Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[LansXero]

I find this to be a problem.

If your goal is to paint a model with multiple colours, contrast paints just aren't good. If you've got the kind of brush control that allows you to not make any mistakes with contrast paints, then you've got the brush control to do layering and highlighting.

Which is what baffles me; In order to get a good coat with Contrast paints, you're gonna have to be a good painter in the first place. Meanwhile, it's basically being advertised as a wash, and basically as 'liquid talent'.

Basically, advertising is lies.

They sound really close to gem paints imho. Oh, the Nighthaunt paints are said to be an early experiment of what contrast are, so expect to constantly be shaking those pots, or they'll get ruined (much like hexwraith and gloomhaunt do).

Also, they cant be mixed with water or lahmian, you need their own Contrast medium. Which is also said to be good for wet blending with regular paints. Ah, you cant mix colors with regular paint, and unless your volume control is on point dont do vehicles with contrast, it'll get streaky over large flat surfaces. They are also high pigment, so be ready to stain yourself, not that its much of a concern.

Basically, they are specialty paints for specialty painters, or quick slap jobs for mono-colored models like Marines or Poxwalkers. The choice of base color makes quite a bit of difference also, but you dont need the new primers; they are just meant as a neutral base. Since Contrast is see-through, the base hue will greatly affect your end color; its how they said you should make metallics, so i figure there is potential for great things there with experimentation later on.

Edit: Advertising it as a wash is correct, thats what they are, stickier washes sort of like what the ghost paints were. What they are not is 'One Thick Coat' or a good fit for novice painters. They are also quite expensive so trying and failing is going to lead to bad feelings and burning out.

[Avaris]

I find this to be a problem.

If your goal is to paint a model with multiple colours, contrast paints just aren't good. If you've got the kind of brush control that allows you to not make any mistakes with contrast paints, then you've got the brush control to do layering and highlighting.

Which is what baffles me; In order to get a good coat with Contrast paints, you're gonna have to be a good painter in the first place. Meanwhile, it's basically being advertised as a wash, and basically as 'liquid talent'.

Basically, advertising is lies.

A lot of the advertising is also time: it should be much quicker to get a model painted with contrast than otherwise. I personally will reserve judgment on how good they are for beginners until I’ve actually used them!

[9mm]

Also, Contrast has no metallics, so consider that. And they brush off really easy, so keep varnish on hand. Ah, and you cant paint light over dark, like, at all.

I'm going to steal from Kris at miniwargaming here: adjust your color theory with Contrast. Contrast paints is like using your inkjet printer: CMYK. Base paints with layers is RGB.

So if you mess up you need to re-base the mess then re-contrast it. So its better for models with a large majority various shades of the same color.

Which is why they sell the primers in pots as well, so you can do touch ups.

If your goal is to paint a model with multiple colours, contrast paints just aren't good. If you've got the kind of brush control that allows you to not make any mistakes with contrast paints, then you've got the brush control to do layering and highlighting.

or you do what I do, Prime the sprue, paint the bits individually, then assemble. painting a guardian's head, body, and gun separately is not what I'd call a challenge.

[LansXero]

I'm going to steal from Kris at miniwargaming here: adjust your color theory with Contrast. Contrast paints is like using your inkjet printer: CMYK. Base paints with layers is RGB.


Which is why they sell the primers in pots as well, so you can do touch ups.



or you do what I do, Prime the sprue, paint the bits individually, then assemble. painting a guardian's head, body, and gun separately is not what I'd call a challenge.

Depends on the kit, some models dont glue together properly after painting them in the sprue. I know they sell the primers in pots, but succesive re-basing is bound to take away detail, specially if you also mess up the re-basing. Its all down to eye-hand coordination, there is nothing special or magic about contrast; if anything its more runny than regular paints, so that should also be taken into account.

[Cheesegear]

What [Contrast Paints] are not is 'One Thick Coat' or a good fit for novice painters. They are also quite expensive so trying and failing is going to lead to bad feelings and burning out.

I personally will reserve judgment on how good they are for beginners until I’ve actually used them!

Everything I've seen so far - except in GW's initial 'One Thick Coat' video - indicates that Contrasts are extremely technical paints to use correctly. Slopping on a single coat indiscriminately - what novice painters will do, as that's what it's advertised for - leads to IMO some pretty awful results. Very similar to Glaze-painting a white-undercoated model. It's quick. It's easy. But it looks like **** and it's very easy to make mistakes with.

All of the good results coming out of Contrast Paints are coming from professional and semi-professional painters...Because they're pros.

Of course a Golden Daemon contestant is going to say that Contrast Paints are good. It gives him another option in his paintbox. I've seen pro-painters get fantastic results out of $2.50 tubes of canvas paint. It's not 'cause the tubes of paint are designed for miniatures, or they do something that regular Citadel paint can't do. It's because the painter is literally that good with colour theory, paint mixing and thinning, and has fantastic fine motor skills.

I, personally, will reserve judgement on Contrast paints until I watch my Blackshirt push Contrast Paints onto a 14 year-old 'because it makes painting quick and/or easy', and see how well the beginner does.

[Avaris]

I, personally, will reserve judgement on Contrast paints until I watch my Blackshirt push Contrast Paints onto a 14 year-old 'because it makes painting quick and/or easy', and see how well the beginner does.

Games Workshop in trying to sell products to customers shocker!

Yes, the beginner painter’s results won’t be perfect, but the same is true of the standard approach, and I don’t think anyone’s first results with contrast will be any worse than the equivalent with a classic base/shade/highlight approach. The beginner painter using contrast who gets a poor result would have also got a poor result with normal paints. Sure, you can overall get better results with normal paints, but I’ve not seen any evidence that, in the hands of a 14 year old beginner, contrast is worse than they would otherwise produce (and it may in fact be better).

And then contrast has other advantages to the beginner painter:
- Time. Contrast is quicker to use by far, so even if the first results are ‘bad’ you can iterate more quickly than with other paints. That helps develop skills faster. Say it takes three models to get your brush control to an ok level: that applies to both standard approach and contrast. Yet by replacing base/shade/highlight with a single step you can get to the three model level much quicker. And it needs to be complete models, not just time spent, so that you can understand how things look when you finish. Someone painting three models with contrast will learn far more basic brush control than someone who spent the same time doing one model.

- Money. On the surface, Contrast paints are more expensive. But looking at the total cost they’re likely to be cheaper. To paint a three colour contrast model you need primer plus three paints. To paint the same colour scheme with normal paints you need primer, 3 base paints, 3 shade paints and 3 paints for highlighting. You can probably get away with using a shade over multiple colours, and not everything will need highlighting, but it’s probably still more paints and cost overall, especially when you add even more colours.

So what you’re getting with contrast is the same quality as a beginner for a lower investment in both time and money. It won’t be great, but it should be good enough: I have friends who were at Warhammer fest, and are not professional painters, and they got decent results. I’d ecpect beginners will manage similar.

[Blackhawk748]

Games Workshop in trying to sell products to customers shocker!

Yes, the beginner painter’s results won’t be perfect, but the same is true of the standard approach, and I don’t think anyone’s first results with contrast will be any worse than the equivalent with a classic base/shade/highlight approach. The beginner painter using contrast who gets a poor result would have also got a poor result with normal paints. Sure, you can overall get better results with normal paints, but I’ve not seen any evidence that, in the hands of a 14 year old beginner, contrast is worse than they would otherwise produce (and it may in fact be better).

And then contrast has other advantages to the beginner painter:
- Time. Contrast is quicker to use by far, so even if the first results are ‘bad’ you can iterate more quickly than with other paints. That helps develop skills faster. Say it takes three models to get your brush control to an ok level: that applies to both standard approach and contrast. Yet by replacing base/shade/highlight with a single step you can get to the three model level much quicker. And it needs to be complete models, not just time spent, so that you can understand how things look when you finish. Someone painting three models with contrast will learn far more basic brush control than someone who spent the same time doing one model.

- Money. On the surface, Contrast paints are more expensive. But looking at the total cost they’re likely to be cheaper. To paint a three colour contrast model you need primer plus three paints. To paint the same colour scheme with normal paints you need primer, 3 base paints, 3 shade paints and 3 paints for highlighting. You can probably get away with using a shade over multiple colours, and not everything will need highlighting, but it’s probably still more paints and cost overall, especially when you add even more colours.

So what you’re getting with contrast is the same quality as a beginner for a lower investment in both time and money. It won’t be great, but it should be good enough: I have friends who were at Warhammer fest, and are not professional painters, and they got decent results. I’d ecpect beginners will manage similar.

Except noone is telling people that the normal paints are "One thick coat" to make it look good. They tell you it's three paints and that it's not super easy. Thats the issue.

[LansXero]

Games Workshop in trying to sell products to customers shocker!

They are actually holding Contrast paints hostage for independent stockists, forcing you to get a full rack of the newer, larger, just as unsellable Air paints. Its been a regular flustercuck, since they got their reps threatening with "no-restocks for the foreseeable future if you dont get the rack".

Yes, the beginner painter’s results won’t be perfect, but the same is true of the standard approach, and I don’t think anyone’s first results with contrast will be any worse than the equivalent with a classic base/shade/highlight approach. The beginner painter using contrast who gets a poor result would have also got a poor result with normal paints. Sure, you can overall get better results with normal paints, but I’ve not seen any evidence that, in the hands of a 14 year old beginner, contrast is worse than they would otherwise produce (and it may in fact be better).

We've run several painting demos, paint-and-takes and painting workshops over the years, so yes there is a huge difference. Not being able to quickly touch up over errors is a HUGE difference. Not being able to mix and tone-shift paints is also huge. Having glaze-like consistency is also very diferent. Its not just about poor results, its about inflated expectations. You get on a bike, you fall, you try again. You get on a bike with training wheels thats supposed to be idiot proof, you fall, you feel like trash, because this was super-easy-mode and yet you failed.

And then contrast has other advantages to the beginner painter:
- Time. Contrast is quicker to use by far, so even if the first results are ‘bad’ you can iterate more quickly than with other paints. That helps develop skills faster. Say it takes three models to get your brush control to an ok level: that applies to both standard approach and contrast. Yet by replacing base/shade/highlight with a single step you can get to the three model level much quicker. And it needs to be complete models, not just time spent, so that you can understand how things look when you finish. Someone painting three models with contrast will learn far more basic brush control than someone who spent the same time doing one model.

Thats not how motor skills work. Your wrists and fingers dont care about number of models at all, they care about how many times you repeat the same motions. Perhaps your color theory or understanding of where light goes could go faster, but your muscle memory is built upon repetition, so unless you somehow move your hands three time as fast using Contrast, it will take the same amount of time to develop them on either method.

I do agree it will be a faster way to go from unpainted grey models to slapped-on shaded mono-color models with a few bits of detail thrown in. But then all that Contrast is is just a fancier basecoat, not very different from a color spray + agrax / nuln or a quickshade dip. And if you do your detailing with Contrast, there is all the rebasing required, so the time difference goes out the window.

- Money. On the surface, Contrast paints are more expensive. But looking at the total cost they’re likely to be cheaper. To paint a three colour contrast model you need primer plus three paints. To paint the same colour scheme with normal paints you need primer, 3 base paints, 3 shade paints and 3 paints for highlighting. You can probably get away with using a shade over multiple colours, and not everything will need highlighting, but it’s probably still more paints and cost overall, especially when you add even more colours.

This is elementary school level of color theory, but you just need white, black, and like 4 colours to get a full palette. We've done it when we've run wet-blending and wet-pallette workshops, the results can be really good. Shades are just watered-down paint at heart, so you could do lahmian + what you already have (or 'ardcoat for glossy). Or just good old distilled water. Then again, most of what Contrast does can be replicated with Agrax / Nuln so 3 is a bit too much. 3 for highlighting is also exagerated.

Contrast paints are almost twice as much as regular paints, and they mix very poorly with each other, and also their consistency makes them more prone to drying up (but thats also on GW's choice of bottle). More than that, you still need some regular paints, as Contrast has no metallics and re-basing fine detail work is ugh.

So what you’re getting with contrast is the same quality as a beginner for a lower investment in both time and money. It won’t be great, but it should be good enough: I have friends who were at Warhammer fest, and are not professional painters, and they got decent results. I’d ecpect beginners will manage similar.

We'll wait and see. When managing other people's money and expectations we tend to err on the safe side. Better to be seen as late adopters or change-resistant grognards than the jerks who overhype the new hotness and sucker people out of their money.

[Corsair14]

I saw a video on youtube of an expert paint playing with contrast paints. He disproved the one thick coat theory doing a couple primaris blood angels. The one thick coat method looked horrible. Then he decided to use actual skills for the second model and it looked as awesome as one would expect a propainted model to look. Looked like crap on vehicles except for smears and oil stains, that looked pretty cool.

[Requizen]

I saw a video on youtube of an expert paint playing with contrast paints. He disproved the one thick coat theory doing a couple primaris blood angels. The one thick coat method looked horrible. Then he decided to use actual skills for the second model and it looked as awesome as one would expect a propainted model to look. Looked like crap on vehicles except for smears and oil stains, that looked pretty cool.

Which video? I'd be interested to see.

My question isn't "Does 1 thick coat of contrast paint look as good as hours painstakingly painted by a mediocre or better painter?", my question is "does one thick coat look passable for someone who would otherwise not have painted their models?". This isn't about a revolution in paint technology that gives you one simple trick that pro painters hate, it's about giving people who otherwise would put grey plastic on the table the incentive to say "hey it looks pretty meh, but at least it's not fresh off the sprue!", which is all I'm asking out of it. I don't think it needs to change the game forever to be a win, and if it is a technical paint skill that people can level up over time as well, but start from a relatively ok point, that's even better.

[Avaris]

They are actually holding Contrast paints hostage for independent stockists, forcing you to get a full rack of the newer, larger, just as unsellable Air paints. Its been a regular flustercuck, since they got their reps threatening with "no-restocks for the foreseeable future if you dont get the rack".

That really sucks. The independent stockists I’ve spoken to in the UK seem able to go off piste a bit more in what they order, but being tied into particular stock must be a pain.

This is elementary school level of color theory, but you just need white, black, and like 4 colours to get a full palette. We've done it when we've run wet-blending and wet-pallette workshops, the results can be really good. Shades are just watered-down paint at heart, so you could do lahmian + what you already have (or 'ardcoat for glossy). Or just good old distilled water. Then again, most of what Contrast does can be replicated with Agrax / Nuln so 3 is a bit too much. 3 for highlighting is also exaggerated.

Yeah, it’s possible to mix paints etc, which will suit some people, but has never been in my particular interest or skillset. It’s a similar thing with dry paints: I use them a lot, but could probably get the same results using other paints for cheaper. I’m lucky in that I can afford to do so, it’s certainly reasonable to see contrast as far less suited to your particular context, particularly with the mixing and touching up concerns.

We'll wait and see. When managing other people's money and expectations we tend to err on the safe side. Better to be seen as late adopters or change-resistant grognards than the jerks who overhype the new hotness and sucker people out of their money.

That’s definitely a reasonable approach! I’ll admit I tend more towards the excitement for a new thing, though in this case I’m definitely uncertain if this will be a good product for me. I just wish the tone from folk critical of contrast (or indeed, many releases) was more ‘wait and see’ than ‘this is terrible’!

[Cheesegear]

I have a feeling that some people are missing my point.

Spoiler

Show

What's wrong with this advertisement?
What is wrong with saying 'One Thick Coat', in addition to the above picture?

What is the consumer's expectation?

Hint: The answer is not 'time saved'.

[Requizen]

I have a feeling that some people are missing my point.

Spoiler

Show

What's wrong with this advertisement?

Nothing. It's base + Shade, so it's showing combining those steps into one.

What is wrong with saying 'One Thick Coat', in addition to the above picture?

Nothing. It will be a thick coat compared to what most people are used to.

What is the consumer's expectation?

Hint: The answer is not 'time saved'.

The expectation is that you can put on one coat, regulated but without thinning with water (aka t h i c c) and end up with the same effect as basing and washing. Which I would argue is relatively true, depending on how crazy you get with base coats, blending, and multiple layers.

"One Thick Coat" does not mean "scoop it out with a spoon and slap it on haphazardly". But it sure is a lot easier to put on an advertisement than "one coat, thicker than your usual coat but still applied with a measure of accuracy and restraint so as to not haphazardly slop overmuch". I don't think it's false advertising, it just sounds like you're trying to poke holes in a three-word slogan that accurately, if imprecisely, describes the point of the product.

[Blackhawk748]

I have a feeling that some people are missing my point.

Spoiler

Show

What's wrong with this advertisement?
What is wrong with saying 'One Thick Coat', in addition to the above picture?

What is the consumer's expectation?

Hint: The answer is not 'time saved'.

Lies. Lies and Heresy! I know nuln oil when I see it! And that bottom one totally has Nuln Oil on it!

Also, who base coats blue? I thought everyone either base coated white or black.

[Cheesegear]

Also, who base coats blue? I thought everyone either base coated white or black.

GW has coloured primers now!
(Well, they advertise that they're primers, and they're bad at it)

Unless my models are black (Deathwatch) or yellow (everything else), I almost always undercoat with Mechanicus Grey these days.

[Blackhawk748]

GW has coloured primers now!
(Well, they advertise that they're primers, and they're bad at it)

Unless my models are black (Deathwatch) or yellow (everything else), I almost always undercoat with Mechanicus Grey these days.

Huh, most of my armies are dark colors so I go with Abbadon Black (or whatever its called now) out of a spray can. Speeds things along wonderfully

[druid91]

Yeah... No offense to GW but I think I'm gonna give contrast a wide berth.

My granddad always said not to trust magic potions. Though at the time he was talking about those 'Pour this into your engine to fix it.' potions.

[Requizen]

Yeah... No offense to GW but I think I'm gonna give contrast a wide berth.

My granddad always said not to trust magic potions. Though at the time he was talking about those 'Pour this into your engine to fix it.' potions.

Then you'll want to steer clear of the technical paints, because Typhus Corrosion + Ryza Rust gave me rusted weapons with literally no effort and Blood for the Blood God is the easiest way to get a blood effect on a model that I've come across so far.

It's not like Citadel has put out useful painting tools in the past, better just assume this one is trash

[Cheesegear]

Yeah... No offense to GW but I think I'm gonna give contrast a wide berth.

Do you:
Find painting tedious and/or difficult?
Have an army that is predominantly a single colour with very few - preferably no - colour-breaks in the predominant areas of the model?
Not actually care if it definitely looks like you put little-to-no effort into painting your models?

If 'No' to all, then you don't want or need Contrasts. Carry on. This is who Contrasts are actually for.

Alternatively, do you paint models to win painting competitions? Do you want to do what you're most likely doing anyway, except faster? In that case, Contrast Paints are just a worse way of zenith highlighting and not using an airbrush.

How GW is marketing:
Do you find painting tedius (but not necessarily difficult)?
Do you have any models at all?
Do you want to put almost no effort into painting your models and then get [result which definitely isn't achieved by 'One Thick Coat' of Contrast paint alone doing all the highlighting and shading with a single colour and very good fine motor skills]?

BUY NOW PLZ.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm really only seeing this stuff working right with a few armies:

Mono Color Space Marines
Necrons
Maybe mono color Chaos Marines

I'm not sure about the CSM simple because they have so many extra bits hanging on them. This doesn't work right for Orks as their body is split between being green for skin and brown for the vest and pants and its a fairly equal split. Everyone else tends to have too many colors mixed up.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not sure why you all think "being more careless with paint" and "putting more than one colour on a model" are mutually exclusive. I was plenty sloppy when basecoating the skin and trousers on my bloodreavers this week, and then could tidy it up with more carefully-applied colours for straps, metal, etc. The difference would be, in theory, that that sloppy basecoat is all I need for a good effect. Similarly, if you can't paint, say, power armor trims over a contrast basecoat, you'd have difficulty doing it with standard paints. The all-contrast models are neat but I don't think they're how it's meant to be used.

[druid91]

Then you'll want to steer clear of the technical paints, because Typhus Corrosion + Ryza Rust gave me rusted weapons with literally no effort and Blood for the Blood God is the easiest way to get a blood effect on a model that I've come across so far.

It's not like Citadel has put out useful painting tools in the past, better just assume this one is trash

As someone who lives in a junkyard. Rust is basically just one color. And blood is just rust that came from inside you.

[LansXero]

This isn't about a revolution in paint technology that gives you [I]one simple trick that pro painters hate

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/

"Paint Revolutionised" as a tagline seems to disagree with you, GW has totally made it about it a revolution in paint technology :v.

[LansXero]

I have a feeling that some people are missing my point.

Spoiler

Show

What's wrong with this advertisement?
What is wrong with saying 'One Thick Coat', in addition to the above picture?

What is the consumer's expectation?

Hint: The answer is not 'time saved'.

Lets see.

Picture one is missing the primer step. Perhaps.
Picture two is also missing the primer step. Contrast doesnt work without their specialty base paints, so thats the one thick coat of wraithbone or seer grey already. Which cant be too 'thick' because you need clear recesses for Contrast to work its magic, except you cant use water, so use Contrast Medium™.
Its also missing the fact that those yellow and reds either aren't contrast paints or required an additional step of re-basing those areas to apply another coat of contrast on top.
I also think thats much more time consuming than the brushing of nuln the upper model has.

Also:

Nothing. It's base + Shade, so it's showing combining those steps into one.

Its also very runny, its missing the additional step of clean up before the technical.

Nothing. It will be a thick coat compared to what most people are used to.

How? They are already at glaze-like consistency. They take up to half an hour to dry properly. How is that 'thick' compared to current regular paints? How is requiring re-basing to paint lighter colours 'one coat'?

I'm not sure why you all think "being more careless with paint" and "putting more than one colour on a model" are mutually exclusive. I was plenty sloppy when basecoating the skin and trousers on my bloodreavers this week, and then could tidy it up with more carefully-applied colours for straps, metal, etc. The difference would be, in theory, that that sloppy basecoat is all I need for a good effect. Similarly, if you can't paint, say, power armor trims over a contrast basecoat, you'd have difficulty doing it with standard paints. The all-contrast models are neat but I don't think they're how it's meant to be used.

Yeah, you need to do detailing with regular paints or re-base to do it with contrast. Which means that all contrasts does is help you save on Nuln Oil / Agrax. Which is something, I guess?

[Ionbound]

Spoiler: 13. Tyranids

Show

Kraken, Battalion
(W) Hive Tyrant with Wings; Devourers with Brainleech Worms (x4), Chameleonic Mutation, Catalyst, Psychic Scream
Old One Eye

Genestealers (x18); Scything Talons (x18), Acid Maws (x3)
Genestealers (x18); Scything Talons (x18), Acid Maws (x3)
Hormagaunts (x28)

Venomthropes (x3)

Kraken, Battalion
Hive Tyrant with Wings; Devourers with Brainleech Worms (x4), Paroxysm, The Horror
The Swarmlord; Catalyst, Onslaught

Termagants (x12)
Ripper Swarms (x3)
Ripper Swarms (x3)

Hive Guard (x6); Impaler Cannons

Kronos
Biovore

Impaler Cannons do the thing. The Biovore just hangs out of line of sight and drops The Deepest Shadow when neccessary. Shooting Kraken Genestealers up the board to win. And then let's have the Hive Tyrants chill out in Reserve so that they don't die immedately. Solid mono-Codex list - and no Forge World!

Just wanted to comment here that there are some list building choices that I just don't get here; Specifically running 3 Acid Maws on the Stealers instead of the 4 allowable, and taking Scything Talons instead of Rending Claws on the Stealers and not the Broodlord.

[JNAProductions]

Just wanted to comment here that there are some list building choices that I just don't get here; Specifically running 3 Acid Maws on the Stealers instead of the 4 allowable, and taking Scything Talons instead of Rending Claws on the Stealers and not the Broodlord.

You get Rending Claws automatically-Scything Talons are an upgrade, but one that costs 0 points. They are IN ADDITION to Rending Claws.

[Cheesegear]

Specifically running 3 Acid Maws on the Stealers instead of the 4 allowable

My guess is he didn't have the models.

and taking Scything Talons instead of Rending Claws on the Stealers and not the Broodlord.

Broodlords can't have Scything Talons. What are you talking about?

[Ionbound]

I'm saying he doesn't have a Broodlord at all, which surprised me. Also, I see JNA. I genuinely didn't know that, thought it was an either/or. That's...Really weird to me, but whatever.

[JNAProductions]

So, a question I feel is quite appropriate given the title of the thread:

How important do you think painting is to the hobby?

[Forum Explorer]

So, a question I feel is quite appropriate given the title of the thread:

How important do you think painting is to the hobby?

I'd say it's important. I may not like painting, but it really does create a connection between you and your models. And seeing the amazing jobs some people do is always a pleasure.

Similarly, if someone doesn't have their stuff painted for a long time and is making no progress it kinda seems disrespectful to the effort the other players are putting in.