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2019-05-28, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
They sound really close to gem paints imho. Oh, the Nighthaunt paints are said to be an early experiment of what contrast are, so expect to constantly be shaking those pots, or they'll get ruined (much like hexwraith and gloomhaunt do).
Also, they cant be mixed with water or lahmian, you need their own Contrast medium. Which is also said to be good for wet blending with regular paints. Ah, you cant mix colors with regular paint, and unless your volume control is on point dont do vehicles with contrast, it'll get streaky over large flat surfaces. They are also high pigment, so be ready to stain yourself, not that its much of a concern.
Basically, they are specialty paints for specialty painters, or quick slap jobs for mono-colored models like Marines or Poxwalkers. The choice of base color makes quite a bit of difference also, but you dont need the new primers; they are just meant as a neutral base. Since Contrast is see-through, the base hue will greatly affect your end color; its how they said you should make metallics, so i figure there is potential for great things there with experimentation later on.
Edit: Advertising it as a wash is correct, thats what they are, stickier washes sort of like what the ghost paints were. What they are not is 'One Thick Coat' or a good fit for novice painters. They are also quite expensive so trying and failing is going to lead to bad feelings and burning out.Last edited by LansXero; 2019-05-28 at 11:14 AM.
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2019-05-28, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.
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2019-05-28, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I'm going to steal from Kris at miniwargaming here: adjust your color theory with Contrast. Contrast paints is like using your inkjet printer: CMYK. Base paints with layers is RGB.
So if you mess up you need to re-base the mess then re-contrast it. So its better for models with a large majority various shades of the same color.
or you do what I do, Prime the sprue, paint the bits individually, then assemble. painting a guardian's head, body, and gun separately is not what I'd call a challenge.
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2019-05-28, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Depends on the kit, some models dont glue together properly after painting them in the sprue. I know they sell the primers in pots, but succesive re-basing is bound to take away detail, specially if you also mess up the re-basing. Its all down to eye-hand coordination, there is nothing special or magic about contrast; if anything its more runny than regular paints, so that should also be taken into account.
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2019-05-28, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Everything I've seen so far - except in GW's initial 'One Thick Coat' video - indicates that Contrasts are extremely technical paints to use correctly. Slopping on a single coat indiscriminately - what novice painters will do, as that's what it's advertised for - leads to IMO some pretty awful results. Very similar to Glaze-painting a white-undercoated model. It's quick. It's easy. But it looks like **** and it's very easy to make mistakes with.
All of the good results coming out of Contrast Paints are coming from professional and semi-professional painters...Because they're pros.
Of course a Golden Daemon contestant is going to say that Contrast Paints are good. It gives him another option in his paintbox. I've seen pro-painters get fantastic results out of $2.50 tubes of canvas paint. It's not 'cause the tubes of paint are designed for miniatures, or they do something that regular Citadel paint can't do. It's because the painter is literally that good with colour theory, paint mixing and thinning, and has fantastic fine motor skills.
I, personally, will reserve judgement on Contrast paints until I watch my Blackshirt push Contrast Paints onto a 14 year-old 'because it makes painting quick and/or easy', and see how well the beginner does.
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2019-05-29, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Games Workshop in trying to sell products to customers shocker!
Yes, the beginner painter’s results won’t be perfect, but the same is true of the standard approach, and I don’t think anyone’s first results with contrast will be any worse than the equivalent with a classic base/shade/highlight approach. The beginner painter using contrast who gets a poor result would have also got a poor result with normal paints. Sure, you can overall get better results with normal paints, but I’ve not seen any evidence that, in the hands of a 14 year old beginner, contrast is worse than they would otherwise produce (and it may in fact be better).
And then contrast has other advantages to the beginner painter:
- Time. Contrast is quicker to use by far, so even if the first results are ‘bad’ you can iterate more quickly than with other paints. That helps develop skills faster. Say it takes three models to get your brush control to an ok level: that applies to both standard approach and contrast. Yet by replacing base/shade/highlight with a single step you can get to the three model level much quicker. And it needs to be complete models, not just time spent, so that you can understand how things look when you finish. Someone painting three models with contrast will learn far more basic brush control than someone who spent the same time doing one model.
- Money. On the surface, Contrast paints are more expensive. But looking at the total cost they’re likely to be cheaper. To paint a three colour contrast model you need primer plus three paints. To paint the same colour scheme with normal paints you need primer, 3 base paints, 3 shade paints and 3 paints for highlighting. You can probably get away with using a shade over multiple colours, and not everything will need highlighting, but it’s probably still more paints and cost overall, especially when you add even more colours.
So what you’re getting with contrast is the same quality as a beginner for a lower investment in both time and money. It won’t be great, but it should be good enough: I have friends who were at Warhammer fest, and are not professional painters, and they got decent results. I’d ecpect beginners will manage similar.Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.
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2019-05-29, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
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2019-05-29, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
They are actually holding Contrast paints hostage for independent stockists, forcing you to get a full rack of the newer, larger, just as unsellable Air paints. Its been a regular flustercuck, since they got their reps threatening with "no-restocks for the foreseeable future if you dont get the rack".
Yes, the beginner painter’s results won’t be perfect, but the same is true of the standard approach, and I don’t think anyone’s first results with contrast will be any worse than the equivalent with a classic base/shade/highlight approach. The beginner painter using contrast who gets a poor result would have also got a poor result with normal paints. Sure, you can overall get better results with normal paints, but I’ve not seen any evidence that, in the hands of a 14 year old beginner, contrast is worse than they would otherwise produce (and it may in fact be better).
And then contrast has other advantages to the beginner painter:
- Time. Contrast is quicker to use by far, so even if the first results are ‘bad’ you can iterate more quickly than with other paints. That helps develop skills faster. Say it takes three models to get your brush control to an ok level: that applies to both standard approach and contrast. Yet by replacing base/shade/highlight with a single step you can get to the three model level much quicker. And it needs to be complete models, not just time spent, so that you can understand how things look when you finish. Someone painting three models with contrast will learn far more basic brush control than someone who spent the same time doing one model.
I do agree it will be a faster way to go from unpainted grey models to slapped-on shaded mono-color models with a few bits of detail thrown in. But then all that Contrast is is just a fancier basecoat, not very different from a color spray + agrax / nuln or a quickshade dip. And if you do your detailing with Contrast, there is all the rebasing required, so the time difference goes out the window.
- Money. On the surface, Contrast paints are more expensive. But looking at the total cost they’re likely to be cheaper. To paint a three colour contrast model you need primer plus three paints. To paint the same colour scheme with normal paints you need primer, 3 base paints, 3 shade paints and 3 paints for highlighting. You can probably get away with using a shade over multiple colours, and not everything will need highlighting, but it’s probably still more paints and cost overall, especially when you add even more colours.
Contrast paints are almost twice as much as regular paints, and they mix very poorly with each other, and also their consistency makes them more prone to drying up (but thats also on GW's choice of bottle). More than that, you still need some regular paints, as Contrast has no metallics and re-basing fine detail work is ugh.
So what you’re getting with contrast is the same quality as a beginner for a lower investment in both time and money. It won’t be great, but it should be good enough: I have friends who were at Warhammer fest, and are not professional painters, and they got decent results. I’d ecpect beginners will manage similar.
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2019-05-29, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I saw a video on youtube of an expert paint playing with contrast paints. He disproved the one thick coat theory doing a couple primaris blood angels. The one thick coat method looked horrible. Then he decided to use actual skills for the second model and it looked as awesome as one would expect a propainted model to look. Looked like crap on vehicles except for smears and oil stains, that looked pretty cool.
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2019-05-29, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Which video? I'd be interested to see.
My question isn't "Does 1 thick coat of contrast paint look as good as hours painstakingly painted by a mediocre or better painter?", my question is "does one thick coat look passable for someone who would otherwise not have painted their models?". This isn't about a revolution in paint technology that gives you one simple trick that pro painters hate, it's about giving people who otherwise would put grey plastic on the table the incentive to say "hey it looks pretty meh, but at least it's not fresh off the sprue!", which is all I'm asking out of it. I don't think it needs to change the game forever to be a win, and if it is a technical paint skill that people can level up over time as well, but start from a relatively ok point, that's even better.
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2019-05-29, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
That really sucks. The independent stockists I’ve spoken to in the UK seem able to go off piste a bit more in what they order, but being tied into particular stock must be a pain.
This is elementary school level of color theory, but you just need white, black, and like 4 colours to get a full palette. We've done it when we've run wet-blending and wet-pallette workshops, the results can be really good. Shades are just watered-down paint at heart, so you could do lahmian + what you already have (or 'ardcoat for glossy). Or just good old distilled water. Then again, most of what Contrast does can be replicated with Agrax / Nuln so 3 is a bit too much. 3 for highlighting is also exaggerated.
We'll wait and see. When managing other people's money and expectations we tend to err on the safe side. Better to be seen as late adopters or change-resistant grognards than the jerks who overhype the new hotness and sucker people out of their money.Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.
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2019-05-29, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I have a feeling that some people are missing my point.
Spoiler
What's wrong with this advertisement?
What is wrong with saying 'One Thick Coat', in addition to the above picture?
What is the consumer's expectation?
Hint: The answer is not 'time saved'.
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2019-05-29, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Nothing. It's base + Shade, so it's showing combining those steps into one.
Nothing. It will be a thick coat compared to what most people are used to.
The expectation is that you can put on one coat, regulated but without thinning with water (aka t h i c c) and end up with the same effect as basing and washing. Which I would argue is relatively true, depending on how crazy you get with base coats, blending, and multiple layers.
"One Thick Coat" does not mean "scoop it out with a spoon and slap it on haphazardly". But it sure is a lot easier to put on an advertisement than "one coat, thicker than your usual coat but still applied with a measure of accuracy and restraint so as to not haphazardly slop overmuch". I don't think it's false advertising, it just sounds like you're trying to poke holes in a three-word slogan that accurately, if imprecisely, describes the point of the product.
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2019-05-29, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
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2019-05-29, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
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2019-05-29, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
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2019-05-29, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Yeah... No offense to GW but I think I'm gonna give contrast a wide berth.
My granddad always said not to trust magic potions. Though at the time he was talking about those 'Pour this into your engine to fix it.' potions.
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2019-05-29, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Then you'll want to steer clear of the technical paints, because Typhus Corrosion + Ryza Rust gave me rusted weapons with literally no effort and Blood for the Blood God is the easiest way to get a blood effect on a model that I've come across so far.
It's not like Citadel has put out useful painting tools in the past, better just assume this one is trash
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2019-05-29, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Do you:
Find painting tedious and/or difficult?
Have an army that is predominantly a single colour with very few - preferably no - colour-breaks in the predominant areas of the model?
Not actually care if it definitely looks like you put little-to-no effort into painting your models?
If 'No' to all, then you don't want or need Contrasts. Carry on. This is who Contrasts are actually for.
Alternatively, do you paint models to win painting competitions? Do you want to do what you're most likely doing anyway, except faster? In that case, Contrast Paints are just a worse way of zenith highlighting and not using an airbrush.
How GW is marketing:
Do you find painting tedius (but not necessarily difficult)?
Do you have any models at all?
Do you want to put almost no effort into painting your models and then get [result which definitely isn't achieved by 'One Thick Coat' of Contrast paint alone doing all the highlighting and shading with a single colour and very good fine motor skills]?
BUY NOW PLZ.
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2019-05-29, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I'm really only seeing this stuff working right with a few armies:
Mono Color Space Marines
Necrons
Maybe mono color Chaos Marines
I'm not sure about the CSM simple because they have so many extra bits hanging on them. This doesn't work right for Orks as their body is split between being green for skin and brown for the vest and pants and its a fairly equal split. Everyone else tends to have too many colors mixed up.
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2019-05-29, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I'm not sure why you all think "being more careless with paint" and "putting more than one colour on a model" are mutually exclusive. I was plenty sloppy when basecoating the skin and trousers on my bloodreavers this week, and then could tidy it up with more carefully-applied colours for straps, metal, etc. The difference would be, in theory, that that sloppy basecoat is all I need for a good effect. Similarly, if you can't paint, say, power armor trims over a contrast basecoat, you'd have difficulty doing it with standard paints. The all-contrast models are neat but I don't think they're how it's meant to be used.
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2019-05-29, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Last edited by druid91; 2019-05-29 at 12:55 PM.
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2019-05-29, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/
"Paint Revolutionised" as a tagline seems to disagree with you, GW has totally made it about it a revolution in paint technology :v.Last edited by LansXero; 2019-05-29 at 03:43 PM.
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2019-05-29, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
Lets see.
Picture one is missing the primer step. Perhaps.
Picture two is also missing the primer step. Contrast doesnt work without their specialty base paints, so thats the one thick coat of wraithbone or seer grey already. Which cant be too 'thick' because you need clear recesses for Contrast to work its magic, except you cant use water, so use Contrast Medium™.
Its also missing the fact that those yellow and reds either aren't contrast paints or required an additional step of re-basing those areas to apply another coat of contrast on top.
I also think thats much more time consuming than the brushing of nuln the upper model has.
Also:
Nothing. It's base + Shade, so it's showing combining those steps into one.
Nothing. It will be a thick coat compared to what most people are used to.
I'm not sure why you all think "being more careless with paint" and "putting more than one colour on a model" are mutually exclusive. I was plenty sloppy when basecoating the skin and trousers on my bloodreavers this week, and then could tidy it up with more carefully-applied colours for straps, metal, etc. The difference would be, in theory, that that sloppy basecoat is all I need for a good effect. Similarly, if you can't paint, say, power armor trims over a contrast basecoat, you'd have difficulty doing it with standard paints. The all-contrast models are neat but I don't think they're how it's meant to be used.
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2019-05-30, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
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2019-05-30, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2019-05-30, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
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2019-05-31, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I'm saying he doesn't have a Broodlord at all, which surprised me. Also, I see JNA. I genuinely didn't know that, thought it was an either/or. That's...Really weird to me, but whatever.
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2019-06-04, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
So, a question I feel is quite appropriate given the title of the thread:
How important do you think painting is to the hobby?I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2019-06-04, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
I'd say it's important. I may not like painting, but it really does create a connection between you and your models. And seeing the amazing jobs some people do is always a pleasure.
Similarly, if someone doesn't have their stuff painted for a long time and is making no progress it kinda seems disrespectful to the effort the other players are putting in.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.