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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    There will always be DMs who are deathly afraid of PCs getting away with something. Anything more than a PC doing "I attack for 1d8 + 3 damage" threatens their sense of power. They refuse to accept PCs are supposed to be powerful.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    There will always be DMs who are deathly afraid of PCs getting away with something. Anything more than a PC doing "I attack for 1d8 + 3 damage" threatens their sense of power. They refuse to accept PCs are supposed to be powerful.
    Or they hear a big number come from the rogue and freak out. Not realizing that their damage is at best average compared to people getting more attacks or using their own class abilities.

    I can not tell you how many times when I was playing a rogue that the DM would freak out when I would do like 25 or 30 damage for my sneak attack but just ignore the figher/barbarian/monk who was doing just as much if not more spaced out over 3 or 4 attacks.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    There will always be DMs who are deathly afraid of PCs getting away with something. Anything more than a PC doing "I attack for 1d8 + 3 damage" threatens their sense of power. They refuse to accept PCs are supposed to be powerful.
    Party has a barbarian that does crazy damage with a homebrew axe and a wizard cleric with fire spells everywhere. He even gave him a wand of fireballs to use on top of everything else.

    I think he didn't like/understand rogues and/or doesn't know how to scale his encounters to the group.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Or they hear a big number come from the rogue and freak out. Not realizing that their damage is at best average compared to people getting more attacks or using their own class abilities.

    I can not tell you how many times when I was playing a rogue that the DM would freak out when I would do like 25 or 30 damage for my sneak attack but just ignore the figher/barbarian/monk who was doing just as much if not more spaced out over 3 or 4 attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    Party has a barbarian that does crazy damage with a homebrew axe and a wizard cleric with fire spells everywhere. He even gave him a wand of fireballs to use on top of everything else.

    I think he didn't like/understand rogues and/or doesn't know how to scale his encounters to the group.


    Average base attack of a Fighter: Roughly 10 damage per attack.

    Average base damage of a Rogue: Roughly 7 damage per attack


    Rogue Sneak Attack bonus: 1d6 every 2 levels (or 1.75 per level).

    Fighters get double attacks at level 2 for a single round, and gets a second base attack at level 5.


    Level 3 Fighter: 20 damage in turn 1, 10 damage every turn after.

    Level 3 Rogue: 12 damage per turn.

    Level 5 Fighter: 40 damage in turn 1, 20 damage every turn after.

    Level 5 Rogue: ~16 damage every turn.

    Fireball: 18 damage per creature hit (9 on a miss), in a 8x8 square that ignores cover.

    And this is assuming a 100% sneak attack chance. So I'd really to hear this DM's reasoning behind why Rogues have it so good.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-05-20 at 01:01 PM.
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    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.
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    5th Edition Homebrewery

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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    Just a quick update.

    I messaged the DM and asked if I could start a new character and he agreed.

    It was all just kind of stressing me out and making me feel anxious.

    I love the rogue I made and I'd rather save him for some other game than grow to hate him in this one.

    I'm going to roll up a PAM, GWM, Sentinel Battlemaster Fighter. I want to see if he just had a problem with the rogue mechanics or the amount of damage I was doing.

    Thank you for all your responses it was all really helpful.
    Okay, well when you are done with that, if they still don't budge and you ever want to play a 'rogue-the character concept (as opposed to the class),' there are many ways to make a lightly-armored character with a bunch of sneaky skills that does not need to utilize the rogue class (the simplest being a Dex-based fighter with Criminal or Urchin background).

    Edit:
    Also, I'm actually kinda glad that this seems to be a DM not recognizing the actual power of things, rather than a DM who just wants to shut down fun. Any DM who is handing out wands of fire to the wizards, but is afraid of a rogue's sneak attack is a textbook case of a straight-forward new-ish DM making new DM mistakes. We've all had them and most of them get better.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2019-05-20 at 02:06 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    It is doubtful that you are going to convince your DM, but maybe you can convince the other players instead. Provide them with Crawford's tweet indicating that rogues are supposed to get Sneak Attack most of the time. See if they will all discuss the issue with the DM as a group (nicely), because they want the Rogue in their group and hope he'll change his mind. If he won't then change characters, and consider changing DMs or becoming a DM yourself --- you seem to read the rules better than he does.

    Crawford's Tweet
    https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecr...56159387656193

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    It is doubtful that you are going to convince your DM, but maybe you can convince the other players instead. Provide them with Crawford's tweet indicating that rogues are supposed to get Sneak Attack most of the time. See if they will all discuss the issue with the DM as a group (nicely), because they want the Rogue in their group and hope he'll change his mind. If he won't then change characters, and consider changing DMs or becoming a DM yourself --- you seem to read the rules better than he does.

    Crawford's Tweet
    https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecr...56159387656193
    Other players have already tried talking to him about it but he's not budged. Anyway I've already decided I'm starting again.

    A lot of people have said I should try to DM, I do plan on giving it a go eventually but I just feel like I don't have enough experience with the game yet. I tend to pick up rules pretty easy but DnD is about so much more than that.

    I think if I tried to run a session now it would just be really messy and unenjoyable.

    Again thank you to everyone for all the responses. You've all been really helpful and supportive, I appreciate it. So many game communities tend to be fairly toxic and so far this has been the complete opposite.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by varunrana; 2019-05-20 at 05:41 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    So many game communities tend to be fairly toxic and so far this has been the complete opposite.

    Thank you.
    Oh, just fair warning, there's no small amount of toxicity here.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Oh, just fair warning, there's no small amount of toxicity here.
    Take 12d6 poison damage.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Take 12d6 poison damage.
    Willie should have rolled a dwarf instead of a duck. Oh well.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Willie should have rolled a dwarf instead of a duck. Oh well.
    Anyone familiar with Snarfquest want to clue M_O_G in?

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    So a quick update.

    I asked if I could make a PAM GWM Battlemaster.

    He said no to GWM which I'm fine with.

    But for a moment he tried to tell me I only have 3 superiority dice at level 7 instead of 5.

    But we settled on 5 so we'll see how it goes next session.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    So a quick update.

    I asked if I could make a PAM GWM Battlemaster.

    He said no to GWM which I'm fine with.

    But for a moment he tried to tell me I only have 3 superiority dice at level 7 instead of 5.

    But we settled on 5 so we'll see how it goes next session.
    Okay. Normally I'd say that of GWM, PAM, and Sentinel of the classic build, GWM is the least overpowering, but along with Battlemaster (and thus the Precision maneuver) I can see it. The 3 superiority dice at level 7 instead of 5 bit is just plain odd. That, of all things, is what would make you overpowered?

    I'm seriously considering just sitting down with him and saying, "I'm done guessing my way around your strange hang-ups. You tell me what I'm allowed to play without you proceeding to take away whatever makes it unique or enjoyable."

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Okay. Normally I'd say that of GWM, PAM, and Sentinel of the classic build, GWM is the least overpowering, but along with Battlemaster (and thus the Precision maneuver) I can see it. The 3 superiority dice at level 7 instead of 5 bit is just plain odd. That, of all things, is what would make you overpowered?

    I'm seriously considering just sitting down with him and saying, "I'm done guessing my way around your strange hang-ups. You tell me what I'm allowed to play without you proceeding to take away whatever makes it unique or enjoyable."
    Well I figure I'll give this one more shot with a new character. If he changes the rules on me again I think I'll just quit the group.

    At least the restriction this time isn't class breaking like his sneak attack modifications.

    I did find a group to play online with got my first session with them this Sunday hopefully. Playing a lvl 1 half orc barbarian raised amongst human nobility that thinks he's a refined gentleman duelist.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    I agree with Willie the Duck. If a DM is micromanaging their players' choices to this degree because they're concerned about 'balance' there's a problem. It's their job as DM to handle balance on their side and let the players handle their PCs within the context of the rules. When a DM gets this fussy it's usually because they've created a fixed path with fixed obstacles that they don't want (or are too lazy or inexperienced) to change and are worried the party will just walk over it. It's their job to know their party and prepare suitable challenges for them, not force the players to conform to their fixed encounters.
    Last edited by darknite; 2019-05-23 at 08:15 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Don't be afraid to call it like it is. Your DM is being a banana.
    Last edited by allthingslich; 2019-05-23 at 08:24 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Yunru's Avatar

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    To be fair, he might not have noticed that you gain additional dice as you gain levels?
    Although that doesn't make sense either as you start with 4.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by allthingslich View Post
    Don't be afraid to call it like it is. Your DM is being a banana.
    That's uncalled for. Bananas have done nothing to ruin your game.

    On topic: one of my players tried his hand at DMing. He was great at the roleplaying, but horrible at the mechanics. Knee jerk reaction to almost anything was that it was OP. I think a lot of new DMs hear about a skill and imagine perfect scenarios for them; ignore math and feel the feature can ruin the game. Ref. my signature: not my style.

    I've yellow/orange lamps flaring from what I hear
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    I did find a group to play online with got my first session with them this Sunday hopefully. Playing a lvl 1 half orc barbarian raised amongst human nobility that thinks he's a refined gentleman duelist.
    This sounds like a cool concept. Good luck with the online game!

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    I think a lot of new DMs hear about a skill and imagine perfect scenarios for them; ignore math and feel the feature can ruin the game.
    My advice to any new DM is to play the game with the rules as written. Thinking you can better "balance" the game than the designers, who do this for a living and had the benefit of thousands of hours of play-testing, is pretty arrogant.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnia View Post
    This sounds like a cool concept. Good luck with the online game!
    Yeah I hope it goes well. I think the first couple of times he rages, the aftermath is going to be fun.

    Like he's a perfect gentleman and 5 minutes later he's covered in blood and has no idea what happened.

    Long term I want him to come to terms with himself. Be who he is, embrace both sides of himself and define his own culture rather than trying to fit in with either the orcs or humans expectations of how he should behave.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    Yeah I hope it goes well. I think the first couple of times he rages, the aftermath is going to be fun.

    Like he's a perfect gentleman and 5 minutes later he's covered in blood and has no idea what happened.

    Long term I want him to come to terms with himself. Be who he is, embrace both sides of himself and define his own culture rather than trying to fit in with either the orcs or humans expectations of how he should behave.
    I had a similar character once (but was a Bugbear). He never raged, he merely "took off [his] top hat and pocketed [his] monocle."

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    Yeah I hope it goes well. I think the first couple of times he rages, the aftermath is going to be fun.

    Like he's a perfect gentleman and 5 minutes later he's covered in blood and has no idea what happened.

    Long term I want him to come to terms with himself. Be who he is, embrace both sides of himself and define his own culture rather than trying to fit in with either the orcs or humans expectations of how he should behave.
    I would consider The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (comic book version, not the movie) version of Jekyl/Hyde as some good source material for the concept.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I would consider The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (comic book version, not the movie) version of Jekyl/Hyde as some good source material for the concept.
    I was thinking it wouldn't be that he is two different people more like he's hiding from himself. I think after the first couple of times he will be aware of what he's doing but won't be able to stop himself. He'll be afraid of what he's capable of but the most terrifying thing is that he likes the way it feels.

    Then he'll come out of his rages and feel sick and horrible.

    When he learns to accept himself he'll be more in control and less desperate to fit in. He'll make a space for himself in the world instead of trying to squeeze into the shape he thinks he should be.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    Literally none of my friends want to try DnD I've been trying for years.
    Find your local comic book or gaming shop and see if Adventurers league is inthe area. If not, or its not suitable for you, then ask if you can post to start a group or see if another group has posted to play. You would be surprised how many people are playing and are looking for players/DMs - just gotta look in the right spot :D
    Rule 0: The most IMPORTANT rule of D&D. There is no more important rule than this rule. This is a game, and as such, you do everything you can to ensure everyone has fun. /TheEnd

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    I'd straight up call out his bull**** if i were you. Am not going to wait for him to say 'You can play a Sorcerer but you will have less sorcery points', or 'You can play a paladin but you will have less Lay on Hands and less Smite damage'.

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    JakOfAllTirades's Avatar

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by varunrana View Post
    So a quick update.

    I asked if I could make a PAM GWM Battlemaster.

    He said no to GWM which I'm fine with.

    But for a moment he tried to tell me I only have 3 superiority dice at level 7 instead of 5.

    But we settled on 5 so we'll see how it goes next session.
    I figured (actually, predicted) your DM would do something like this. He's going to nerf anything you try to play.

    Hope you find a better table, and soon.
    I CAN EXPLAIN IT FOR YOU, BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU.


  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by JakOfAllTirades View Post
    I figured (actually, predicted) your DM would do something like this. He's going to nerf anything you try to play.

    Hope you find a better table, and soon.
    Does the DM nerf the other players’ classes similarly?
    Last edited by Segev; 2019-05-27 at 11:27 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    As a DM there are some players who I know are trying to get away with stuff but I tend to be up front and go with RAW strictly in those cases. Also the way they do it tends to be more asking about outside options (which I am happy to use, but I'll vet them first). This story also bugs me because it sounds like the DM is picking on the new guy he doesn't know while he is willing to work with his close friends to do what they want (I've had a game that devolved into this as a player and it just felt like the DM's best friend was the main character which sucks). The lowering of battle master dice would have personally been the last straw for me as that isn't even a DM misunderstanding (the idea of an easy sneak attack just rubs some DMs the wrong way, especially those who goes "its a SNEAK attack so of course you must be hidden if the rules didn't bother to write it). At the very least I recommend asking him for every single house rule on abilities he has now so you can accurately decide what will be fun to play as clearly the PHB is not accurate to the game that is being played. But then I might just be some random person on the internet getting pissed off at a story that doesn't even directly effect me so take that for what it's worth.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: DM refusing sneak attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Does the DM nerf the other players’ classes similarly?
    According to this post the OP's DM is doing anything but nerfing the other players. He's actually powering two of them up!

    There's no way I'd stay at this table with a DM singling my character out for punishment like that when everyone else is getting the royal treatment.
    Last edited by JakOfAllTirades; 2019-05-27 at 03:05 PM.
    I CAN EXPLAIN IT FOR YOU, BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU.


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