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  1. - Top - End - #1411
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Conquest is more or less First Strike / Know no Fear
    Over 80 issues you can get some pretty good stuff.
    That said, to get all 80 Issues, you have to be subscribed for like...Six years?

    Conquest is a Europe thing, right? So it should be pretty easy.
    Pretty sure it's everywhere. It's just that the rollouts have happened at different times. I think if you signed up day-of-rollout, in Australia, you'd only be up to around Issue 20.

    Both named HQs are not good enough for their $ cost.
    Nightspear ignores Death Guard T5, and his 3 Damage drops Primaris Marines and blows through Ignore Wounds fairly easily.
    If I was tailoring to exclusively play Primaris Marines and Death Guard, Nightspear is one of the first things I'd pick up.
    (Unless the Death Guard player is picking up loads of Poxwalkers, then I'd switch to Maugan Ra)

    Nah, yeah; $ cost. Fair enough.

    Eldrad is great, but it locks you into Ulthwe.
    If you're playing Open Play, it doesn't really matter.

    An Autarch is pretty solid, and remember he can get a Dark Reaper weapon from the Index
    I don't rate Index anymore - especially to new players. The books themselves are OOP and GW has made it clear that they don't intend for those units to remain in the game.

    What do you aim a hemlock at fighting Starter marines?
    Literally anything. 2 Damage a pop with auto-hits will wipe entire units in a single turn. (Edit: Starcannons do the cleanup, not the grunt work)
    That said, Aggressors and Inceptors both have 3 Wounds now. So I guess it depends where in Conquest that they're up to.

    Also yes:
    - Battlescribe
    - Datacards
    - Open War cards. Optional, but strongly recommended.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-23 at 02:06 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1412
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Over 80 issues you can get some pretty good stuff.
    That said, to get all 80 Issues, you have to be subscribed for like...Six years?

    Pretty sure it's everywhere. It's just that the rollouts have happened at different times. I think if you signed up day-of-rollout, in Australia, you'd only be up to around Issue 20.
    Itís weekly, not monthly. Donít know about Australia, but UK is currently on about #50. Some of the deals are ridiculous: I got three Plagueburst Crawlers for about the price of one by buying multiples of its issues.

    The magazine itself is actually pretty good for beginners as well, as it shows models as they should look with the paints they have, rather than the eavy metal standard, and gives very simple yet detailed guides to achieving the results.

    Edit: full breakdown of contents and value by issue, including stuff like paint: https://www.fauxhammer.com/news/spoi...ntents-leaked/
    Last edited by Avaris; 2019-08-23 at 01:57 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #1413
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Itís weekly, not monthly.
    It is!?
    In that case we're somewhere between 30 and 40...If you started at launch, that is.

    So 80 issues is...~18 months? Definitely not a terrible deal when you look at it altogether. But, 18 months is a long time to spend building an army.

    I got three Plagueburst Crawlers for about the price of one by buying multiples of its issues.
    How are you getting multiple of the same issues? Unless in Europe you can buy issues from the newsagent?

    Here in Australia, it's subscriber-only. You can't buy it in stores, which means you can't get multiple of the same issues. Otherwise I would've have bought the Repulsor issues several times.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-23 at 02:09 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #1414
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It is!?
    In that case we're somewhere between 30 and 40...If you started at launch, that is.

    How are you getting multiple of the same issues? Unless in Europe you can buy issues from the newsagent?

    Here in Australia, it's subscriber-only. You can't buy it in stores, which means you can't get multiple of the same issues. Otherwise I would've have bought the Repulsor issues several times.
    Exactly that: my local Forbidden Planet store gets them in, as do various high street retailers. So I have it on standing order from them, and then buy extras of certain issues. The Repulsor is pretty much the last thing you get, but even across 4 issues itís a saving.

    Edit: you can also buy individual issues direct: https://hachettepartworks.com/warhammer-40000-conquest

    Edit 2: direct subscribers get other stuff as well, like a painting handle. Overall it is a very good product for beginners, containing the complete contents of Dark Imperium plus various other things. There are a few questionable choices in there, like SM bikes and 2 copies of the EtB plague marines early on, but overall itís a great thing to split with a friend in order to get agood collection of models and paints.
    Last edited by Avaris; 2019-08-23 at 03:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Conquest sort of does off with points because they do it narrative with preset forces for the scenarios. My group is still waiting for the next packet. Australia is actually sending them once a month, 4 issues in one packet each time, to save on shipping. At the moment, the DG doesn't even have Lord Felthius or his terminators, they're coming this month (still waiting), so at most their current leader is the Foul Blightspawn.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollysword View Post
    Conquest sort of does off with points because they do it narrative with preset forces for the scenarios. My group is still waiting for the next packet. Australia is actually sending them once a month, 4 issues in one packet each time, to save on shipping. At the moment, the DG doesn't even have Lord Felthius or his terminators, they're coming this month (still waiting), so at most their current leader is the Foul Blightspawn.
    Yeah, UK subscribers also get a single delivery of 4/month. Iíve been hearing about all sorts of problems in them actually turning up. Also, watch out for the add ons they auto charge you for, like the Silver Templars sourcebook, which is priced at an additional £20 here and automatically added to orders unless you tell them not to. Has no rules or anything to make it worthwhile!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    I heard about that, artbooks and such. Would be better if they ask us first if we want the add on, not automatically add it and only remove if we tell them to. Complete opposite of what's normal to do when it comes to add ons.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Yeah, UK subscribers also get a single delivery of 4/month. Iíve been hearing about all sorts of problems in them actually turning up. Also, watch out for the add ons they auto charge you for, like the Silver Templars sourcebook, which is priced at an additional £20 here and automatically added to orders unless you tell them not to. Has no rules or anything to make it worthwhile!
    How else would they offset the discounts though.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    How else would they offset the discounts though.
    I guarantee you that someone in corporate thought of this, despite the fact that their profit margin per model is already nuts
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollysword View Post
    I heard about that, artbooks and such. Would be better if they ask us first if we want the add on, not automatically add it and only remove if we tell them to. Complete opposite of what's normal to do when it comes to add ons.
    That's not an add-on; that's a rip-off!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    That's not an add-on; that's a rip-off!
    It's pretty standard business practice.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    This is apparently how it works.

    1. If you're a canon Chapter, you're automatically a Successor of the Chapter it says you are. (Objective punishment/reward for subjective player preferences in their hobby)
    2. If you have Inheritors of the Primarch, you're automatically a Successor of that Chapter. (Makes sense)

    3. If you have neither of the above - including having custom Successor Tactics - you can choose to be a Successor of any Chapter you want.

    If you are a Successor of a Chapter, you can use their Supplement, however, unless you have the Keyword on the front of the Supplement, you'll face certain restrictions (e.g; Loss of access to named Characters and Relics).

    Surely the bit in red needs to be Errata'd.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Well if you all were hoping that the August 2019 Errata of Warhammer 40,000 Killteam was going to buff Adeptus Astartes or have proper corrections and update them to have stats akin to Codex 8.2, allow me to curb your enthusiasm.

    There's a clarifications on a few rules, but otherwise, the main thing is clarifying Dark Angels Chapter Trait: Grim Resolve and removing the Stealth Commander Specialist that was given to non-commanders. But that's it.

    Captains in Phobos Armor (Elite Expansion):and 3 Damage Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbines? Nope
    Lieutenants in Phobos: Still have a "Close Combat Weapon", which still doesn't give +1 Attack like Chainswords or Combat Knives ("But its balanced on Knife Fighter's bonus!" shouts the the GW Balance team, to which I say "This is KT, that's not a justification)
    Eliminators with Strength 5 Bolt Sniper Rifles? Nope (especially with KT: Elite adding additional units with more weapon options)

    There's no Designer Explanation either like "We think this might be too good for the value in KT, so we didn't change it". So instead it comes off more as "No one in Play-Testing/Rule Designs/etc is bothering to talk among each other in between game systems."



    Anyways, maybe I'll write up a KT: Elites Astartes review latter.

    EDIT: I mixed up the Equipment for Captains and Lt. in Phobos
    Last edited by Razgriez; 2019-08-25 at 10:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Well if you all were hoping that the August 2019 Errata of Warhammer 40,000 Killteam was going to buff Adeptus Astartes or have proper corrections and update them to have stats akin to Codex 8.2, allow me to curb your enthusiasm.
    to be fair its not like they need buffs in kill team anyway.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Captains in Phobos Armor (Elite Expansion): Do they finally get +1 Attack with their "Close Combat Weapon"
    Yes. Old wargear entries (including the Scouts' and Reiver's combat knives) were not reprinted because they were redundant. Otherwise the captain's bolt pistol wouldn't do anything at all, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    to be fair its not like they need buffs in kill team anyway.
    There's a case to be made that they needed a buff pre-elites, but that was more due to limited access to special weapons. Which elites fixed. But Assault Bolters weren't hurting as hard (Since, as a side-grade at best to the bolt rifle, Kill team sensibly made them free), and the vanguard primaris stuff has its own prices in Kill team that would need to be adjusted. Stalker bolt rifles are left in a bad place, but the Intercessor Sergeant is the main draw anyway, and his power sword means the other guns are better choices, so I wouldn't call the changes high priority.

    As for the new options... Incursors' ability could be problematic in a game as rife with to-hit penalties as kill team*, the Infiltrator comms array wouldn't translate well, and would probably just end up being a comms specialist tax like the helix axept. That leaves Reaver Lieutenants, and... meh. Lieutenants are for cheap strategist commanders. Spending more points on what's probably worse wargear than a power sword or assault bolter isn't a great plan.

    So I guess it's mildly annoying, but it would have meant errata'ing the point costs, and digging through 3 books when building a roster is annoying enough as is.

    *E.G. With use of melt into shadows and lurk, it's possible to make an opponent suffer a -5 penalty to hit Deathleaper at long range
    Last edited by Squark; 2019-08-25 at 03:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    So, it's been a very slow weekend 'cause I'm still figuring out how the new Marine Codex works. With nothing really to add, I thought I'd finally get around to updating the OP, 'cause we're nearing Page 50 and a new thread.



    I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?
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    The best and most obvious way to start is either a) Dark Imperium, or b) Know No Fear. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Death Guard army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Death Guard, you will almost definitely want to look into Start Collecting! boxes - with a few exceptions.

    *Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Codecies, an 'Astartes' army - in this context - could mean Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves, and, at the very outside, you could even start a Deathwatch army with Dark Imperium or KNF. The models found in Dark Imperium/KNF, work best with Dark Angels or Space Marines. But, until you have a Codex (or even just Datacards), you don't have to make that decision.

    However, just having the models, isn't really enough to play the game - you will need a rulebook. Dark Imperium comes with a rulebook, whilst Know No Fear, doesn't. That being said, Games Workshop offers the core rules to play the game on their website. So, if you can't afford a rulebook, and you just want to start playing the game with your friends, as long as you're matching Power Rating, you should be mostly okay...Mostly.

    Also, you need dice. ~30 is a good number to have. Any excess dice you have can be used for wound counters, or to keep track of Command Points (if you don't know what those are yet, that's fine). But, just as a frame of reference, the Inceptors you get in Dark Imperium/KNF, they roll 18 dice to hit. Additionally, try and have different colours of dice. It will speed up your games.

    Also, you'll need Terrain. If you don't have terrain on the board, the game vastly swings to playing a certain way, and all other units that don't play that way, are terrible... You don't want that. But we'll circle back to this.

    Additional Resources that you will want:
    - Battlescribe; Battlescribe is a free App for Mobile and PC (however, you can pay for it to remove ads). It's incredibly useful as it contains all the rules for all your units - including points costs. This greatly increases your ability to play the Matched Play version of 40K, as all's you need to do is plug the units you have, into the App, and you get given an army list complete with rules. However, do be aware that in the real world, when playing a real game, most people don't want to read rules from your phone - however, running it from a tablet, or printing it out, is almost always accepted. Battlescribe is for you, not for your opponents.

    - [Faction] Datacards; If you don't have a Codex, well, Battlescribe doesn't have rules for Stratagems. Your Faction's Datacards provide all the rules you need to run your chosen Factions' Stratagems, while also including all the cards you need to play Maelstrom Missions. Maelstrom is currently the most commonly played format of the game. But, if your playgroup - otherwise known as your 'metagame', or 'meta' - doesn't play Maelstrom, at least you've got all your Stratagems.

    - Open War cards; Open War is exceptionally useful for newer players as it gives you rules for Missions you can play, without having to buy the rulebook. Because of the random nature of the cards - like Maelstrom - you can have a variety of experiences depending on how the cards draw. The rules for Open War also allow for what happens when player has more Points or higher Power Rating than their opponent. Which can sometimes act as a balancing factor. However, those 'extra rules' can be very swingy depending on the units or army you have, so the better idea is to simply try and even out the points costs and ignore those rules.
    While Open War cards aren't required to play the game (GW offers the Core Rules for free), they will give you a decent experience of the game until you can get your hands on the rulebook and/or the most current edition of Chapter Approved.

    - Spin-down Dice; What? Okay, Magic: The Gathering (and others, but M:TG is the most obvious) produces spin-down d20s. These are d20s where the numbered sides are consecutively next to each other, which makes them incredibly useful as wound counters, Victory Point and Command Point trackers, additionally, they can't be accidentally picked up when you need more d6s to roll. They come in several different coloursm, just in case. GW themselves, sells 'Wound Trackers', but, they are in fact, just regular d10s.


    ...Points? ...Power Rating? What's the difference?
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    Both units of measurement are ways of keeping the game balanced. If one player's army is vastly superior to their opponent's, that's not a very fair game, is it? If you think that you're just going to 'put down everything you have on the table', well, that might work for smaller games. But once you get larger collections, what you have, and what your opponent has, may be very different collections and just...No.

    Power Rating; Power Rating is the easiest method to play the game. Your unit is always Rated the same, regardless of what wargear has. Whether your model has a Chainsword, or Thunder Hammer, still costs the same. This makes it incredibly easy to make army lists because you just put down your unit without regards to wargear. However, if everything costs the same, then the Good Stuff, costs exactly the same as the Bad Stuff, so why isn't everyone taking the Good Stuff all the time? Power Rating is incredibly abusable and all's it takes it a slight desire to start winning games and then the whole thing is ruined. Power Rating is also problematic because the way Games Workshop - allegedly - arrives at a unit's Power Rating makes no sense. Additionally, with the ebb and flow of the meta, with certain units becoming more conducive to winning games than others, no unit in the game's Power Rating has ever been changed.

    Points; Points are exclusively found in your Factions' Codecies (and Battlescribe). The way this works, is that everything has a points cost - even wargear. This means that Bad Stuff costs less points, whilst Good Stuff, costs more points. So, if you - or your opponents - want to start winning games, they're even further limited in what they can take. This is vastly more fair than using Power Rating to decide how to build your army. Additionally, Games Workshop releases points cost changes a few times a year, so, depending on your Codex's age, the points in the back may well be totally redundant, and you're going to want to pick up the most recent edition of Chapter Approved, which GW releases annually. Which is the downside. In order to keep it fair, points need to keep being re-balanced.


    So, what's a good start then?
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    Dark Imperium; The Astartes side is 773 Points, with a Power Rating of 41. The Death Guard are 636 Points with a PR of 34.
    Know No Fear; Astartes; 481 Points, PR 24. Death Guard; 456 Points, PR 25
    (Using the most recent Codex for both Factions, and Chapter Approved 2018)

    Know No Fear is a lot more fair. That being said, even in Dark Imperium, they are designed to be a start to an army, they are not an army, in and of themselves.

    If you don't want Astartes or Death Guard, you're going to want to look at Start Collecting! with the following exceptions:
    - Space Marines, Blood Angels and Primaris Space Wolves; The reason for this is easy. Know No Fear is cheaper, and better (and you can sell off the Death Guard half). The regular Space Wolves SC! box, is...Okay. If it doesn't have Primaris Marines and does have Thunderwolves, get that Space Wolf one.
    - Craftworlds; A pile of Elite and Heavy units is not how you start a Craftworlds army. That being said, if your idea of Craftworlds, involves a bunch of <Wraith Construct> units (e.g; Craftworld Iyanden), then you should absolutely buy it. If it's want you want, get it.
    - Orks; It's...Not great. While yes, it's a more legitimate start to an Ork army than Wraith-units to a Craftworlds army. It's just not a particularly good start.

    Because the Start Collecting! boxes are not fixed models, their points costs and Power Rating is indeterminate at best, because some units are dual kits, and some units have a vast array of wargear available to them. Ask the Thread for optimal builds for particular kits or boxes.


    Terrain - you mentioned it before. Talk about it, now.
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    Terrain...Is good. It slows down Melee armies from destroying you on Turn 1 or 2, and it increases your defense against Shooting attacks so you don't automatically lose on Turn 1 against a gunline. Wargaming terrain is an extremely fun hobby project where you can find hundreds of tutorials online to scratch-build almost anything you want. If you want to be even more creative than that, you can even theme your terrain to your army!

    A good rule of thumb is that anywhere between 33% and 50% of your table space should be covered in terrain.
    - 4x4' (low point games): You'll want 6-8 pieces of terrain with a combined total of a 1.3 - 2 foot square.
    - 6x4': You'll want 8-12 pieces of terrain, combining between 2'x4' and 2x6'.

    Not only that, but you'll also want (trust us) terrain that fully blocks Line of Sight. That is, terrain that is a solid mass that you can't see through. Examples might include Buildings or Statues. Small boards want at least one, and large boards want at least two. It's also a good idea to create terrain that partially blocks Line of Sight. That is, some of the terrain, you can't see through, but other parts, you can. A good example of this might be a shelled-out Ruin. Where the foundations of the Building are intact, and thus, built like a wall. While the upper levels of the Building have been hit by explosive attacks like an air raid, and thus the walls are not so intact and you can see through them.

    If your community has a gaming hub (such as a gaming store, or club), if those places are any good, they should have enough terrain for all of their gaming tables, and you don't really need to worry about this. If your local hub doesn't have enough terrain for its tables - or its terrain is just...Bad, and for example, doesn't block LoS - see if you can get involved in your community and organise a terrain building hobby day, or a challenge month or something, where terrain made is donated to the hub. More, better and diverse terrain in your hub benefits everybody, and your community manager should be on board for such an idea.

    Obviously, you can simply just buy Games Workshop terrain. But then you kind of only get to use what they can sell you. If that's what you want, well, it's less work than making your own terrain, that's for sure.

    While we're here, a 4x4' board is typically used for games below 1000 Points (or <50 PR), and a 6x4' board is anything bigger. The rulebook - if you have one - will tell you this.


    I've heard about Conquest. What's that about?
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    Conquest Magazine is a subscription service with a total of 80 issues (some people report 1 per week, others report 4 per month, depends on your country and how shipping works). Over the course of almost two years, you will build up solid collections for Space Marines, Death Guard, and you will get a whole load of terrain. Additionally, the Magazine itself, comes with Missions, paints and paint brushes and will literally help you build up your hobby at a reasonable pace without overwhelming you.

    Conquest is great for people with limited time and limited funds, but who still want to get into the hobby. The main issues with Conquest is that the models you get are fixed - so here's hoping you like Astartes and/or Death Guard - and that it takes almost two years to finish. So if you're looking to dive right into the hobby, and start playing lots of games within six months with a strong, personalised army...Then Conquest probably isn't for you.

    On a personal note, if Conquest had been a Thing when I was a University student, I absolutely would have bought into it.


    This is so expensive!
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    So is buying a gaming console, and a game every month. So is buying a bunch of power tools, buying wood and learning home carpentry. Warhammer is a hobby, same as anything else. If you want to spend a little bit of money, you can. There are game modes where GW attempts to tell you that you don't need to spend a lot of money (but in actual fact you do, if you want to be good at it). If you want to spend a lot of money on the hobby, you can do that, too.

    It's not called 'plastic crack' for nothing, and it doesn't make significant others mad for no reason.

    Most independent gaming stores will sell GW products at -20%, and of course there's 'Battlescribe & Datacards = A Codex'. But, additionally, you can search internet to see if people are selling their models at a decent price. There are very affordable - and mostly safe - ways to strip paint from models if you see a bad paint job on models you want. That being said, the reason people most often sell their models is 'cause they aren't any good on the table. While that isn't the case all the time, it is the case...A lot. If you see a good deal, just make sure that they're models you actually want.


    Wait...So you weren't kidding, there actually is 'Bad Stuff' in the game?
    Spoiler
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    Unfortunately...Yes. The good news is, what's bad or good, depends on your meta. It's always useful to check out what other players are playing, and build to your meta.


    Build to my meta?
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    What works for someone on the other side of the world, or Hell, just 200kms north of you, might not work for you, because their local meta, is different to yours. The only person who truly knows what you need to buy for your army, is you, and you only learn that, by talking and engaging with your other local players. Of course, you can build to the meta, and run some or all of the best units in the game. But, if your meta is even slightly reasonable, there's a good chance that you don't need - or probably even want - to run the best units in the game because your opponents don't play their armies that way.
    ...But, of course, they might, too.


    So what am I here for?
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    Other perspectives and opinions. A lot of people play the game a certain way that they enjoy - it's a hobby, after all. That means that even if you talk to people in your meta, the advice you get given will only be relevant to their skill ceiling and knowledge base. If no-one in your meta plays Necrons, it's probably fair to say that not many people in your meta have experience playing with or against Necrons, and thus, their advice will be limited. There's a chance that you could ask everyone in your meta for advice, and get no helpful directions.

    It's also pretty fair that if you ask your opponents how to beat them, they're not going to tell you - why would they? It's also pretty fair that if you're asking your local store manager how to build an army, that your manager will make recommendations that end up with you spending the most money possible. It's a ****ty thing to do, but it is realistic.

    Mostly, the internet is for looking for competitive advice. If you are looking to win games, the internet will tell you how. Mostly, the internet will talk about the meta. That is, objectively, there are units in the game that are more suited to playing to the win conditions of the game, than other units. Internet discussion usually revolves around either taking those units, or taking units that counter those units, sometimes with a third 'meta-buster' build that is reasonably good against the unit and counter-unit.

    Now, if your meta, doesn't have people running those units, then talking about the meta, only goes so far. However, even taking 'sub-optimal' units, can still win games. A unit that's rated 8/10 is still pretty good, even if it's not 'the best' and will still cause problems given the chance.

    If you're having fun, playing what you want to play...Then talk about that.


    So can I take sub-optimal units that I like the look of, and still win games?
    Spoiler
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    That's the elephant in the room...And the answer, at best, is only 'Maybe.'

    If having fun and doing hobby is what you care about, no-one can tell you how to have fun. No-one can tell you not to have fun - especially if you don't know them 'cause they're some dude on the internet and who cares what they think anyway? If you're having fun doing whatever it is you're doing, then you keep doing it. If, by some miracle, you're winning games while also taking like, units rated 5/10, 4/10 or worse, then who cares? You're playing with models you want, and you're winning games. Keep doing exactly what you're doing.

    If the units or models you like are Not Good, and potentially contributing to you losing every game - and that matters to you. Well, that sucks. The units you like, are bad, they don't perform, and you have to buy new models. What you have doesn't work, you should probably replace it. Or, at the very least start cutting up the models you do have and start giving them new wargear. Everyone understands that this feeling sucks, and it sucks even harder that you've potentially wasted a lot of money. That's why making sure you know what you want to buy, before you buy it, is so important. That being said, GW can just nerf what you like into the ground and then what do you do?

    At the end of the day, the important point you should know is that 'I want to have fun,' and 'I want to have fun...And win games,' are quite often different conversations.


    So, are some Factions are better overall than others?
    Spoiler
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    As previously mentioned, some units are more or less suited to winning games than other units. The more of these units a Faction has, the better or worse they are at winning games. So, unfortunately, the answer is 'Yes.' While it's certainly possible to win games with any Faction in the game, your ability to win games is dependent on what your opponents are running (i.e; Go back to your meta, see what people are running and how they play). If your meta is full of people who are playing cutting edge, top of the meta lists, there's a pretty good chance that you wont be able to just put down any unit you like and still have a good game...And that sucks.

    But, for better or worse, Games Workshop has both officially and unofficially-by-game design stated that allied Factions are an intended part of the game, and that they're not going anywhere:
    1. This means that they don't have to write 'complete' Factions that can do everything, all the time, because you - a player/consumer - can plug the holes in your preferred Faction's tactics by adding another Faction that is good at it. This makes game design very forgiving on GW's end, especially for Imperium and Chaos factions.
    2. As a business, they sell you a more diverse range of models, so that certain kits don't just stay on the shelf forever and lose money by existing.

    If you don't want to include a second or even third Faction in your army (not least in part 'cause it requires spending more money), that's a choice you are fully allowed to make. But, if there's a choice in another Faction that does do what you need a unit to be able to do, and you are choosing not to take it, well...What can be said?


    I can't paint.
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    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    WarhammerTV (YouTube) has several beginner guides on how to paint almost any model that GW sells. Also, as mentioned, Conquest Magazine is excellent if you want to learn how to paint Ultramarines and/or Death Guard and/or a bunch of GW's terrain features. Other than that, other YouTube channels also do painting tutorials, there are a whole bunch of blogs that also occasionally talk about how they painted their models. If you want to learn how to paint something specific, there's almost definitely a guide for it, somewhere.

    If you want to get better at painting, full stop:
    a) Make sure you have different sized paint brushes for different tasks - not every brush is useful, all the time.
    b) Develop your fine motor skills. It takes practice. You wont be good at it for a while. Don't worry about bad paint jobs. When you get better, just strip them.

    GW also has a Contrast Paint range, which is very helpful for getting people who don't want to paint, to paint. If painting for you is too hard, or too time-consuming, then make sure to look those up. Though, there are a number of stories where at the higher end of the painting scale, when you start getting good, Contrast Paints don't actually save you time, and are harder to use than normal paints (e.g; Once you learn drybrushing, it is both quicker and easier than Contrast).




    There are a couple of sentences in there where I feel like I'm not getting the point I want to get across, correctly. But, then again, I'm me. I'm rather infamously not able to be my own editor. If you see something you feel is wrong or needs to be clarified, make me change it.
    ...It's also probably way too long.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-26 at 06:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Random Necromunda question: Any tips for a Van Saar gang?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    For Conquest I'd put a note that it's only available for subscription in a handful of countries, so only really works if you're lucky enough to live where they ship.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    I think my main comment is that theres so many words oh my god. For example, the Points vs Power Level section could be:

    Points and power level are different ways of comparing the overall strength of an army: for a fair game, whichever you use, both armies should be about the same. Power Level is much less granular than Points and only very roughly tracks the strength of a squad, whereas points are far more precise. It's very easy to "break" games balanced through Power Level, so its best only to use it if you and your opponent agree to play very casually.

    Power level is written anywhere you can get a model's datasheet: points are only found in the codexes and Battlescribe.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Random Necromunda question: Any tips for a Van Saar gang?
    Two Special Weapons are better than one Heavy Weapon despite being (nearly) comparable in price. They're also better compatible with your shooting skills - Hip-Shooter on someone with a Template weapon can be a horrible surprise for an opponent who doesn't know about it.

    Similarly, anything with Rapid Fire being paired with the Fast Shot skill. Note how Rapid Fire lets you target multiple models within 1" of each other, and then also note how your opponent has Gangers standing next to his Champions so as to be activated early?
    Early on in the game, being able to pin 2 or 3 enemy fighters where they have deployed with just one of your own can create a huge disruption for your opponent's plans. It's also a very convenient way to focus a lot of shots on one target to make sure they go down if you need to - Fast Shot on a combi-plasma is seriously scary.

    Due to the nerf in Gangs of the Underhive, Blaze is strictly better than Rad-Phage if you're trying to decide on which Special Weapons to take. They're both now 4+ to affect the target, but you won't run into another gang who are inherently immune to Blaze like Van Saar are to Rad-Phage.
    I also think that being panicked/taking a s3 hit every turn until they spend several actions to put the flames out is a more powerful effect that just taking a flesh wound, but I appreciate that can be circumstantial.

    I'm not a fan of the of the Hystrar energy shield. The concept is cool and it looks great, but as a melee weapon it's pretty bad and the importance of your character's field of view can often mean it's just better (and cheaper) to take a suit of Mesh Armor and a Shock Baton to parry with. For this same reason, you similarly don't want Shock Staves; Parry is far more valuable than +1s and the ability to punch someone 2" away.

    I haven't yet found a reason to take a meltagun or plasma gun. Unless you regularly face an enemy gang who has brought along an Ambot or other Brute, s4 and a few s5 are usually adequate to take down everything else with ease. And if your opponent DOES have a Brute, that means he probably spent more than 20-25% of his starting money on one model, so you can ignore it and shoot the other guys until they fail their break test and run away.

    Speaking of Brutes; unless your opponent has brought one, you are very likely to be outnumbered by a model or two. Accept that, and plan your turns so that you're firing more shots than your opponent in order to compensate.

    Combing points 2 and 5; Combi-plasmas are cool. They're cheaper than Plasma Guns, you generally don't *need* to overload for s7, and you have the lascarbine as a backup if you Rapid Fire/Fast Shot one too many times and you run out of ammo, thus saving you the price of a pistol.

    Nobody needs two plasma pistols or two handflamers. NOBODY. Those models are stupid models, for stupid people.

    I like Suppression Lasers a lot. They have decent range and having s4 shots as standard is very intimidating. Don't bother with the broad burst setting unless you're targetting someone who already has a flesh wound/has been hit with Rad-Phage, as Scattershot with s2 can have it's uses but statistically adding extra steps between "hit" and "wound" can be treacherous.

    Your biggest weakness is that your ranged weapons are great but your selection of melee weapons is comparatively poor, or otherwise very expensive. Try to be as efficient as possible with who gets a melee weapon/pistol and who just gets a rifle, or at least make damn sure that an enemy with any above-average melee weapon is a high priority to shoot at until they go out of action as early as possible.

    My Van Saar Gang generally looks something like this, and has thus far either won comfortably or lost by only the narrowest of margins (about 3-1 ratio):
    Spoiler
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    Leader
    - Combi-las/plasma, Shock Baton, Mesh Armour
    - Skill: Fast Shot

    Champion
    - Radgun or Flamer, Laspistol or Shock Baton
    - Skill: Hip-Shooter

    Champion
    - Suppression Laser, Shock Baton
    - Skill: Fast Shot

    2x Ganger
    - Las-carbine

    2x Ganger
    - Suppression Laser
    Last edited by Wraith; 2019-08-27 at 04:37 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #1431
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So, it's been a very slow weekend 'cause I'm still figuring out how the new Marine Codex works. With nothing really to add, I thought I'd finally get around to updating the OP, 'cause we're nearing Page 50 and a new thread.

    *snip*



    There are a couple of sentences in there where I feel like I'm not getting the point I want to get across, correctly. But, then again, I'm me. I'm rather infamously not able to be my own editor. If you see something you feel is wrong or needs to be clarified, make me change it.
    ...It's also probably way too long.
    Looks good to me!

    On a side note, I really like how orange looks with red.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2019-08-26 at 06:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    So, doubles tournament just passed us by, with a win by a double chaos marines team. People suck at dealing with havocs apparently, making me pull my hair because I cant play and TO at the same time.

    All matches but the final round's top table were pretty close affairs; the new!Maelstrom format actually lets people score things every turn, so there is a lot of proactive play and counterplay. We've also seem to have moved into a mostly 'large models' meta, but thats a given considering the use of chess clocks.

    Special mention to a Necron / Space Wolf team for being champs and joining despite it being like their third game total. They did surprisingly better than expected, because large models = D6 damage weapons = quantum shielding shines. Destroyers are as scary as usual, and space wolves is still a stone tied around a player's neck. They need a fix badly.

    Anyways, singles tournament is coming in 2 weeks, same format, 1750 pts. We have a friend who is joining despite being mostly a hobby-focused guy, and he wanted help with his list. At first glance it throws a ton of red flags for me, but I might be biased so if people could take a look and make suggestions, that would be great. FW is allowed up to 270 points, and what he is married to is: Imperial Fists, Siegebreaker Cohort, Storm of Fire.

    Spoiler: Imperial Tangerines
    Show

    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [4CP, 737pts]

    Chapter Selection: Imperial Fists

    HQ
    Captain: Power axe, Storm of Fire, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
    Librarian: 3) Null Zone, 6) Psychic Fortress, Force sword, Plasma pistol

    Troops

    Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor
    . Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

    Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    [b]Elites /b]

    Aggressor Squad: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
    . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

    Primaris Ancient

    Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [3CP, 1,010pts]

    Chapter Selection: Imperial Fists

    Specialist Detachment: Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort

    HQ

    Captain in Gravis Armor: Boltstorm gauntlet, Indomitable, Master-crafted power sword, The Eye of Hypnoth, Warlord

    Elites

    Primaris Apothecary

    Heavy Support

    Centurion Devastator Squad
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons

    Centurion Devastator Squad
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons

    Devastator Squad [6 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub
    . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

    Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]
    . Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
    . 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

    Total: [82 PL, 7CP, 1,747pts]


  23. - Top - End - #1433
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post

    Spoiler: Imperial Tangerines
    Show

    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [4CP, 737pts]

    Chapter Selection: Imperial Fists

    HQ
    Captain: Power axe, Storm of Fire, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
    Librarian: 3) Null Zone, 6) Psychic Fortress, Force sword, Plasma pistol

    Troops

    Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor
    . Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

    Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    [b]Elites /b]

    Aggressor Squad: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
    . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

    Primaris Ancient

    Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [3CP, 1,010pts]

    Chapter Selection: Imperial Fists

    Specialist Detachment: Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort

    HQ

    Captain in Gravis Armor: Boltstorm gauntlet, Indomitable, Master-crafted power sword, The Eye of Hypnoth, Warlord

    Elites

    Primaris Apothecary

    Heavy Support

    Centurion Devastator Squad
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons

    Centurion Devastator Squad
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons

    Devastator Squad [6 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub
    . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

    Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]
    . Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
    . 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

    Total: [82 PL, 7CP, 1,747pts]

    My recommendation is to drop the Librarian and the powerfist off the one Intercessor. Pick up an LT instead, and/or an Assassin if he has the points for it. I'm pretty sure the Assassin won't break the Doctrine rule if it comes in as reinforcements. Also make one of the captains a Smash Captain. It can hang around for the counter punch to enemy melee armies.

    Honestly though, with the new Doctrines making all the Bolters AP -1 starting turn 2, and the Imperial Fists getting extra bolter shots on 6+ to hit, I think he'll do decently. He's super vulnerable to melee, but if his ally can fill that role he'll bring a good gunline to the table.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2019-08-26 at 06:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    My recommendation is to drop the Librarian and the powerfist off the one Intercessor. Pick up an LT instead, and/or an Assassin if he has the points for it. I'm pretty sure the Assassin won't break the Doctrine rule if it comes in as reinforcements. Also make one of the captains a Smash Captain. It can hang around for the counter punch to enemy melee armies.

    Honestly though, with the new Doctrines making all the Bolters AP -1 starting turn 2, and the Imperial Fists getting extra bolter shots on 6+ to hit, I think he'll do decently. He's super vulnerable to melee, but if his ally can fill that role he'll bring a good gunline to the table.
    Ah no, this is for singles so no ally. The issue with Bolters, even with AP1, is how bad they are at wounding anything relevant, how prevalent invulnerables and 2+ saves are (ironically, their Ignores Cover chapter trait is now better than before) in our meta. The issue with Smash Captains to hang around is Oathbreaker and Vindicares (also Eliminators). But I'll relay any comments back to him, 'cause Im heavily biased because I keep beating his lists in under an hour (Alaitoc just runs circles around marines, more at 11).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Ah no, this is for singles so no ally. The issue with Bolters, even with AP1, is how bad they are at wounding anything relevant, how prevalent invulnerables and 2+ saves are (ironically, their Ignores Cover chapter trait is now better than before) in our meta. The issue with Smash Captains to hang around is Oathbreaker and Vindicares (also Eliminators). But I'll relay any comments back to him, 'cause Im heavily biased because I keep beating his lists in under an hour (Alaitoc just runs circles around marines, more at 11).
    AP-1 gets the most value because of Invulnerables. I find anyways. Because so many invulnerables are only 1 worse than their regular save. They do have trouble with T5, but the LT should at least help with that. Plus sheer weight of shots. On that note though, maybe he could swap some of those Centurian Devestator Lascannons with Heavy Bolters instead. And he should defiantly put one heavy bolter in the Devestator squad to use Hellfire Shells for. (actually is that stratagem still a thing?)

    The Smash Captain can hide from Vindicares at least. Oathbreakers are straight up BS. The only option is to kill the Knight before it gets to fire, and hey, he has enough Lascannons to kill one at least. With a bit of luck.

    Oh yeah, an Alaitoc Eldar list will rock most Space Marine armies.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Captain: Power axe, Storm of Fire, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
    This guy seems fine. But if he doesn't have a Jump Pack, the Power Axe is fairly pointless. Better off with a Chainsword.

    Librarian: 3) Null Zone, 6) Psychic Fortress, Force sword, Plasma pistol
    What's Null Zone gonna do? The reason NZ has seen a resurgence is because Librarians in Phobos Armour can Infiltrate onto the board, and on Turn 1, in one movement, they can be within 1" of a Knight (EDIT: This was hard nerfed in the new Codex as Tome of Malcador no longer does what it...Did). Regular Librarians, on the other hand, have no business at all running Null Zone. One of the best things to come out of the new Marine book are Chaplains, and especially Catchism of Fire which hands out +1 to wound to a ranged unit. I shouldn't have to tell you how powerful +1 to wound is, and on ranged weapons!? Hot damn!

    Can you tell the Plasma Pistol is making me mad?

    Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor
    . Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist
    But why the Power Fist?

    Aggressor Squad: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
    . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher
    Without a Chaplain, these guys are pretty pointless. S4, AP- is nothing. Even with a billion shots.

    Primaris Ancient
    Yep.

    Specialist Detachment: Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort
    Then you should have a Chaplain.
    Each time you roll a to wound of 6+, do a Mortal Wound to a <Vehicle>. This is one of the best pieces of tech to come out of the new Codex, as it drops Knights hard... But also it dunks on Lord Discordants.

    Captain in Gravis Armor: Boltstorm gauntlet, Indomitable, Master-crafted power sword, The Eye of Hypnoth, Warlord
    I'm really not a fan. I'm guessing the whole point is to have 7 Wounds? Which one is Indomitable? ...Do you mean Iron Resolve? I'm not sure why he has two Captains in the list. Drop the other one for a Lieutenant, drop The Eye of Hypnoth, and pick up Vox Espiritum instead...Or you can lean hard into an unkillable Warlord and go with The Armour Indomitus.

    Primaris Apothecary
    Being 'Primaris' adds nothing to Apothecaries, except force you to pay extra points.

    Centurion Devastator Squad
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    . Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons
    Again, maybe give them +1 to wound, and deal Mortal Wounds to <Vehicles> on a 5+ to wound?
    I can't recommend Chaplains high enough, especially if you're going to run the Siegebreaker Cohort.

    Devastator Squad [6 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub
    . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
    Swap one of these for a Heavy Bolter that deals Mortal Wounds, instead.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-26 at 10:20 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #1437
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Cheese, did you forget about combat doctrines?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Cheese, did you forget about combat doctrines?
    No. I just don't rate Aggressors anymore when Centurions with Hurricanes exist.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-26 at 11:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Cents are also about 100pts more each
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Cents are also about 100pts more each
    wat

    An Aggressor with Auto Boltstorms and Fragstorms is 37 Points each.
    A Centurion with with Heavy Bolters (x2) and a Hurricane is 70. Centurions getting a massive points drop 9 months ago has put them squarely in the Marine meta for a while...After the points drop, they received Bolter Discipline. You know what? Sure.
    I'm aware that nobody has run Space Marines competitively for a long time, so I'll forgive you for not knowing about Imperial Fists Centurions bringing down Knights (which now works better in the new Codex).

    Importantly, 'Fragstorm Grenade Launchers' are not 'Bolt' weapons, which matters if you're Imperial Fists - and you definitely are.
    A Heavy Bolter can deal Mortal Wounds for a CP, but also, on Turn 1 will be the meta buster, S5, AP-2.

    Furthermore, Centurions are obviously part of the Siegebreaker Cohort, where throwing a ****-ton of shots at Vehicles directly equals Mortal Wounds.
    This goes balls out when you throw a Chaplain into the mix.

    Centurions are always Rapid Firing thanks to Bolter Discipline, for a total of 18+(18*.17) shots each. Obviously when you throw in a Captain and Lieutenant, goes rad.
    Agressors have 6+D6+(6*.17) shots each, or, times'd two if they don't move. I don't really have to explain how I feel about models being forced into being stationary and why I don't rate non-Ravenwing Dark Angels that don't run Azrael.
    If you're Ultramarines Aggressors, we'll talk. But we're not.

    The major problem with Imperial Fists Centurions is that they're ignoring Cover twice, which is kinda dumb. But surely that is made up for by the fact that the Siegebreaker Cohort exists and you're dealing Mortal Wounds to a Knight with Bolt weapons.

    If you're not Imperial Fists, you can run the Grav-Cannons and run Gravitic Amplification and push **** in. Of course, you'd still run a single Centurion with a Heavy Bolter for access to Hellfire Shells.

    EDIT:
    The real value arguments are made with Assault Centurions vs. Aggressors.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-08-27 at 12:47 AM.
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