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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Hit Dice = Max HP?

    The English and 5e ways of saying things sometimes escape me. Right now I'm wondering about the correlation between hit dice and maximum hit points. For example, when your maximum hit points are reduced, you still have the same number of hit dice. However, if you were to lose a hit die, would your max HP go down? Or would it simply have the same effect of using a hit dice? Would that mean that losing and using a hit die, and regaining and gaining a hit die are the same things?


    *languageconfused*

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    Default Re: How do you interpret the following phrases?

    Gaining or losing hit dice have nothing to do with max HPs, as far as I know.

    Max HPs is how much HP you can have. You cannot have more than your Max HPs, and if it decrease for X or Y reasons it's clearly indicated.

    Hit dice is what you spend to replenish your HPs during a short rest. Losing or gaining them means you get to spend less or more (respectively).

    Didn't check the books, though, so I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2019-05-18 at 07:22 PM.

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    Default Re: How do you interpret the following phrases?

    Hit points and hit die are different sections on your character sheet, so if i got told i lose or gain one hit die id be adding to or subtracting from how many i currently have to use during short rests, and not touch my hit points.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Then why do monsters have hit dice, if they are simply a source of healing for short rests?

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Then why do monsters have hit dice, if they are simply a source of healing for short rests?
    Because:

    1) monsters can short rest too.

    2) Hit dice can also be rolled to determine one's maximum HP, but only at character creation or when a PC gains a level.

    Some monsters have more or less HPs than the typical statblock.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Then why do monsters have hit dice, if they are simply a source of healing for short rests?
    So that you can
    a) have monsters that short rest and heal
    b) randomize the health of monsters
    c) be consistent with sacred cows

    a is really rare IMX, but b is quite common. It sets a range for monster health: [HD+CON, HD*(HD_SIZE + CON)] while also giving an average of HD*(HD_SIZE/2+1+CON). C has more weight than one might think.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    That's an interesting design choice. I've always heard hit dice being correlated with maximum hit points. For example, the modifiers to hit dice based on size from earlier editions. It makes it sound like you actually roll dice to determine a monsters hit points. This would imply that losing a hit die meant you rolled a hit dice to see how much your HP goes down. Specifying hit dice for monsters seems like less 5e than just generalizing 'monsters regain 1/2 of their maximum hit points during short rests'

    I completely agree with you guys, I just felt both sides could be argued for.

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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    That's an interesting design choice. I've always heard hit dice being correlated with maximum hit points. For example, the modifiers to hit dice based on size from earlier editions. It makes it sound like you actually roll dice to determine a monsters hit points. This would imply that losing a hit die meant you rolled a hit dice to see how much your HP goes down. Specifying hit dice for monsters seems like less 5e than just generalizing 'monsters regain 1/2 of their maximum hit points during short rests'

    I completely agree with you guys, I just felt both sides could be argued for.
    As a general rule, the only time you 'lose' a hit die is when you spend it to heal, this does not reduce your maximum hp, it's just a way to keep track of your natural healing ability.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    That's an interesting design choice. I've always heard hit dice being correlated with maximum hit points. For example, the modifiers to hit dice based on size from earlier editions. It makes it sound like you actually roll dice to determine a monsters hit points. This would imply that losing a hit die meant you rolled a hit dice to see how much your HP goes down. Specifying hit dice for monsters seems like less 5e than just generalizing 'monsters regain 1/2 of their maximum hit points during short rests'

    I completely agree with you guys, I just felt both sides could be argued for.
    There aren't any effects that reduce HD to the best of my knowledge. And things that reduce max HP are almost entirely on the monster side of the field.

    I agree that HD could be more dynamic than they are. But they're mostly there for NPCs as a call-back to previous editions. 5e is designed in large part to feel comfortable to players of previous editions (moreso than 4th, at least). 4e didn't use HD at all, and that disturbed some people. So 5e added them back in, but left them mostly vestigial for monsters.

    And spending a HD to heal doesn't reduce your HD, it just expends the healing energy it represents.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2019-05-18 at 07:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Then why do monsters have hit dice, if they are simply a source of healing for short rests?
    In addition to the comments above there is actually a minor mechanical effect now - Shepherd druids grants additional hit points to their summons based on their HD. I don't know if there are any other mechanics that key off them off the top of my head.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Hid dice has a couple of meanings.

    Originally it was the number of dice rolled to generate hitpoints. It still means this though the monster manual suggests average hitpoints. The DM can still roll though if they want some variation just like you can take the average HP for your character or roll by RAW.

    5e uses a mechanic where your hit dice is also a dice pool that can be used to heal during a short rest. This pool regenerates at half per long rest by default. There are additional optional rules that can speed up or slow down this whole process to suit the style of the game.

    I'm not sure what monsters have the power to reduce hit dice. Without reading it I would assume that it reduces the pool of healing dice. This could have a huge impact on the game as it reduces the victims ability to recover throughout the day.

    Hope this helps.

    Edit: I forgot to mention that in ancient D&D Hitdice also functioned as the monster level, determining their chance to hit certain armor classes and resist effects.
    Last edited by Sigreid; 2019-05-18 at 09:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Hit dice and max HP have a weird sort of correlation in 5e. It's better to think of them as separate but related stats, distinct from one another.

    Strictly speaking, hit dice are only used to recover HP during a short rest. Technically, they shouldn't have anything to do with max HP.

    That said, your max HP at 1st level is always the highest possible roll on that class's hit die + your CON modifier. And likewise, the number of max HP you gain with each level is equal to either a rolled hit die + your CON mod, or the average roll (rounded up) + your CON mod.

    However, that these values relate to hit dice should be treated as if it were purely coincidental. They are the same on purpose, but they never needed to be. You could have a class that, say, gains 1d8 + CON mod max HP at a level up, but uses d12s to heal during a short rest. By using the same size of dice to determine max HP growth and healing during a short rest, it roughly lets you spend all your hit dice to go from 1 HP to full.

    All this to say that max HP and hit dice should be treated as separate things. A reduction in max HP has no effect on hit dice, and likewise any gain or loss of hit dice has no effect on max HP. The only exception is when you gain a level, which explicitly increases both max HP and hit dice.

    For monsters, it does get a little different, as you can roll the hit dice to generate a max HP value for that monster, so that every monster doesn't have the same exact HP. But again, once max HP has been decided, hit dice have no relation to max HP anymore and would only be used to heal during a short rest.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    The question is why they also called rest dice Hit Dice, even though the two are separate things?
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    The question is why they also called rest dice Hit Dice, even though the two are separate things?
    Yes xD ddddddddddddd

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    The question is why they also called rest dice Hit Dice, even though the two are separate things?
    They're not. Rest dice and hit dice are identical. If you are a Barbarian 3/Sorcerer 1, you got 3d12+1d6 of hit points (with CON added), and 3d12+1d6 to spend during rests.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    They have identical values, but different functions.

    One type of dice determines the total number of your hit points.
    The other type of dice is what you use up to recover lost hit points.

    When you use a hit die to regain hit points, your total number of hit dice does not change. You don't use up your "total hit points determination dice".
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    They have identical values, but different functions.

    One type of dice determines the total number of your hit points.
    The other type of dice is what you use up to recover lost hit points.

    They're the same dice, they just have two functions. Same way that STR is part of the formulas to determine both how far you can jump and your attack modifier for most weapons.


    I see no reason why one should separate the dice you spend for resting and the dice you use to determine your hit points maximum, when they're literally the same dice value. Gaining a level of Fighter adds 1d10 to your HP maximum AND 1d10 to the dice you can spend during rests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    When you use a hit die to regain hit points, your total number of hit dice does not change. You don't use up your "total hit points determination dice".
    You don't use "hit points determination dice" outside of leveling up or rolling a new character, so even if you somehow lost them mid-level it'd have no effect. And of course your total number of hit dice does not change: it's a spendable ressource. A Wizard doesn't lose their total spell slot maximum when they cast a spell.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2019-05-19 at 04:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Rest dice and hit dice are identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    They're the same dice, they just have two functions.
    This is what's causing the confusion with the OP, though. If your max HP gets reduced, it doesn't interact with your hit dice. And while I'm not aware of any effect that influences your hit dice, such an effect wouldn't interact with your max HP. I think it's easier if the OP just thinks of them as distinct and separate from one another, while understanding that there is a relation.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    This is what's causing the confusion with the OP, though. If your max HP gets reduced, it doesn't interact with your hit dice. And while I'm not aware of any effect that influences your hit dice, such an effect wouldn't interact with your max HP. I think it's easier if the OP just thinks of them as distinct and separate from one another, while understanding that there is a relation.
    I don't see what's confusing in "they have two functions".

    If you want to make it even clearer, how about "Hit dice determines your HP maximum only during level up, otherwise they're used for short rests"?

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    The question is why they also called rest dice Hit Dice, even though the two are separate things?
    And the answer is because Hit Dice already existed since the oldest D&D edition and the devs are recycling existing terms to minimize on the creation of new ones that have to be memorized.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    If their reason for calling rest dice "hit dice" was to make things more familiar to players of older editions, they failed horribly. This was a source of confusion for me when I started 5e, precisely because I (thought I) already knew what "hit dice" were, and the notion of spending them, in previous editions, was absurd.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    If their reason for calling rest dice "hit dice" was to make things more familiar to players of older editions, they failed horribly. This was a source of confusion for me when I started 5e, precisely because I (thought I) already knew what "hit dice" were, and the notion of spending them, in previous editions, was absurd.
    Hit dice are a fusion of 4e's healing surges with earlier editions level-based hit die. As someone who started with 4e, it makes total sense. Much more so than thinking of HD as basically "levels" in some type-based class. But that's just me.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunali View Post
    As a general rule, the only time you 'lose' a hit die is when you spend it to heal, this does not reduce your maximum hp, it's just a way to keep track of your natural healing ability.
    I'm incorporating hit die being 'spent' as part of the fast travel system I'm implementing in my setting, but these are not lost. They are 'lost' in thr sense that they can't be used to heal HP that day, but will come back on a long rest just as if it had.
    In exchange, the party gets access to fast travel to preciously unlocked locations from like.. 3rd level. If not 2nd level.
    Instead of needing 5th level spells.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Hit dice are a fusion of 4e's healing surges with earlier editions level-based hit die. As someone who started with 4e, it makes total sense. Much more so than thinking of HD as basically "levels" in some type-based class. But that's just me.
    The "levels" were important in older editions because many spells and effects had an HD max that they could affect or affected creatures differently based on HD. Circle of Death murders a fixed HD amount of creatures total so it was necessary to know how many levels they had. They've since moved away from level-based effects in order to presumably allow more spells to be useful longer and against stronger targets.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    There's not a problem with the mechanic. Even though I didn't play in 4e with its healing surges, the mechanic was easy enough to pick up on. The problem was just the name.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    The English and 5e ways of saying things sometimes escape me. Right now I'm wondering about the correlation between hit dice and maximum hit points. For example, when your maximum hit points are reduced, you still have the same number of hit dice. However, if you were to lose a hit die, would your max HP go down? Or would it simply have the same effect of using a hit dice? Would that mean that losing and using a hit die, and regaining and gaining a hit die are the same things?


    *languageconfused*
    Hit dice are the thing you use to heal, the thing you gain at a level up, and that's pretty much it.

    The value of the result of a dice roll that has the number of faces equal to the hit die you gained at your level up (in short "roll the hit die", since it would be WAY more confusing when written as i just did) is the amount of hit points you gain at that level.

    Hit dice are used to determine Hps, but Hps are a separate thing from Hit Dice once that roll is over. Unless an effect tells you otherwise, "losing" hit dice doesn't do anything else in particular. See: spending hit dice. You "lose" them until your next long rest. But it has no effect on max hps, since it doesn't say it has an effect on max hps.

    The amount of hit dice you "can" have is, in general, the amount of levels you have and the amount an kind you used to roll to determine your hps (1st level and average aside). But the amount you have, just like the amount of spell slots, fluctuates during the day.

    Each effect has its own rules, so if something made you "lose hit dice", it might make you "lose hit dice" differently than another effect that also makes you "lose hit dice".

    Afaik, there's not an effect that makes you lose hit dice other than "spending" them.

    If it helps: maximum hps is derived by your levels, the kind of hit dice you gained at each level, your abilities, and any other applicable modifier.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Except a hit die is not what you roll to determine the number of HP you gain when you level up. Even if you use the optional rule of rolled HP, the die that you roll to increase your HP is never referred to as a hit die; it just happens in every case to have the same size as a hit die for that class (just like how, if you don't use rolled HP, the amount you gain just happens to be equal to the average of that die, rounded up). The only thing that 5e uses the word "hit die" for is for a mechanic that didn't exist at all in 3rd edition or earlier, and sort of existed but in a different form and by a different name in 4th, and not for the same thing that word was used for in 3rd and earlier.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Except a hit die is not what you roll to determine the number of HP you gain when you level up. Even if you use the optional rule of rolled HP, the die that you roll to increase your HP is never referred to as a hit die
    Quoting: "Each time you gain a level, you gain 1 additional Hit Die. Roll that Hit Die, add your Constitution modifier to the roll, and add the total to your hit point maximum."

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    it just happens in every case to have the same size as a hit die for that class (just like how, if you don't use rolled HP, the amount you gain just happens to be equal to the average of that die, rounded up). The only thing that 5e uses the word "hit die" for is for a mechanic that didn't exist at all in 3rd edition or earlier, and sort of existed but in a different form and by a different name in 4th, and not for the same thing that word was used for in 3rd and earlier.
    Yeah, no.

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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    I should know by now to double-check these things.
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    Default Re: Hit Dice = Max HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Hit dice are a fusion of 4e's healing surges with earlier editions level-based hit die. As someone who started with 4e, it makes total sense. Much more so than thinking of HD as basically "levels" in some type-based class. But that's just me.
    This is exactly what got me thinking about this. 7 surges of 1/4 hit points is so clean!

    In 5e, my rest dice account for roughly 60% of my max hit points at level 1, but at level 9 it's 90%. Not as clean.

    This also feels weird, in regards to how adventuring days seem planned out. I can take two threatening encounters, and I'm at 10% HP with no way to carry on, unless I have a healer. This feels like a small amount based on the **** I expect to go through on an 8+ hour dungeon crawl xD

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