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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Oct 2010

    Default Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    A while back I looked through the spell lists to take out all spells that have longer than 1 round casting and put them in a special category of Rituals and Runes, to prevent people from accidentally choosing spells that take too long to cast or accidentally cheating by casting them in a shorter time period.

    I wanted to write up the Wizard /Sorceror spell list wtih those spells gone, AND I've taken the opportunity to reorganize the spell list and address some of my other problems with it.

    First problem is that this is a spell list that serves 10 classes.

    1) Wizard

    2) Sorceror

    3) each and every specialist of all eight schools of magic

    The main thing I've done for sorcerors is to recombine some of the spells that were reversible in earlier editions, this gives them some added versatility without upping their power too much.

    Specialists required most of the re-ordering, not only making sure that they started out with enough cool spells to cast and making sure that they had enough spells when leveling up, but also trying to tighten up the thematic elements of the specialties.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Cantrips

    Abjuration

    Endure Elements
    Feather Fall
    Hold Portal

    Conjuration

    Unseen Servant
    Summon Pest

    Divination

    Detect Magic
    Detect Poison
    Detect Secret Doors
    Detect Undead

    Enchantment

    Daze
    Distract

    Evocation

    Acid Splash
    Fire Finger
    Ray of Frost

    Illusion

    Dancing Lights
    Flare
    Ghost Sound
    Magic Aura

    Necromancy

    Disrupt Undead
    Exterminate
    Touch of Fatigue

    Transmutation

    Arcane Mark
    Coif
    Erase
    Mending

    Most of the first level spells that were moved to cantrips were spells that I don't think are worth a first level slot. Unseen Servant was moved down for Conjuration, because it seemed like the least exciting first level spell of that school and Conjuration needed another cantrip.

    All the light spells were taken out of Evocation and moved to Illusion because I think that light and darkness spells are more properly in Illusion. All the telekinesis type spells were taken out of Transmutation and moved to Evocation for similar reasons. Arcane Mark was moved to Transmutation because I don't like unschooled spells. Feather Fall was moved from Transmutation to Abjuration because it's only interesting as a protective spell. Acid Splash was moved from Conjuration to Evocation because it doesn't fit into Conjuration's theme.

    Read Magic was eliminated because I've never liked that spell as additional tax to learn spells or use scrolls. Mage Hand and Open/Close were eliminated because they do similar things and are weaker than Unseen Servant which is now a cantrip. Prestidigitation was eliminated because I'm getting rid of all of the anything spells.

    Because Prestidigitation was eliminated I adapted some cantrips from prior editions that I remember as fun.

    Message was moved up to first level because I think it does something no other first level spell does and has an effect that people could be excited about casting. Light was moved to first level so it can be combined with Darkness.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    1st Level

    Abjuration

    Obscure Object
    Protection from (Alignment)
    Resist Energy

    Conjuration

    Mount
    Obscuring Mist
    Summon Monster I

    Divination

    Alarm
    Comprehend Languages
    Locate Object
    Message
    Speak with Animals

    Enchantment

    Cause Fear
    Charm Person
    Daze Monster
    Hypnotism
    Sleep

    Evocation

    Burning Hands
    Floating Disk
    Grease
    Magic Missile
    Shield
    Shocking Grasp

    Illusion

    Color Spray
    Darkness / Light
    Disguise Self
    Silent Image
    Ventriloquism

    Necromancy

    Chill Touch
    Command Undead
    Ray of Enfeeblement
    Stolen Breath

    Transmutation

    Animate Rope
    Enlarge Person / Reduce Person
    Expeditious Retreat
    Jump
    Magic Weapon

    Resist Energy, Locate Object and Command Undead were moved down to first level in order to give Abjurers, Diviners and Necromancers something cool to do at first level that makes them feel they are masters at those forms of magic right from level one.

    Daze Monster were moved down to first level because I don't think that they are good enough to be second level.

    Darkness was moved down to first level and combined with Light. The combined spell was moved to Illsion because light and darkness spells belong in Illusion.

    Mage Armor and True Strike were moved up to second level because I think that's where those kinds of buffs belong.

    Obscure Object were moved to first level because they are the counters to Knock and Locate Object.

    Alarm was moved to Divination because it works by providing knowledge to the caster. Message was moved to Divination because I think that communication spells should be Divination. Grease was moved from Conjuration to Evocation because I don't think it fits into Conjuration's theme. Cause Fear was moved to Enchantment because I think that emotion spells should be Enchantment. Shield was moved to Evocation because I think that force spells should be Evocation.

    Speak with Animals and Stolen Breath were added to Divination and Necromancy because those schools don't have enough spells.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    2nd Level

    Abjuration

    Magic Circle Against Evil
    Misdirection
    Phantom Trap
    Protection from Energy

    Conjuration

    Fog Cloud
    Gust of Wind
    Summon Monster II
    Summon Swarm

    Divination

    Darkvision
    Detect Thoughts
    True Strike
    Whispering Wind

    Enchantment

    Hideous Laughter
    Hold Person
    Scare
    Touch of Idiocy

    Evocation

    Acid Arrow
    Flaming Sphere
    Levitate
    Mage Armor
    Scorching Ray
    Web

    Illusion

    Blur
    Continual Flame
    Magic Mouth
    Major Image
    Shatter

    Necromancy
    Blindness/Deafness
    Ghoul Touch
    Halt Undead
    Ray of Weakness

    Transmutation

    Flame Arrow
    Keen Edge
    Magic Weapon, Greater
    Pyrotechnics
    Spider Climb

    I hate Bear's Endurance et al. I think those spells are both boring and somehow have become necessary. I think the game is better without them. Flame Arrow, Keen Edge and Greater Magic Weapon were moved down from 3rd level to help fill that gap.

    Invisibility is an iconic power and is often compared to Flight in "Which superpower would you like to have in real life?" questions. I moved Invisibility up to third level because I think it can compete there. Having done that I had yo move See Invisibility and Glitterdust to third level because they are Invisibility counters.

    Protection from Arrows was moved to third level because ranged combat becomes necessary around that level and so that's the level when the anti-ranged combat spell should come into play.

    Alter Self was moved to third because it is very very good.

    Protection from Energy was moved down to second level because I don't think it's that much better than Resist , which I had moved down to first level. Likewise I don't think that Magic Circle Against (Alignment) is that much better than Protection From Evil

    Hold Person and Halt Undead were moved to second level because I don't think that they can compete with third level spells.

    I took a look at the spells that have Image in the name and I noticed that most of them, save Silent Image and Mirror Image, were very underpowered for their levels. So I eliminated Minor Image, moved Major Image to down to second level, and moved Mirror Image up to third.

    False Life was moved up to third level because it's that good.

    Misdirection and Phantom Trap were moved from Illusion to Abjuration because Illusion has too many spells and Abjuration has too few.

    Dark Vision was moved to Divination because it provides information and Whispering Wind because it provides communication.

    Shatter was moved to Illusion because sound spells belong in Illusion.

    Levitate was moved to Evocation because telekinesis spells belong in Evocation

    Gust of Wind was moved to Conjuration because weather spells belong in Conjuration.

    Acid Arrow and Web were moved from Conjuration to Evocation because they don't fit into the theme of Conjuration.

    Hypnotic Pattern was eliminated because I wanted Hypnosis to be Enchantment and Pattern spells to be Illusion and this spell just confused things.

    Spectral Hand was eliminated because I think it works better as a feat.

    Knock was eliminated because it's not good enough for second level and steps on the rogue's toes at first level. Arcane Lock was then moved up to third level because it no longer has an easy counter.

    Rope Trick was eliminated because it's too confusing to place.

    Ray of Weakness was added because Necromancy doesn't have enough spells.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 10:03 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    3rd Level

    Abjuration

    Arcane Lock
    Dispel Magic
    Nondetection
    Protection from Arrows

    Conjuration

    Blink
    Lightning Bolt
    Sleet Storm
    Summon Monster III

    Divination

    Arcane Sight
    Chain of Eyes
    See Invisibility
    Telepathic Bond, Lesser
    Tongues

    Enchantment

    Deep Slumber
    Fear
    Rage
    Suggestion

    Evocation

    Explosive Runes
    Fireball
    Fly
    Glitterdust
    Tiny Hut

    Illusion

    Armor of Darkness
    Daylight/Deeper Darkness
    Displacement
    Invisibility
    Mirror Image

    Necromancy

    Contagion
    False Life
    Ray of Exhaustion
    Vampiric Touch

    Transmutation

    Alter Self
    Gaseous Form
    Shrink Item
    Slow
    Water Breathing

    Third level is where the action is.

    Blink was moved from Transmutation to Conjuration because extra-dimensional spells belong in Conjuration. Lightning Bolt was moved from Evocation to Conjuration because weather spells belong in Conjuration. Glitterdust was moved from Conjuration to Evocation because it's neither an extra-dimensional nor weather spell.

    Fear and Heroism swapped levels because I thought it was weird to skip a level in the "scary" spell progression.

    Invisibility Sphere was moved up to fourth because Invisibility was moved up to third.

    Haste and Slow were not combined because Haste is already one of the best third level spells by itself and Slow is also a pretty decent spell by itself as well. In fact, Haste is so good I moved it up to fourth level.

    Wind Wall was moved up to fourth because Protection from Arrows was moved up to third.

    Stinking Cloud was moved up to fourth level because it's that good.

    Contagion was moved down to third because it's not good enough.

    Chain of Eyes was added because Divination doesn't have enough spells. Armor of Darkness was added because there aren't enough darkness themed spells to solidify the light and darkness theme of Illusion. Deeper Darkness was added to Daylight because I saw no harm in that.

    Gentle Repose was eliminated because it's not good enough to be a spell.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    4th Level

    Abjuration

    Dimensional Anchor
    Glob of Invulnerability, Lesser
    Wall of Fire
    Wall of Ice
    Wind Wall

    Conjuration

    Black Tentacles
    Dimension Door
    Ice Storm
    Summon Monster IV

    Divination

    Detect Scrying
    Listening Coin
    Locate Creature
    Speak with Plants

    Enchantment

    Charm Monster
    Confusion
    Geas, Lesser
    Heroism

    Evocation

    Fire Shield
    Interposing Hand
    Overland Flight
    Resilient Sphere

    Illusion

    False Vision
    Invisibility Sphere
    Persistent Image
    Phantasmal Killer
    Seeming

    Necromancy

    Animate Dead
    Blight
    Enervation

    Transmutation

    Animal Growth
    Displacer Form
    Enlarge Person, Mass / Reduce Person, Mass
    Haste
    Stone Shape

    When I combined Bestow Curse and Remove Curse, the combined spell fit in neither Abjuration nor Necromancy so I placed it in the grab bag school of Transmutation, and it was now good enough to be moved to fifth level.

    Crushing Despair, Polymorph, Rainbow Pattern, Solid Fog and Stoneskin were moved up to fifth because they're that good.

    Animal Growth, Blight, False Vision, Overland Flight and Seeming were moved down to fourth because they're not that good.

    Shout was moved up to fifth because I like the progression of the sound spells being 2/5/8

    Persistent Image was moved down to fourth because it's the next Image spell in the line.

    The Bigby's Hand line peters out at high level and isn't too overpowering at mid-level, so I moved them each down a level.

    Wind Wall was moved from Evocation to Abjuration because it's a better version of Protection from Arrows.

    Greater Invisibility was moved up to fifth because Invisibility Sphere was moved up from third.

    Shadow Conjuration was eliminated because I don't like anything spells.

    Wall of Fire and Wall of Ice were moved to Abjuration because Wall spells belong in Abjuration. Dimension Door was moved to Conjuration because extra-dimensional spells belong in Conjuration. Ice Storm was moved to Conjuration because weather spells belong in Conjuration.

    Displacer Form, Listening Coin, and Speak with Plants were added because Divination and Transmutation don't have enough spells.

    Illusionary Wall was eliminated because it doesn't do anything that the Image line doesn't do and at lower level.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-11 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    5th Level

    Abjuration

    Dismissal
    Repulsion
    Stoneskin
    Wall of Stone

    Conjuration

    Mage's Faithful Hound
    Solid Fog
    Spirit Walk
    Summon Monster V

    Divination

    Discern Lies
    Echo Skull
    Telepathic Bond
    Zone of Revelation

    Enchantment

    Crushing Despair / Good Hope
    Dominate Person
    Feeblemind
    Mind Fog

    Evocation

    Cone of Cold
    Forceful Hand
    Telekinesis

    Illusion

    Invisibility, Greater
    Mirage Arcana
    Programmed Image
    Rainbow Pattern
    Shout

    Necromancy

    Cloudkill
    Eyebite
    Magic Jar
    Waves of Fatigue

    Transmutation

    Baleful Polymorph
    Bestow Curse / Remove Curse
    Passwall
    Polymorph
    Transmute Mud to Rock / Transmute Rock to Mud

    Cloudkill was moved from Conjuration to Necromancy because poison has a strong tie to Necromancy. Wall of Stone was moved from Conjuration to Abjuration because walls belong in Abjuration. Shout was moved from Evocation to Illusion because sound spells belong in Illusion.

    Shadow Walk (renamed Spirit Walk in my games because I use a Plane of Spirits) and Teleport switched levels because I think that Teleport does a similar thing to Shadow Walk, but in a more efficient way. And Shadow Walk is moved from Illusion to Conjuration because it's an extra-dimensional spell.

    I added Good Hope from the Bard list and combined it with Crushing Despair because I saw no harm in doing that.

    Wall of Force was eliminated, because as a wall spell and a force spell it clearly belongs in two schools, and so belongs in neither.

    Eyebite and Repulsion were moved down from sixth because they aren't that good.

    Hold Monster was moved up to sixth because it is that good.

    Programmed Image was moved down from sixth because I think it's a little weaker than Permanent Image.

    Discern Lies, Echo Skull, and Zone or Revelation were added because Divination doesn't have enough spells.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 10:22 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    6th level

    Abjuration

    Antimagic Field
    Dispel Magic, Greater
    Globe of Invulnerability
    Wall of Iron

    Conjuration

    Phase Door
    Plane Shift
    Summon Monster VI
    Teleport

    Divination

    Analyze Dweomer
    Dream Sight
    Probe Thoughts
    True Seeing

    Enchantment

    Heroism, Greater
    Hold Monster
    Insanity
    Suggestion, Mass

    Evocation

    Acid Fog
    Control Water
    Freezing Sphere
    Grasping Hand

    Illusion

    Darkbolt
    Mislead
    Permanent Image
    Veil

    Necromancy

    Circle of Death / Undeath to Death
    Contagion, Mass
    Control Undead
    Flesh Shiver

    Transmutation

    Brilliant Blade
    Flesh to Stone / Stone to Flesh
    Glass Strike
    Statue

    Control Undead, Insanity, Phase Door, Plane Shift, and Statue were all moved down to sixth because I didn't think they were good enough to be seventh.

    Darkbolt was added because Illusion needs more darkness spells to solidify that theme,

    Probe Thoughts was also added from Spell Compendium and given a casting time of 1 round because Divination doesn't have enough spells.

    Brilliant Blade, Dream Sight, Flesh Shiver, Glass Strike, and Mass Contagion were also added because Divination, Necromancy, and Transmutation don't have enough spells.

    Disintegrate was moved up to seventh because I think it's that good.

    Control Water was moved from Transmutation to Evocation because it's a telekinesis spell. Acid Fog was moved from Conjuration to Evocation because it's an acid spell. Wall of Iron was moved from Conjuration to Abjuration because it's a wall spell. Teleport was moved from Transmutation to Conjuration because it's an extra-dimensional spell.

    Mage's Lucubration was eliminated because I consider it an anything spell.

    Tenser's Transmutation was eliminated because it's terrible.

    Contingency was eliminated because it works better as a feat.

    Chain Lightning was eliminated because it works better as metamagicked Lightning
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    7th Level

    Abjuration

    Banishment
    Iron Body
    Spell Turning

    Conjuration

    Ethereal Jaunt
    Instant Summons
    Summon Monster VII

    Divination

    Scrying, Greater
    Telepathic Bond, Interplanar
    Vision

    Enchantment

    Hiss of Sleep
    Hold Person, Mass
    Irresistible Dance

    Evocation

    Clenched Fist
    Forcecage
    Mage's Sword
    Reverse Gravity

    Illusion

    Invisibility, Mass
    Prismatic Spray
    Project Image

    Necromany
    Finger of Death
    Power Word Blind
    Waves of Exhaustion

    Transmutation

    Disintegrate
    Polymorph Any Object
    Sequester

    What? What! Why? Polymorph Any Object was moved down from eighth because I liked the progression of Alter Self at third, Polymorph at fifth, Polymorph Any Object at seventh and Shapechange at ninth.

    Prismatic Spray was moved from Evocation to Illusion because I think color spells belong in Illusion. Reverse Gravity was moved from Transmutation to Evocation because I consider it a telekinesis spell. Power Word Blind was moved from Enchantment to Necromancy because blindness is a Necromancy effect. Sequester was moved from Abjuration to Transmutation because it's a lesser version of Temporal Stasis.

    Iron Body was moved down to seventh because it's not that good AND moved from Transmutation to Abjuration because it's a better version of Stoneskin.

    Irresistible Dance was moved down from eighth because it's not that good.

    Greater Arcane Sight and Greater Teleport were moved up to eighth because they're not that good.

    Hiss of Sleep and Interplanar Telepathic Bond were added because Divination and Enchantment don't have enough spells.

    Delayed Blast Fireball was eliminated because it works better as a metamagicked Fireball.

    Magnificent Mansion and Teleport Object were eliminated because they're too weak and too niche to exist.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    8th Level

    Abjuration

    Dimensional Lock
    Mind Blank
    Protection from Spells

    Conjuration

    Etherealness
    Maze
    Teleport, Greater

    Divination

    Arcane Sight, Greater
    Moment of Prescience

    Enchantment

    Charm Monster, Mass
    Wrathful Castigation

    Evocation

    Crushing Hand
    Incendiary Cloud
    Polar Ray

    Illusion

    Scintillating Pattern
    Shout, Greater
    Sunburst

    Necromancy

    Avascular Mass
    Power Word Stun
    Trap the Soul

    Transmutation

    Elemental Body
    Temporal Stasis

    Trap the Soul is moved from Conjuration to Necromancy because trapping souls is a very Necromancy thing to do. Sunburst is move from Evocation to Illusion because light and darkness spells belong in Illusion. Greater Teleport was moved from Transmutation to Conjuration because it's extra-dimensional. Incendiary Cloud was moved from Conjuration to Evocation because it's a better version of Flaming Sphere. Greater Shout was moved from Evocation to Illusion because it's a sound spell.

    Even though stunning doesn't have a strong Necromancy theme, blindness and killing do, so Power Word Stun is moved to Necromancy to keep that theme consistent.

    Horrid Wilting, Maze and Telekinetic Sphere were moved up to ninth level because they're that good.

    Etherealness was moved down from ninth because it's not that good AND moved from Transmutation to Conjuration because it's extra-dimensional.

    Avascular Mass, Elemental Body and Wrathful Castigation were added because Enchantment, Necromancy and Transmutation don't have enough spells.

    Prismatic Wall was eliminated because it's a color spell and a wall spell and can't be in two schools
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    9th Level

    Abjuration

    Freedom / Imprisonment
    Mage's Disjunction

    Conjuration

    Gate
    Maze
    Summon Monster IX

    Divination

    Brain Spider
    Foresight

    Enchantment

    Dominate Monster
    Hold Monster, Mass
    Maddening Whispers

    Evocation

    Meteor Swarm
    Telekinetic Sphere

    Illusion

    Prismatic Sphere
    Weird

    Necromancy

    Energy Drain
    Horrid Wilting

    Transmutation

    Shapechange
    Time Stop

    I think you understand my logic by now.

    Let me know what you think. Strong Agreements of Disagreements. I'm open to feedback and adjustments.
    Last edited by BlackLamb; 2019-06-09 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Updated the School / Level Shuffle

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Greetings, BlackLamb

    Since you wanted to get rid of Prestidigitation, were you going to bring back any of the Old Cantrips?

    I tend to agree that a Cantrip should not be able to do "anything", and I placed all the "Visual" effects in the Minor Illusion Cantrip, and all the “Sound” effects into Ghost Sound.
    (I also give an Intelligence Save to "resist" Illusions, if they are interacted with)

    I thought some of the Old Cantrips were funny, but am not sure how to convert them to 5e.

    Like "Hairy" being able to instantly grow hair - or a beard. But, it's concentration and only lasts an hour?
    Makes for a more believable Disguise, but is revealed by Detect Magic. Most other Spellcasters would not waste a Dispel Magic on a Cantrip, but if Hairy (or Bald) was combined with either Disguise Self or Alter Self they might.

    Since 5e Cantrips are a bit more potent, would you combine things like "Clean" and "Dirty"?

    *****
    Detect Secret Doors: does this Cantrip just grant Advantage to either Perception or Investigation to find these?

    *****
    Don't forget Fire Bolt is an Evocation.

    *****
    I feel that unless True Strike is a Bonus Action to cast and lasts a minute (concentration) it's not worth a 2nd level slot.

    *****
    No Feather Fall? Gods help the party that falls any real distance….

    *****
    Is Touch of Idiocy a really low level Feeblemind? If so, does the target get a Save each round to break free of the effect?

    *****
    I always felt that the Rebuke spells were for Clerics. With the exception of Hellish Rebuke.

    *****
    Making Spectral Hand a feat seems a bit weak for sacrificing an ASI to get it. I'd just make it a 3rd level Necromancy spell.

    *****
    Permanency as a feat seems ok.
    But, is it needed to make Magical Items?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-05-19 at 09:18 PM.

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    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    [...]
    I thought some of the Old Cantrips were funny, but am not sure how to convert them to 5e.
    [...]
    Just so you know, this is a 3.X thread, as per the tag, so you'll want to take another look in that context.

    -------------

    That said, my thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackLamb View Post
    Unseen Servant was moved down for Conjuration, because it seemed like the least exciting first level spell of that school and Conjuration needed another cantrip.
    This is a bit of a problem, since unseen servant is strictly superior to mage hand if they're the same level. Using a cantrip from SpC or another book would probably be better than moving unseen servant down.

    All the light spells were taken out of Evocation and moved to Illusion because I think that light and darkness spells are more properly in Illusion. All the telekinesis type spells were taken out of Transmutation and moved to Evocation for similar reasons. Arcane Mark was moved to Transmutation because I don't like unschooled spells.
    Strongly seconded, all three of these. My own re-schooling does the same.

    Prestidigitation was eliminated because I'm getting rid of all of the anything spells.
    Prestidigitation is useful and iconic enough that you might consider making it a wizard and/or sorcerer class feature, particularly if you're planning to make more specialist caster and emphasize their well-roundedness in comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackLamb View Post
    Locate Object and Command Undead were moved down to first level in order to give Abjurers, Diviners and Necromancers something cool to do at first level that makes them feel they are masters at those forms of magic right from level one.

    Knock, Daze Monster were moved down to first level because I don't think that they are good enough to be second level
    Having locate object and knock at 1st level is somewhat of an issue because it overshadows rogues at 1st and 2nd level, when their comparative advantage as "the traps and locks guys" is strongest. I'd at least keep knock at 2nd (buffing it a bit if you feel it needs it, but personally I think it's fine as-is).

    Jump, Mage Armor and True Strike were moved up to second level because I think that's where those kinds of buffs belong.
    Mage armor is at 1st right now because wizards can't wear armor and are overly squishy otherwise. If you feel it's too strong at 1st, maybe a Personal-range and possibly shorter-duration lesser mage armor at 1st would fit?

    Cause Fear was moved to Enchantment because I think that emotion spells should be Enchantment.

    Knock was moved to Evocation because I think that telekinesis spells should be Evocation. Shield was moved to Evocation because I think that force spells should be Evocation.
    Once again, seconded on all counts.

    Feather Fall was eliminated because I never liked spell
    The spell is kind of mandatory to have around once you reach the levels where flight becomes more common. Power-wise it's fine at 1st or 2nd, but perhaps you could increase the level so it's more of a hard choice whether to prepare it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackLamb View Post
    When I combined Bestow Curse and Remove Curse, the combined spell fit in neither Abjuration nor Necromancy so I placed it in the garb bag school of Transmutation.
    Boo on giving Transmutation more goodies, it doesn't need them!

    Since most healing effects really should be Necromancy rather than Conjuration, I'd say remove curse fits in Necromancy just fine, and so the combined spell would too.

    Dimension Door was moved from Conjuration to Transmutation because it's not an extra-dimensional spell.
    It is, actually, since all teleportation uses the Astral Plane. Unless you've changed that in your cosmology along with replacing the Plane of Shadow, but still, having Conjuration be the school of "moving things from point A to point B" (whether that's summoning things to you, banishing things away from you, teleporting things from place to place, or whatever) has the most thematic consistency, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackLamb View Post
    Mind Fog was moved from Enchantment to Conjuration because it physically creates fog. Physically creating things is contrary to Enchantment and fog is generally Conjuration. Cloudkill was moved from Conjuration to Necromancy because poison has a strong tie Necromancy and I don't think either focus is narrow enough to cause confusion.
    You could always make them dual-school spells, Conjuration/Enchantment for mind fog and Conjuration/Necromancy for cloudkill. If you really want to avoid dual-school spells, cloudkill as Necromancy is probably fine and no one really uses mind fog enough for it to matter.

    And Shadow Walk is moved from Illusion to Conjuration because it's an extra-dimensional spell.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacklamb
    Prismatic Spray was moved from Evocation to Illusion because I think color spells belong in Illusion.
    While it's color-themed like color spray, hypnotic pattern, and such are Illusion and you moved all the basic light spells there, the actual effects of the prismatic X spells involve fire, lightning, acid, poison, and stone (distinctly Evocation effects), plus insanity (Enchantment) and plane-shifting (Conjuration), so I'd say it should at least be dual-school Evocation/Illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacklamb
    Iron Body is moved from Transmutation to Abjuration because it's a better version of Stoneskin.

    Mind Blank is moved from Abjuration to Enchantment because it's a kind of self Enchantment.
    These are somewhat contradictory. If you're moving spells from Abjuration to schools that better match their effects (which I totally support, I do the same thing), then stoneskin should be moved to Transmutation rather than iron body being moved to Abjuration.

    Abjuration is kind of a sticky problem because no spells really fit just in Abjuration the way they can in the other thematic-grab-bag schools of Conjuration, Necromancy, and Transmutation. Mind blank makes more sense as Enchantment, banishment makes more sense as Conjuration (it's basically a reverse summoning), nondetection makes more sense as Illusion, and so forth. You should probably pick one approach on Abjuration (either put more things in it or move everything to schools matching their themes) and stick with it; in my own games, I either remove Abjuration or make the majority of its spells dual-school.
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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    @Dice. Somehow I missed the 3x tag.
    Sorry.

    Darn, now I'm going to want to do more, and I can't: No more space on phone for PDFs.

    Carry on. I might jump back in sometime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.

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    Light, Darkness

    Light as a Cantrip
    Darkness as a 2nd Level Spell

    They are opposites.
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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    I'm not sold on you arbitrarily changing spell levels just to fill up school slots, but I think that Light and Darkness being Illusion is a great idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Light, Darkness

    Light as a Cantrip
    Darkness as a 2nd Level Spell

    They are opposites.
    What about Daylight?
    To me, Darkness should have been equal to this. Or would you say that Deeper Darkness was the opposite of Daylight?

    Personality, I felt that there should have been a "Shadow" Cantrip.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

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    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Daylight is stronger than Light. Deeper Darkness is stronger than Darkness.

    In OD&D, Light and Darkness are opposites. This is one of the fundamentals from the beginning.

    Therefore Daylight is the opposite of Deeper Darkness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Greetings, BlackLamb

    Since you wanted to get rid of Prestidigitation, were you going to bring back any of the Old Cantrips?

    I tend to agree that a Cantrip should not be able to do "anything", and I placed all the "Visual" effects in the Minor Illusion Cantrip, and all the “Sound” effects into Ghost Sound.
    (I also give an Intelligence Save to "resist" Illusions, if they are interacted with)

    I thought some of the Old Cantrips were funny, but am not sure how to convert them to 5e.

    Like "Hairy" being able to instantly grow hair - or a beard. But, it's concentration and only lasts an hour?
    Makes for a more believable Disguise, but is revealed by Detect Magic. Most other Spellcasters would not waste a Dispel Magic on a Cantrip, but if Hairy (or Bald) was combined with either Disguise Self or Alter Self they might.

    Since 5e Cantrips are a bit more potent, would you combine things like "Clean" and "Dirty
    Thanks Great Dragon

    Here's my takes on some old school cantrips for 3.5, not 5e, so they're still probably too weak for your purposes

    Coif
    Transmutation
    Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 swift action
    Target: Special selected areas on one creature up to the entire creature, or one object
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Fort Negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    This cantrip is used to shorten hair and/or fur up to and including shaving it clean off in the desired areas (head, face, legs, body, body parts, etc.), or will cause growth of up to 12-inches of new hair or fur or fuzz. If used to remove all hair from a selected area, it does this so well it will be 6+1d6 days before the hair will start to grow back (one individual need not roll this each time, but only once. It will be assumed for that individual whatever they rolled is typical of them. For example, a particular woman rolls 8 and thus this cantrip always removes the hair from her legs for 8 days each time it is cast on her legs. Another woman's hair may grow faster, so she should roll for herself, etc.). This cantrip will also remove peach fuzz on a peach, make a small patch of carpet bald, etc., or do similar things to hair and fur like materials one could do with time, a scissors, and a razor.
    If used to grow hair, the subject must be naturally hairy or fuzzy. One cannot have hair grow on rocks, for example.

    Fire Finger
    Evocation
    Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 swift action
    Duration: 1 round
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    This cantrip causes a 6-inch jet of flame to spring from the caster's finger causing easily combustible objects to ignite. It lasts 6 seconds. The aura of living creatures (of more than animal intelligence or more than 1 Hit Point) can ward off its effects (no damage). The cantrip is handy for starting campfires and the like, or even sterilizing daggers and needles.

    Distract
    Enchantment
    Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 swift action
    Target: One creature
    Duration: One round
    Saving Throw: Will Negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    This cantrip will cause creatures to look to the left or the right of the caster (up to 10 feet away) allowing the caster to do something and have it go unnoticed.

    Summon Pest
    Conjuration
    Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 swift action
    Target: One creature
    Duration: One hour / level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    This cantrip will summon a Fine Size creature with neither an Intelligent score or maximum hit points greater than 1, such as a bee or a mouse or a spider. Alternatively, this cantrip can summon a 6 cubic inch cloud of gnats or similar insects. There is a 5% chance that the pest or cloud of pests is venomous or disease ridden.
    You can direct the pests to harass someone within 10’ of you, or feed them to a pet, or use them as material components. Have fun with it.

    Exterminate
    Necromancy
    Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 swift action
    Target: 1 small creature (1 Hit Point or less and no creature with more than animal intelligence) OR, a flat area of 20 square feet or less may be erected.
    Duration: One hour / level
    Saving Throw: No
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    The mage may actually kill a Fine creature of animal intelligence or less (no save) that normally has 1 Hit Point or less. (One could NOT kill a fighter currently at 1 Hit Point, for example). Thus, a fly, mouse, small rat, beetle, bat, etc. may be killed if it is within range. The mage must be able to see it OR - must be within one foot of it and be able to discern it in some manner. 'I can hear it behind this wall right here.' If an invisible wall of 20 square feet or less is erected (such as in a door way, open window, or tent opening), creatures effected by this spell will be killed as they come in contact with the wall. This spell will have no effect on summoned or enchanted creatures (such as a swarm).

    *****
    I feel that unless True Strike is a Bonus Action to cast and lasts a minute (concentration) it's not worth a 2nd level slot.
    Can do

    *****
    No Feather Fall? Gods help the party that falls any real distance….
    It's a fine first level spell when you can cast third level spells. I can make it a cantrip, move it to Abjuration and drop Resistance

    *****
    I always felt that the Rebuke spells were for Clerics. With the exception of Hellish Rebuke.
    I can drop 'em

    Thanks for the feedback and let me know what you think of the cantrips.

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Just so you know, this is a 3.X thread, as per the tag, so you'll want to take another look in that context.

    -------------

    That said, my thoughts:



    This is a bit of a problem, since unseen servant is strictly superior to mage hand if they're the same level. Using a cantrip from SpC or another book would probably be better than moving unseen servant down.
    How do my new cantrips work?

    Having locate object and knock at 1st level is somewhat of an issue because it overshadows rogues at 1st and 2nd level, when their comparative advantage as "the traps and locks guys" is strongest. I'd at least keep knock at 2nd (buffing it a bit if you feel it needs it, but personally I think it's fine as-is).
    In 30 years I've never seen Knock in a game. If it's too powerful for first and too lame for second it might as well not exist. I'd have to move Arcane Lock to third as there's no longer a special counter to it.

    Boo on giving Transmutation more goodies, it doesn't need them!

    Since most healing effects really should be Necromancy rather than Conjuration, I'd say remove curse fits in Necromancy just fine, and so the combined spell would too.
    Are there any arcane spells that could placed into Necromancy? Because without that, I don't see a strong enough case for moving it here.

    It is, actually, since all teleportation uses the Astral Plane. Unless you've changed that in your cosmology along with replacing the Plane of Shadow, but still, having Conjuration be the school of "moving things from point A to point B" (whether that's summoning things to you, banishing things away from you, teleporting things from place to place, or whatever) has the most thematic consistency, I think.
    Ehhh, I think the Astral Plane is as necessary for D&D teleportation as the Astral Plane is necessary for Star Trek transporters.

    There's the meta-issue of Conjuration and Transmutation being the two strongest schools. Moving the extra-dimensional spells to Conjuration without taking taking anything else just makes it stronger.

    Do you have any suggestions for that?

    While it's color-themed like color spray, hypnotic pattern, and such are Illusion and you moved all the basic light spells there, the actual effects of the prismatic X spells involve fire, lightning, acid, poison, and stone (distinctly Evocation effects), plus insanity (Enchantment) and plane-shifting (Conjuration), so I'd say it should at least be dual-school Evocation/Illusion.
    Not a fan of dual schools and without the Shadow spells high level Illusion just doesn't have enough to do.

    These are somewhat contradictory. If you're moving spells from Abjuration to schools that better match their effects (which I totally support, I do the same thing), then stoneskin should be moved to Transmutation rather than iron body being moved to Abjuration.

    Abjuration is kind of a sticky problem because no spells really fit just in Abjuration the way they can in the other thematic-grab-bag schools of Conjuration, Necromancy, and Transmutation. Mind blank makes more sense as Enchantment, banishment makes more sense as Conjuration (it's basically a reverse summoning), nondetection makes more sense as Illusion, and so forth. You should probably pick one approach on Abjuration (either put more things in it or move everything to schools matching their themes) and stick with it; in my own games, I either remove Abjuration or make the majority of its spells dual-school.
    Fair enough. I'll move Mind Blank back to Abjuration. I'll move the Wall spells to Abjuration as well.

    Thanks for the feedback

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Daylight is stronger than Light. Deeper Darkness is stronger than Darkness.

    In OD&D, Light and Darkness are opposites. This is one of the fundamentals from the beginning.

    Therefore Daylight is the opposite of Deeper Darkness.
    This is fair.

    Moving Darkness / Light to first level and combining them makes sense.

    A problem is that means Illusion no longer has any purely Dark spells. I can add Armor of Darkness
    and Darkbolt

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Coif. Looks good.

    Fire Finger (Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, and Spark)
    for 3x I would make all the "damage" Cantrips do 1d3 damage with a successful ranged touch attack. I would change the casting time to 1 action, and the duration to Instantaneous.

    The extra things, like setting unattended flammables on fire, and lighting campfires is fine.

    Distract. Good.

    Summon Pest Ok.

    Exterminate Ok.
    *****
    True Strike for 3x, since it is a +20 to hit, having it last 1d4 rounds should be enough, even for 2nd level. Even "Lasts one round per level" is rather strong at +20.
    ******
    Feather Fall IiRC 3x has this affecting an area, with a weight limit (100# /Lv) based on caster level. This means that more than one person can be affected each casting.
    I would change the casting time to an Immediate Action.

    I'd just leave it as a 1st level spell, although putting it in Abjuration (prevents getting hurt from falling) instead of Alteration (changes the "weight" of each creature) is quite alright.

    Changing it to a Cantrip would most likely Limit it to one target (within 25' +5'/Lv) as maybe in Immediate Action.
    *******
    Knock and Arcane Lock can still counter each other.
    If the Player decided to not take either one, that's their problem when they need it.
    Me, I'm a little weird, in that if I'm playing a Wizard, Knock (if not also Arcane Lock) is always going to be in my spellbook, if not memorized. (Even a lot of my Sorcerers will take Knock, so long as they have Attack and Defense covered)
    Knock comes in most handy at locked doors/chests when there isn't a Rogue around.

    Making Knock and Arcane Lock equal level should be ok.

    From what I understand, Knock is the only easy way to get past Arcane Lock.
    The Open Lock skill DC for a Rogue to "unlock" it is at least 25.
    *****
    I have always seen Wall spells as Conjuration, since they "instantly" make something, even if it is temporarily.

    Well, except Illusonary Wall, of course.
    *****
    Don't forget about Sunlight - I can't remember if there's another Darkness spell that can counter this.
    Supreme Darkness?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-05-25 at 11:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackLamb View Post
    Can do
    Note that the true strike Great Dragon was talking about is the 5e version, which just gives advantage and so would be closer to a +2 to +5 bonus in 3e, not the +20 it actually gives. Giving 3e true strike a swift-action casting time makes it far too powerful in combination with maneuvers, Power Attack, etc., and a 1-minute duration--or even the 1d4 rounds suggested in his second post--makes it far too good an ambush spell. Decreasing the casting time and/or increasing the duration should increase the spell level, at least to 2nd and possibly 3rd (contrast wraithstrike, which is already strong for its level).

    Alternately or in addition to that, you could make a lesser true strike of sorts that changes the casting time and/or duration but lowers the bonus. A swift action for +5 wouldn't be unreasonable, for instance; at low levels it makes your +0 BAB 10 Str wizard attack like a +1 BAB +4 Str fighter for one attack, at high levels it's good for gishes to bump up an iterative attack by one step from e.g. -0/-5/-10/-15 to -0/-5/-5/-15.

    I can drop 'em
    Again, he's talking about similarly-named 5e spells. The 3e spells are fine as-is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackLamb View Post
    How do my new cantrips work?
    They look good.

    In 30 years I've never seen Knock in a game. If it's too powerful for first and too lame for second it might as well not exist. I'd have to move Arcane Lock to third as there's no longer a special counter to it.
    It's not too lame for 2nd at all; it might not see play in your groups, but any group that does appreciable amounts of dungeon-crawling, heists, and other adventures where you run into very good locks, it's invaluable. It's one of several spells that's fairly niche but incredibly good in its niche, so it should really be leveled based on how useful it is when it's needed, not dropped a few levels to where the pendulum swings to it being too strong.

    Are there any arcane spells that could placed into Necromancy? Because without that, I don't see a strong enough case for moving it here.
    Other core Abjuration spells, you mean? Break enchantment is another curse-themed one, and sequester is basically suspended animation, but most of the Abjuration-but-should-be-Necromancy spells are non-core or divine so I suppose if you're limiting the scope for now it's not a huge deal.

    Ehhh, I think the Astral Plane is as necessary for D&D teleportation as the Astral Plane is necessary for Star Trek transporters.
    If Scotty could cast dimensional anchor, it certainly would be.

    Anti-teleportation defenses in D&D are anti-planar-travel defenses that happen to cover teleportation because it uses the Astral Plane (though there are a few spells like anticipate teleportation that specifically target teleportation and not planar travel). Making teleportation not use the Astral Plane has a bunch of ramifications (magic circle against X doesn't prevent teleporting out of it anymore without a houserule, you need to come up with an explanation for how exactly non-line-of-effect teleportation works, calling working differently from teleportation despite both of them instantly moving creatures from point A to point B makes little sense, etc.), so keeping it as-is is for the best.

    There's the meta-issue of Conjuration and Transmutation being the two strongest schools. Moving the extra-dimensional spells to Conjuration without taking taking anything else just makes it stronger.

    Do you have any suggestions for that?
    Indeed.

    1) Conjuration (Creation) shouldn't exist; it's just Evocation by another name, and the PHB description of it is literally just a rephrasing of the Evocation description. The vast majority of those should go to Evocation, though there are a few outliers (for instance, phase door should still be Conjuration and shouldn't have been subschooled Creation in the first place, phantom steed is more of an Illusion (Shadow) spell--I mean, c'mon, it's got "quasi-real" in the first line of its description--and sepia snake sigil is more of an Abjuration even though it's a [Force] effect which would normally be Evocation).

    Moving those spells takes ~300 spells out of Conjuration (or ~60 if you're just looking at the PHB), gives Evocation all the [Acid] and [Force] spells Conjuration was hogging and a bunch of nice utility spells to make it more than just "the blasting school," and tightens up Conjuration thematically to "the planar school" instead of a random grab bag, so that's a win all around.

    2) Looking at core Transmutations, they fall into several distinct categories: physical creature alterations like alter self/bull's strength/enlarge person, mental creature alterations like darkvision/fox's cunning/Mordenkainen's lucubration, object alterations like erase/passwall/transmute rock to mud, "kinetic" spells like feather fall/jump/telekinesis, energy spells like flame arrow and pyrotechnics, and planar spells like blink/ethereal jaunt/rope trick.

    The planar spells obviously go in Conjuration and the energy and kinetic spells in Evocation, and the mental alterations should really go in Enchantment, once again giving a currently-thematically-narrow school some much needed utility and narrowing Transmutation's theme. Moving those spells cuts Transmutation down from 76 core spells to 56, and really makes it a school of transmuting things instead of generically "changing" things.

    Not a fan of dual schools and without the Shadow spells high level Illusion just doesn't have enough to do.
    That leaves you with the problem that no non-(Shadow) Illusion spell ever has physical effects on anything, just mental effects, except for the prismatic spells that you've now moved there. If you don't want to dual-school them, you should probably at least give prismatic spells the (Shadow) subschool; that would justify the physical effects, and shadows are as much light as darkness, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon
    Feather Fall IiRC 3x has this affecting an area, with a weight limit (100# /Lv) based on caster level. This means that more than one person can be affected each casting.
    It does affect multiple creatures, though it's size-based (1 Medium creature/CL), not weight-based. So at 1st level the wizard can feather fall himself, and he can hit the whole party by 5th or so.

    I would change the casting time to an Immediate Action.
    It already is, actually; when swift and immediate actions were introduced, they went back and updated any "free action once per round" and "free action outside of your turn" abilities accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Note that the true strike Great Dragon was talking about is the 5e version, which just gives advantage and so would be closer to a +2 to +5 bonus in 3e, not the +20 it actually gives.
    Correct. As noted, I had failed to notice the 3x tag, so was thinking 5e.

    I've been out of 3x for at least 10 years, lost my books, and can't read PDFs and post at the same time on my phone, and I find the online 3x SRD far too limited for most of these debates.

    Please excuse any lapses in memory about 3x facts.

    Giving 3e true strike a swift-action casting time makes it far too powerful in combination with maneuvers, Power Attack, etc.,
    The only real problem that I see with being a Swift Action, might be a Gish. But Multiclassing (even most PrCs) means that the Player had to wait longer to get that ability.

    Also, keeping True Strike as "self only" means that spells like Bless, etc are still good.

    and a 1-minute duration--or even the 1d4 rounds suggested in his second post-
    Now, for 3e, this is a valid concern.

    Multiple rounds of +20 to hit is just O.P.

    Unless you make that Supreme True Strike and at least 8th level.

    -makes it far too good an ambush spell.
    PCs Ambushing foes is always a problem for DMs.

    I mean, (in 3x) having at least one full round before combat, means that the Caster/Gish can cast the original True Strike on themselves and still not really lose more than the "Surprise Round", and then drop that +20 nuke on their next turn.

    Decreasing the casting time and/or increasing the duration should increase the spell level, at least to 2nd and possibly 3rd (contrast wraithstrike, which is already strong for its level).
    I had to googlefu that spell.
    Someone figuring out how to combine True Strike with Wraithstrike would indeed be OP for low level.

    You'd have to put in "cannot be combined with other spells" to kill that.

    But, then - I don't mind if they burned spells on doing that combo. Magic Items with one of those spells should be very rare and extremely hard to get. Cannot be bought.

    Alternately or in addition to that, you could make a lesser true strike of sorts that changes the casting time and/or duration but lowers the bonus. A swift action for +5 wouldn't be unreasonable, for instance; at low levels it makes your +0 BAB 10 Str wizard attack like a +1 BAB +4 Str fighter for one attack, at high levels it's good for gishes to bump up an iterative attack by one step from e.g. -0/-5/-10/-15 to -0/-5/-5/-15.
    I always did feel that +20 to hit was too powerful for a 1st level spell. Having different levels giving better bonuses was something I wanted to try.
    As Swift Actions:
    (1st) Lesser +5.
    (4th) Major +10
    (6th) Greater +15
    (8th) Supreme +20.

    (Knock) It's not too lame for 2nd at all; it might not see play in your groups, but any group that does appreciable amounts of dungeon-crawling, heists, and other adventures where you run into very good locks, it's invaluable. It's one of several spells that's fairly niche but incredibly good in its niche, so it should really be leveled based on how useful it is when it's needed, not dropped a few levels to where the pendulum swings to it being too strong.
    Right.

    Keep in mind the limits that Knock has, as well.
    Only one thing can be affected on the target per casting. One lock, or One Bar, or One Stuck Door.
    **********
    I'm not really able to go too deep into which spells would fit into what School ( I love mages, and kinda wish I could)

    A few comments:
    1) Conjuration (Creation) shouldn't exist; it's just Evocation by another name, and the PHB description of it is literally just a rephrasing of the Evocation description.
    I always felt that "creation" was meant for Clerics, especially ones with that Domain.

    The vast majority of those should go to Evocation
    While I can understand Evocation being the "make energy" school, making things last more than a split second is Conjuration to me.

    though there are a few outliers (for instance, phase door should still be Conjuration and shouldn't have been subschooled Creation in the first place,
    Agree, on both.

    phantom steed is more of an Illusion (Shadow) spell--I mean, c'mon, it's got "quasi-real" in the first line of its description
    I can deal with this.

    --and sepia snake sigil is more of an Abjuration even though it's a [Force] effect which would normally be Evocation).
    Now, here I disagree.
    It's not preventing something (other than movement) from happening, or Protecting anyone from anything.

    It brings in an energy field that physically restrains the target, and lasts more than a few seconds. Which says (to me) Conjuration.

    Moving those spells takes ~300 spells out of Conjuration (or ~60 if you're just looking at the PHB), gives Evocation all the [Acid] and [Force] spells Conjuration was hogging and a bunch of nice utility spells to make it more than just "the blasting school," and tightens up Conjuration thematically to "the planar school" instead of a random grab bag, so that's a win all around.
    Acid as Evocation is strange to me, but then you do have a point. I mean Conjuration brings things from elsewhere…. So, where exactly did the Acid come from? It's not like there's an Elemental Plane of Acid…..

    2) Looking at core Transmutations, they fall into several distinct categories: physical creature alterations like alter self/bull's strength/enlarge person, mental creature alterations like darkvision/fox's cunning/Mordenkainen's lucubration, object alterations like erase/passwall/transmute rock to mud, "kinetic" spells like feather fall/jump/telekinesis, energy spells like flame arrow and pyrotechnics, and planar spells like blink/ethereal jaunt/rope trick.

    The planar spells obviously go in Conjuration and the energy and kinetic spells in Evocation, and the mental alterations should really go in Enchantment, once again giving a currently-thematically-narrow school some much needed utility and narrowing Transmutation's theme. Moving those spells cuts Transmutation down from 76 core spells to 56, and really makes it a school of transmuting things instead of generically "changing" things.

    That leaves you with the problem that no non-(Shadow) Illusion spell ever has physical effects on anything, just mental effects, except for the prismatic spells that you've now moved there. If you don't want to dual-school them, you should probably at least give prismatic spells the (Shadow) subschool; that would justify the physical effects, and shadows are as much light as darkness, after all.
    All good.

    (Feather Fall)
    It does affect multiple creatures, though it's size-based (1 Medium creature/CL), not weight-based. So at 1st level the wizard can feather fall himself, and he can hit the whole party by 5th or so.
    Thanks.

    It already is, actually; when swift and immediate actions were introduced, they went back and updated any "free action once per round" and "free action outside of your turn" abilities accordingly.
    Let me see, Miniatures Handbook introduced these, right? Never did get all of that integrated into my 3x games….
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-05-26 at 05:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Please excuse any lapses in memory about 3x facts.
    No problem, was just pointing it out for BlackLamb since I wasn't sure if he'd noticed the previous note.

    The only real problem that I see with being a Swift Action, might be a Gish. But Multiclassing (even most PrCs) means that the Player had to wait longer to get that ability.
    It's definitely stronger for a gish, but even for a plain ol' wizard being a swift action makes it overly powerful, and of course wands of true strike and Fighter X/Wizard 1 and so forth should be considered as well.

    Looking at it in terms of...let's call it "impact per round," normally casting true strike takes a turn and then whatever you use it with takes a turn, so you're trading the effectiveness of casting two offensive spells for increased reliability of one offensive spell. For instance, true strike + full Power Attack with a greatsword by a Fighter 10/Wizard 1 with 18 Str lets him attack at +24 for 2d6+24 damage (average 31); pretty nifty, huh? But if he'd just full attacked two times in a row at +10/+5, he could have dealt up to 8d6+16 damage (average 44), and he avoids issues with natural 1s or immediate action from his target or whatever since it's not just one attack.

    Make true strike a swift action, however, and whatever you're using with it happens in just one turn, so you're not spending a turn buffing up and you can either do other things on that turn or just use your true strike combo twice.

    PCs Ambushing foes is always a problem for DMs.

    I mean, (in 3x) having at least one full round before combat, means that the Caster/Gish can cast the original True Strike on themselves and still not really lose more than the "Surprise Round", and then drop that +20 nuke on their next turn.
    The issue there is that you have to time the spell perfectly; if you can't reach/see your preferred target in the first round, or if they detect you and you don't get a surprise round, or whatever, the true strike is wasted. Giving the wizard a full minute in which to set up the combo makes it much easier to pull it off both in terms of timing and in terms of getting to where it will do the most good.

    Keep in mind the limits that Knock has, as well.
    Only one thing can be affected on the target per casting. One lock, or One Bar, or One Stuck Door.
    Actually, while it can only affect one door/box/chest/etc., it can undo "as many as two means of preventing egress," so it'll get a locked+barred door, an obvious locked+secret locked chest, or the like.

    While I can understand Evocation being the "make energy" school, making things last more than a split second is Conjuration to me.
    Evocation isn't the "make energy" school, it's the "draw upon the elements and energies of the Inner Planes" school, so it includes spells that affect air (like gust of wind), ice (wall of ice), water (geyser), earth (stone sphere), sand (storm mote), and more--and every one of those spells has a duration longer than Instantaneous.

    Also note that "creating things" is literally the PHB description of Evocation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Overview, Evocation
    Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing.
    Now, here I disagree.
    It's not preventing something (other than movement) from happening, or Protecting anyone from anything.

    It brings in an energy field that physically restrains the target, and lasts more than a few seconds. Which says (to me) Conjuration.
    First of all, the whole "bringing things in = Conjuration" argument is bogus, since basically anything can be phrased as "bringing/summoning" (Conjuration) or "changing/transforming" (Transmutation) something.

    Secondly, the description of Abjuration is as follows:
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Overview, Abjuration
    Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence.
    Sepia snake sigil creates a barrier (the force sphere), negates physical abilities (by putting the target in stasis), and harms a trespasser (the target), and almost every other spell that creates a rune/glyph/symbol/etc. that does something when it's triggered is Abjuration as well (explosive runes, ghoul glyph, sign of sealing, symbol of spell loss, glyph of warding...) because they're intended as similar contingent traps. The various symbol spells are the only exception, and they're in different schools based on their effects (death is Necromancy, pain is Enchantment, etc.), which is perfectly reasonable given that the 3e PHB didn't use dual-school spells yet.

    Finally, the created globe is a force effect, and every other [Force] spell in the game either is Abjuration or Evocation already, or should be under this re-schooling effort.

    Acid as Evocation is strange to me, but then you do have a point. I mean Conjuration brings things from elsewhere…. So, where exactly did the Acid come from? It's not like there's an Elemental Plane of Acid…..
    Technically, acid would come from the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze, but who's counting?

    Let me see, Miniatures Handbook introduced these, right? Never did get all of that integrated into my 3x games….
    That was the first book, but every book after it that introduced anything using swift or immediate actions reprinted the same "swift and immediate actions" sidebar, so if you have more than a couple 3.5 books you probably have one with that section in it.
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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    No problem, was just pointing it out for BlackLamb since I wasn't sure if he'd noticed the previous note.
    Thanks.

    Technically, acid would come from the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze, but who's counting?
    LoL!! Ok.

    But that just makes me wonder what the Odds are that the correct Elements from Earth mix with Water to make Acid on that Plane.

    Then the Odds of that Acid being located by the Caster.

    Then the Odds of the spell actually conjuring said Acid in time to hit the target.

    Like roll 3d% ?
    Base 10% Success for each?
    ******
    Seriously, though.
    I'd forgotten that description for Evocation.

    But, if this system changes the way Schools work, and Conjuration is now the "dimensional" spells: shouldn't a lot of the Evocation fall into that?

    Or, are you intending for Conjuration to be just "Summoning" type spells?
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    I just hope that I can remember to actually try and use some of this stuff In Game.

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    But that just makes me wonder what the Odds are that the correct Elements from Earth mix with Water to make Acid on that Plane.

    Then the Odds of that Acid being located by the Caster.

    Then the Odds of the spell actually conjuring said Acid in time to hit the target.

    Like roll 3d% ?
    Base 10% Success for each?
    Obviously every [Acid] spell has a different effect because each reaches into a different set of coordinates on the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze and evokes that particular kind of acid to achieve its effects.

    But, if this system changes the way Schools work, and Conjuration is now the "dimensional" spells: shouldn't a lot of the Evocation fall into that?

    Or, are you intending for Conjuration to be just "Summoning" type spells?
    Conjuration is supposed to be "just summoning," as far back as AD&D, where everything 3e lists as Conjuration (Creation) was properly Evocation and people were complaining that teleportation being Alteration when the flavor was very obviously Conjuration for years before 3e made that change.

    Just pulling things from other planes doesn't make a spell a "dimensional" or "planar" spell, since all D&D magic works by drawing on other planes. Conjuration is specifically about working with the planes themselves (plane shifting, extradimensional spaces) or moving distinct creatures or objects between and through them (teleportation, summoning), as opposed to Evocation (and lllusion and Necromancy, really) drawing upon extraplanar elements and energies and shaping them at the target site.
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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Huh.

    Yeah, I can see Necromancy drawing on The Negative Energy Plane for what it does.

    I always thought that Illusion and Charm spells didn't really need to use planar energies to work.
    (To me, Enchantment was what made objects Magical)
    ****
    I suppose that Illusion could "tap" the (Demi)Plane of Shadow (Shadowfell for 5e).

    And Charm used "faerie magic" (Feywild).
    ***

    Would you say that the use of Planar Energies is what defines "magic"?

    and makes it where "psionics" is just the "Power of the Mind"? (In that the user is the one providing the needed "energy" to manifest the power?)
    Even if there is overlapping in effects?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-05-30 at 01:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Yeah, I can see Necromancy drawing on The Negative Energy Plane for what it does.
    Both Positive and Negative Energy, actually, hence why healing and turning undead are both Necromancy effects.

    Would you say that the use of Planar Energies is what defines "magic"?
    Drawing on planar energies is necessary, but not sufficient, for magic use. Here's how the 1e DMG describes the mechanics of spellcasting:

    Quote Originally Posted by 1e DMG, p.40, SPELLCASTING
    All magic and cleric spells are similar in that the word sounds, when combined into whatever patterns are applicable, are charged with energy from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. When uttered, these sounds cause the release of this energy, which in turn triggers a set reaction. The release of the energy contained in these words is what causes the spell to be forgotten or the writing to disappear from the surface upon which it is written.

    The triggering action draws power from some plane of the multiverse. Whether the spell is an abjuration conjuration, alteration, enchantment, or whatever, there is a flow of energy - first from the spell caster, then from some plane to the area magicked or enspelled by the caster. The energy flow is not from the caster per se, it is from the utterance of the sounds, each of which is charged with energy which is loosed when the proper formula and/or ritual is completed with their utterance. This power then taps the desired plane (whether or not the spell user has any idea of what or where it is) to cause the spell to function. It is much like plugging in a heater; the electrical outlet does not hold all of the electrical energy to cause the heater to function, but the wires leading from it, ultimately to the power station, bring the electricity to the desired location.

    Many spells also require somatic motions in conjunction with words. The spoken words trigger the release of the magical energy, and the hand movements are usually required in order to control and specify the direction, target, area, etc., of the spell effects. When spell energy is released, it usually flows to the Prime Material from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. To replace it, something must flow back in reverse. The dissolution and destruction of material components provides the energy that balances out this flow, through the principle of similarity. Sometimes this destruction is very slow, as is the case with druids‘ mistletoe. Those spells without apparent material components are actually utilizing the air exhaled by the magic-user in the utterance of the spell.

    Release of word/sound-stored energy is not particularly debilitating to the spell caster, as he or she has gathered this energy over a course of time prior to the loosing of the power. It comes from outside the spell caster, not from his or her own vital essence. The power to activate even a first level spell would leave a spell caster weak and shaking if it were drawn from his or her personal energy, and a third level spell would most certainly totally drain the caster’s body of life!

    Because spells tap power from other planes, any improper casting is likely to cause the spell not to function (the heater is turned on, but you haven’t plugged it in, or you’ve plugged it in but not turned it on) or to malfunction (you held onto the prongs of the plug when you tapped the current, or you accidently dropped the heater as you were plugging it in, or perhaps you plugged in some other appliance or device by mistake). Such happenings are covered in the various chances for spell malfunction.
    Some of the verbiage has changed (most notably "memorizing" has become "preparation" because people who hadn't read Vance and Zelazny thought spell memorization meant literally memorizing written material as opposed to creating magical constructs in your mind), but the fundamentals have remained the same throughout the editions.
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    Default Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List

    @Dice:
    Thank you very much for responding.

    I didn't DM 1e, and so had either forgetten having been told that, or just never learned it. (Because, you know, teenager)

    Also, because few other Players cared how/why magic worked, I didn't sped time memorizing this in later Editions. It was a passing interest, but didn't really stick in my memory.
    *****
    I kinda put Divine "spells" as being different from Arcane "spells". It's just Wizards that tend to classify them by "School" to better understand them. (Or pointing out simularities)
    Sure, Healing has a Necromantic "effect" but doesn't draw upon the Positive Elemental Plane (Inflict doesn't need the Negative Elemental Plane) to work, since the "power" for the spell comes from the Deity directly. (This was why Good Deities could grant Inflict - and Evil Deities could Heal). Same for Turn/Rebuke Undead.

    (IMO) This distinction was why Arcane "Healing" and "Inflict" spells were rare (IiRC Positive/Negative Energy Ray) and (sometimes) unpredictable.

    ******
    I look forward to seeing more on the debate, here. Might pop in with a Question or a Comment from time to time.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-05-31 at 03:30 PM.

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