Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?

[Wizard_Lizard]

IMO you do need to at least show signs of repenting or regretting all your previous misdeeds, and of seeking to make up for them.

It is harder to rid yourself of the evil alignment.
But for Belkar to become neutral, does he have to be [|]good?[/|]

[Peelee]

He got annoyed that he only got charged with manslaughter....

He was annoyed at not getting full credit. Still didn't want to go to prison, and still tried to get out of it.

When Girard's illusion hit, Belkar's dream wasn't in the Abyss, ya know?

I may be wrong, but I don't think that's how alignment works in D&D. If you spend your entire life being evil, then start being good, I don't think you need to make up for all your previous misdeeds before your alignment changes. After all, think about the opposite: If you spend your entire life being a paladin and saving thousands of innocent lives, and then suddenly start murdering innocent people, do you really need to murder enough innocent people to make up for ll the lives you saved before your alignment changes? No, when you start murdering innocent people your alignment changes, either to Neutral or Evil. Your past good deeds aren't taken into account.

I agree, it is harder to end up Good.

[D.One]

It is harder to rid yourself of the evil alignment.
But for Belkar to become neutral, does he have to be [|]good?[/|]

He may be a Bad Boy, but he doesn't have to be bad. (imagine Zangief speaking this with a fake russian accent)

[Jannoire]

When Girard's illusion hit, Belkar's dream wasn't in the Abyss, ya know?

That's because he didn't die...

[Peelee]

That's because he didn't die...

I think you might be missing the point. The point is Belkar's shared illusion did not include going to the Abyss, and he was not annoyed by that, which drastically undercuts the claim that Belkar would be annoyed by not going to the Abyss.

[Emnom]

Comic 606 He pretends to have character development. He is still CE

[Wizard_Lizard]

Comic 606 He pretends to have character development. He is still CE

or is he only pretejding to pretend to have character degelopement?

[MartianInvader]

I think he's showing genuine character development. I think he genuinely feels bad he hit Durkon in the face with that palm tree. I don't think it's at the point of an alignment change yet, but he's on the path.

[Doug Lampert]

I think he's showing genuine character development. I think he genuinely feels bad he hit Durkon in the face with that palm tree. I don't think it's at the point of an alignment change yet, but he's on the path.

I'll agree, but there's a point, having mild regret that you viciously assaulted a teammate who later died to save you, is still a long long way from non-evil.

Evil can have teammates that the character cares about. Evil can cooperate with teammates. Evil can regret hurting teammates.

Belkar isn't yet showing ANY signs of good or even neutral, he's showing signs of maybe being ONLY as evil as the IFCC or Sabine, both of whom are capable of working as part of a team better than pre-pretending to have character development Belkar.

The Giant sets the bar for neutral vastly lower than I would, but that said, I still don't see Belkar doing any actual good deeds to balance off all the Evil he's done. The Giant's quote for Belkar's alignment is here.

Consider the phrase:
In order to be Neutral you need to either a.) commit no Good or Evil acts at all, or b.) commit a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts.

We now have Belkar feeling very mild regret for an Evil act, but I don't think we're anywhere close to a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts.

[archon_huskie]

I mean… …He certainly has done some evil stuff… …But… …Recently he is pushing more chaotic neutral even to chaotic good at times…

So let us discuss… the homicidal halfling…

What do you mean still? He's always been Lawful Good!

[PontificatusRex]

Mechanically, in #1130 we see him being zapped awake by the pain of having his Protection from Evil pin activated, so the Universe still regards him as evil.

[Peelee]

I think he's showing genuine character development. I think he genuinely feels bad he hit Durkon in the face with that palm tree. I don't think it's at the point of an alignment change yet, but he's on the path.

Belkar's caracter development makes him less one-dimensional, not less Evil.

[Ruck]

Rich also defines alignment (or the "real you") as "how you act on your worst day".

[citation needed]

[hamishspence]

This quote comes close, but it doesn't exactly say that:

You reveal who you really are under stress—stress doesn't magically turn you into someone else unrelated to who you usually are. The fact that you may not have ever known that this is who you were doesn't change anything.

I don't think Tarquin sat around thinking, "Ha ha! I am fooling them into thinking I love my family! I am so clever!" I think he thought that he really loved his family, right up until the point where loving his family conflicted with him being in total control. And then both he and the readers got to see which one of the two really mattered to him.

In other words, when I use the word "facade," I am not referring to a conscious artifice on Tarquin's part. I am referring to the idea that the true core of his being is hidden—possibly even from himself—until the crucible of the story burns it out of him. This is why it was in conflict with comments on this thread about people in real life who segregate their evil actions from the love of family—because in real life, there's no guarantee that such a crucible moment will ever occur.

[Jannoire]

I think you might be missing the point. The point is Belkar's shared illusion did not include going to the Abyss, and he was not annoyed by that, which drastically undercuts the claim that Belkar would be annoyed by not going to the Abyss.

What illusion did Belkar share? Do you mean the one in the pyramid? That he shares with Mr Scruffy?
I might be wrong, but I recall reading that that was supposed to be in the living world, sharing a nice meal with a resurrected Shojo and their beloved cat.

[Peelee]

What illusion did Belkar share? Do you mean the one in the pyramid? That he shares with Mr Scruffy?
I might be wrong, but I recall reading that that was supposed to be in the living world, sharing a nice meal with a resurrected Shojo and their beloved cat.

Nah, you're right and I'm wrong. Still, Belkar griped about the legal charges not being appropriate, but still wanted to stay out of prison. Don't see why it'd be any different for the afterlife, especially considering it's notably worse than prison.

[Ruck]

This quote comes close, but it doesn't exactly say that:

No, I don't really think it says that. The phrase in quotes is something Durkula says to Durkon, which not only is later refuted by Durkon, but even if it wasn't, it would take a lot to convince me Durkula was acting as a mouthpiece for Rich in the strip.

[Jannoire]

I'm no expert on D&D afterlife and by no means on OotS afterlife, but I would guess Belkar would prefer an eternity chilling with Mr S in the CN afterlife to having to endure an eternity (of pain, probably) in the CE afterlife.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'm no expert on D&D afterlife and by no means on OotS afterlife, but I would guess Belkar would prefer an eternity chilling with Mr S in the CN afterlife to having to endure an eternity (of pain, probably) in the CE afterlife.

But shojo is chaotic good not neutral.....

[factotum]

I'm no expert on D&D afterlife and by no means on OotS afterlife, but I would guess Belkar would prefer an eternity chilling with Mr S in the CN afterlife to having to endure an eternity (of pain, probably) in the CE afterlife.

Belkar is a high-level character. He wouldn't be wasted by just tormenting him, they've have him on the front lines of the Blood War. Fighting and killing for eternity? Heck yes Belkar would love that!

[Jannoire]

But shojo is chaotic good not neutral.....

Okay, maybe saying Mr S wasn't that great... I meant his cat, Mr Scruffy. He obviously wouldn't be chilling with Shojo.
I don't think he will have enough time to change to CG, even if he'd try. But I see CN in the realm of possibilities...

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar is a high-level character. He wouldn't be wasted by just tormenting him, they've have him on the front lines of the Blood War. Fighting and killing for eternity? Heck yes Belkar would love that!

The living Belkar is high level. He dies, he becomes a 2HD petitioner like everyone else, and can eventually hope to advance to Dretch.

If his soul has any extra soul energy, whichever of the evil gods and established demon princess happens to grab it will not even say "thank you very much" as they chow down on a nice meal of soul stuff to help power the only important person in the multiverse (hint: according to the demon prince or evil god, that most important person isn't Belkar).

The ILLUSION that you might get a better deal is part of what Evil sells.

"I'm special, I'll be at the top or the right hand man of the guy at the top" is said by any number of evil guys before they end up as an entry level chew-toy in the abyss.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar's caracter development makes him less one-dimensional, not less Evil.

Thank you.

Belkar is a high-level character. He wouldn't be wasted by just tormenting him, they've have him on the front lines of the Blood War. Fighting and killing for eternity? Heck yes Belkar would love that!

Sexy, shoeless god of war ...

[Bacon Elemental]

The living Belkar is high level. He dies, he becomes a 2HD petitioner like everyone else, and can eventually hope to advance to Dretch.

If his soul has any extra soul energy, whichever of the evil gods and established demon princess happens to grab it will not even say "thank you very much" as they chow down on a nice meal of soul stuff to help power the only important person in the multiverse (hint: according to the demon prince or evil god, that most important person isn't Belkar).

The ILLUSION that you might get a better deal is part of what Evil sells.

"I'm special, I'll be at the top or the right hand man of the guy at the top" is said by any number of evil guys before they end up as an entry level chew-toy in the abyss.

What about those incredibly powerful souls that the IFCC had on them? If all dead people become petitioners, how did they retain those powerful casters, who only needed a host to begin slinging around epic magic again?

[Doug Lampert]

What about those incredibly powerful souls that the IFCC had on them? If all dead people become petitioners, how did they retain those powerful casters, who only needed a host to begin slinging around epic magic again?

Special once every hundred years deal, and note: Those powerful casters NEEDED a host to begin slinging around epic magic again. If someone uses powerful magic to stuff Belkar's soul back into a living body, he'll return to being dangerous.

That says nothing positive about what he can do without the assistance of powerful magic.

Those Epic casters weren't on the top in their afterlives, they were happy to get a bit of time away from them. Belkar is nowhere near that strong. He will also not be on the top in his afterlife unless Rich does something odd about his death that doesn't involve his soul getting eaten.

[RaveDave92084]

When it comes to Belkar, I see him as still chaotic evil, still measured in kilonazis.

Whatever character development he has actually achieved, he is still in the deepest darkest depths of evil.

• Evil has friends
• Evil loves specific people
• Evil will sacrifice for specific people
• Evil will express regret and remorse over hurting specific people

Metaphor time!!!!

Imagine good/evil as the earth as we know it. Don't get too specific with it, or you will kill the metaphor.

Good is North Pole
Evil is South Pole
Neutrality is the Equator

At the start of the comic Belkar had a 26-room mansion firmly planted squarely at the South Pole. Maybe the South Pole is in the middle of his house.

During the hippy vision quest thing he did, he decided to walk outside his house to pretend to smell the flowers, like the other idiots are doing. He found out he likes some of those flowers.

His journey is and was going north, but he is still at the south pole, and doesn't even get close enough to see the Antarctic ice shelf, let alone Patagonia in Argentina or Pretoria, South Africa. I don't see getting to the equator (neutrality) as a remote possibility at this point.

I love the guy, I love what he does for the story, I love his character development; but I don't see redemption at this point in the story.

It is a possibility, maybe based on my own pessimistically hopeful nature, but not a probability.

Hmmmm, I think have a deceased horse to bury, need to stop beating it, I am not sure it likes the beatings.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hmmmm, I think have a deceased horse to bury, need to stop beating it, I am not sure it likes the beatings.

While I began to sniff a bit of glue when we got to Pretoria, I like your illustration.

[Riftwolf]

I think you might be missing the point. The point is Belkar's shared illusion did not include going to the Abyss, and he was not annoyed by that, which drastically undercuts the claim that Belkar would be annoyed by not going to the Abyss.

In Belkars shared illusion, he didn't go to the CG afterlife either. There's a Giant quote clarifying that. It doesn't make any sense to us, but it makes sense to Mr. Scruffy, which is all it needed to do.
I don't think Belkar would be annoyed at not going to the Abyss (seeing as it's not exactly a CE Pleasuredome), but the illusion can't be considered evidence of anything other than Belkar wanting to look after his cat.

[Peelee]

In Belkars shared illusion, he didn't go to the CG afterlife either. There's a Giant quote clarifying that. It doesn't make any sense to us, but it makes sense to Mr. Scruffy, which is all it needed to do.
I don't think Belkar would be annoyed at not going to the Abyss (seeing as it's not exactly a CE Pleasuredome), but the illusion can't be considered evidence of anything other than Belkar wanting to look after his cat.

Too late, I already copped to being wrong on that!

[woweedd]

I mean, he’s less Evil then he used to be, but dude was basically carving out a third sub-basement of the barrel. To redeem, you need to, first and foremost, acknowledge that your past actions were WRONG, and Belkar’s only just now doing that. If he had a year or two, it might be possible for him to, slowly and painstakingly, repent. As stands...Pretty much his only chance is pulling a Darth Vader-style “sacrifice yourself to save the entire world” thing, like some sort of inverse Familcide, but, given that said incident DIDN’T make V Evil, although it would have had they not repented, i’m not sure any single act of Good, even one of that scale, would lump him into CN. He hasn’t done anything worse then CN this whole book, but neither has he done much Good...Hard to judge.

Also, I imagine Belkar would be offended to be put in Limbo rather then The Abyss...But not because he wants to be in The Abyss, just because he takes pride in being CE, or, at least, he did before his recent conversations with Durkon. Heck, if my theory pans out, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Epilogue featured Belkar standing in front of a Sladd, as he rants about he was CE all his life.