Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?

[Witty Username]

I think he is still evil he is just smarter about it.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean, he’s less Evil then he used to be, but dude was basically carving out a third sub-basement of the barrel. To redeem, you need to, first and foremost, acknowledge that your past actions were WRONG, and Belkar’s only just now doing that. If he had a year or two, it might be possible for him to, slowly and painstakingly, repent. As stands...Pretty much his only chance is pulling a Darth Vader-style “sacrifice yourself to save the entire world” thing, like some sort of inverse Familcide, but, given that said incident DIDN’T make V Evil, although it would have had they not repented, i’m not sure any single act of Good, even one of that scale, would lump him into CN. He hasn’t done anything worse then CN this whole book, but neither has he done much Good...Hard to judge.

Also, I imagine Belkar would be offended to be put in Limbo rather then The Abyss...But not because he wants to be in The Abyss, just because he takes pride in being CE, or, at least, he did before his recent conversations with Durkon. Heck, if my theory pans out, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Epilogue featured Belkar standing in front of a Sladd, as he rants about he was CE all his life.

YES!!!!! Youbfinally understood what I meant!!!!

[understatement]

Belkar's soul is going to get annihilated so the readers won't be sure what afterlife he'll deserve.

...is my personal theory.

[apocolypse101]

In my opinion, he's loyal to those that have earned his loyalty, but he's still selfish and a bastard to everyone else.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Belkar's soul is going to get annihilated so the readers won't be sure what afterlife he'll deserve.

...is my personal theory.

that would make sense... considering the prophecies.

Also, does anyone know whether the prphecies state Belkar, specificslly. because th halfling could mean serini.....

[Peelee]

that would make sense... considering the prophecies.

Also, does anyone know whether the prphecies state Belkar, specificslly. because th halfling could mean serini.....

Like the prophecy that says "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year"? Or the one that says "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," where the Oracle is clearly talking about a male halfling?

[Rodin]

Like the prophecy that says "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year"? Or the one that says "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," where the Oracle is clearly talking about a male halfling?

Clearly, there is some other halfling called Belkar, who will suffer a nasty cake batter accident the day before he was going to retire.

[Peelee]

Clearly, there is some other halfling called Belkar, who will suffer a nasty cake batter accident the day before he was going to retire.

Normally I'm not a fan of theories like that, but yours wove everything together so well I'll make an exception! I assume the cake batter caused a choking incident.

[Jasdoif]

Normally I'm not a fan of theories like that, but yours wove everything together so well I'll make an exception! I assume the cake batter caused a choking incident.

Belkar balked at Betty Botter's bakery, but she'd have made the batter better.

[Peelee]

Belkar balked at Betty Botter's bakery, but she'd have made the batter better.

Bet he's bitter.

[woweedd]

Bet he's bitter.

Bitter Belkar Bodes Badly, Bro.

[Fish]

It depends on whether you consider alignment “the totality of your past actions and intentions, the sum of which determines which afterlife you deserve” or “your organizational mindset and driving purpose.” Neither definition really suits all cases.

[understatement]

Based on the "it's the effort that counts" vibe, it's probably that as long as you're alive (aka having direct influence upon the world around you) you can be redeemed.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Based on the "it's the effort that counts" vibe, it's probably that as long as you're alive (aka having direct influence upon the world around you) you can be redeemed.

He does appear to make an effort towards being chaotic neutral....
Or maybe I play my CN characters a little more homicidlly...
(shoot, that's most of my characters....)

[Peelee]

He does appear to make an effort towards being chaotic neutral....

No, he makes an effort toward being a team player. Dream Shojo never said, "hey, stop being so kill-happy."

[Fyraltari]

Hey, he had remorse over ripping off that gnome girl and he saved the bounty hunters because he could relate to them. He may not like it, but he is becoming better less bad in non-team related ways.

[Peelee]

Hey, he had remorse over ripping off that gnome girl and he saved the bounty hunters because he could relate to them. He may not like it, but he is becoming better less bad in non-team related ways.

Is an unrepentant murderer who ripped off a gnome less bad about ripping off a gnome that much less bad, though? At absolute best, it's baby steps when he got off an intercontinental flight, is all I'm saying.

[Fyraltari]

Is an unrepentant murderer who ripped off a gnome less bad about ripping off a gnome that much less bad, though? At absolute best, it's baby steps when he got off an intercontinental flight, is all I'm saying.

Gotta start somewhere. It’s not like I said he was a good person or anything, but one must give due credits.

[Rrmcklin]

While I understand the point Peelee is trying to make, I feel like he also comes pretty close to arguing that "redemption isn't possible" and I don't think that's supposed to be the vibe we're supposed to be taking away from Belkar and his character arc at all.

[Fish]

I think it’s because you’re discussing two different things, as I said. There’s a person’s mental framework, and whether their actions live up to that label.

Take a chaotic evil guard who lives in a lawful good society. He enforces all the same laws as his fellow guards, but he took the job so he could legally hurt people and he enjoys punishing the wrongdoers a little too much. The totality of his actions say he’s lawful good ... if we ignore his mindset and motivation. (And some of you might say “he’s not chaotic evil if he doesn’t act like it.” That’s the problem with the totality-of-actions argument in a nutshell.)

[Peelee]

While I understand the point Peelee is trying to make, I feel like he also comes pretty close to arguing that "redemption isn't possible"

Nah; I'm a very vocal supporter of "oh hey look V is totally on a redemption arc." Redemption for Belkar is absolutely possible, and I'll jump on that train the second he makes any indication whatsoever that killing people or selling people into slavery or any of his heinous actions were wrong, instead of just not taking a gnome on a date after scamming her. Hell, it should be even easier for Belkar, because he didn't commit friggin' genocide, and yet.

[RatElemental]

Nah; I'm a very vocal supporter of "oh hey look V is totally on a redemption arc." Redemption for Belkar is absolutely possible, and I'll jump on that train the second he makes any indication whatsoever that killing people or selling people into slavery or any of his heinous actions were wrong, instead of just not taking a gnome on a date after scamming her. Hell, it should be even easier for Belkar, because he didn't commit friggin' genocide, and yet.

Well, since Durkon gave him a different way to think about it, I think we might actually get some introspection and remorse from Belkar at some point before the comic's end.

[Wizard_Lizard]

well, since durkon gave him a different way to think about it, i think we might actually get some introspection and remorse from belkar at some point before the comic's end.

hardcore introspection!!!

[Senamar]

Like the prophecy that says "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year"? Or the one that says "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," where the Oracle is clearly talking about a male halfling?

Maybe he'll loot a ring of no-breathing or something. The prophecy could be fulfilled in a number of surprising ways.

[Peelee]

Maybe he'll loot a ring of no-breathing or something. The prophecy could be fulfilled in a number of surprising ways.

There's multiple prophecies, though, and even if Belkar gets, say, iridescent spindle and clear spindle ioun stones (lets him survive without air and food/water, respectively), and gets Plane Shifted over to the elemental plane of earth with infinite gold and diamonds, there's still the unexplained bit of "why did the Oracle take such pleasure in that?"

[RatElemental]

There's multiple prophecies, though, and even if Belkar gets, say, iridescent spindle and clear spindle ioun stones (lets him survive without air and food/water, respectively), and gets Plane Shifted over to the elemental plane of earth with infinite gold and diamonds, there's still the unexplained bit of "why did the Oracle take such pleasure in that?"

Because he gets separated from Mr. Scruffy?

Though if he somehow achieves immortality and then gets trapped in a sealed vault on another plane for eternity I think that qualifies as a fate worse than death to many people. At least an afterlife has things happen and you eventually stop existing.

[Fish]

We might also ask, “Why did the Oracle tell Roy at all?”

If Roy never acts on this information (and likewise anyone else who knows), then either the Oracle just wanted Roy to know, or Rich was using the Oracle to do some clumsy foreshadowing. Neither of those, as far as I can see, conveys an in-story reason for the Oracle to reveal the information.

On the other hand, if someone can be expected to act on this information, the Oracle’s purpose could be to provoke said action. For instance:

• Someone tells Belkar he’s doomed to die anyway, so Belkar sacrifices himself. The Oracle could be said to have provoked the sacrifice, an event at which he might reasonably take pleasure.
• Someone who knows the prophecy tries to prevent Belkar’s death. Whether the intervention “works,” the Oracle provoked the attempt, with whatever attendant consequences ensue.
• Someone who knows the prophecy stands by and lets Belkar die, despite being in a position to rescue him. This doesn’t seem like the sort of story arc Rich would go for, as it is pretty fatalist and would constitute a betrayal of Belkar not to try.

[Rrmcklin]

We might also ask, “Why did the Oracle tell Roy at all?”

If Roy never acts on this information (and likewise anyone else who knows), then either the Oracle just wanted Roy to know, or Rich was using the Oracle to do some clumsy foreshadowing. Neither of those, as far as I can see, conveys an in-story reason for the Oracle to reveal the information.

On the other hand, if someone can be expected to act on this information, the Oracle’s purpose could be to provoke said action. For instance:

• Someone tells Belkar he’s doomed to die anyway, so Belkar sacrifices himself. The Oracle could be said to have provoked the sacrifice, an event at which he might reasonably take pleasure.
• Someone who knows the prophecy tries to prevent Belkar’s death. Whether the intervention “works,” the Oracle provoked the attempt, with whatever attendant consequences ensue.
• Someone who knows the prophecy stands by and lets Belkar die, despite being in a position to rescue him. This doesn’t seem like the sort of story arc Rich would go for, as it is pretty fatalist and would constitute a betrayal of Belkar not to try.

Because the Oracle is an ass who enjoys taunting people? That's definitely what he was doing to Belkar, at first. The full prophecy to Roy might very well have just be an attempt at clarification on the Giant's part. One that didn't work, because:

1) a lot of people automatically distrust prophecies when they seem to clearly be indicating one thing and 2) because a lot of people like Belkar and thus try to come up with ways all the things the Oracle said and his enjoyment of them could mean anything besides Belkar's permanent death.

[Mandor]

I think it’s because you’re discussing two different things, as I said. There’s a person’s mental framework, and whether their actions live up to that label.

Take a chaotic evil guard who lives in a lawful good society. He enforces all the same laws as his fellow guards, but he took the job so he could legally hurt people and he enjoys punishing the wrongdoers a little too much. The totality of his actions say he’s lawful good ... if we ignore his mindset and motivation. (And some of you might say “he’s not chaotic evil if he doesn’t act like it.” That’s the problem with the totality-of-actions argument in a nutshell.)

Said Chaotic Evil guard probably wasn't on the job 24/7/365 having no other interactions with any other sapient life forms except while acting as a guard.
So there would generally be other "off-the-clock actions" that would seal the deal of them NOT making Celestia.
Still, I grant the hypothetical argument.

On the flip side though, take your random rampaging warlord who routinely enslaves and murdalizes and rapes and puts entire cities to the sword for giggles, burns people alive, etc.
If, at the last five seconds of his life he has a MASSIVE epiphany and truly regrets and repents every action he's ever taken and becomes absolutely Lawful Good in every possible manner for those last 5 seconds....
yea, too little too late, and if he's really LG, he should understand and accept "too little too late" when his judgement comes.

So I'm sure the Powers That Be kinda have to case-by-case it all.

[Tvtyrant]

Plus he has spent his life doing evil. You don't get to counteract a lifetime of evil with the occasional good-ish act, especially if said good act is being done for largely selfish reasons.

I don't think Good and Evil work like that. You don't have a ledger and once you get a net balance you become that alignment, you are good or evil via intent and attempted actions. If Belkar sincerely sought to redeem himself and personally apologize to every person he hurt, then tripped and died on the first day he still would no longer be evil. Maybe not Good yet, but certainly not evil.

Edit: Belkar is still totally evil though. There isn't much suggesting any transition in that, he came to a small personality change by realizing they were going to kill him if he didn't act better. His relationship with Durkon is touching but hardly enough to shift him from self-serving jerk to good guy.