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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Worse. First turn is the only turn that matters. If you have Reserves, you lose, the end.
    Castle up and win.

    I suppose you might end up selling Fortifications. Is that a plus?
    Maybe we just have a ton of Los blocking terrain more than most people, but we generally found that a lot of stuff doesn't get to shoot turn 1.

    We have a lot of buildings and giant rocks and dense forest terrain though.

    We definitely did have that problem until we started using a lot more terrain.
    Last edited by Manticoran; 2019-06-13 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDavenport View Post
    Question for the thread: would a battle tech style simultaneous shooting phase make 40k better or worse? As in, both players pick targets for all of their units, then shoot them all. Dead models are removed at the end of the phase.
    Worse. Imperial Knights can spend 1cp to function as if they were completely undamaged while people without knights will simply have dead or crippled models. In battletech mechs without an arm can't randomly operate at full capacity if they survive the turn. The result of this gameplay would be massive overkill on one knight so that your entire first turn isn't wasted due to a little rng while a knight player can freely spread damage as even a couple wounds diminishes the effectiveness of an army.

    This also sucks for melee who have to move, eat an entire shooting phase from their enemy, then charge. Imagine the bloodletter bomb but your opponent gets to have their entire shooting phase to deal with it before you charge.

    Your suggestion would require significant rework but I could see it working in apocalypse or if they make killing things a little more challenging in 40k.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Did you mean Doomsday Arks, not Annihilation Barges? Because ABarges... Not doing much to a Knight, generally.
    I did, thank you.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    Maybe we just have a ton of Los blocking terrain more than most people
    Define how many pieces you have, and I'll be able to tell you.

    We definitely did have that problem until we started using a lot more terrain.
    I believe the current standard is 8 pieces of terrain, two of which block LoS. The ITC has added that all of the lowest levels of Ruins always block LoS. This has caused some problems where things like Night Spinners, Basilisks and Wyverns are OP...The bonuses from Vigilus make the problem even worse.

    Also, define 'we'. How many tables are you running simultaneously? Do they all have the same amount of terrain?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-06-13 at 02:49 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Only two pieces of LoS blocking terrain as standard? Really? Our table generally has around four, and I've thought for a while it's not enough and we should get some more large pieces to create more interesting fire lanes.

    Cheesegear, your metagame continues to be the worst I've ever heard of, while still being technically playable. If everything can see everywhere, of course you're going to get static gameplay.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Only two pieces of LoS blocking terrain as standard?
    Sort of?

    Cheesegear, your metagame continues to be the worst I've ever heard of, while still being technically playable...
    My meta's results line up fairly reasonably with current tournament metrics.
    As a competitive meta, we - mostly - follow what the competitive circuit, does. Including terrain set up.

    Too much terrain, means that Melee armies dominate.
    Too little terrain, means that Shooty armies dominate.

    (4) Two pieces per long edge that partially block LoS (e.g; Ruin or Building; IMO, the ITC does this wrong, by 'partially blocking', they mean the entire bottom level of the Ruin, which may as well read 'fully blocks')
    (6) Between each two pieces on the long edge, a piece of terrain that does not block LoS (e.g; Forest or Hill).
    (8) Two pieces in the middle of the board that fully block LoS (e.g; Impassable Building).
    The sum total of the area of all terrain pieces should be 4'x2'.

    I guess overall there should be six pieces that block LoS in some fashion...But only two in the middle of the board.

    If it's good enough for tournaments, it's good enough for casual games.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-06-13 at 04:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Only two pieces of LoS blocking terrain as standard? Really? Our table generally has around four, and I've thought for a while it's not enough and we should get some more large pieces to create more interesting fire lanes.

    Cheesegear, your metagame continues to be the worst I've ever heard of, while still being technically playable. If everything can see everywhere, of course you're going to get static gameplay.
    In fairness, there isn’t a lot of terrain around that fully blocks LoS, in the sets produced by GW at least.

    Though the idea of using a strict allocation of scenery in casual games, like Cheesegear seems to be suggesting, is utterly alien to me. We just go with what looks cool: often I’ll set up a board before my opponent shows up, and check they’re happy with it before just getting on with the game.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Though the idea of using a strict allocation of scenery in casual games, like Cheesegear seems to be suggesting, is utterly alien to me. We just go with what looks cool: often I’ll set up a board before my opponent shows up, and check they’re happy with it before just getting on with the game.
    Yeah. You can do it by eye if you've got enough terrain pieces...One for each corner and four scatter pieces. But again, I'm told that the minimum terrain should be 33% of the board, with the maximum being 50%.

    However, as everyone knows, it's not the amount of terrain that matters. It's also the type.
    A board with nothing but Forests on it, plays very differently to a board that's all Ruins.
    Which is why a board shouldn't be all Ruins or all Forests. But some of both.

    The instant you put Impassable Terrain on the board, the game plays very differently.
    The instant you put LoS-Blockers on the board, the game plays very differently.

    Depending on how many LoS-Blockers and Impassable Terrain you put on the board, can dramatically swing whether your army should be Melee or Shooty.
    Too much Impassable Terrain mean that Melee armies that can't teleport are in for a bad time.
    Too much LoS-Blockers mean that Shooty armies are in for a bad time.

    I deploy my Reserves on Turn 2, over here.
    "I use Early Warning."
    You can't see me because I deployed behind LoS. Also, I Charge.
    "I Overwatch."
    Um akshully, you can Charge things you can't see, but you can't Overwatch things you can't see.
    "Cool, T'au suck."

    How do you decide how much terrain, the type of terrain, and whether or not it blocks Movement and/or LoS? How do you decide what terrain goes on the board insofar that it's fair for both players - whether they realise it or not?

    ...Easy. You don't decide terrain.
    Terrain is decided for you.
    Don't worry about terrain. Just play the game.
    One of the things that the ITC does right, is that with thousands of hours worth of play-testing from dozens and dozens of tournaments - around the entire world - they have the metrics which allow them to balance the game, insofar as figuring out the fairest way to play the game. One of the easiest ways to balance out the game - for all Factions - is terrain placement.

    Why would anyone play a Shooty army in a meta that floods the board with LoS-blockers? Why would you negate an entire phase like that?
    Why is that better than playing on a board with no LoS-blocks and letting shooty armies dominate?
    Either way, bad terrain placement negates at least one phase of the game, with even worse terrain placement can even negate the movement phase, too.

    It doesn't matter if your opponent is happy with the terrain, because they agree to the terrain placement before they even show up to the table, because that's how you organise a meta and make sure everyone's on the same page before they even start playing.

    As I said, if it's good enough for competitive game, it's good enough for a casual game.

    Player placed Terrain, combined with player-placed Objectives, almost always means that one player has an advantage over the other before Deployment even starts. It's just a matter of rolling for table sides and who gets 'the good side'.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-06-13 at 04:57 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    For terrain, my gamestore has premade boxes. Go in, pull out a box, take terrain out and put on the board. Our tables end up quite crowded, but there's only a few LoS blockers. Usually more than two though.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Why would anyone play a Shooty army in a meta that floods the board with LoS-blockers? Why would you negate an entire phase like that?
    Why is that better than playing on a board with no LoS-blocks and letting shooty armies dominate?
    Either way, bad terrain placement negates at least one phase of the game, with even worse terrain placement can even negate the movement phase, too.
    Haha yeah we're using way more terrain. I'd say about a quarter of the board gets Los blocking terrain, and 3/8 to half of the board in other types.

    Maybe everyone shooting at once balances some with way more terrain?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    I'd say about a quarter of the board gets Los blocking terrain, and 3/8 to half of the board in other types.
    If you're playing with that much terrain, you may as well be playing with Cityfight rules.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Well, doubles tournament today. I have a sinking feeling I may have to eject a player. I'm not looking forward to it, as is partner's not a bad guy, but if he behaves like he reportedly did last time, it can't be helped.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    That sounds like it has a story behind it. Are you at liberty to tell us what happened, or should we just assume that he lies about his dice rolls and occasionally orders hits on particularly tricky opponents?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    That sounds like it has a story behind it. Are you at liberty to tell us what happened, or should we just assume that he lies about his dice rolls and occasionally orders hits on particularly tricky opponents?
    Well, I've got a story about this guy screwing up a local escalation league.

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    So, this local place did an escalation league with a prize of $50 promotional credit. It could only be used on certain things.

    During one of his matches, he brought an army that didn't match his list. He colluded with his opponent to call the match a draw. His opponent later told me about this, and I told the league organizers, who ruled that his opponent won, he lost.

    He brought up the possibility of a rematch like 3 months after it happened, and the league organizers told him no.

    He convinces his opponent from then that the league organizers said that a rematch was okay, replayed his opponent, won, then convinced the guy behind the counter that he got $50 in regular store credit, and his opponent got $25 for being "second," neither of which were true.

    Also, when my friend played him during the league, I walked back in the middle of their match to socialize for a bit. My friend later told me that if I hadn't walked in when I did, he'd have left because he thought the guy was about to flip the table on him.

    So, yeah. Horrible attitude, deliberate cheating, and as far as I'm concerned, stealing with malice aforethought.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Ouch, no kidding. Lying to a clerk that you have a discount to which you are not entitled is a form of shoplifting in the UK, and I imagine it would be the same elsewhere. You wouldn't just get banned for that, but probably also prosecuted.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Ouch, no kidding. Lying to a clerk that you have a discount to which you are not entitled is a form of shoplifting in the UK, and I imagine it would be the same elsewhere. You wouldn't just get banned for that, but probably also prosecuted.
    Honestly, I wish some action HAD been taken. As-is, the only real consequence is he can't do any paid events at the store.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Honestly, I wish some action HAD been taken. As-is, the only real consequence is he can't do any paid events at the store.
    Thats a pretty weak store owner. Why would you ever let back someone who scams your staff? Thats a lifetime ban, regardless of all the other circumstances.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Thats a pretty weak store owner. Why would you ever let back someone who scams your staff? Thats a lifetime ban, regardless of all the other circumstances.
    I'm of the same opinion. I would get him banned from the store I work at if I could.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Thats a pretty weak store owner. Why would you ever let back someone who scams your staff? Thats a lifetime ban, regardless of all the other circumstances.
    Scamming for prizes - especially store credit which counts as a loss for the store, making it theft - is an immediate ban from the store. At least 12 months.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Scamming for prizes - especially store credit which counts as a loss for the store, making it theft - is an immediate ban from the store. At least 12 months.
    why 12 months? What do you gain out of allowing someone who wilfully suckered stuff out of you? And even if the person has changed, it sends a terrible message of 'pull one over us once a year, or right before you are about to go on vacation".

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    He hasn't done it at our store and I have no direct proof he's cheated in a tournament round; only after the fact allegations that no one called judge on last time he was in here. There was a judge call during the first round over some nonsense (contention over whether or not the controlling player in fact gets to choose which models get destroyed by Emergency Disembarkation, the answer to which is bloody obvious), which seems to have gotten him to behave for the rest of the day.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2019-06-15 at 11:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    He hasn't done it at our store and I have no direct proof he's cheated in a tournament round; only after the fact allegations that no one called judge on last time he was in here. There was a judge call during the first round over some nonsense (contention over whether or not the controlling player in fact gets to choose which models get destroyed by Emergency Disembarkation, the answer to which is bloody obvious), which seems to have gotten him to behave for the rest of the day.
    Wait, if its one unit sure, but what happens when say a rhino blows up with 5 tacs and 2 characters inside? we roll separatedly for each char and then for the unit :O

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Hi, I've been thinking of starting a new chapter, or rather a renegade chapter. Story is, they're loyalists, but they started experiencing mutations. They were shocked at first, but then realized despite their mutations, their minds are still their own, and that the imperium has been hating mutants even if they're just normal citizens. With their eyes now opened, they also see how the imperium basically treats the civilians as slaves. When other chapters notice the mutations and start attacking this chapter, that's the last straw. This chapter broke ties with the imperium and became renegade. They still hate chaos though, seeing them as no better. Together with some mutant guardsmen that they accepted in the warband, they travel the stars to liberate all and offer freedom and acceptance, humans and (non-chaos) mutants alike.

    This warband I plan to use just with Kill-Team rules, since I can say they're not large enough to fight full battles, so they only fight the small battles behind enemy lines.
    Now I have two questions:

    1, Would this be too lore-breaking?
    2, What would be a suitable new warband name for this group?

    Thanks in advance.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Wait, if its one unit sure, but what happens when say a rhino blows up with 5 tacs and 2 characters inside? we roll separatedly for each char and then for the unit :O
    This is explicitly wrong per the FAQ:

    For example, a Razorback is transporting a Tactical Squad of five models and one Space Marine Captain when it is destroyed. The Razorback rolls a 6 for its Explodes ability, inflicting D3 mortal wounds on each unit within 6". The six models inside now disembark, and six D6 are rolled. Two of the results are a 1, so two models are slain – the Space Marine player chooses two of the Space Marines from the Tactical Squad. The Razorback model is now removed from the battlefield.
    Edit: @Hollysword
    Perfectly in keeping with lore. Chapters go renegade for all sorts of reasons, and as for the mutations, check out the “Cursed” 21st founding, e.g. with the Black Dragons chapter, who have large bone growth mutations.
    Last edited by Avaris; 2019-06-16 at 01:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollysword View Post
    Hi, I've been thinking of starting a new chapter, or rather a renegade chapter. Story is, they're loyalists, but they started experiencing mutations. They were shocked at first, but then realized despite their mutations, their minds are still their own, and that the imperium has been hating mutants even if they're just normal citizens. With their eyes now opened, they also see how the imperium basically treats the civilians as slaves. When other chapters notice the mutations and start attacking this chapter, that's the last straw. This chapter broke ties with the imperium and became renegade. They still hate chaos though, seeing them as no better. Together with some mutant guardsmen that they accepted in the warband, they travel the stars to liberate all and offer freedom and acceptance, humans and (non-chaos) mutants alike.

    This warband I plan to use just with Kill-Team rules, since I can say they're not large enough to fight full battles, so they only fight the small battles behind enemy lines.
    Now I have two questions:

    1, Would this be too lore-breaking?
    2, What would be a suitable new warband name for this group?

    Thanks in advance.
    1. Nah, that fits in well enough. Are you planning on doing any writing about your chapter?

    2. The Broken Blades?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    What do you mean by writing? I'm all about lore writing if anyone has any questions about my chapter.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    I just wanna say that, as someone who is sick of the Imperium my self, I love this idea.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Wait, if its one unit sure, but what happens when say a rhino blows up with 5 tacs and 2 characters inside? we roll separatedly for each char and then for the unit :O
    You shouldn't. The rulebook says you roll a die for each model in the transport and then choose one to destroy for every roll of 1. It doesn't say anything about rolling per unit. The FAQ doubles down on this.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollysword View Post
    What do you mean by writing? I'm all about lore writing if anyone has any questions about my chapter.
    Writing some short stories and stuff about your chapter.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    why 12 months? What do you gain out of allowing someone who wilfully suckered stuff out of you? And even if the person has changed, it sends a terrible message of 'pull one over us once a year, or right before you are about to go on vacation".
    It's a shadow perma-ban. Many corporations require proof of serious transgression in order to permanently ban you from a store, sometimes requiring a restraining order or similar court-backed injunction which costs time and money to arrange. Getting it up through to head office, and getting them to approve it, and then getting it back down to the store... there's a lot of steps where someone can step in and go, "just run your store better, if we need to get involved then what are we paying you for?"

    Banning someone "for a year" is basically the same thing but it can be done at store level. It sounds arbitrary, but it cuts out a lot of red-tape and it's very rare for anyone to, having been banned for a year, to then come back afterwards. They just fall out of the habit and get used to going elsewhere, in most cases.

    Not that I'm trying to tell you how retail works, of course, but as I understand it you are the final authority in your store so you can do what you want. Where I used to work, "Store Manager" was more promotions away from actual, tangable authority than I was from Store Manager.
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