Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[Cheesegear]

Anyone knows where to find a list for that Necrons guy?

If the guy setting up the BCP doesn't allow players who weren't there to read lists, there's not much you can do except wait and see if anyone from the event posts the lists.

[Sizzlefoot]

Hey, so would it be a good idea to start a separate Kill Team thread?

[Renegade Paladin]

Hey, so would it be a good idea to start a separate Kill Team thread?

Probably not. We don't really have that much traffic about it; my question started an aberrant tangent, but not enough to demand a dedicated thread. Heck, we used to have more 40k threads than we do now; there used to be a separate painting and hobby thread, but it died out years ago (and it would be hard to bring it back with the relatively recent demise of free photo sharing sites that allow hotlinking).

[peacenlove]

Anyone knows where to find a list for that Necrons guy? I know nothing about the event, but Necrons making top 2 seems amazing.

From the necron facebook group where he posted it
https://scontent.fath4-2.fna.fbcdn.n...48&oe=5D9C5CFA

[Wraith]

Anyone knows where to find a list for that Necrons guy? I know nothing about the event, but Necrons making top 2 seems amazing.

All of the Alamo GT lists are also available on IMGUR - I was personally amazed to learn that the Thousand Sons list who took 1st Place actually had Rubric Marines in it rather than 1200 points of Tzaangors. Here's the link.

[EDIT] Apparently Mathew Allee brought them along just to troll people, thinking MSU with defensive psychic powers would just be annoying... And then "accidentally" won two majors back to back. The guy is my hero, I recommend the podcast interview just for his sense of humour.

If you check on Reddit, there's a bit list of 40k events that took place this weekend, all with their top 4 lists attached. Necrons actually appear twice, in different formats, in a sea of Chaos Daemons and Guard/Knights. Full thread here:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

The second placing at #1 was a 1500pt tournament, which makes a little more sense. RP doesn't suck as much at that point level, though it still isn't great yet.

Not entirely surprised by the #2 placement with Teslammortals, Tomb Blades, Doomsday Arks and Doom Scythes. I've been seeing lists similar to that float around (although most I've seen go 3 D-Scythes and 2 DDAs, not 3 and 3 but still). Necrons, I think, aren't as completely useless as some of you seem to think. Sure, they're definitely one of the weakest armies in the game, but you still see them pop up here and there in tournaments and do well.

[Cheesegear]

Necrons, I think, aren't as completely useless as some of you seem to think.

They're exactly as useless as I think.
...Unless you're in the ITC, where castling up for 5 turns is a viable strategy because you make all of your points in the first two turns. This is the same reason why T'au can place in ITC tournaments but turn to **** in Maelstrom or even new!Eternal War Missions.

ITC isn't 40K.

Necrons are terrible.
Next.

The trick to ITC lists, and thinking "Would this be viable in Eternal War/Maelstrom?"
Why the **** does everyone want Mortars to go up in points? They're S4, AP-. That's ****! Mortars don't do anything. Ohhh... I see, you're playing ITC where the bottom level of Ruins always blocks LoS even if you can very definitely see through the windows? Ohhh... I see. You're playing in a format where the rules of the game have literally been changed to validate certain playstyles over others. WOW. META FIXED AMIRITE!?

If you aren't recognising that everything coming out of major tournaments (especially US ones) isn't going by the rulebook - let alone Chapter Approved - than you've failed in basic reading comprehension.

That's why it's so weird to people outside the ITC bubble to see Necrons place in a tournament - not a GT, but still. Everyone's experience of Necrons - by the Rulebook - is that they're pretty piss-poor at doing anything except not dying. That's not...Anything. Except in ITC where it shines. Again, see Mortars. Mortars are ****ing useless. Unless, of course, your opponent can't ever target them. Somehow invincible units that can fire back - even as badly as they do - are really, really good. Strange, that.

How the ITC works;
Can you destroy at least two units per turn?
Can you hold at least one - but preferably two - Objectives per turn?
If you answered 'yes' to both of these, you have a viable army for the ITC. The easiest way to achieve both of those things, is to castle.

How Maelstrom works; Hold these specific three Objectives this turn, and destroy as many units as possible in a single turn. It requires that your army actually be mobile and have viable combat efficiency.

I'm not totally sure how '18!Eternal War works, I've literally never played any Eternal War Missions since CA'18 came out.

ITC allows many different Factions to play (as seen by the variety of winning Factions outside major GTs), but they're all playing the same archetypal play-style. Which gets real boring after you've spotted the pattern. That's why I no longer go to ITC tournaments. They're boring as ****.

ITC doesn't fix the meta. It merely changes it to a new one - Castling, wins.

When I see tournament lists being posted, by first question is "Is it an ITC tournament?"
If the answer is 'yes', I tamp my expectations way down.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Right, I keep forgetting ITC is a thing. Yeah, two different Metas for sure. Still think that the all-Tomb Blade armies can do decently in Maelstrom though.

[bluntpencil]

They're exactly as useless as I think.
...Unless you're in the ITC, where castling up for 5 turns is a viable strategy because you make all of your points in the first two turns. This is the same reason why T'au can place in ITC tournaments but turn to **** in Maelstrom or even new!Eternal War Missions.

ITC isn't 40K.

Necrons are terrible.
Next.

The trick to ITC lists, and thinking "Would this be viable in Eternal War/Maelstrom?"
Why the **** does everyone want Mortars to go up in points? They're S4, AP-. That's ****! Mortars don't do anything. Ohhh... I see, you're playing ITC where the bottom level of Ruins always blocks LoS even if you can very definitely see through the windows? Ohhh... I see. You're playing in a format where the rules of the game have literally been changed to validate certain playstyles over others. WOW. META FIXED AMIRITE!?

If you aren't recognising that everything coming out of major tournaments (especially US ones) isn't going by the rulebook - let alone Chapter Approved - than you've failed in basic reading comprehension.

That's why it's so weird to people outside the ITC bubble to see Necrons place in a tournament - not a GT, but still. Everyone's experience of Necrons - by the Rulebook - is that they're pretty piss-poor at doing anything except not dying. That's not...Anything. Except in ITC where it shines. Again, see Mortars. Mortars are ****ing useless. Unless, of course, your opponent can't ever target them. Somehow invincible units that can fire back - even as badly as they do - are really, really good. Strange, that.

How the ITC works;
Can you destroy at least two units per turn?
Can you hold at least one - but preferably two - Objectives per turn?
If you answered 'yes' to both of these, you have a viable army for the ITC. The easiest way to achieve both of those things, is to castle.

How Maelstrom works; Hold these specific three Objectives this turn, and destroy as many units as possible in a single turn. It requires that your army actually be mobile and have viable combat efficiency.

I'm not totally sure how '18!Eternal War works, I've literally never played any Eternal War Missions since CA'18 came out.

ITC allows many different Factions to play (as seen by the variety of winning Factions outside major GTs), but they're all playing the same archetypal play-style. Which gets real boring after you've spotted the pattern. That's why I no longer go to ITC tournaments. They're boring as ****.

ITC doesn't fix the meta. It merely changes it to a new one - Castling, wins.

When I see tournament lists being posted, by first question is "Is it an ITC tournament?"
If the answer is 'yes', I tamp my expectations way down.

Fully agree on ITC, especially frickin' windows. If you want more LoS blockers, all power to you, but make sure they actually block IRL LoS, dammit. Having chest high walls not block LoS, but having massive windows block it isn't intuitive at all.

[Wraith]

Right, I keep forgetting ITC is a thing. Yeah, two different Metas for sure. Still think that the all-Tomb Blade armies can do decently in Maelstrom though.

Necrons are really bad in the format that is designed to make them bad at it, as opposed to some lists which are merely "adequate" or just "always bad in everything". In my experience they tend to be niche and a little bit of a mono-build, but what they CAN do, they do reasonably well and there is, at least, some hope for them. Sometimes.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm not totally sure how '18!Eternal War works, I've literally never played any Eternal War Missions since CA'18 came out.

It's 'hold as many objectives as you can, starting from turn 2. Kill all your opponent's units that are holding objectives.' To elaborate, most of the new Eternal War Missions give points per objective held at the start of your turn, beginning turn 2. That means you need to get to an objective, and survive holding it until your next turn.

As for Necrons? Well it depends which one you are playing. Did you get the one with 6 objectives? They are going to struggle, even if that one gives Objective Secured to everything with fly. But the ones with 3 or less are doable. Particularly stuff where the objective in the enemy DZ is worth more, since they can teleport a big blob of something tough on them.

So they can handle the new missions, but it depends on the mission.

[Renegade Paladin]

I will say this for the ITC: Being on the circuit has made our shop a lot of money. And we don't even use their format (except I'm rotating in a SINGLE ITC-style mission this time).

[Cheesegear]

I will say this for the ITC: Being on the circuit has made our shop a lot of money. And we don't even use their format (except I'm rotating in a SINGLE ITC-style mission this time).

Any organised tournament structure will almost guarantee bank.
People like competition. People like organised competition.
The only time this falls apart, is when your meta is full of ****heads.
Competition doesn't ruin tournaments.
People, do.

[Requizen]

Look, I know 7 layers of blending and highlighting will always look better, but you can't look at this and tell me Contrast paints are horrible:

Spoiler

Show

Everything other than the metals is Contrast. That's pretty darn impressive.

[LansXero]

Look, I know 7 layers of blending and highlighting will always look better, but you can't look at this and tell me Contrast paints are horrible:

Spoiler

Show

Everything other than the metals is Contrast. That's pretty darn impressive.

A close friend of mine who is super into D&D is a stomach surgeon. He is one of the first people to start painting in our store, back when we used to sell craft store acryllics worth like 1$ each (and thats retail, wholesale it was like 0.60c). He has made pretty amazing things because his eye-to-hand control is absurdly good, and has great attention to detail. He also spent forever getting them to thin properly. It doesnt make those paints any less trash though.

Im sure a skilled painter can make contrast work. But thats not what they are being advertised as. They are being advertised as ideal for first time painters and people who dont want to bother getting better. And its just not the case. Sure, its faster but you need to know what you are doing. And them being thicker and coming twith the 'you dont need to thin anymore!' tagline isnt going to help, in the numerous painting classes we've run through the years one of the hardest things to teach people is volume control. Even I get it wrong at times, sploshing too much paint where I shouldnt.

[Requizen]

A close friend of mine who is super into D&D is a stomach surgeon. He is one of the first people to start painting in our store, back when we used to sell craft store acryllics worth like 1$ each (and thats retail, wholesale it was like 0.60c). He has made pretty amazing things because his eye-to-hand control is absurdly good, and has great attention to detail. He also spent forever getting them to thin properly. It doesnt make those paints any less trash though.

Im sure a skilled painter can make contrast work. But thats not what they are being advertised as. They are being advertised as ideal for first time painters and people who dont want to bother getting better. And its just not the case. Sure, its faster but you need to know what you are doing. And them being thicker and coming twith the 'you dont need to thin anymore!' tagline isnt going to help, in the numerous painting classes we've run through the years one of the hardest things to teach people is volume control. Even I get it wrong at times, sploshing too much paint where I shouldnt.

Haha what are you trying to say here? "It's not easy enough to do with a blindfold so it's not worth it"? "It's false advertising because you can't do it with your toes"?

Obviously it's going to require some learning like anything else but according to the person who posted those pictures those are literally one coat each for skin, tail, cloth, armor, smoke, bones, pipe, and eyes. Having to figure out how much paint to put on a brush is not even close to a downside, it's way easier than learning to do multiple steps and blending. If I can get that cloth effect in one step for 30 Dark Angel robes, that's an insane amount of time saved.

[LansXero]

Haha what are you trying to say here? "It's not easy enough to do with a blindfold so it's not worth it"? "It's false advertising because you can't do it with your toes"?

Obviously it's going to require some learning like anything else but according to the person who posted those pictures those are literally one coat each for skin, tail, cloth, armor, smoke, bones, pipe, and eyes. Having to figure out how much paint to put on a brush is not even close to a downside, it's way easier than learning to do multiple steps and blending. If I can get that cloth effect in one step for 30 Dark Angel robes, that's an insane amount of time saved.

And if those were the selling points that stuck with my community, instead of "one thick coat" that would be great. People who are good at stuff tend to vastly understimate how sucky new people can be. Part of getting good at things is not thinking about that stuff, so it comes automatically and then you think its really simple and quick, but would take someone new a lot of time (and a lot of messed up minis) to get it that way.

Have they come out with a release date yet? Paint sales are likely to hurt as the date closes, since people will be waiting on the new hotness to try it out.

[Wraith]

Have they come out with a release date yet? Paint sales are likely to hurt as the date closes, since people will be waiting on the new hotness to try it out.

Nothing confirmed by GW, but popular rumour says early/mid June. It also says that Contrast paints are going to be in an 18ml pot (as opposed to the normal paints which are 24ml) and might cost something like $8 each; hopefully those are exaggerations, but this is GW we're talking about so maybe not.....

[Cheesegear]

Look, I know 7 layers of blending and highlighting will always look better, but you can't look at this and tell me Contrast paints are horrible:

So, an 'invited' (i.e; Probably pro) painter comes in, spends what is clearly more than 'one thick coat' worth of time on a model, has masterful use of brush control, and clearly pushes the paint around to get the desired effect.

I'm impressed 'cause the guy is good at painting, not at the quality of the Contrast paints.

EDIT: Judging from the robe, it just looks like every other time I've seen a pro painter use poor quality paints. It doesn't mean that the paints are good. It means that the painter is a pro.

'One. Thick. Coat.' ...Isn't that picture. That's the picture that they shell out to 'real' painters to make it seem like Contrast paints are more than they are.
i.e; Advertising to bad painters didn't get the good painters on board. Let's try something else.

[JNAProductions]

Idle question: How many AP-5 weapons are there?
And are there any AP-6?

For AP-5, I have the Volcano Cannon, the Volcano Lance, and the Culexus' Animus Speculum. (That's off memory, so I might be wrong.) Anything else?

[Ionbound]

I believe Monstrous Rending Claws's rend is -6 AP but only on a 6+ to wound roll. IDK if that counts for your purposes or not.

[JNAProductions]

I believe Monstrous Rending Claws's rend is -6 AP but only on a 6+ to wound roll. IDK if that counts for your purposes or not.

Nah, that counts.

Thank you!

[Turalisj]

Idle question: How many AP-5 weapons are there?
And are there any AP-6?

For AP-5, I have the Volcano Cannon, the Volcano Lance, and the Culexus' Animus Speculum. (That's off memory, so I might be wrong.) Anything else?

The Red Axe, a Mars specific omnissian axe for Adeptus Mechanicus, is AP-5.

[JNAProductions]

So far, I have:

AP-5
Animus Speculum (Culexus)
Volcano Lance (Knight Castellan)
Volcano Cannon (Shadowsword)
High Power Doomsday Cannon (Doomsday Ark)
Tachyon Arrow (Anrakyr the Traveler)
Deathray [If Mephrit in half range] (Doomscythe)
Heavy Gauss Cannon [If Mephrit in half range] (Heavy Destroyer)
Fusion Blasters [With Advanced Targeting System] (XV25 Stealth Suits, XV8 Crisis Suits)
Heavy Rail Rifle (XV88 Broadsides)
Grav Flux Bombard (Hellforged Leviathans, Relic Leviathans)
Lance Prism Cannon (Fire Prism)
The Red Axe (Mars Power Axe Relic)

AP-6
Monstrous Rending Claws [On 6s to wound] (Patriarch, Broodlord)
High Power Doomsday Cannon [If Mephrit in half range] (Doomscythe)

AP Infinity-Ignores Armor, but not Invulnerables
Life Drain [Melee Attacks] (Culexus)

[Yaktan]

Tau can also get AP -5 fusion blasters on Ghostkeels, Riptides, and all sorts of commanders. I even used to run my ghostkeels with them, before the codex and delicious, delicious 8 point shield generators.

[Cheesegear]

Idle question: How many AP-5 weapons are there?

How many viable targets for AP-5 are there, that wouldn't then fall back onto some kind of Invulnerable save?

This is why in order to destroy a Knight, you don't need anything more than AP-2. Or, rather, anything over -2 is a waste of points...Which is why the best weapon for killing Knights is a Knight Warden/Crusader with a Gatling Cannon that does 3 Damage per hit.
...Unless you're running Death Hex, which is amazing for this exact reason.

[LeSwordfish]

How many viable targets for AP-5 are there, that wouldn't then fall back onto some kind of Invulnerable save?

He did say it was an idle question: AP-6 doesn't even come up unless the unit's got a 2+ save and some other bonus like cover.

[bluntpencil]

He did say it was an idle question: AP-6 doesn't even come up unless the unit's got a 2+ save and some other bonus like cover.

Bullgryns with Slabshields, with any of the following active: Cover, Take Cover!, Psychic Barrier are complete nightmare to shift. Of course, if you get them down to 5+ or worse, they take the hits on the Brute Shields instead of the Slabshields. Need AP-6 and Null Zone or something, I guess.

[LansXero]

Bullgryns with Slabshields, with any of the following active: Cover, Take Cover!, Psychic Barrier are complete nightmare to shift. Of course, if you get them down to 5+ or worse, they take the hits on the Brute Shields instead of the Slabshields. Need AP-6 and Null Zone or something, I guess.

At that point just rain shots on them so they'll die by volume of 1s. T5 right? not that hard to wound.

Alternatively, Mortal Wounds for everyone.

[jguy]

Burning Blade relic from Space Marine Codex. +2 str, -5 AP, 1 damage. Replaces power sword or master crafted power sword.