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Thread: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
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2019-05-22, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
I think he is still evil he is just smarter about it.
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2019-05-22, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
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2019-05-24, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Belkar's soul is going to get annihilated so the readers won't be sure what afterlife he'll deserve.
...is my personal theory.
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2019-05-24, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
In my opinion, he's loyal to those that have earned his loyalty, but he's still selfish and a bastard to everyone else.
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2019-05-24, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
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2019-05-24, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-05-24, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
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2019-05-24, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-05-24, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-05-24 at 05:36 PM.
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-05-24, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2019-05-24, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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2019-05-24, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
It depends on whether you consider alignment “the totality of your past actions and intentions, the sum of which determines which afterlife you deserve” or “your organizational mindset and driving purpose.” Neither definition really suits all cases.
The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2019-05-25, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Based on the "it's the effort that counts" vibe, it's probably that as long as you're alive (aka having direct influence upon the world around you) you can be redeemed.
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2019-05-25, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
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2019-05-25, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-05-25, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Hey, he had remorse over ripping off that gnome girl and he saved the bounty hunters because he could relate to them. He may not like it, but he is becoming
betterless bad in non-team related ways.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-05-25, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-05-25, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-05-25, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
While I understand the point Peelee is trying to make, I feel like he also comes pretty close to arguing that "redemption isn't possible" and I don't think that's supposed to be the vibe we're supposed to be taking away from Belkar and his character arc at all.
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2019-05-25, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
I think it’s because you’re discussing two different things, as I said. There’s a person’s mental framework, and whether their actions live up to that label.
Take a chaotic evil guard who lives in a lawful good society. He enforces all the same laws as his fellow guards, but he took the job so he could legally hurt people and he enjoys punishing the wrongdoers a little too much. The totality of his actions say he’s lawful good ... if we ignore his mindset and motivation. (And some of you might say “he’s not chaotic evil if he doesn’t act like it.” That’s the problem with the totality-of-actions argument in a nutshell.)The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2019-05-25, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Nah; I'm a very vocal supporter of "oh hey look V is totally on a redemption arc." Redemption for Belkar is absolutely possible, and I'll jump on that train the second he makes any indication whatsoever that killing people or selling people into slavery or any of his heinous actions were wrong, instead of just not taking a gnome on a date after scamming her. Hell, it should be even easier for Belkar, because he didn't commit friggin' genocide, and yet.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-05-26, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2019-05-26, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
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2019-05-28, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
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2019-05-28, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
There's multiple prophecies, though, and even if Belkar gets, say, iridescent spindle and clear spindle ioun stones (lets him survive without air and food/water, respectively), and gets Plane Shifted over to the elemental plane of earth with infinite gold and diamonds, there's still the unexplained bit of "why did the Oracle take such pleasure in that?"
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-28 at 04:49 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-05-28, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
- Gender
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Because he gets separated from Mr. Scruffy?
Though if he somehow achieves immortality and then gets trapped in a sealed vault on another plane for eternity I think that qualifies as a fate worse than death to many people. At least an afterlife has things happen and you eventually stop existing.
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2019-05-28, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
We might also ask, “Why did the Oracle tell Roy at all?”
If Roy never acts on this information (and likewise anyone else who knows), then either the Oracle just wanted Roy to know, or Rich was using the Oracle to do some clumsy foreshadowing. Neither of those, as far as I can see, conveys an in-story reason for the Oracle to reveal the information.
On the other hand, if someone can be expected to act on this information, the Oracle’s purpose could be to provoke said action. For instance:
- Someone tells Belkar he’s doomed to die anyway, so Belkar sacrifices himself. The Oracle could be said to have provoked the sacrifice, an event at which he might reasonably take pleasure.
- Someone who knows the prophecy tries to prevent Belkar’s death. Whether the intervention “works,” the Oracle provoked the attempt, with whatever attendant consequences ensue.
- Someone who knows the prophecy stands by and lets Belkar die, despite being in a position to rescue him. This doesn’t seem like the sort of story arc Rich would go for, as it is pretty fatalist and would constitute a betrayal of Belkar not to try.
The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2019-05-28, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2018
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Because the Oracle is an ass who enjoys taunting people? That's definitely what he was doing to Belkar, at first. The full prophecy to Roy might very well have just be an attempt at clarification on the Giant's part. One that didn't work, because:
1) a lot of people automatically distrust prophecies when they seem to clearly be indicating one thing and 2) because a lot of people like Belkar and thus try to come up with ways all the things the Oracle said and his enjoyment of them could mean anything besides Belkar's permanent death.Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-05-28 at 07:20 PM.
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2019-05-28, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
Said Chaotic Evil guard probably wasn't on the job 24/7/365 having no other interactions with any other sapient life forms except while acting as a guard.
So there would generally be other "off-the-clock actions" that would seal the deal of them NOT making Celestia.
Still, I grant the hypothetical argument.
On the flip side though, take your random rampaging warlord who routinely enslaves and murdalizes and rapes and puts entire cities to the sword for giggles, burns people alive, etc.
If, at the last five seconds of his life he has a MASSIVE epiphany and truly regrets and repents every action he's ever taken and becomes absolutely Lawful Good in every possible manner for those last 5 seconds....
yea, too little too late, and if he's really LG, he should understand and accept "too little too late" when his judgement comes.
So I'm sure the Powers That Be kinda have to case-by-case it all.
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2019-05-28, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
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Re: Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?
I don't think Good and Evil work like that. You don't have a ledger and once you get a net balance you become that alignment, you are good or evil via intent and attempted actions. If Belkar sincerely sought to redeem himself and personally apologize to every person he hurt, then tripped and died on the first day he still would no longer be evil. Maybe not Good yet, but certainly not evil.
Edit: Belkar is still totally evil though. There isn't much suggesting any transition in that, he came to a small personality change by realizing they were going to kill him if he didn't act better. His relationship with Durkon is touching but hardly enough to shift him from self-serving jerk to good guy.