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  1. - Top - End - #1231
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    From the leaks, it looks like you can Charge out of 'em. Which means Black Templars are going to spam them, especially since they can choose to re-roll only single dice now.

    But when it comes to Drop Pods, it's time to start including Deathwatch Detachments, 'cause 10 dudes with Storm Bolters is going to be on fire.
    I'm asking how many can they realistically take? Are you up to writing a Drop Pod spam list?


    Oh yeah, those are going to be scary. I expect many Space Marine armies are going to take at least one drop pod, just to hide a scary shooty unit in and gurantee it can unload it's full power.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    I don't think you can have a unit of 20 terminators, nor would it be viable if you could.
    It meant to be the target unit, not the terminator's own. And they are getting +1 attack already, from the new Angels of Death rules.

    I really don't like the no falling back idea, termies are renowned for being slow (compared to regular marines) and there are only about four units in the game that aren't buildings that are slower than they are (and 2 of those are other terminator equivalents!). They also had the no sweeping advance rule for ages in previous editions 'cause their mobility was limited, so it'd be a bit odd if they could lock stuff in combat now.
    Well sure, and yet Custodes DO have that rule, so make of that what you will. Previous editions dont matter if we are trying to fix the unit to be relevant in the game NOW, even if they can inform design choices / skill names.

    Make up your mind, are they survivable enough or not? ;p
    That depends on their point cost. They are survivable enough that if they get in your face you need to devote a fair bit of firepower to getting rid of them, so they accomplish that at least. They are also not survivable enough to stay past 1 turn tying stuff up, so leaving them stuck in combat could give them more staying / annoyance power, if only because you cant shoot at them anymore and most shooty things wont be chewing through a unit of terminators in melee.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Going away from the terminators for a moment, something I haven’t seen mentioned here is that the Space Marine combat doctrines (the rule which gives certain weapons better armour penetration at different points in the battle) only functions if your army is only marines, i.e. it limits soup.

    This is interesting as it’s the first thing we’ve seen that attempts to discourage soup; I wonder if we’ll see more of this type of thing going forward? In this case, I don’t think it’s good enough to be the better choice over soup, although apparently it does enable a lot of the stratagems in the new codex, which might make it a less clear choice?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Actually, someone brought up giving the Terminators a 1+ save? I think that, along with stripping away their Invulnerable saves and thus, decreasing their points, would likely be enough. I mean, now plasma weapons only bring them to a 4+. A 3+ if they are in cover. Which makes the shooty terminators so much better.

    I might also give them the ability to move and shoot without penalty. That's been a Terminator thing for a long time, and they should get it back.

    And then, that's it. That might not fix Assault Terminators, but honestly, so long as Storm Shields are a thing, there really isn't a reason to take Assault Terminators since the Storm Shield does 80% of the work anyways, and can be taken on cheaper units that also move faster. So you'll never take Assault Terminators anyways.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Giving them back Relentless will at least let Assault Cannon Termis be a thing. Also, just knock 5 points off them. The Invuln is bought off by the various other things the Terminator armor forces on you and there's no reason to pay twice in this age.

    Also give Assault Termis another attack. And I mean that in addition to the one they are getting already, for 4 attacks. Should do the trick.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    There's no such thing as non TH/SS termies Cheese, stop being silly.
    Which is exactly my point. Why take anything, when you can take something else. Is there a way to write the rules so that you want to take the other thing?
    (i.e; If it's not OP, why is it on the table?)

    Really though, all's Terminators need is the following:
    - Squad Size: Allow them to come in squads of 3-10.
    - Statblock: An extra wound, but not an extra attack.
    - Wargear: Use Space Wolf options for wargear. That is, you can take anything you want, per dude.
    - Abilities: They count as 2 models for the purposes of holding Objectives.

    My problem is you would also pass the extra wound to Blightlords and Paladins, who don't need it, and then we're back to square one where Blightlords and Paladins are the only Terminators worth having...And then there's Custodes.

    Stop muckin' about and git gud (weapons)?
    You mean like Space Wolves who don't take Power Fists?

    Alternatively, I guess they can pewpew their storm bolters before/instead of failing their charge while being cheaper than real terminators
    Give Terminators access to Storm Bolters, Power Axes and Storm Shields in any combination, and you're good to go.

    so it hurts slightly less when they get plasma'ed off the board just like every other edition?
    That's why they need 3 Wounds. It's not T5 and 2+ Save that makes Custodes good, it's the 3 Wounds. D3 Damage weapons barely work, and 2 Damage weapons are laughed at.

    I was thinking that you would [take Vanguard and Terminators] rather than instead of.
    But then what would you score Objectives with?

    That's super lame.
    It is. Teleport Homers are just Get Out of Jail Free cards now.

    I don't think you can have a unit of 20 terminators, nor would it be viable if you could.
    Depends if they can make 1st Turn Charges or not. Of if you made Heavy weapons 2-per-5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm asking how many [Drop Pods] can they realistically take? Are you up to writing a Drop Pod spam list?
    They're currently 65 Points. So you could easily get away with 6 or 7.
    If you're running a Deathwatch Battalion (and everyone who misses when Tactical Marines were good, should), a 3-Drop Pod Battalion is more than enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Going away from the terminators for a moment, something I haven’t seen mentioned here is that the Space Marine combat doctrines (the rule which gives certain weapons better armour penetration at different points in the battle) only functions if your army is only marines, i.e. it limits soup.
    The reason no-one's talking about it, is 'cause it's garbage. Some of your weapons, sometimes, gain an additional AP for some of the game.

    In return, lose access to the Loyal 32 and/or Rusty 17. Also, no Knights allowed. Yeah. It's not flying for obvious reasons.

    This is interesting as it’s the first thing we’ve seen that attempts to discourage soup sales
    Fixed that for you.
    Discouraging soup is a bad idea from a corporate standpoint, and it's also a bad idea from a gaming perspective unless GW can actually manage to balance how armies with 80-90 Objective Secured models with Invulnerables and/or Ignore Wounds function on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I might also give them the ability to move and shoot without penalty. That's been a Terminator thing for a long time, and they should get it back.
    Bikes should get it, too. But GW confirmed that only White Scars are allowed to do that.

    And then, that's it. That might not fix Assault Terminators
    Assault Terminators shouldn't even be a thing. They should just be Terminators, the end. You then upgrade as many dudes as needed, with a Thunder Hammer and/or Storm Shield.

    Again, the dream is kitting out all your dudes with Storm Bolters, Power Axes and Storm Shields. Any combination. Doesn't matter. Space Wolf Terminators aren't total trash because they get the best of all worlds, depending on what you want to do with them. Now, the Thunderwolf in the room, is that regular Wolf Guard can do the same thing, for cheaper. Cheaper, means more models. More models = more better. But then, if we're talking about combinations of Storm Bolters, Power Axes and Storm Shields...You know we could all be playing Deathwatch right now, right?
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  7. - Top - End - #1237
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Also give Assault Termis another attack. And I mean that in addition to the one they are getting already, for 4 attacks. Should do the trick.
    Why? I'm serious. Cheesegear kinda brings it up, but there is so much redundancy in the Space Marine codex simply from how massive it is. It's almost impossible to not make something the best choice for a role, because every role has multiple units competing for that role. So something will end up being the best, and then that's the only one you take. And that's before you get into taking allies.

    So why should Terminators be better than Assault Marines or Veterans? Or Death Company?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Which is exactly my point. Why take anything, when you can take something else. Is there a way to write the rules so that you want to take the other thing?
    (i.e; If it's not OP, why is it on the table?)

    Really though, all's Terminators need is the following:
    - Squad Size: Allow them to come in squads of 3-10.
    - Statblock: An extra wound, but not an extra attack.
    - Wargear: Use Space Wolf options for wargear. That is, you can take anything you want, per dude.
    - Abilities: They count as 2 models for the purposes of holding Objectives.

    My problem is you would also pass the extra wound to Blightlords and Paladins, who don't need it, and then we're back to square one where Blightlords and Paladins are the only Terminators worth having...And then there's Custodes.



    You mean like Space Wolves who don't take Power Fists?



    Give Terminators access to Storm Bolters, Power Axes and Storm Shields in any combination, and you're good to go.



    That's why they need 3 Wounds. It's not T5 and 2+ Save that makes Custodes good, it's the 3 Wounds. D3 Damage weapons barely work, and 2 Damage weapons are laughed at.



    But then what would you score Objectives with?



    It is. Teleport Homers are just Get Out of Jail Free cards now.



    Depends if they can make 1st Turn Charges or not. Of if you made Heavy weapons 2-per-5.



    They're currently 65 Points. So you could easily get away with 6 or 7.
    If you're running a Deathwatch Battalion (and everyone who misses when Tactical Marines were good, should), a 3-Drop Pod Battalion is more than enough.



    The reason no-one's talking about it, is 'cause it's garbage. Some of your weapons, sometimes, gain an additional AP for some of the game.

    In return, lose access to the Loyal 32 and/or Rusty 17. Also, no Knights allowed. Yeah. It's not flying for obvious reasons.



    Fixed that for you.
    Discouraging soup is a bad idea from a corporate standpoint, and it's also a bad idea from a gaming perspective unless GW can actually manage to balance how armies with 80-90 Objective Secured models with Invulnerables and/or Ignore Wounds function on the table.



    Bikes should get it, too. But GW confirmed that only White Scars are allowed to do that.



    Assault Terminators shouldn't even be a thing. They should just be Terminators, the end. You then upgrade as many dudes as needed, with a Thunder Hammer and/or Storm Shield.

    Again, the dream is kitting out all your dudes with Storm Bolters, Power Axes and Storm Shields. Any combination. Doesn't matter. Space Wolf Terminators aren't total trash because they get the best of all worlds, depending on what you want to do with them. Now, the Thunderwolf in the room, is that regular Wolf Guard can do the same thing, for cheaper. Cheaper, means more models. More models = more better. But then, if we're talking about combinations of Storm Bolters, Power Axes and Storm Shields...You know we could all be playing Deathwatch right now, right?
    Which kinda brings me to what I'm saying above. Why should we make Terminators the best option? It's not like Space Marines don't already have good melee units. So I'm fine with Terminators getting a small buff because I do think they are both over-costed and under effective, but I don't want to make them the new 'best melee unit' either.

    I forgot that Drop Pods got a point decrease. I wonder if that'll stay, or if it'll go back to what it was before. After all, the new Obliterators got a pretty substantial point increase when they got buffed.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    So why should Terminators be better than Assault Marines or Veterans? Or Death Company?
    They shouldn't. That's what I was talking about when I said Lysander should give <Terminators> re-rolls to Charge. I realise that allowing Terminators to set up within 7" and re-rolls is stupid. That was me blatantly wish-listing about models I like. But what's wrong with a special character just giving <Terminators> re-rolls to Charge? That seems reasonable. The idea is sound, even if the execution is a horrible mess. But that's why collaborative design processes are real things. It's why authors have editors.

    (Unless they self-publish on Amazon and their book is just an OP Marty Stu dunking on everything and getting not one, not two, but three super hot chicks to want to ride him. Rand al'Thor is a separate case, please don't compare your self-published garbage to Wheel of Time, k thx. You'll also notice, that even with Rand being...Rand...He is pretty much everyone's least favourite character.)

    Which kinda brings me to what I'm saying above. Why should we make Terminators the best option?
    They shouldn't be 'better' than anything. That's a mistake that everyone - including me - makes. They should be, at the very least, on par with what already exists. Remove wargear. What is a Terminator?

    Statblock
    - 2 Wounds, 2+/5++

    'Kay. We know that Terminators should be survivable. That appears to be their gimmick. Are they?
    - 2 Wounds is a joke. 2 Damage weapons are common enough that having 2 Wounds, doesn't meant anything.
    - 2+ Save. Well, it's the best you can get. So, sure. 1 for 2.
    - 5++ is good, sure...When your armour save is a joke (e.g; Tzaangors). When you have a 2+ Save, though, you have to be hit with AP-4 before it becomes relevant. I can't actually count that many AP-4 weapons off the top of my head (Listing all the different kinds of Melta weapons, doesn't count).

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    Why are Blightlords good? Well, on top of that, they also have T5 and Ignore Wounds. Who cares if they never use their Invulnerable, they've got Ignore Wounds. If you've got Ignore Wounds, and 2 Wounds, 2 Damage weapons are also a lot less problematic because for every one save you make, you burn up an extra allocated wound. The Disgustingly Resilient is a Nurgle thing. Let them have it. Oh ****, I guess the T5 is also a Nurgle thing. Those are things Blightlords get on top of being a 'basic' Terminator.

    Why are Paladins good? Well, 3 Wounds. Obviously. Sanctuary is a Power that's pretty much a given, so now we're talking about AP-3 weapons causing Invulnerables, which are a lot more common, which means if you're making Paladins pay for the Invulnerable save, they're actually going to use it. Then follow it up with optional Warding Staves where the player can make a choice on how many to take (They're 1 to a box, so the number a player takes, is usually however many they have). Now, a GK player has the option of putting AP-2 weapons on particular models and still having those models live. AP-2 is the meta. Those 3+ Invulnerables are necessary.

    3 Wounds makes Terminators survivable. 4+ and 3+ Invulnerables are even better - hence, Storm Shields.

    The only change I would possibly even think about making, is making Terminators' Invulnerable, 4+. But that's a special thing for Cataphractii Terminators that also has consequences for Cataphractii Captains. So changing the Invulnerable would require further looking into than I'm prepared to bother with. Not to mention that it would also change how Grey Knights work, and let's just...Not.

    Wargear
    Now, the trouble with wargear - in every Codex - is that a weapon is always a weapon, regardless of who wields it. What's the difference between a Captain wielding a Thunder Hammer, Terminators wielding Thunder Hammers, or Vanguard wielding Thunder Hammers? There isn't one. A Hammer is a Hammer is a Hammer. What matters, is the number of attacks and the attack stat of the model wielding it. A Captain has 4 Attacks and WS2, and a Terminator has 2 Attacks and WS3...A Vanguard also has two Attacks and WS3.

    Should Terminators have more attacks, then? **** off. Why can't Vanguard get more attacks? Because a Vanguard isn't defined by their wargear. A Vanguard is defined by their Jump Pack. The same way that a Terminator is defined by their Armour.

    Wargear is irrelevant.

    However, at the same time, having fixed wargear where every model has to carry the same weapon (or weapons) is asinine. 1st Company Veterans are just that. Marines who are hundreds of years old, who have mastered every weapon...Have to use the same weapons as their brothers. Vanguard don't have to use all the same weapons. Sternguard don't have to use all the same weapons. Why make Terminators use all the same weapons? Why are there two separate Datasheets for Terminators and Assault Terminators? It's dumb. Why aren't they both the same unit, why can't you do anything you want? Sternguard can (though they shouldn't), and Vanguard can. Terminators, however, are sacred cows now?

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    Teleport Strike is fine. Nothing wrong with it. But, what if you want to Charge out of Deep Strike? Now, everything in the game that does this maneuver, has one thing in common; They re-roll to Charge. Now, is it fair that the sole Chapter that can re-roll Charges on Terminators is Black Templars? Is that what people think about when they hear about Black Templars? Terminators Charging out of Deep Strike? Now, in previous editions, that has always been my boi, Lysander (who is a Black Templar in all but name) - he even had an Apocalypse Formation built around his ability to push peoples' **** in sideways.

    Point is, re-roll Charges should be special. Okay. Let's leave Teleport Strike alone. So if you're not going to reliably Charge, what do you do out of Deep Strike, then?

    You shoot, derp. Once again, Storm Bolters aren't special. I can put Storm Bolters on anything, and due to Bolter Discipline, I don't even have to leave my DZ anymore. So why the **** would I throw Terminators <12" from my opponent (and risking an Intercept), when dudes safe in my DZ, in Cover, can do the same job, for less points (and have no risk of being Intercepted)?
    ...Well, Dark Angels can shoot twice? No stop. That's their thing. Leave it alone.

    What wargear can Terminators take, that's actually unique to them, and them alone?
    ...Assault Cannons and Cyclones. Exactly. More of that please. But if Assault Cannons and Cyclones take negs to hit, what's the point?

    Remember Relentless, good times? The auto-stabilisers and the...****...I can't remember the term (What's it called when you walk a certain way that it that keeps your gun level)...Point is, Terminators don't move a lot, even when they do move. Remove the negs to hit on Heavy weapons for Terminators. We also know from Grey Knights, that it's totally possible to run more than two Heavy weapons in a Terminator unit. After all, these guys are 1st Company Veterans. Weren't they Devastators at some point, too? So, more Heavy weapons would also be nice. Remember, wargear costs points. So if you want 4 Assault Cannons in a single unit, you will pay for it. So it's fine.

    We also know from 30K, that Terminators are the ****. They're scoring units. Terminators are very good in 30K because they don't get cucked out of Objectives. In 40K? That would translate to Objective Secured. That's fine with me. Grey Knights have 'em as Troops, right? Why not give everyone else, Objective Secured, as Elites? Seems okay. And you wouldn't have to give ObSec to Vanguard or Sternguard because the justification is "Well, are Sternguard or Vanguard immovable brick ****houses, too? Didn't think so."

    (We also know from 30K that running a ****ton of Heavy weapons in a Terminator squad is the point of Terminator warsuits in the first place. Terminators can port weapons that 'normal' Marines, can't.)

    In conclusion:
    1. +1 Wound,
    2. Terminators can take any wargear they want, in any combination they want. Additionally, add Power Weapons to the Terminator Melee Weapons list,
    3. For every five models in the unit, two models may take a weapon from the Terminator Heavy Weapons. (I will point out that current-rules Deathwatch Terminators can take 3 Heavy Weapons, regardless of how many models are in the squad),
    4. Additionally to Bolter Discipline, if Terminators move, they don't take the penalty to hit when firing Heavy weapons,
    5. Optional and probably not necessary or wanted; Objective Secured.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-13 at 12:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    It would change how grey knights work, and let's just not.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear
    The only change I would possibly even think about making, is making Terminators' Invulnerable, 4+. But that's a special thing for Cataphractii Terminators that also has consequences for Cataphractii Captains. So changing the Invulnerable would require further looking into than I'm prepared to bother with. Not to mention that it would also change how Grey Knights work, and let's just...Not.
    I am of the opinion that Cataphractii doesn't need to be a thing. Terminators are in a bad enough position that the one thing they really don't need, is a different type of Terminator which is also just better than they are while still being pretty bad.

    Grey Knight terminators can get away with it because they're a different unit in a different book with a different role and other unique wargear options - in nearly everything but shape and size they barely qualify as the same thing. Even go so far as to stop calling them Terminators if you like, they can be Heavy Power Armour or Aegis Suits or something, to avoid confusion. Or just don't, and now GK Terminators are different to Astartes Terminators because shut up we say so.

    But Astartes Terminators (Cataphractii, Assault, Boltor-and-Fist or otherwise) should just be one option that you can kit out as you please, like how you described Space Wolves.
    That way they can be evenly balanced against each other as well as other units, and give the player the freedom to do what they want without tying them to dud options. It's also how you get away with making changes to Terminator units WITHOUT effecting HQ choices - You don't have a "Terminator Captain", but you have a Captain who can optionally take Terminator Armour and other wargear without also picking up those other keywords that accidentally give him extra wounds and such.
    You want a HQ guy with 3++ but not a storm shield? Okay, you can upgrade your Iron Halo to a Silver Halo, or something; weirdly that just happens to cost exactly the same as the difference between Terminator Armour and Cataphractii armour, who would have guessed?
    Last edited by Wraith; 2019-08-13 at 02:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    T
    In conclusion:
    1. +1 Wound,
    2. Terminators can take any wargear they want, in any combination they want. Additionally, add Power Weapons to the Terminator Melee Weapons list,
    3. For every five models in the unit, two models may take a weapon from the Terminator Heavy Weapons. (I will point out that current-rules Deathwatch Terminators can take 3 Heavy Weapons, regardless of how many models are in the squad),
    4. Additionally to Bolter Discipline, if Terminators move, they don't take the penalty to hit when firing Heavy weapons,
    5. Optional and probably not necessary or wanted; Objective Secured.
    1. I do disagree with this, I like making their save a 1+ a lot better. I feel like Plasmas and other damage two weapons should be anti-terminator weapons. But having a 4+ save in response, or just having access to Storm Shields in any combination, would be an adequete defense against them.
    2. Agreed on every level.
    3. Agreed again.
    4. Yup
    5. I might make this dependent on something else. Like the Leman Russes for Guard, something like: 'Space Marine Terminators in a Vanguard Detachment are Objective Secured.' So they can have it, and relatively trivially, but it's not without cost either.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The reason no-one's talking about it, is 'cause it's garbage. Some of your weapons, sometimes, gain an additional AP for some of the game.

    In return, lose access to the Loyal 32 and/or Rusty 17. Also, no Knights allowed. Yeah. It's not flying for obvious reasons.

    Fixed that for you.
    Discouraging soup is a bad idea from a corporate standpoint, and it's also a bad idea from a gaming perspective unless GW can actually manage to balance how armies with 80-90 Objective Secured models with Invulnerables and/or Ignore Wounds function on the table.
    I know it’s bad, I said so myself! What I’m interested in is the concept of giving bonuses like this to mono codex lists: despite what you say, GW is clearly ok with the possibility of mono codex lists, otherwise this ability wouldn’t exist. What they want corporately is for both to be viable: someone who goes heavily into one codex is just as good for them as someone who only buys a few of each range. They’re not about to ban soup, but giving bonuses to mono codex lists could even the playing field somewhat, and in my book a more diverse meta is a positive for the gaming scene (particularly as it gives a bonus to players who are just starting out, allowing them to participate better).

    AP-1 is clearly not good enough, unless accompanied by particularly good stratagems as an additional bonus. So I’m interested in what would be good enough for a competitive player to consider a mono codex list over the loyal 32 and a knight? I suspect it would have to be something that counters the soup strengths: uber objective secured maybe, or allowing a free 1 point stratagem a turn: something that works in the same space but differently to soup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Or just don't, and now GK Terminators are different to Astartes Terminators because shut up we say so.
    Not really. They look like ducks and quack like ducks. Their survivability is still something they don't have without investment. Remember, regardless of what you give Blightlords, they will still take the majority of your opponent's army to destroy, and even then, not a sure thing.

    If you choose not to give GKs Warding Staves, they don't do the thing. If you fail to manifest Sanctuary, they don't do the thing.

    Blightlords are Just Good. Because they do what Terminators are supposed to do - not die. The fact that they carry Power Axes that re-roll 1s to wound, is solid. That's just what they do. If you invest with Arch-Cotaminator and Blades of Putrefaction and Veterans of the Long War they become better. That is, they're a good unit to begin with, and you make them even better. GK Paladins are a medicre unit, that you bring up to the 'good' tier with investment.

    You don't have a "Terminator Captain", but you have a Captain who can optionally take Terminator Armour and other wargear without also picking up those other keywords that accidentally give him extra wounds and such.
    I thought that's why Space Marines were losing 11 units in the new Codex. They were rolling HQs '...in/on X' into the same units, the way that Apocalypse did. But so far I haven't heard anything about it. Not that I've gone out and looked because YouTube reviews are so God damned boring and half the stuff I don't even care about, but there are no timestamps so you have to go through the whole thing and because at least half of the shills GW gives review copies are not competitive, they don't even know what they're looking at.

    You want a HQ guy with 3++ but not a storm shield? Okay, you can upgrade your Iron Halo to a Silver Halo, or something...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    1. I do disagree with this, I like making their save a 1+ a lot better.
    Are Terminators benefiting from Cover as well?

    I might make this dependent on something else. Like the Leman Russes for Guard
    It's infuriating that they made fluffy options for Guard, and then never did it for anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    So I’m interested in what would be good enough for a competitive player to consider a mono codex list over the loyal 32 and a knight?
    There are a couple of Tier 1 Codecies currently existing that don't give a **** about allies:
    - Drukhari...They have some good ally choices, sure. But they're definitely not necessary.
    - Orks
    - Chaos Daemons
    - Thousand Sons... Again, good ally choices, but not necessary.
    - Death Guard. Technically, everything they do, Chaos Daemons do better, and why aren't you playing Chaos Daemons? But the Codex is still very good.
    - Codex AM - Ditto. Allies are allowed. But clearly not necessary.

    Basically, those are the Codecies you Ally into because your Faction's Troops are terrible...And then you eventually you wonder why you just don't keep going.

    That is, the reason you take Allies, is because your Codex doesn't have enough warm bodies and can't generate enough CPs.

    Chaos Marines tried to do a thing, where you get +3 CPs for taking a trash unit. But the problem is they tied the CP bonus to a trash unit.

    Now, some people might see that as the point. If you want something good, you gotta pay the trash tier tax. Except in the real world, people simply wonder why they're paying the tax at all, when they can just take an extra Battalion of Brimstone Horrors and get 5 CPs with 30 bodies.

    I suspect it would have to be something that counters the soup strengths:
    The soup strengths are the ability to have a tool for every problem. Mono-codecies can rarely compete with that...Unless they do.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Are Terminators benefiting from Cover as well?



    It's infuriating that they made fluffy options for Guard, and then never did it for anyone else.
    If they are in cover or Raven Guard, of course. Bringing them to a 0+ save. That, I feel, would actually make shooty terminators really scary. Especially with the extra heavy weapons that you proposed.


    Agreed. I'd like to see some other armies get stuff like that as well.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    If they are in cover or Raven Guard, of course. Bringing them to a 0+ save. That, I feel, would actually make shooty terminators really scary. Especially with the extra heavy weapons that you proposed.


    Agreed. I'd like to see some other armies get stuff like that as well.
    I'd rather just say that they always count as being in cover, but I'm actually more in favor of the plus one wound as simpler, which is often better. Does anything else in the game naturally have a 1+?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    Does anything else in the game naturally have a 1+?
    No. That would be one way to make Terminators unique, I guess.

    That said, I remember in WHFB when things had saves that only ever failed on 1s (I think the best save in the game was -3?), and it was the bad times.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Clearly those advocating for 3 Wound 2+/3++ models have never had to try and shift Wratihblades before they reached them and made their army dissappear. At 45 ppm vs the 41 ppm of Assault Terminators I feel its an apt comparison, except that of course the increased thoughness on the wraithblades is a trade-off for not having a 3++ and S8 hits, just a 4++ and S7 hits. But since its a brick unit, if you throw psychic powers on it you have the fun of dealing with a 2+/3++/5+++ unit with -1 to be hit that can move twice and gets more attacks than they know what to do with. If they park on a crater you'll enjoy the luxury of a 1+ save, which makes many people just give up. Sure, Wraithblades are slow as molasses, but Im still something like 19-0 against IG, Knights and other not-so-mobile armies using them. Mostly because that third wound means 1d3 weapons might as well not bother, and non-DA plasma gets wasted. What little makes it through a 3++ tends to not matter enough,

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Working on using a drop pod assault list with my Minotaurs. Current plans are 4 pods with one assault squad, 2 sternguard and a pod with s 5 man tac squad and a devastator squad with grav cannons. Trying to decide if maybe a second devastator squad with just heavy bolters might be better than one of the sternguard squads(I can rotate the tacs out of the drop pod but I need the troop choice). That nice -2 ap on the first turn seems pretty good with 15 shots hitting on 4s, plus the 20 from the grav cannons. Even better if I put a captain in one of the pods or have my jump pack captain and chaplain close enough to offer their bonus to the unit. This will bring me up to 3 dev squads in total. Whats better on a first turn drop? 4 heavy bolters with an extra -1 AP not right up in the enemy's face or 6 sternguard in rapid fire range with special issue boltguns?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Not sure it quite fits terminators, but what about a rule of ‘only takes 1 wound regardless of weapon’s damage characteristic’? Or ‘halve damage characteristics of weapons targetting this unit’? So dies at same rate as current to massed firepower, but also resistant to plasma etc.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Or ‘halve damage characteristics of weapons targetting this unit’? So dies at same rate as current to massed firepower, but also resistant to plasma etc.
    That's pretty much what Calgar and Abaddon have.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Well sure, and yet Custodes DO have that rule, so make of that what you will. Previous editions dont matter if we are trying to fix the unit to be relevant in the game NOW, even if they can inform design choices / skill names.
    Custodes aren't astartes, and their terminator armour very specifically isn't the same. If nothing else, the fact that they move 6" a turn should be enough to let them get away with it while termies can't.

    Sure, having previous rules not mean anything is fine, but changing how a unit has consistently worked for decades because suddenly everyone absolutely must be able to charge into combat on deepstriking all of a sudden feels off.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    That depends on their point cost. They are survivable enough that if they get in your face you need to devote a fair bit of firepower to getting rid of them, so they accomplish that at least. They are also not survivable enough to stay past 1 turn tying stuff up, so leaving them stuck in combat could give them more staying / annoyance power, if only because you cant shoot at them anymore and most shooty things wont be chewing through a unit of terminators in melee.
    What about units with fly? Could they retreat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    I wonder if we’ll see more of this type of thing going forward? In this case, I don’t think it’s good enough to be the better choice over soup, although apparently it does enable a lot of the stratagems in the new codex, which might make it a less clear choice?
    Maybe? It was one of the more heavily requested things, but making stratagems reliant on being monodex is a quick route to irrelevance unless you also have a dex that is already T1, maybe T2 without those stratagems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Actually, someone brought up giving the Terminators a 1+ save? I think that, along with stripping away their Invulnerable saves and thus, decreasing their points, would likely be enough. I mean, now plasma weapons only bring them to a 4+. A 3+ if they are in cover. Which makes the shooty terminators so much better.
    Most legacy units with invulnerable saves need re-examination as far too often, the invulnerable is effectively useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I might also give them the ability to move and shoot without penalty. That's been a Terminator thing for a long time, and they should get it back.
    Agreed. Old SnP units generally got an equivalent, I don't see why old relentless or similar shouldn't get it too. Termies would be a solid choice for this, though it doesn't help the heavy flamer option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    And then, that's it. That might not fix Assault Terminators, but honestly, so long as Storm Shields are a thing, there really isn't a reason to take Assault Terminators since the Storm Shield does 80% of the work anyways, and can be taken on cheaper units that also move faster. So you'll never take Assault Terminators anyways.
    As long as SS's are 2 points, AT's are mostly redundant, but then, that's a balance issue, not a terminator issue. Keeping AT's at their current price and moving SS's back to 5 points (or 7, or 4, or whatever balances them out to be considered an option instead of an auto-take)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Giving them back Relentless will at least let Assault Cannon Termis be a thing. Also, just knock 5 points off them. The Invuln is bought off by the various other things the Terminator armor forces on you and there's no reason to pay twice in this age.

    Also give Assault Termis another attack. And I mean that in addition to the one they are getting already, for 4 attacks. Should do the trick.
    As above, SS's are too cheap on non-terminator units, but I don't think termies need much of a discount to be balanced, especially not with all the other buffs people are trying to give them.

    Not sure about the extra attack either, but it does make sense since if you are wearing the armour, you're elite 1st company and not there to muck about. Be a nice step between veteran and captain too. Would have to math-hammer if that made them a bit too good vs some things, but it seems reasonable at fist glance if they stay how they are otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Really though, all's Terminators need is the following:
    - Squad Size: Allow them to come in squads of 3-10.
    - Statblock: An extra wound, but not an extra attack.
    - Wargear: Use Space Wolf options for wargear. That is, you can take anything you want, per dude.
    - Abilities: They count as 2 models for the purposes of holding Objectives.
    So, CSM termies, but +1W and with SS's available? Didn't you tell us earlier that CSM termies were trash?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    My problem is you would also pass the extra wound to Blightlords and Paladins, who don't need it, and then we're back to square one where Blightlords and Paladins are the only Terminators worth having...And then there's Custodes.
    Bump their points to compensate for the buffs since they are already competing as is. Easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    That's why they need 3 Wounds. It's not T5 and 2+ Save that makes Custodes good, it's the 3 Wounds. D3 Damage weapons barely work, and 2 Damage weapons are laughed at.
    That and being troops certainly doesn't hurt, and only being wounded on 3's by plasma (or any other anti-tank/heavy weapon) is icing on the cake. T5 is still a pretty big jump over T4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Depends if they can make 1st Turn Charges or not. Of if you made Heavy weapons 2-per-5.
    Heavies should definitely be 2 per 5, everyone has been saying that for at least 3 editions now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    So why should Terminators be better than Assault Marines or Veterans? Or Death Company?
    Cause termies cost more points? Or, if you meant per point, then they shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Which kinda brings me to what I'm saying above. Why should we make Terminators the best option? It's not like Space Marines don't already have good melee units. So I'm fine with Terminators getting a small buff because I do think they are both over-costed and under effective, but I don't want to make them the new 'best melee unit' either.
    Ideally, for both fluff and crunch, termies should be the best at a stand up fight against hardened targets while ASM are a fast bully unit and VV have maneuverability and weapon option to make them more flexible and can be used for either role. All of them should be pointed appropriately though, and that's just not the case at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But what's wrong with a special character just giving <Terminators> re-rolls to Charge?
    Because now that character (and thus chapter) is now effectively mandatory to use terminators because they hand out such a huge bonus. Making it so that only one subfaction can use [unit] is what started all this cause you wanted lysander to be lemartes/shrike, but better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Why are Blightlords good? Well, on top of that, they also have T5 and Ignore Wounds. Who cares if they never use their Invulnerable, they've got Ignore Wounds. If you've got Ignore Wounds, and 2 Wounds, 2 Damage weapons are also a lot less problematic because for every one save you make, you burn up an extra allocated wound. The Disgustingly Resilient is a Nurgle thing. Let them have it. Oh ****, I guess the T5 is also a Nurgle thing. Those are things Blightlords get on top of being a 'basic' Terminator.
    A 5+++ is sooo good for a unit rocking a 2+/5++, it's so good just for the invulnerable that it's basically a 1.25+/3.5++ and then you get it against mortals too, which is something that SS termies really hate. As above with the Custodes, the bump from T5 is pretty damn sizable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Wargear
    Now, the trouble with wargear - in every Codex - is that a weapon is always a weapon, regardless of who wields it. What's the difference between a Captain wielding a Thunder Hammer, Terminators wielding Thunder Hammers, or Vanguard wielding Thunder Hammers?
    ...
    Why can't Vanguard get more attacks? Because a Vanguard isn't defined by their wargear.
    Technically, beyond expected wound output, the difference is points.

    Also, I'd be fine handing out an extra attack to VV, they're meant to be the CC specialists in the chapter, as well as being vets. Let 'em go to town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Now, is it fair that the sole Chapter that can re-roll Charges on Terminators is Black Templars? Is that what people think about when they hear about Black Templars? Terminators Charging out of Deep Strike?
    They are the melee codex compliant chapter and the only 2 people I've known to play BT's have both been all terminators (1 via Land Raiders, the other via DS) , so yeah, I do associate BT's with charging terminators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Now, in previous editions, that has always been my boi, Lysander (who is a Black Templar in all but name) - he even had an Apocalypse Formation built around his ability to push peoples' **** in sideways.
    Not out of DS from what I remember, but then the only guy I ever played who used lysander always used him on foot or in a raider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You shoot, derp. Once again, Storm Bolters aren't special. I can put Storm Bolters on anything, and due to Bolter Discipline, I don't even have to leave my DZ anymore. So why the **** would I throw Terminators <12" from my opponent (and risking an Intercept), when dudes safe in my DZ, in Cover, can do the same job, for less points (and have no risk of being Intercepted)?
    The issue comes that while storm bolters aren't bad on marines, they are bad when those marines cost 35ppm. Like discussed earlier, specials at 2 per 5 makes this a lot less bad. To answer the question though, vanilla termies have the load out they do in order to be versatile. The problem is that it doesn't work cause they pay a premium for their saves, then a premium for their melee and another premium for their guns and none of them are really worth it, let alone the fact that you can't really use both the guns and the fists at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    We also know from 30K, that Terminators are the ****. They're scoring units. Terminators are very good in 30K because they don't get cucked out of Objectives. In 40K? That would translate to Objective Secured. That's fine with me. Grey Knights have 'em as Troops, right? Why not give everyone else, Objective Secured, as Elites? Seems okay. And you wouldn't have to give ObSec to Vanguard or Sternguard because the justification is "Well, are Sternguard or Vanguard immovable brick ****houses, too? Didn't think so."
    (We also know from 30K that running a ****ton of Heavy weapons in a Terminator squad is the point of Terminator warsuits in the first place. Terminators can port weapons that 'normal' Marines, can't.)

    30k also suffers from everything being ap2 and thus, terminator armour is basically the only way to get a save at all. The fact that you can also get a meaningful gun and power weapon certainly doesn't hurt either since you are going to need ap in an all marine all the time meta.

    I'm not sure how obsec is going to help considering small unit size in an era of obsec hordes, but sure, I can see the reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    In conclusion:
    1. +1 Wound,
    2. Terminators can take any wargear they want, in any combination they want. Additionally, add Power Weapons to the Terminator Melee Weapons list,
    3. For every five models in the unit, two models may take a weapon from the Terminator Heavy Weapons. (I will point out that current-rules Deathwatch Terminators can take 3 Heavy Weapons, regardless of how many models are in the squad),
    4. Additionally to Bolter Discipline, if Terminators move, they don't take the penalty to hit when firing Heavy weapons,
    5. Optional and probably not necessary or wanted; Objective Secured.
    I think the extra wound is too much, but I don't know how to make them not plasma-bait any other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    someone who goes heavily into one codex is just as good for them as someone who only buys a few of each range.
    Not even close - if you go heavy into 1 army, you already have everything, so your spending is done and you don't need to buy more models when the meta changes while if you have portions of 2 or more armies, there's always something they can sell you, always something they can nerf so your army isn't playable since you won't have units that were previously trash tier (since you used allies to plug those gaps).

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    I'd rather just say that they always count as being in cover, but I'm actually more in favor of the plus one wound as simpler, which is often better. Does anything else in the game naturally have a 1+?
    Scarab occult terminators, but only vs 1 damage weapons, can get a 0+ save in cover. But who points - 2ap 1damage guns at them? Hell, who even takes them in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    No. That would be one way to make Terminators unique, I guess.

    That said, I remember in WHFB when things had saves that only ever failed on 1s (I think the best save in the game was -3?), and it was the bad times.
    You didn't have mortal wounds that gave 0 fu...lgrims about enemy saves though. The dynamics aren't quite the same.
    Last edited by Drasius; 2019-08-13 at 11:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    I'd rather just say that they always count as being in cover, but I'm actually more in favor of the plus one wound as simpler, which is often better. Does anything else in the game naturally have a 1+?
    Always counting as being in cover isn't that great though. There are plenty of things that would ignore it. +1 Wound is simpler, but it's much much more powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    No. That would be one way to make Terminators unique, I guess.

    That said, I remember in WHFB when things had saves that only ever failed on 1s (I think the best save in the game was -3?), and it was the bad times.
    It would.

    IIRC, you could get up AP -7 with certain weapons. But really, the worst abuse of that was a Dark Elf Lord, who could have a 1+ save, and a reverse ward save where you had to roll under the strength of the weapon that hit you, with 6 always failing. So no matter what, you basically had a 2+ save.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Not sure it quite fits terminators, but what about a rule of ‘only takes 1 wound regardless of weapon’s damage characteristic’? Or ‘halve damage characteristics of weapons targetting this unit’? So dies at same rate as current to massed firepower, but also resistant to plasma etc.
    That would be too good I think. Abberants have something sorta like that (-1 to the Damage characteristic, minimum 1), and it makes them an utter pain to clear with the only good way to do it being massed fire. And they only have a 5+/5+++ to keep them alive with their 2 wounds.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    ObSec hordes is one of the biggest mistakes GW did in designing 8th. To honestly balance objective-holding, ObSec would have to be written more like "For holding objectives, this model counts as 2/3/4" depending on the unit. A unit of 10 Tactical marines equivalent or 5 Terminators would then be equivalent to 20 Guardsmen!

    ObSec being just "own it unless another ObSec unit comes by" and then being given to Guardsmen and Cultists really swings things even more in horde's favour, in addition to the cheap CP-batteries!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Why? I'm serious. Cheesegear kinda brings it up, but there is so much redundancy in the Space Marine codex simply from how massive it is. It's almost impossible to not make something the best choice for a role, because every role has multiple units competing for that role. So something will end up being the best, and then that's the only one you take. And that's before you get into taking allies.

    So why should Terminators be better than Assault Marines or Veterans? Or Death Company?
    Well, Vets are already better than Assault Marines, who's only advantage in that matchup is being cheaper, but not enough. Death Company is BA only, so I'm going to ignore them for this.

    Veterans are:
    Highly Customizable
    Very Fast
    Reasonably Priced
    Very Killy

    Terminators are:
    Very Durable

    So if we add Very Killy to Terminators we haven't made them better. Maybe they are more killy than Veterans, but that still lets Veterans be more maneuverable and very customizable. There isn't a whole lot of Melee combatants in the vanilla SM Codex, so having Vets and Terminators be the Glass Cannon/Glacial Bruiser combo wouldn't take either one out as the secondaries would still make them viable, just for different needs.

    As for Allies...this would require me to redesign the entire game and if I did I would make the factions much larger, as Imperium would be a single faction, because they basically are at this point.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    ObSec hordes is one of the biggest mistakes GW did in designing 8th. To honestly balance objective-holding, ObSec would have to be written more like "For holding objectives, this model counts as 2/3/4" depending on the unit. A unit of 10 Tactical marines equivalent or 5 Terminators would then be equivalent to 20 Guardsmen!

    ObSec being just "own it unless another ObSec unit comes by" and then being given to Guardsmen and Cultists really swings things even more in horde's favour, in addition to the cheap CP-batteries!
    We've been playing new!Maelstrom and out of 5 wins I havent scored a single Secure X / Defend X, because they arent even in the deck. But even from old!Maelstrom, the one 'Secure' I usually scored was Domination (thats the 3 objectives, right?) through Rangers coming in, and then ignored the others and just proceded to cycle the deck. So unless you're playing Eternal or I dont know ITC? its not like it matters terribly much.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Remember, regardless of what you give Blightlords, they will still take the majority of your opponent's army to destroy, and even then, not a sure thing.
    I dunno, I wrecked a 10 man squad of Blightlords with a couple of units of storm troopers and Pask in an Executioner in about a turn once.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I dunno, I wrecked a 10 man squad of Blightlords with a couple of units of storm troopers and Pask in an Executioner in about a turn once.
    Talk to me when it's a regular thing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Talk to me when it's a regular thing.
    point Dark Reapers at them and they tend to go poof. Usually through Forewarned as they make their silly termie trick. Or they land somewhere silly, like in position to charge a bunch of Rangers, and then get ignored for the most part until they can be shot to hell by crimson hunters or die to a bunch of guardians.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    But he wasn't talking about dark reapers, he was talking about storm troopers and pask. We know reapers delete most things they look at.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I dunno, I wrecked a 10 man squad of Blightlords with a couple of units of storm troopers and Pask in an Executioner in about a turn once.
    Were the Blightlords paired with a trio of Plaguebursts and a few Bloat Drones?
    Not saying it can't be done, and especially anecdotally. If I play my Crimson Fists, my Hellblasters get to shoot three times in a round, they'll easily drop a unit of Blightlords.

    The problem is that most Factions don't have access to 10+ Plasma shots per turn.

    If you told me that you killed a unit of 10 Blightlords in one turn with a Knight Crusader and change, I'd believe that too.

    The problem is that against most armies that aren't Tier 1 (e.g; not Imperial Guard), Blightlords are going to give you some serious trouble, especially if you're building your army to compete against hordes. Similarly, it's not that 5 Centurions are hard to deal with, they're only T5 with a 2+ save, 3 Wounds. But get a Smash Captain into Melee with them and they're all dead in one turn.
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