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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Post understanding an optimized build

    So I found this over the top build:
    https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wi...acter_Build%29

    I'm struggling to understand a few things about "The Word" build and was hoping someone could help me out.

    1) In the first phase, what is the point of ranger, swashbuckler, fighter?
    2) In the third phase, why go with rakshasa?
    3) The main question. He calculates arcane caster 28 and divine caster 110. He states that the sublime chord "unites" all of the random arcane caster classes as one, but after reading the class, it says "add sublime chord level to one other arcane casting class". Ur-Priest adds half the prc to all other spellcasting classes, which in this build is 5. The build uses a total of 18 orange ioun stones for +18 to each spellcasting class level?
    4) Is this thing even possible by the RAW?

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    First of all, stop reading dandwiki.
    Second, stop reading dandwiki.
    Third, realize that there's a difference between practical optimization and theoretical optimization.
    Fourth, realize that a huge number of the 'optimized' builds on dandwiki were written by a person who either doesn't understand optimization, or who doesn't even fully understand the rules of the game.

    The Wish and The Word were originally created by someone trying to troll the WotC optimization forums. The writer deliberately tried to cram every questionable trick he possibly could into them, in order to provoke arguments from the community. The writer had been banned from those forums multiple times prior to that for obvious trolling. Forget those 'builds' even exist.


    Practical optimization is something that could see play at a gaming table with other people. It's not game-breakingly powerful, and it's not dependent on ambiguous or (deliberately) misinterpreted rules.

    Theoretical optimization exists only to provoke discussion, not to be played. It's often intended to create characters who are the absolute best at one particular thing, or who are so powerful that they can take on level-appropriate challenges with no personal risk.

    Someone who doesn't understand the difference between those two things will frequently try to play an uber-powerful theoretical build, and often such a person will try to make the build even stronger. In the latter case such a person's lack of understanding of the rules (or willingness to deliberately misinterpret the rules) will result in a character that's not even rules-legal. Don't be one of these people, and don't ever play the game with one of these people.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    LOL I had no idea. I do like the idea of using beefed up blasphemy/holy word tho. What would be a more legitimate way of getting the most out of those two spells?

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    The problem with using Holy Word or similar with a buffed caster level is that it either automatically wins or it's ineffective. It forces your DM to use opponents that it's ineffective against, because otherwise you just automatically win every encounter. It's back to theoretical optimization.


    For buffing caster level, Earth Spell is one of the best ways to do that. However, as that's already a 7th level spell you're not going to get much mileage out of this.

    You could take four levels of Hierophant with Practiced Spellcaster, and apply Practiced Spellcaster before the +4 CL from Hierophant. However, that loses levels of actual spellcasting, so it's not a very good trade.

    You could put it on an arcane spellcaster, and gain access to it via Arcane Disciple. That gives you more ways of stacking caster levels, such as with Master Spellthief or Theurgic Specialist.

    You could use Red Wizard for a caster level of 40, but that requires a number of simulacrums or similar to power you up every day. That also allows you to Heighten a spell to 20th level, so Earth Spell would put that at a caster level of 53. Throw in a Ring of Arcane Might and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for a total of 55, and you'll automatically one-shot anything that's 45 HD or lower unless it's the same alignment as the spell.

    Master Spellthief combines the spellcaster levels (i.e. effective levels for determining spells/day and highest level spells) of all your arcane spellcasting classes to determine your caster level for all classes. Theurgic Specialist is in Dragon 325, that adds together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes when you're casting a spell from your specialist school.

    So consider a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1/ Wu Jen 1/ Warmage 1/ Dread Necromancer 1. With Master Spellthief your caster level in every arcane spellcasting class is equal, so all ten UM levels can go toward Wizard. You end up with Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, and one level in each of six other classes. Master Spellthief makes your caster level 27 for seven classes (Spellthief 1 isn't a spellcasting class, but Master Spellthief adds it to the other classes). UM adds +4 to those, for 31 in each class. Get a Ring of Arcane Might and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for 33 in each class. With Theurgic Specialist, whenever you cast a spell from your specialist school you add all of those seven classes' caster levels together, for a total caster level of 231 with any spell of that school.

    Just a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10/ [Wizard-advancing classes] 5 is pretty good. You end up with Wizard 18 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, plus the one Spellthief level and +4 from UM gets a caster level of 31 in both classes at 20th level. Your Holy Word would one-shot anything 21 HD or lower, or seriously debuff anything nongood that's up to 31 HD with no saving throw. This is still pushing the limits of what could be considered a practical build, especially considering you can include Able Learner for those amazing Beguiler class skills and Versatile Spellcaster to spend two Beguiler slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you know of 5th level or lower.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Yeah, dandwiki is the animeamino of D&D.

    I remember seeing this once, but don't remember the details. However, just skimming through the introduction, I found two blatant errors:

    First, wishing for more wishes is DM Fiat territory, and wiil inevitably get you killed/sent to hell/hunted by Varakhuts

    Second, it assumes that simply because Orange Ioun Stones are untyped, they stack. Untyped bonuses do stack among each other, but bonuses from the same source do not stack unless specifically mentioned. This is a case of Specific Trumps General, except the author claims it works in the opposite way, with the untyped stacking rule overriding the same source rule. If you look at other sources of untyped bonuses(like some feats), they mention when they can be picked more than once, so using that as a precedent, it is easily provable that, by RAI, the same source rule is prevalent.

    Just by those two points, it's possible to conclude that this build only works based on ambiguous rulings that are completely dependent on the DM, and really don't follow RAW too closely, unlike other more famous TO builds, like HIVE, Pun-Pun, Omniscifier, etc.

    Personally, if a player came to my table with something like that, I'd try talking them out of it, and if that didn't work, I'd just bring the Incarnate Collossi-Devastation Vermin Etomanothropes, which are all CR 19-21 with 100-200 HD.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Thanks for the input

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    First of all, stop reading dandwiki.
    Second, stop reading dandwiki.
    Third, realize that there's a difference between practical optimization and theoretical optimization.
    Fourth, realize that a huge number of the 'optimized' builds on dandwiki were written by a person who either doesn't understand optimization, or who doesn't even fully understand the rules of the game.

    The Wish and The Word were originally created by someone trying to troll the WotC optimization forums. The writer deliberately tried to cram every questionable trick he possibly could into them, in order to provoke arguments from the community. The writer had been banned from those forums multiple times prior to that for obvious trolling. Forget those 'builds' even exist.
    Remind me who created the Wish and the Word? I think it was two people but I can't remember their names.
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Remind me who created the Wish and the Word? I think it was two people but I can't remember their names.
    It was Frank and K unless I'm mistaken.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Remind me who created the Wish and the Word? I think it was two people but I can't remember their names.
    Frank Trollman and K, who are better known at this point for their Tomes.

    EDIT: too slow...
    Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2019-05-18 at 11:25 AM.
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    I got to thinking, blasphemy and holy word are both level 7 clerical spells, but the build suggested has no divine caster levels.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    The "builds" have them as Su abilities.
    Last edited by StevenC21; 2019-05-18 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvernale View Post
    I got to thinking, blasphemy and holy word are both level 7 clerical spells, but the build suggested has no divine caster levels.
    The Word starts off with ten levels of Ur-Priest, then level drains the levels away and uses a very generous interpretation of Emancipated Spawn's recall class features ability to get the casting back.
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Oh I meant the idea suggested by Biff

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvernale View Post
    Oh I meant the idea suggested by Biff
    Those spells are in the Good/Evil domains, you can take Arcane Disciple to get access to a domain's spells on an arcane spellcaster.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Ah I didn't know that one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    The problem with using Holy Word or similar with a buffed caster level is that it either automatically wins or it's ineffective. It forces your DM to use opponents that it's ineffective against, because otherwise you just automatically win every encounter. It's back to theoretical optimization.
    To be fair, there are ways to make them partially effective. Many of those conditions are fairly common immunity types, they're sonic, there are various spells that can protect against them (which in turn can be attacked), they have fairly short ranges and so on and so forth. In a higher optimisation table, e.g. Consumptive Field Blasphemy spam is more than fine.
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    The Wish is just the "standard" (well, I've seen it a number of times here and elsewhere) tactic of abusing costless wishes for items. A ring of infinite wishes might not exist, but a scroll with 10^100 wishes that each have 10^100 xp invested unambiguously does, so the distinction isn't a big one. Efreet/Zodar wishes for items are definitely TO, not PO, but I don't think those builds were ever claimed as practical.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    What separates TO from PO?

    I thought they were synonymous.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    What separates TO from PO?

    I thought they were synonymous.
    In my understanding TO is optimization leads to a valid, rules legal build, that no DM would allow at the the table that boil down to one of three build types.
    1. Counterable - Stuff like the D2 crusader, yes it does infinite damage but otherwise is totally playable. Slapping baleful polymorph on a d2 Crusader will stop it dead in it's tracks. So will keeping it at a distance etc. Still, not allowable since you either A. Do infinite damage and kill every enemy on your turn in initiative or, do nothing of any use.
    2. Uncounterable. - Stuff that lives on it's own private demi-plane, has infinite castings of wish, and is effectively unable to be harmed, and capable of neutralizing any threat within a couple of rounds without exposing itself to danger.
    3. Abusive - Usually requires very loose interpretations of the rules what it can do usually varies, but by sensibly using RAI they usually don't do anything.

    PO on the other hand is extremely variable and much harder to categorize, but the main difference between PO and TO is that PO will be allowed at most tables depending on the power level of the table. PO can be anything from not stacking LA, to choosing power attack and shock trooper for your melee characters, to not choosing grease for every spell you prepare as a wizard.
    Some build types like slingers and throwers usually require extensive optimization to be viable, yet despite all the cheese and tricks stacked into them aren't busted, merely only capable of competing at a level appropriate to other characters in their party. Other builds, like a High-Op Wu Jen are capable of reaching almost godhood for about a day at a time and ignoring it (If they can get pact of return), yet even without their nasty trick are still going to be quite versatile.


    tl;dr TO is not allowed at any sane table, PO likely is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    What separates TO from PO?

    I thought they were synonymous.
    TO is Theoretical Optimization. Builds that are technically possible but nearly guaranteed to break a game regardless of who is running it. It's stuff like The Wish and the Word, Pun-Pun, and similar.

    PO is Practical Optimization. These are builds that are optimized, but are built to serve a useful purpose in an actual game. Usually a practical op build is made within more specific parameters, or meant to actually fit into a real game where optimization levels have been set.
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    I'm only at the PO level of wizard + archmage kind of builds so I was looking online to try to keep up with the other players

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    If you're in a group with people playing the Wish & the Word level characters, you need to get out now.

    Also, Wiz+Archmage can be extremely powerful. It all comes down to spell selection.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    If you're in a group with people playing the Wish & the Word level characters, you need to get out now.

    Also, Wiz+Archmage can be extremely powerful. It all comes down to spell selection.
    I'd like to emphasize this. Plain Wizard can break the game 7 ways to Sunday. You don't need PRCs to do that. PRCs just allow you to do so even more, or some of the less broken stuff with more efficiency (which is what I'd generally recommend, to keep the game more manageable unless everyone knows what they're in for).
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    If you're in a group with people playing the Wish & the Word level characters, you need to get out now.

    Also, Wiz+Archmage can be extremely powerful. It all comes down to spell selection.
    nuuuuu nothing that weird, but some of the stuff is pretty scary

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    What kind of stuff?

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post

    Master Spellthief combines the spellcaster levels (i.e. effective levels for determining spells/day and highest level spells) of all your arcane spellcasting classes to determine your caster level for all classes. Theurgic Specialist is in Dragon 325, that adds together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes when you're casting a spell from your specialist school.

    So consider a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1/ Wu Jen 1/ Warmage 1/ Dread Necromancer 1. With Master Spellthief your caster level in every arcane spellcasting class is equal, so all ten UM levels can go toward Wizard. You end up with Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, and one level in each of six other classes. Master Spellthief makes your caster level 27 for seven classes (Spellthief 1 isn't a spellcasting class, but Master Spellthief adds it to the other classes). UM adds +4 to those, for 31 in each class. Get a Ring of Arcane Might and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for 33 in each class. With Theurgic Specialist, whenever you cast a spell from your specialist school you add all of those seven classes' caster levels together, for a total caster level of 231 with any spell of that school.

    Just a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10/ [Wizard-advancing classes] 5 is pretty good. You end up with Wizard 18 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, plus the one Spellthief level and +4 from UM gets a caster level of 31 in both classes at 20th level. Your Holy Word would one-shot anything 21 HD or lower, or seriously debuff anything nongood that's up to 31 HD with no saving throw. This is still pushing the limits of what could be considered a practical build, especially considering you can include Able Learner for those amazing Beguiler class skills and Versatile Spellcaster to spend two Beguiler slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you know of 5th level or lower.
    I'm confused how this works.
    Also, does it matter the sorcerer bloodline and wizard specialty?
    Last edited by Silvernale; 2019-05-22 at 11:37 PM.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvernale View Post
    I'm confused how this works.
    Also, does it matter the sorcerer bloodline and wizard specialty?
    Sorcerer bloodline isn't a thing in 3.5, you may be thinking Pathfinder. Wizard specialty must be the school of the spell you want to exploit.

    The Master Spellthief feat in Complete Scoundrel:
    "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

    So you're at Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8, with one level in each of five other spellcasting classes, plus one level of spellthief. You add all of those levels together to determine your caster level for each class. Ultimate Magus further increases each class's caster level by +4 from the arcane spell power class feature. An Orange Prism Ioun Stone and a Ring of Arcane Might each add another +1 caster level to each class.

    The Theurgic Specialist feat in Dragon 325:
    When casting a spell from your specialist school, you can add together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level.

    So your seven spellcasting classes each have a caster level of 33 from Master Spellthief. Theurgic Specialist adds all of those together (7x33=231) to determine your caster level for any spell you cast from your Wizard specialist school.

    Furthermore, you can take the feat Reserves of Strength from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting you can (negligibly) increase the caster level of a spell you cast and in doing so remove any level-based variable limits of the spell. So with that combo a Magic Missile spell will fire 116 missiles, for example.

    One of the best spells to use with an absurd caster level is Maw of Chaos in Spell Compendium, a 9th level abjuration, since it does 1d6 per caster level per round with no built-in limit and no save to reduce the damage in a 15-ft. radius.

    Finally, you're probably best off using a Necromancer with the metamagic feat Song of the Dead in Dragon Compendium. That's a +1 metamagic that turns the affected spell into a necromancy spell, and if it was mind-affecting it now affects only intelligent undead creatures. So a necromancer can use that to make every spell he casts benefit from his inflated caster level. If he can command or otherwise control a Slaymate in Libris Mortis, it has a passive aura that gives a -1 metamagic cost to all necromancy spells, so with that you can apply Song of the Dead to your spells for free.

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    So with that stacking, would I have the spell lists of a 33rd level caster in each class or just cast with a 1st level class list but the spells are at 33rd level?

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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    Side-note: Even if you give Orange Ioun Stone stacking a pass, the Wish and the Word are only even kind of rules-legal if you deliberately conflate "levels in a spellcasting class" and "caster level." By my read, the build doesn't work at all, even if your DM gives the nod to the ambiguous stuff like the Ioun Stones.

    Some discussion on another website if you want to read more.
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    Default Re: understanding an optimized build

    These stack caster lv not level in casting class, so your spells pack the wallop of a lv 31+ casting them but your spell slots are of a lv 13 wizard lv 8 beguiler

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