's stores have FB / Discord / Whatsapp groups? Its always a coinflip if you'll get games or not? That seems rather... impractical.

For me, it's more that I don't know if there will be anyone not already in a pick-up game by the time I arrive, since I'm like an hour late already and stuck in dead stop traffic.

[Blackhawk748]

And in the background, my 36 glorious chariots in various stages of assembly lie abandoned...

Why you gotta make me cry like this, Cheese?



Ok, ok, deep breath. Someday we will have our revenge.

*cough* EmpireofDustinKingsofWar*cough**hack*Thechariotsar efreakinggreat*hack

Sorry, its so dusty in this pyramid

[Wraith]

...seeing him in anything that isn't just power armor is weird to me. Very nice model though and he would make a great Grey Knight

Such is the difference between DoW and DoW3, I guess.

The problem with DoW Angelos is that, if you're starting loyal to the video game, he looks like a normal Sternguard Veteran but with Blood Angels' shoulder pads. Check out the guy in the top-left, he even has the same haircut and everything. Just take that guy, give him a captain's caped backpack and a thunderhammer and you're done. He doesn't have enough bling to be a Chapter Master

Edit2: They do, assuming there wasn't any errata to the rule since its release. Neat. But since GK's are all about that close range deep striking and whatnot, I don't see it coming up more than once.

Nope, there hasn't been an errata - GK Storm Boltors are still 'boltors'.

I have some hope that it might be possible to use Teleport Boost on Interceptors to get them out of combat in order to double the number of rapid fire/Psybolt turns they get. I haven't yet worked out the optimum order of actions, nor played a game big enough to make use of enough Interceptors, though.

[Blackhawk748]

Such is the difference between DoW and DoW3, I guess.

The problem with DoW Angelos is that, if you're starting loyal to the video game, he looks like a normal Sternguard Veteran but with Blood Angels' shoulder pads. Check out the guy in the top-left, he even has the same haircut and everything. Just take that guy, give him a captain's caped backpack and a thunderhammer and you're done. He doesn't have enough bling to be a Chapter Master

Well, yes, but DoW you could probably argue that he has Artificer armor, which would be nice. though him bing in Terminator armor does let him Deep Strike, which would be great with what Cheese made.

Also your link is broke

[LansXero]

For me, it's more that I don't know if there will be anyone not already in a pick-up game by the time I arrive, since I'm like an hour late already and stuck in dead stop traffic.

No I get it, our city is a mess and people can spend up to 60 mins in traffic on weekends.

Thats exactly why such a group is needed, so people dont go to all the trouble to then find everyone is busy. Different cultures I suppose.

As for Angelos model, its allright. Would've been great to have the whole team from DoW2 or all the leaders from DoW 1. Wonder what a DoW 3 would've looked like, too bad they never made any games past Retribution.

[Wraith]

Well, yes, but DoW you could probably argue that he has Artificer armor, which would be nice. though him bing in Terminator armor does let him Deep Strike, which would be great with what Cheese made.

Also your link is broke

He definitely should have Articifer armour - he just looks like he's wearing some far more bland. Personally I'd use Pedro Kantor's body for Angelos - he has the same amulet/braids across his chest, so it looks pretty close.

Also; Derp, thank you. Fixed now. Me internet good.

[druid91]

No I get it, our city is a mess and people can spend up to 60 mins in traffic on weekends.

Thats exactly why such a group is needed, so people dont go to all the trouble to then find everyone is busy. Different cultures I suppose.

As for Angelos model, its allright. Would've been great to have the whole team from DoW2 or all the leaders from DoW 1. Wonder what a DoW 3 would've looked like, too bad they never made any games past Retribution.

That's still an odd idea to me. Why play at a store rather than with your friends? The only reason I can see for the middleman is because you want to play with people who aren't quite your friends, but why would you want to do that with any regularity? The odd tournament or special event? Sure. But as your primary source of games....

[Artanis]

That's still an odd idea to me. Why play at a store rather than with your friends? The only reason I can see for the middleman is because you want to play with people who aren't quite your friends, but why would you want to do that with any regularity? The odd tournament or special event? Sure. But as your primary source of games....

Maybe your friends are all at the store.

[Blackhawk748]

He definitely should have Articifer armour - he just looks like he's wearing some far more bland. Personally I'd use Pedro Kantor's body for Angelos - he has the same amulet/braids across his chest, so it looks pretty close.

Also; Derp, thank you. Fixed now. Me internet good.

Ya, that would work, and he'd look solid.

Aaaah...Ya, I was gonna use that hea to make Captain Titus because I prefer him to CATO SICARIUS