Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[Drasius]

How to fix terminators: Give them reroll saves against anything with AP0 and an ability that says enemy units can't Objective Secured within 6" of them. And maybe an extra wound or something.

What hurts termies is mid str mid AP, so being immune to lasguns and bolters isn't going to matter much, especially since -1 and -2 AP is the meta. Denying ObSec within 6" doesn't help them since they're expensive models in a horde meta so they can't take anything on their own and marines could have just gotten more scouts for the same points and more CP to just have more ObSec bodies.

Wound bloat certainly wouldn't hurt them, but can you really justify them having 2W over a marine? It's bad enough that Paladin's get it, though at least there's precedent for that.

In 30K, I believe Terminators have ObSec. Then again, I haven't even glanced at 30K rules in years. So maybe it was a special way you had to build your army.

IIRC, they all score, but you need a specific rite (pride of the legion) to have 'em as compulsary troops.

[JNAProductions]

Bring back the classic "4+ save on 2d6 instead of 1d6" terminator rules perhaps?

I swing with 30 buffed Plaguebearers at your Terminators.
That's 25 or so wounds, with enough hit and wound buffs.

Roll 25 saves on 2d6. One at a time.

[Turalisj]

I swing with 30 buffed Plaguebearers at your Terminators.
That's 25 or so wounds, with enough hit and wound buffs.

Roll 25 saves on 2d6. One at a time.

Not much different than one wound models with FnP getting hit by multi damage attacks.

[lord_khaine]

Roll 25 saves on 2d6. One at a time.

Why one at the time?
That should easily be fixed with colored/numbered dice.

[JNAProductions]

Not much different than one wound models with FnP getting hit by multi damage attacks.

Not really.

If my Plaguebearers take 20 unsaved D2 wounds, I can do this:

Roll 20 dice. Remove any 4s or less.
Reroll all the 5+s. Remove any 4s or less again.
If I get three 5+s on my reroll, I save 3/20 models.

Since you have to ADD the 2d6 together, you CANNOT do that.

Why one at the time?
That should easily be fixed with colored/numbered dice.

Do you have 25 sets of different colored d6s?

[Drasius]

Bring back the classic "4+ save on 2d6 instead of 1d6" terminator rules perhaps?

No. The game has well and truely moved on from being able to roll saves individually and again, it's not so much their durability that's the problem (though plasma is common enough that should termies ever become a thing, they'll get slapped down pretty quick), it's that they're slow as dirt in a game all about speed and that they have very limited output in a game all about clogging the board with chaff.

Remember when Cheese posted his list of what makes a unit good? I do (though it took me far too long to find the damn thing - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=833). Terminators manage to tag a single thing on there - they have a 5++, but unfortunately, they rarely use it. Everything is a big fat fail.

[Manticoran]

Could we let them deep strike multiple times?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

That would be my solution, play up their teleport abilities!

[Wraith]

That feels more like a stratagem than an ability. Grey Knights already have something similar for Interceptors, so we're back to making Terminators into Jump Infantry But Better.

[Cheesegear]

Remember when Cheese posted his list of what makes a unit good? I do (though it took me far too long to find the damn thing - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=833). Terminators manage to tag a single thing on there - they have a 5++, but unfortunately, they rarely use it. Everything is a big fat fail.

There are two Terminator units in the game worth taking: Blightlord Terminators and a far, far, far second, GK Paladins (after the huge point drop, of course). These are the exceptions that prove why all other Terminators are terrible.

The other, are Aquilon Terminators. But, being Forge World, they're OP as ****.

[Manticoran]

There are two Terminator units in the game worth taking: Blightlord Terminators and a far, far, far second, GK Paladins (after the huge point drop, of course). These are the exceptions that prove why all other Terminators are terrible.

The other, are Aquilon Terminators. But, being Forge World, they're OP as ****.

So then what makes those good?

[Turalisj]

They move 6", hit on 2s, are tough 5 strength 5 with 4 wounds each and a 2+/5++. You can give them some variation in load out, but the most popular is the gauntlets and destructor. Gauntlets are power fists with no penalty to hit and the destructor is 18" assault 2 strength 5 ap-3 damage 3 with gets hot. Oh, and they have 4 swings each.

[Manticoran]

They move 6", hit on 2s, are tough 5 strength 5 with 4 wounds each and a 2+/5++. You can give them some variation in load out, but the most popular is the gauntlets and destructor. Gauntlets are power fists with no penalty to hit and the destructor is 18" assault 2 strength 5 ap-3 damage 3 with gets hot. Oh, and they have 4 swings each.

Ok, and the other two that aren't just FW level broken?

[Grim Portent]

Ok, and the other two that aren't just FW level broken?

Deathshroud have T5 and a 5+++ and access to the flail of corruption, which is frankly an amazing melee weapon in a horde game. Only 4" movement mind you.

Paladins I'm less familiar with beyond them having +1 wound over other terminators. Been a few editions since anyone around my area bothered with Grey Knights.

[Turalisj]

Paladins have a 2+/5++, 3 wounds and 3 attacks, are all psykers, the paragon hits on a 2+, everyone has a storm bolter, only a 5" move though and they're still just GK.

[Cheesegear]

So then what makes those good?

Blightlords are T5, with Ignore Wounds (5+). S5, AP-2 as standard, they have +2 to wound and do additional Mortals on a 5+ (including the +2 to wound), whilst also re-rolling to wound.

GK Paladins can be outfitted with Halberds for free, or Hammers for points. Since they're Grey Knights, they can be Sanctuary'd (add Warding Staves to suit), and then Gate'd across the board which means their movement is irrelavent. Then, they add Hammerhand to themselves. They're now rocking the equivalent of Thunder Hammers without paying 13 points each. As <Astartes>, they also have the potential to be Veil of Time'd*, just in case. Unlike all other Terminators - except Raven Guard - GK Paladins can realistically make Charges on Turn 1 without being subject to needless danger - like Raven Guard do - albeit it takes some doing. That being said, if they do fail their Charge (with a re-roll), at least they're still Grey Knights and have hopefully Psybolt Ammo'd something good.
(But even without good weapons and strong GK Psychic Powers, they have 3 Wounds and 3 Attacks, which automatically makes them better than most)

Deathshroud are fine on paper. Except not really. Their squad maxes out at 3, and they're 52 Points each. I know 'max squad size' isn't on the list (neither is shots-per-point or Damage-per-point). But, I figured it as a given that when people make Death Stars they shoot for having the most models in the unit as possible, and 3, isn't it.

Pretty sure Wolf Guard Terminators are also good when combined with Wulfen. But, considering the entire Codex revolves around Wulfen, that's not saying much.

*For now. I wonder if GW had the insight to change it. That being said, GKs also have access to First to the Fray which is incredibly good, and also GW is handing out +1 Attack to all Astartes models. So now Paladins will have 4 Attacks.

EDIT:
Models in Drop Pods are not counted for the purposes of Tactical Reserves. That means you don't have to half your army on the board (points or PR, doesn't matter), and you can come down on Turn 1.
This is not a Stratagem. It's all Drop Pods. All the time.

Grey Knight players: "Why is it so cold..."

[Turalisj]

I'm seriously hoping for a new codex for GK.

[Forum Explorer]

EDIT:
Models in Drop Pods are not counted for the purposes of Tactical Reserves. That means you don't have to half your army on the board (points or PR, doesn't matter), and you can come down on Turn 1.
This is not a Stratagem. It's all Drop Pods. All the time.

Grey Knight players: "Why is it so cold..."

It comes down to points. If the Drop Pods stay at a little under a 100 points a pop, they'll simply be too expensive to spam. Still, I'd expect many space marine armies to take 1 or 2 of them. And I can't see why you'd ever take a Rhino. But really, the Rhino thing (for Space Marines) has been true since the start of the edition.

[Cheesegear]

It comes down to points. If the Drop Pods stay at a little under a 100 points a pop, they'll simply be too expensive to spam. Still, I'd expect many space marine armies to take 1 or 2 of them. And I can't see why you'd ever take a Rhino. But really, the Rhino thing (for Space Marines) has been true since the start of the edition.

From the leaks, it looks like you can Charge out of 'em. Which means Black Templars are going to spam them, especially since they can choose to re-roll only single dice now.

But when it comes to Drop Pods, it's time to start including Deathwatch Detachments, 'cause 10 dudes with Storm Bolters is going to be on fire.

[Destro_Yersul]

What hurts termies is mid str mid AP, so being immune to lasguns and bolters isn't going to matter much, especially since -1 and -2 AP is the meta. Denying ObSec within 6" doesn't help them since they're expensive models in a horde meta so they can't take anything on their own and marines could have just gotten more scouts for the same points and more CP to just have more ObSec bodies.

Wound bloat certainly wouldn't hurt them, but can you really justify them having 2W over a marine? It's bad enough that Paladin's get it, though at least there's precedent for that.

Eh, if extra thick armour justifies an invulnerable save, it's probably worth an extra wound. If AP -1 and -2 is the meta, switch to having them RR1's against anything AP-1. If denying ObSec on its own isn't good enough, give them Super ObSec, so they can ObSec vs ObSec things. None of my ideas are bad, just unrefined due to not knowing the meta very well.

[Drasius]

Eh, if extra thick armour justifies an invulnerable save, it's probably worth an extra wound. If AP -1 and -2 is the meta, switch to having them RR1's against anything AP-1. If denying ObSec on its own isn't good enough, give them Super ObSec, so they can ObSec vs ObSec things. None of my ideas are bad, just unrefined due to not knowing the meta very well.

Termie armour already give +1W, the problem comes with justifying another one on top of that.

RR saves against - 1 is nice, but termies are always going to be plasma bait, wounded on 2's, 2 damage a shot, ignores armour and is already a meta staple means termies getting bonii against small arms is mostly irrelevant, and it does not fix their main issue of not being able to get into combat.

Super obsec could work... For 5 minutes until everything else got it, then it would go straight back to most models and terminators are expensive. Might be less bad if you started handing out crimson fist style [x] counts as 2 models though, but then they'd still get trumped by obsec.

It's an interesting discussion, and 8th having the "problem" of troops being too good is exactly what everyone said would happen when the idea of having strong troops kept getting brought up in previous editions. If troops are sufficiently strong, why bother taking anything else, just take more troops.

[The Patterner]

Termie armour already give +1W, the problem comes with justifying another one on top of that.

RR saves against - 1 is nice, but termies are always going to be plasma bait, wounded on 2's, 2 damage a shot, ignores armour and is already a meta staple means termies getting bonii against small arms is mostly irrelevant, and it does not fix their main issue of not being able to get into combat.

Super obsec could work... For 5 minutes until everything else got it, then it would go straight back to most models and terminators are expensive. Might be less bad if you started handing out crimson fist style [x] counts as 2 models though, but then they'd still get trumped by obsec.

It's an interesting discussion, and 8th having the "problem" of troops being too good is exactly what everyone said would happen when the idea of having strong troops kept getting brought up in previous editions. If troops are sufficiently strong, why bother taking anything else, just take more troops.

How about giving termies 1+ save? They still fail on a 1, but becomes harder to bring down with heavy bolter e.q.

Maybe also give them some form of "against all odds rule", so that if they are outnumbered they get bonus attacks.

It would make them better at handling hordes.

[Cheesegear]

How about giving termies 1+ save? They still fail on a 1, but becomes harder to bring down with heavy bolter e.q.

As someone who runs Centurions in Cover (who are also T5 with 3 Wounds), a 1+ Save isn't that helpful. Either you start getting rolled by AP-2 that does 2 Damage each (e.g; Plasma), or worse, they look at your unit packing three Hurricane Bolters and six Heavy Bolters and they say "Yeah, that's not allowed." and then a Knight Crusader gets pointed in their direction. The idea that your opponent is pulling their hair out 'cause they can't take down Terminators with AP-1 is disrespectful to your opponents. Nobody uses Heavy Bolters to bring down Centurions, and Centurions don't even have Invulnerable saves.

The thing that would make Terminators better is 'Be Blightlords.' It's not rocket science.

Basically, all <Imperium> Terminators went into the ****ter when Custodes got Terminators++ for Troops.

Which was the meta for about...I wanna say a month; Custodes vs. Blightlords. I'm pretty sure that was the Grand Final match at Adepticon?

EDIT: Correction. It was BAO last year in the Knight meta. iNcontroL faced that Death Guard list with his Custodes (loss in the final round took him to #4, if you're looking) in the Grand Final. This year, Geoff won BAO using Forge World Custodes. (RIP iNcontroL)

[Drasius]

And on top of all this, nothing suggested so far helps with their biggest issue - getting into combat reliably. Making them more killy is kinda pointless if they can't get to the fight in the first place.

I wonder if the return of drop pods can provide enough early pressure to make termites coming in on T2 a nice reinforcement once chaff is cleared, or if it's just going to be sending marines into the grinder piecemeal? Maybe you could bring back some locator beacon shenanigans and have pods come down T1 and have locator beacons let SUA units coming down within 6" rr their charges? Might be nice for mixed ravenwing/deathwing too (assuming they can take teleport homers/locator beacons still?), but then, that'd just mean everyone starts taking a ravenwing patrol or FA detachment and it wouldn't fix chaos termies.

[Manticoran]

Slightly tangential to all this, but what if like, all meq units had two wounds, and we adjusted points and wounds on everything else from there? Terminators would then maybe have three standard, and the super terminators 4, etc. It seems easy for me to believe Marines are not only harder to hurt than guardsmen, and not only is their armor better, but they also take twice as much killing.(All the extra organs and **** after all.)

It seems like a much better spot to balance 8th around, personally.

[Cheesegear]

And on top of all this, nothing suggested so far helps with their biggest issue - getting into combat reliably. Making them more killy is kinda pointless if they can't get to the fight in the first place.

You're only thinking about ones with Hammers and Claws...Except without the Claws.

What the **** are Terminators with Power Fists and Storm Bolters supposed to do? At least Space Wolves figured out that spending 12 Points per dude for a weapon you're never going to use is a dumb idea and gave everyone Axes and Claws.

I wonder if the return of drop pods can provide enough early pressure to make termites coming in on T2 a nice reinforcement once chaff is cleared

Do Vanguard still exist? Why don't I use them for cheaper with <Fly>, so my opponent's Mortars hiding behind Buildings can actually die.

Maybe you could bring back some locator beacon shenanigans and have pods come down T1 and have locator beacons let SUA units coming down within 6" rr their charges?

Here's hoping. But in current 8.1 Codex, Teleport Homers definitely don't do that. You put them in your Deployment Zone and your Terminators can teleport back to them at will, if your opponent moves within 9" of the Homer, it is destroyed.

Currently the only army that uses Teleport Homers is Deathwatch.

Advance a Jump Captain on Turn 1 and slingshot a unit with Beacon Angelis, unload Storm Bolters.
When your opponent charges you in their turn, and you don't die (because your entire unit has Storm Shields), you peace out back to your DZ with the Teleport Homer.

Slightly tangential to all this, but what if like, all meq units had two wounds, and we adjusted points and wounds on everything else from there?

You mean like Primaris Marines?

[LansXero]

So, now that everyone's caught up to the terribleness that are Terminators, I think everyone needs to realize that they can either be OP or suck, and the middle ground is pretty hard to cover without washing out individual quirks.

- negate AP1? Thats Salamander termies.
- move ahead of the deployment zone? Thats Raven Guard termies
- count as more models for controlling objectives? Thats Crimson Fists termies.
- wound better? Thats BA termies
- 1 to be wounded? Thats DA termies

and so on and so forth. So, any design of new Terminator rules has to take Chapter Traits and doctrines into account, since otherwise you'd make them redundant, or create wonky interactions.

In my opinion, they need a way to clear terrain faster. The Dawn of War terminators had, on top of their deep-strike, a limited range teleport on a cooldown, similar to what Warp Spiders have currently. So, give them that: Advance on 4d6, ignore terrain while you do that, lose a model on any double 1s (teleporting into rocks is a thing). Sure, they canr advance-and-charge, but if someone can brunt the shooting phase its Terminators. Of course, this makes Terminators still unable to keep up with fast units, but they become great at bullying static gunlines like Basilisks, Whirlwinds, mortar teams, etc. Maybe even let them advance + charge for CPs so they can do it, but not all of them and not all the time?

Survivability isnt an issue. They already survive well enough, and depending on chapter trait you can get FNP or ignore small weapons fire, or -1 to be wounded, or -1 to be shot from afar, so more on top of that would be too much. Adjust points until it fits, of course.

As for sticking in combat, Terminators should be this sweeping thing that just crushes lesser things beneath them. So give them a new weapon: Terminator CC weapon. S user, Ap0, D1. If unit size is 10 or more, 2 hit rolls per Attack. if 20 or more, 3 hits per Attack (last part might be a bit much). Coupled with the new Shock Assault, this lets them clear out chaff, while not getting free attacks to beat vehicles with a hammer. Maybe have things tied up with a Terminator the 'cant fall back unless it rolls a 4+" rule that DE have? To represent the fear and awe they produce to freeze the enemies, without giving morale effects that anyone would just ignore?

[JNAProductions]

So, now that everyone's caught up to the terribleness that are Terminators, I think everyone needs to realize that they can either be OP or suck, and the middle ground is pretty hard to cover without washing out individual quirks.

- negate AP1? Thats Salamander termies.
- move ahead of the deployment zone? Thats Raven Guard termies
- count as more models for controlling objectives? Thats Crimson Fists termies.
- wound better? Thats BA termies
- 1 to be wounded? Thats DA termies

and so on and so forth. So, any design of new Terminator rules has to take Chapter Traits and doctrines into account, since otherwise you'd make them redundant, or create wonky interactions.

In my opinion, they need a way to clear terrain faster. The Dawn of War terminators had, on top of their deep-strike, a limited range teleport on a cooldown, similar to what Warp Spiders have currently. So, give them that: Advance on 4d6, ignore terrain while you do that, lose a model on any double 1s (teleporting into rocks is a thing). Sure, they canr advance-and-charge, but if someone can brunt the shooting phase its Terminators. Of course, this makes Terminators still unable to keep up with fast units, but they become great at bullying static gunlines like Basilisks, Whirlwinds, mortar teams, etc. Maybe even let them advance + charge for CPs so they can do it, but not all of them and not all the time?

Survivability isnt an issue. They already survive well enough, and depending on chapter trait you can get FNP or ignore small weapons fire, or -1 to be wounded, or -1 to be shot from afar, so more on top of that would be too much. Adjust points until it fits, of course.

As for sticking in combat, Terminators should be this sweeping thing that just crushes lesser things beneath them. So give them a new weapon: Terminator CC weapon. S user, Ap0, D1. If unit size is 10 or more, 2 hit rolls per Attack. if 20 or more, 3 hits per Attack (last part might be a bit much). Coupled with the new Shock Assault, this lets them clear out chaff, while not getting free attacks to beat vehicles with a hammer. Maybe have things tied up with a Terminator the 'cant fall back unless it rolls a 4+" rule that DE have? To represent the fear and awe they produce to freeze the enemies, without giving morale effects that anyone would just ignore?

Some of that I'm okay with. Giving Terminators an option to Sweep Attack (though I'd limit it to 2 hit rolls per attack) is fine. A Shunt move is also fine.

But a 4+ to fall back? Based on the way you describe it, it makes no sense. I can easily see a Guardsmen being too terrified to move, or a Cultist, or a Grot. But what if you charge the Swarmlord, he lives and butchers all but one Terminator, and then the Swarmlord is too scared to run away? No.

[LansXero]

Some of that I'm okay with. Giving Terminators an option to Sweep Attack (though I'd limit it to 2 hit rolls per attack) is fine. A Shunt move is also fine.

But a 4+ to fall back? Based on the way you describe it, it makes no sense. I can easily see a Guardsmen being too terrified to move, or a Cultist, or a Grot. But what if you charge the Swarmlord, he lives and butchers all but one Terminator, and then the Swarmlord is too scared to run away? No.

Maybe 4+, +2 to the roll if a character? Dunno, it sucks for them to chase stuff, then have it disengage and get shot to pieces xD.

Although, Custodes have that I think, but its fine for it to be their niche. They also have a 'halves speed' grenade as a strat, to be able to chase things, so you could turn that into for points wargear. But as mentioned, improving termies begins to crib stuff thats unique to some factions / special units. It can always be that thing Reivers have; a walking tank should at least be as scary as a dude with a skull painted helm.

[Drasius]

You're only thinking about ones with Hammers and Claws...Except without the Claws.

There's no such thing as non TH/SS termies Cheese, stop being silly.

What the **** are Terminators with Power Fists and Storm Bolters supposed to do? At least Space Wolves figured out that spending 12 Points per dude for a weapon you're never going to use is a dumb idea and gave everyone Axes and Claws.

Stop muckin' about and git gud (weapons)? Alternatively, I guess they can pewpew their storm bolters before/instead of failing their charge while being cheaper than real terminators so it hurts slightly less when they get plasma'ed off the board just like every other edition?

Do Vanguard still exist? Why don't I use them for cheaper with <Fly>, so my opponent's Mortars hiding behind Buildings can actually die.

I was thinking that you would do that as well rather than instead of.

Here's hoping. But in current 8.1 Codex, Teleport Homers definitely don't do that. You put them in your Deployment Zone and your Terminators can teleport back to them at will, if your opponent moves within 9" of the Homer, it is destroyed.

Currently the only army that uses Teleport Homers is Deathwatch.

Advance a Jump Captain on Turn 1 and slingshot a unit with Beacon Angelis, unload Storm Bolters.
When your opponent charges you in their turn, and you don't die (because your entire unit has Storm Shields), you peace out back to your DZ with the Teleport Homer.

That's super lame.

As for sticking in combat, Terminators should be this sweeping thing that just crushes lesser things beneath them. So give them a new weapon: Terminator CC weapon. S user, Ap0, D1. If unit size is 10 or more, 2 hit rolls per Attack. if 20 or more, 3 hits per Attack (last part might be a bit much). Coupled with the new Shock Assault, this lets them clear out chaff, while not getting free attacks to beat vehicles with a hammer. Maybe have things tied up with a Terminator the 'cant fall back unless it rolls a 4+" rule that DE have? To represent the fear and awe they produce to freeze the enemies, without giving morale effects that anyone would just ignore?

I don't think you can have a unit of 20 terminators, nor would it be viable if you could.

I was going to say that it feels like it wouldn't make much difference if they did get get double attacks if they weren't using their power weapons, but after running the numbers, they go from killing 0.83 GEQ each per phase to 1.18 GEQ each per phase. So we're both right, as while it's a 40% increase, it's still incredibly underwhelming.

I really don't like the no falling back idea, termies are renowned for being slow (compared to regular marines) and there are only about four units in the game that aren't buildings that are slower than they are (and 2 of those are other terminator equivalents!). They also had the no sweeping advance rule for ages in previous editions 'cause their mobility was limited, so it'd be a bit odd if they could lock stuff in combat now.

Maybe 4+, +2 to the roll if a character? Dunno, it sucks for them to chase stuff, then have it disengage and get shot to pieces xD.

Survivability isnt an issue. They already survive well enough, and depending on chapter trait you can get FNP or ignore small weapons fire, or -1 to be wounded, or -1 to be shot from afar, so more on top of that would be too much

Make up your mind, are they survivable enough or not? ;p