Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[LansXero]

I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the Mortal Wounds rule, which creates the rare opportunity to eliminate something before it can act, which I know is your major problem with damage at end of turn).

Yeah, I was going to say, 1k sons break your action economy something fierce. Also, the book-keeping of AP vs Saves seems like it will be quite tedious.

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, I was going to say, 1k sons break your action economy something fierce. Also, the book-keeping of AP vs Saves seems like it will be quite tedious.

I don't know how Thousand Sons work, so I can't say for certain how they'll wreck the action economy. But book-keeping is easily accomplished by having a few colored dice by the unit showing the number of the various types of wounds (these get normal save, these penetrate regular armor, etc.)

[Blackhawk748]

Edit: to put it another way, the reason I don’t like what I see as an overly negative attitude to the game is because it paints GW as the enemy, either through incompetence or maliciousness. I don’t think this is true beyond the level it is true of any capitalist company: I believe they want the game to be the best it can be. So I try to understand the way they work and the reasons they do what they do before applying criticism, and takes a stance that presupposes they want to improve things.

And that's why Drasuis thinks you're a bit naive, and on that point, I agree with him. Frankly, I don't think they care all that much, because they've been "Too Big to Fail" for quite a while and they are very comfortable on their perch up there thank you very much. They keep saying that they're listening, except we've seen them delete criticism off of their Facebook, which is the only way to contact them with any guarantee that they see it.

Maybe its because I play KoW and hang out on the Mantic Forums, which are actually populated by the game designers and Rule Committee and so I see what a game design team actually trying is, but GW, to me anyway, just looks like they go through the motions to make it seem like they are doing something.

And as I said earlier, even if they had to design a model based off of what it looks like, that only dictates his wargear, not his other abilities. (I mean, do Reivers look stealthy to anyone?) It's just that they care so little about rules design they probably don't even really think about half of it and just go "this sounds good". This is exacerbated by the fact that several of us have actually homebrewed things that were so much better than what GW did, and did it in a few hours at worst. And I'm just some schmuck in my house

[LeSwordfish]

Would be pretty easy to hack in the old binary save/no save system too. AP-2 is old AP3, so you just need to track "Wounds" and "Saves to make" per unit.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't know how Thousand Sons work, so I can't say for certain how they'll wreck the action economy. But book-keeping is easily accomplished by having a few colored dice by the unit showing the number of the various types of wounds (these get normal save, these penetrate regular armor, etc.)

They chuck out more Smite's than they do shots.

[Mystic Muse]

They chuck out more Smite's than they do shots.

This is my problem with my current Thousand Sons list. I am considering dipping into a different faction for sone shooting, so when the phase comes around I don't just go "Shooting phase. Aaaand shooting done."

I've heard good things about Havocs?

[LansXero]

They chuck out more Smite's than they do shots.

More importantly, per new Apoc. rules psychic powers are resolved before orders are even given out. Unless they replicate the Command Asset mechanic (which has issues of its own) that takes a huge cut into 'you go I go'.

[Blackhawk748]

This is my problem with my current Thousand Sons list. I am considering dipping into a different faction for sone shooting, so when the phase comes around I don't just go "Shooting phase. Aaaand shooting done."

I've heard good things about Havocs?

Havocs are Havocs, they do good work from what I recall. I can't remember if Obliterators are worth it or not anymore.

More importantly, per new Apoc. rules psychic powers are resolved before orders are even given out. Unless they replicate the Command Asset mechanic (which has issues of its own) that takes a huge cut into 'you go I go'.

Wouldn't the easy solution just be to have Psychic powers be resolved in the relevant Phase? Shooting powers in Shooting, Movement in Movement etc?

[LansXero]

Wouldn't the easy solution just be to have Psychic powers be resolved in the relevant Phase? Shooting powers in Shooting, Movement in Movement etc?

There are no 'phases' in Apoc, though. If they're cribbing the orders system as well, you'd need a way to include 'cast a psychic power' in the existing orders. Its also wonky for things like the shoot-and-move strat, the AM orders, etc. Which is par for the course when you shoehorn one thing into another. Not like it unfixable, but it takes more work than just a simple switching of unit order.

[Avaris]

Yeah, I was going to say, 1k sons break your action economy something fierce. Also, the book-keeping of AP vs Saves seems like it will be quite tedious.

Yeah, it’s very much feature not a bug, but not sure if it would be overpowered. I figure even TS or GK won’t throw out enough mortal wounds to completely ruin things, but makes an interesting twist on psychic powers which makes them relevant.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, it’s very much feature not a bug, but not sure if it would be overpowered. I figure even TS or GK won’t throw out enough mortal wounds to completely ruin things, but makes an interesting twist on psychic powers which makes them relevant.

Considering every TSons unit will be throwing smits? They very well may

[Avaris]

There are no 'phases' in Apoc, though. If they're cribbing the orders system as well, you'd need a way to include 'cast a psychic power' in the existing orders. Its also wonky for things like the shoot-and-move strat, the AM orders, etc. Which is par for the course when you shoehorn one thing into another. Not like it unfixable, but it takes more work than just a simple switching of unit order.

We started off cribbing the orders and phases from Apocalypse, but now we’ve played it it feels unnecessary. I think the best approach is to follow the 40k system as far as possible, with just the wound change and the alternating activations. So instead of doing your move/psychic/shooting/charge/combat for your entire army at once, you do it for a single unit, then your opponent does a unit, and so on. And while doing so you don’t make any saving throws, you just note number of wounds, AP and damage. This wasn’t too much hassle at 1000pts, I suspect that once you get to 2000 it would be, but that’s the level Apocalypse becomes viable.

[LansXero]

We started off cribbing the orders and phases from Apocalypse, but now we’ve played it it feels unnecessary. I think the best approach is to follow the 40k system as far as possible, with just the wound change and the alternating activations. So instead of doing your move/psychic/shooting/charge/combat for your entire army at once, you do it for a single unit, then your opponent does a unit, and so on. And while doing so you don’t make any saving throws, you just note number of wounds, AP and damage. This wasn’t too much hassle at 1000pts, I suspect that once you get to 2000 it would be, but that’s the level Apocalypse becomes viable.

So we do psychic phase alternatively, fair enough not much changes if you play marines / guard. 1k Sons though? they get to take whole units out of combat, effectively making it so you replace 'shooting phase alpha strike' with 'psychic phase alpha strike'. Also, since mortals dont bother with saves, just remove models, stuff like hellfire rounds / orbital bombardment / vindicares are boosted. Things like the Primaris banner and the crimson fist strat work all wonky, and it makes 'until your next turn' stuff less useful, since now your opponent gets to act before it refreshes.

It could work as homebrew for limited models / armies as long as its tailored to those alone, but as a general system it would require combing over all codices and rules and working on each of them.

[Mystic Muse]

Don't know how reliable this is, though the local player who gets these leaks hasn't been wrong yet.

Guilliman's aura is getting nerfed so wound rolls only reroll 1s instead of all failed wounds.

Hand of Dominion is going up 1 in damage.

His points cost is going down to 330.

[Forum Explorer]

Don't know how reliable this is, though the local player who gets these leaks hasn't been wrong yet.

Guilliman's aura is getting nerfed so wound rolls only reroll 1s instead of all failed wounds.

Hand of Dominion is going up 1 in damage.

His points cost is going down to 330.

Well thank goodness, that will actually go a long way to balancing him.

Though is that shooting as well as melee or just melee?

[Blackhawk748]

Don't know how reliable this is, though the local player who gets these leaks hasn't been wrong yet.

Guilliman's aura is getting nerfed so wound rolls only reroll 1s instead of all failed wounds.

Hand of Dominion is going up 1 in damage.

His points cost is going down to 330.

Ow. At least they are dropping his point costs, because good lord was he too much

[Mystic Muse]

Well thank goodness, that will actually go a long way to balancing him.

Though is that shooting as well as melee or just melee?

"XIII primarch: You can reroll hit rolls for attacks made by friendly ultramarines models while their units are within 6" of this model. Reroll wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly Ultramarines units while their units are within 6" of this model."

[LansXero]

THere is an image to go with the leak, so it seems confirmed.

[Drasius]

Yeah, I was going to say, 1k sons break your action economy something fierce. Also, the book-keeping of AP vs Saves seems like it will be quite tedious.

Agreed.

I don't know how Thousand Sons work, so I can't say for certain how they'll wreck the action economy. But book-keeping is easily accomplished by having a few colored dice by the unit showing the number of the various types of wounds (these get normal save, these penetrate regular armor, etc.)

Thousand Sons bring Ahriman, 2-3 Daemon Princes, sometimes a Sorceror in terminator armour, accasionally a Sorc on disk, 50-90 Tzaangors, maybe a Shaman and some Enlightened/Skyfires, then fill gaps with allies. Each HQ has regular smite plus all the usual other assortment of mortal wound powers. If you're casual enough to bring Rubricae or Scarab Occult, they get mini smites too. It wouldn't be unthinkable for them to delete units via smite spam and going through the half dozen other mortal wound powers before they can resolve their damage pretty regularly.

This is my problem with my current Thousand Sons list. I am considering dipping into a different faction for sone shooting, so when the phase comes around I don't just go "Shooting phase. Aaaand shooting done."

I've heard good things about Havocs?

Havoks went to T5 and got a new gun that statistically outperforms pretty much everything else.

Havocs are Havocs, they do good work from what I recall. I can't remember if Obliterators are worth it or not anymore.

Oblits have flip flopped between really bad and really good with the half a dozen rules changes they had, but right now (IIRC) they're pretty meh since you can't really get enough shooting for their cost and while the durability doesn't matter as much when your damage output is relatively low.

Yeah, it’s very much feature not a bug, but not sure if it would be overpowered. I figure even TS or GK won’t throw out enough mortal wounds to completely ruin things, but makes an interesting twist on psychic powers which makes them relevant.

Maybe, maybe not, but you might be surprised when one of them comes along and ruins what you thought was a working system. Just be open about the possibility of having psy powers not resolve until the end with everything else, since almost all other mortal wound sources are limited either in stratagems or number of weapons.

[JNAProductions]

Does anyone have a source or link to the rules leaks? Like, the stuff about G-Man and all that?

[Forum Explorer]

"XIII primarch: You can reroll hit rolls for attacks made by friendly ultramarines models while their units are within 6" of this model. Reroll wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly Ultramarines units while their units are within 6" of this model."

Sorry, I mean the Hand of Dominion's damage. IIRC, it's both a gun and a melee weapon.

[Mystic Muse]

Sorry, I mean the Hand of Dominion's damage. IIRC, it's both a gun and a melee weapon.

Ah, yes, sorry.

Gun is the same, melee is 4 damage instead of 3, no other changes to either.

[Cheesegear]

Positive reinforcement.

Big Corporations don't need my 'good vibes'.

Also, a rules studio is much more likely to be incentivised to improve things if they feel they can succeed, rather than being told everything they do is terrible. Build up, don't tear down.

A rules studio isn't a bunch of children who don't know what they're doing. A rules studio is a bunch of grown adults doing a job that they're being paid to do. 'Positive reinforcement' is their team leader's job. Our job, as consumers, is to demand the product we want, not to give products that we pay money for a compliment sandwich.

The reason I came back to the hobby is because I genuinely believe that GW is finally starting on that route. They've openly said they made mistakes with the rollout of AoS for example: admitting a mistake like that would be unthinkable a decade ago.

...Because back then the internet wasn't as big as it was now, which means there was far, far, far less accountability.
In [current year], you must hold yourself accountable, or a story will leak anyway, and then you're done. It's basic PR. Get ahead of any story. Admit to criticisms and mistakes. Just, whatever you do, do not offer solutions. Say 'We're listening.' and nothing else. If you know what you're doing, your Company's actions might speak better than any press release ever could.

When dealing damage, stop at the point you would normally make saving throws and note down the number of wounds, their AP and amount of damage. Roll all saves for a unit at once as the first step of the morale phase, after all units have activated

This is the part where you **** up. You're making it so that actions don't have consequences, and so you're making it so alternating activations don't mean anything. I thought we went over this?

There is nothing wrong with alternating activations. There is something wrong with shunting Damage to the end of the turn.

Moving damage to the end of turn is really good for creating a moment of tension, which we enjoy.

But it doesn't create a tactical wargame.
But since it's your homebrew, you can do whatever you want and I can't stop you.

though I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the Mortal Wounds rule

As previously stated, Thousand Sons ruin your game.

Thousand Sons bring Ahriman, 2-3 Daemon Princes, sometimes a Sorceror in terminator armour, accasionally a Sorc on disk, 50-90 Tzaangors, maybe a Shaman and some Enlightened/Skyfires, then fill gaps with allies.

Battalion #1
Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince with Wings

Tzaangors
Tzaangors
Tzaangors

Tzaangor Shaman
Tzaangor Shaman
Tzaangor Shaman

Battalion #2
Daemon Prince with Wings
Daemon Prince with Wings

Tzaangors
Tzaangors
Tzaangors

Supreme Command
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc

This list ruins people. No allies needed.

[Mystic Muse]

Battalion #1
Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince with Wings

Tzaangors
Tzaangors
Tzaangors

Tzaangor Shaman
Tzaangor Shaman
Tzaangor Shaman

Battalion #2
Daemon Prince with Wings
Daemon Prince with Wings

Tzaangors
Tzaangors
Tzaangors

Supreme Command
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc

This list ruins people. No allies needed.

Pretty much the exact list I built, minus the Tzaangor Shamans. And even that's only because I needed to steal some discs for the exalted sorcerers. Gonna Get some 'shamans' by getting a box of enlightened.

Because I could get 3 for $105, or 3 for $40.

Hmm, which of these seems more reasonable...

(I also have Magnus, but he's a thing I strictly take if I've asked my opponent ahead of time.)

[Drasius]

Battalion #1
Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince with Wings

Tzaangors
Tzaangors
Tzaangors

Tzaangor Shaman
Tzaangor Shaman
Tzaangor Shaman

Battalion #2
Daemon Prince with Wings
Daemon Prince with Wings

Tzaangors
Tzaangors
Tzaangors

Supreme Command
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc

This list ruins people. No allies needed.

Just out of interest, what weapons are the DP's rocking? If memory serves, double talon was the way to go for a while, has anything changed there? Feels like the lack of anti-tank would give you a bit of a lacklustre T1, but I guess having all 10 casters with a 12" move is enough to smite anything you need dead to death without too much trouble barring extreme chaff (though maximum chaff is meta). The triple Shaman feels a bit overdone though, since 1 Shaman is almost 13 Tzaangors, but then, who the hell wants to build and paint the 80+ that are already in the list, let alone any more? Spam gonna spam though I guess.

[Cheesegear]

Just out of interest, what weapons are the DP's rocking?

Double Talons. More attacks equals more better.

Feels like the lack of anti-tank would give you a bit of a lacklustre T1

It depends how your opponent positions their models.
But outputting ~30 Mortal Wounds per turn is pretty hard anti-tank.

The triple Shaman feels a bit overdone though, since 1 Shaman is almost 13 Tzaangors

1 Shaman is also +D3 Mortal Wounds.

---

And I'm just some schmuck in my house

I forget who brought it up, but, let's design Lysander.

1. What's the model look like? Okay, it's a guy with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Pretty boring, TBH.
2. What's our design philosophy? That's easy; Don't. Be. ****. If you finish the redesign, and you ask yourself "Is it ****?", and the answer is 'Yes', start again.

Okay. The model isn't helpful. But what's Lysander about?

1. He's The Milky Way's Best Street Fighter.
2. He can OHKO anything. When he hits you with the Serious Fist of Dorn, you're done.
3. Originally thought to be the second-coming of Dorn. He can take any hit you dish out. The angrier he gets, the stronger he gets.
4. Teleporting is literally his favourite. Even after watching his mentor get teleported into a wall. Lysander gives no ****s.
5. Reckless, but not stupid.
6. Hates Chaos. A lot. No, more than that.

Pre-Existing Issues:

1. Imperial Fists Ignore Cover. Lysander has no ranged weapons.
2. Imperial Fists' Warlord Trait means Fists hugging Cover ignore AP-1. Lysander does not hug Cover... Ever.

---

1. Give Lysander 7 Wounds. This allows him to take D6 damage weapons to the face, and keep trucking. He's no tougher than a normal Marine, so T5 is out. I don't want to give him Ignore Wounds on top of his 3+ Invulnerable, because that seems too good, and I definitely don't want to give him 'Half Damage' because that's Calgar's thing. Point is, Lysander takes damage the same as any other Marine. What he doesn't do, is die. So, while his existing 6 Wounds is good, 7 is better.

2. The Fist of Dorn. Okay, we want it to wound non-Vehicles and non-Monsters on a 2+. S10 does that. AP-3, however, does not break you in half. So straight off the bat, we're going to make the Fist of Dorn AP-5, and 4 Damage. That should drop most Characters with Lysander's 4 Attacks. I mean, it'll kill nerds. But models with more than 4 Wounds and a decent Invulnerable +/- Ignore Wounds (e.g; Most Characters) probably wont die. So let's cave some heads:

Brutal Strike: If a non-<Vehicle> model is wounded by Fist of Dorn and isn't destroyed, roll a D6. On a 4+ that model takes an additional Mortal Wound.
Probably might make it 5+, this would require playtesting. But even then, if two attacks connect, doing 8 Damage with 50% +1 Mortal is "Do you have 9 or less wounds? You're dead." So I'm fine with it. The intent is that Lysander should be able to drop 8-Wound Characters in a single round of combat.

3. Teleport Strike isn't good enough. Turn 2 is too slow. Even then, 9" Charges are so unreliable it's not even funny:

Unending Crusade: Captain Lysander and up to one <Imperial Fists Terminator> unit when deploying via Teleport Strike may set up anywhere more than 7" away from enemy models, the additional unit must be placed within 3" of Captain Lysander. In addition, <Imperial Fists Terminators> within 6" of Captain Lysander may re-roll Charges against <Heretic Astartes> units.

4. Icon of Obstinancy... First. Morale tests are basically meaningless to Space Marines, and second, Lysander is a dog**** commander, and he even says so himself. In a real Chapter, Lysander would be the Chapter Champion. However, due to circumstance and politics, he ended up as 1st Captain, which is a job he's terrible at. "You understand that if you make me Chapter Master, this Chapter gets run into the ground? Hell no. I'm not being Chapter Master. My pride is not so great that I would accept an honour that destroys us all." There is no way he hands out +1 Leadership. If I had my way, he probably wouldn't even hand out rr1 to anyone except himself. But he is a Captain, so I'll let it slide. But I'm also open to losing Rites of Battle. He shouldn't be a force multiplier. He should be a one-man wrecking crew. But I do like the name of the ability, so let's keep it:

Everytime Captain Lysander loses a wound, he gains an extra attack.

Warlord Trait: The Imperium's Sword (Re-roll Charges and +1 attack in the turn he charges.)

Points Cost: 200

Write Time: ~1 hour.

[LeSwordfish]

Sounds pretty unfun to fight against. Comes down, charges, free re-roll, +1 attack, can use my Command Point re-roll on those terminators, and murders something of mine. Hooray... fun. Maybe dealing +1 mortal wound is just over-design: you're thinking more about nine-wound things than you need to, you could take that whole rule out and not mind much. Similarly, what cares about AP-5 that doesn't already have an invulnerable? Is Lysander's status as a wierd beserker canon, because that's the vibe i'm getting from "lose wounds to gain attacks", and since he's got so many wounds he'll be running around with eight four-damage attacks soon.

Basically "Don't be ****" is a fine game design rule but if it's your only rule you just write wierd wishlisty stuff like this and every army in the game has "nuke" options and the game comes down to who gets their nukes into position first. Wraithknights weren't ****, and look what happened there.

[Avaris]

Big Corporations don't need my 'good vibes'.

A rules studio isn't a bunch of children who don't know what they're doing. A rules studio is a bunch of grown adults doing a job that they're being paid to do. 'Positive reinforcement' is their team leader's job. Our job, as consumers, is to demand the product we want, not to give products that we pay money for a compliment sandwich.

I think our main difference is that I’m thinking of the individual studio members and how soul destroying it would be for them to see something they have spent effort on, in a creative career which is entirely about allowing people to have fun, be the subject of such routine vitriol wherever they look online. They’ll want to know what they can do better, but if everything they do is met with complaints they won’t get the positive reinforcement from what has worked.

You’re right that corporate GW doesn’t need positive reinforcement. But corporate GW isn’t the person reading the feedback.

INB4 ‘it’s the internet, they should just toughen up’: just because everyone acts in a certain way doesn’t mean it’s right. And if we have this attitude we’ll just have the ‘tough’ people who don’t care about what other people are saying left, and they won’t listen to it, so complaining won’t achieve anything. The people we want to hear feedback are those who care enough about it to do something about it, and if you care about something you’ll want positive feedback alongside the negative feedback, otherwise you’ll burn out and quit, leaving it just to the tough people who don’t care.

This is the part where you **** up. You're making it so that actions don't have consequences, and so you're making it so alternating activations don't mean anything. I thought we went over this?

There is nothing wrong with alternating activations. There is something wrong with shunting Damage to the end of the turn.

I did say you’d hate it! And, as before, I can confidently say you’re wrong IMO. For example, with damage at end of turn you can’t clear someone off objectives so easily, so it matters more who gets there first. In our most recent game I couldn’t reach an objective, but by having initiative I was able to lock the enemy unit who would have claimed it down, preventing them from getting it as well. It also matters for LoS: by moving units before the opponent has shot them I can prevent them being shot at all.

You’re right that it wouldn’t matter if we did the entire movement phase, then the entire shooting phase etc, but that’s not what we’re doing. Also, I agree that having some ability to do damage in turn is an interesting tactical dimension, hence the mortal wounds thing. As said, smite spam is a risk, but hopefully manageable by smites always hitting the closest unit. Facing an enemy with a lot of psychic powers would certainly be a scary prospect under this system, but I feel that’s working as intended. It’s the sort of thing that may need tweaking though.

[Cheesegear]

Sounds pretty unfun to fight against. Comes down, charges, free re-roll, +1 attack, can use my Command Point re-roll on those terminators, and murders something of mine. Hooray... fun.

That's exactly what he used to do.

Similarly, what cares about AP-5 that doesn't already have an invulnerable?

Centurions. But that's literally the only meta-relevant example I have.

Is Lysander's status as a wierd beserker canon

Yes.

and since he's got so many wounds he'll be running around with eight four-damage attacks soon.

That's why I didn't give him Ignore Wounds or half damage. You drop him fast, or you ignore him. Same as any other beatstick your opponent has.

You could drop that rule, keep him at 150, and done. That's the rule that I think make him most OP, and yes, it's also the rule I'm most unhappy with.
Cool. I consulted with one other person and now he's more friendly, and yet he's still not useless.

They’ll want to know what they can do better, but if everything they do is met with complaints they won’t get the positive reinforcement from what has worked.

What works is what sells. If it doesn't sell, it didn't work. If you're getting complaints about it, it's not working.
If you're not getting complaints, then it's working.

If you don't make something that's terrible, you don't get complaints. No-one cares when you do your job correctly, because that's literally your job. You don't get praise for doing minimum effort. At least, not in my experience. Either I've had terrible bosses my entire working life. Or you and I have very different expectations of what's expected of us when we do a job we're being paid to do.

You’re right that corporate GW doesn’t need positive reinforcement. But corporate GW isn’t the person reading the feedback.

You're right. The marketing and social media team is.

INB4 ‘it’s the internet, they should just toughen up’

I wasn't going to say that.

You are hired by a company to design something that sells units.
You output a product that said company is going to charge money for.
Not a little bit of money either, but an exorbitant amount of money.

If you can't write a rule that sells units, you are failing at your job. The end.

Change the things people complain about.
If they're not complaining, don't change it.

If people complain about something, but it sells units anyway (...casuals!!! *shakes fist*)... The shareholders take precedence.

And if we have this attitude we’ll just have the ‘tough’ people who don’t care about what other people are saying left, and they won’t listen to it, so complaining won’t achieve anything.

No. What you'll have, is people who took complaints on board and improved their product.
People who don't listen to feedback, and don't improve their product, get fired.

The people we want to hear feedback are those who care enough about it to do something about it

The shareholders?

[Drasius]

I forget who brought it up, but, let's design Lysander.

1. What's the model look like? Okay, it's a guy with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Pretty boring, TBH.
2. What's our design philosophy? That's easy; Don't. Be. ****. If you finish the redesign, and you ask yourself "Is it ****?", and the answer is 'Yes', start again.

Okay. The model isn't helpful. But what's Lysander about?

1. He's The Milky Way's Best Street Fighter.
2. He can OHKO anything. When he hits you with the Serious Fist of Dorn, you're done.
3. Originally thought to be the second-coming of Dorn. He can take any hit you dish out. The angrier he gets, the stronger he gets.
4. Teleporting is literally his favourite. Even after watching his mentor get teleported into a wall. Lysander gives no ****s.
5. Reckless, but not stupid.
6. Hates Chaos. A lot. No, more than that.

Pre-Existing Issues:

1. Imperial Fists Ignore Cover. Lysander has no ranged weapons.
2. Imperial Fists' Warlord Trait means Fists hugging Cover ignore AP-1. Lysander does not hug Cover... Ever.

---

1. Give Lysander 7 Wounds. This allows him to take D6 damage weapons to the face, and keep trucking. He's no tougher than a normal Marine, so T5 is out. I don't want to give him Ignore Wounds on top of his 3+ Invulnerable, because that seems too good, and I definitely don't want to give him 'Half Damage' because that's Calgar's thing. Point is, Lysander takes damage the same as any other Marine. What he doesn't do, is die. So, while his existing 6 Wounds is good, 7 is better.

2. The Fist of Dorn. Okay, we want it to wound non-Vehicles and non-Monsters on a 2+. S10 does that. AP-3, however, does not break you in half. So straight off the bat, we're going to make the Fist of Dorn AP-5, and 4 Damage. That should drop most Characters with Lysander's 4 Attacks. I mean, it'll kill nerds. But models with more than 4 Wounds and a decent Invulnerable +/- Ignore Wounds (e.g; Most Characters) probably wont die. So let's cave some heads:

Brutal Strike: If a non-<Vehicle> model is wounded by Fist of Dorn and isn't destroyed, roll a D6. On a 4+ that model takes an additional Mortal Wound.
Probably might make it 5+, this would require playtesting. But even then, if two attacks connect, doing 8 Damage with 50% +1 Mortal is "Do you have 9 or less wounds? You're dead." So I'm fine with it. The intent is that Lysander should be able to drop 8-Wound Characters in a single round of combat.

3. Teleport Strike isn't good enough. Turn 2 is too slow. Even then, 9" Charges are so unreliable it's not even funny:

Unending Crusade: Captain Lysander and up to one <Imperial Fists Terminator> unit when deploying via Teleport Strike may set up anywhere more than 7" away from enemy models, the additional unit must be placed within 3" of Captain Lysander. In addition, <Imperial Fists Terminators> within 6" of Captain Lysander may re-roll Charges against <Heretic Astartes> units.

4. Icon of Obstinancy... First. Morale tests are basically meaningless to Space Marines, and second, Lysander is a dog**** commander, and he even says so himself. In a real Chapter, Lysander would be the Chapter Champion. However, due to circumstance and politics, he ended up as 1st Captain, which is a job he's terrible at. "You understand that if you make me Chapter Master, this Chapter gets run into the ground? Hell no. I'm not being Chapter Master. My pride is not so great that I would accept an honour that destroys us all." There is no way he hands out +1 Leadership. If I had my way, he probably wouldn't even hand out rr1 to anyone except himself. But he is a Captain, so I'll let it slide. But I'm also open to losing Rites of Battle. He shouldn't be a force multiplier. He should be a one-man wrecking crew. But I do like the name of the ability, so let's keep it:

Everytime Captain Lysander loses a wound, he gains an extra attack.

Warlord Trait: The Imperium's Sword (Re-roll Charges and +1 attack in the turn he charges.)

Points Cost: 200

Write Time: ~1 hour.

This is the second or third time you've given your faction rediculously OP fan versions Cheese. You're great and a wealth of knowledge, but bugger me, you can't design a balanced unit for ****.

1. +1 wound? Yeah, I can totally see that. Fits the backstory and is a reasonable buff with solid gameplay advantages as mentioned about him not dropping to d6 weapons.

2. Relic weapons should be better than the regular version in 1-2 ways. The fist of Dorn already has no to-hit penalty and is Str +6 instead of Str x2. Now you want to add more damage and 2 more points of AP? No, just no. Then you want to hand out mortal wounds as well? **** no. What you've statted out here is basically the Emperor's sword, except your hammer has more str, more AP and more mortal wounds. No, seriously, go check out Guilliman's entry.

Let's do some math hammer since 8th is pretty convinient for that. An unwounded Dorn is 71.9% as killy as Roboute Guilliman against T4 3++ models (~4.8 wounds per rcombat round vs ~6.71) and 47% more killy than Abbadon (~4.8 vs ~3.3). An angry Dorn on 1W is 68.5% killier compared to Roboute Guilliman (~11.3 vs ~5.2) and 239% killier than Abby (~11.3 vs ~3.3). Once Lysander cops just 2 wounds, he's got more damage output than a Primarch with the sword of the Emperor of Mankind. He's not Sigismund mate, you can't justify that sort of hilariously over the top damage output. It gets worse when you consider T5 models (why is he better at beating up stronger opponents than a Primarch or the BBEG of the setting?) or stuff with no invulnerable (but then, that's a small list and apart from IK characters, mostly irrelevant).

Gets even worse against T8 stuff, since he's wounding on 3's while everyone else is down to 4's, plus he's doing more damage due to 4 base and his new and improved -5AP means no saves at all. Emperor forbid when he's actually wounded and has more than double the number of attacks.

3. So, said combat monster with no equal gets to basically deploy into combat with his retinue of meatshields so you can't ever shoot him before he makes combat? Bzzzzt, no.

4. Here's a token ability that doesn't mean anything, that you're offering to sacrifice, but then decide not to anyway. Celestine's tears, it just doesn't stop with you.

Oh, and let's just give him more attacks in case anything does ever actually survive to hurt him.

The warlord trait change I can probably get behind, 'cause it's a boost only to him which is fitting with the nature of the character and the need to get him into combat to achieve anything.

Took 1 hour to design? Yeah, it shows. "I want him to not die and to be better than everyone else in combat and to run real fast and he doesn't afraid of anything!". Go back to the drawing board Cheese, you've missed the mark by quite a long way.