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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    After reading thread after thread about theoretical optimisation and all the ridiculous overpowered nonsense that's possible at high levels, I've become quite curious about what playing with 17th- or higher-level characters at the table. So, what are the experiences you've had? What's it like to be a party that powerful?
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    I think that it's no longer a delusion if you have your own plane of existence. I think it's just legitimate grandeur.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    At that point, it depends hugely on class composition and optimization level.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Sometimes it's rocket tag, i.e. whoever goes first just blows up the opponent and it's over.

    Most often it's not much different from mid-level play. Most actual games don't have silly builds that are mediocre for most of the game and then peak at an absurd power level at the higher levels. Being higher level generally means having more/better options, higher numbers, etc. but in turn opponents have more immunities, higher stats/hp, and can be more numerous.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Sometimes it's rocket tag, i.e. whoever goes first just blows up the opponent and it's over.
    This matches my experience from high-level play in 5e. Winning was a matter of getting a surprise round where everyone remembered their roles. Our barbarian would charge casters and wreck them hard, while our ranger and rogue would finish them off with sneak attacks and high DPR, and casters would use crowd control like Maze as well as summoned monsters to prevent or hinder enemy retaliation. Most fights were cleanup by the time any opponents even took a turn. I imagine 3.5e, especially at medium- to high-op, must be like that on steroids.
    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    I think that it's no longer a delusion if you have your own plane of existence. I think it's just legitimate grandeur.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schadenfreuda View Post
    This matches my experience from high-level play in 5e. Winning was a matter of getting a surprise round where everyone remembered their roles. Our barbarian would charge casters and wreck them hard, while our ranger and rogue would finish them off with sneak attacks and high DPR, and casters would use crowd control like Maze as well as summoned monsters to prevent or hinder enemy retaliation. Most fights were cleanup by the time any opponents even took a turn. I imagine 3.5e, especially at medium- to high-op, must be like that on steroids.
    3.5 at high op and high level is more "and so the adventurer team have a cunning plan to kill all the opponents in the dungeon as well as all the hostages(killing the hostages is a good bonus: anyway you want to be sure they are not undead and the best way for that is killing them and resurrecting them) without seeing them directly" than rocket tag.
    Stuff like extreme siege tactics with carpet bombing with tons of objects(possibly including magical explosives or regular explosives if you have the right to regular explosives) at once from the air while invisible and with contingencies to flee instantly or earthquake spam or having heavy objects falling from orbit on the target(orbital bombardment is a thing in 5e but it is much harder than in 3.5).
    Or yet the thing called scry and die.
    Or if the whole thing you target is not in antimagic zones it becomes horribly complex with all the dimensional travel around and the teleporting flying spell clock battlecubes.
    or you give up thinking and swarm stuff with more solars that swarm stuff with even more solars and so on.

    I remember when we discussed about falling objects and concluded that the way the dmg was written in the language that was used at the table that falling objects had their damage capped at 20d6 and so that we had to use 500 grams spiky objects for optimal crushing.
    And getting scried and killed is a major concern too with the gm I have.
    (although at my table it is core only high optimisation)
    Last edited by noob; 2019-05-19 at 07:19 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    It does depend a lot on the game play.

    A lot of games do just let the players ''win'', so nothing much changes at high levels. In this game the DM is just making encounters for the players to win...and the players will always win. Some DMs don't try much. They just put foes in front of the PCs and let them win the fight.

    System mastery and rules mastery also plays a huge part. Not only the level of mastery the DM has, but how the rules are used.

    And while it comes up in every level of the game, the DM wearing the 'Black Hat' (that is doing things against the characters) is very big in high level games. Lots of foes, traps, ecounters and such can be very dangerious for PC....unless the DM hand waves it all away by being too 'White Hat'.

    All that said and (not) done, high level play can be amazing.

    High level characters are demi gods doing amazing things on legendary adventures. Like characters in myths.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    High level characters are demi gods
    I hate to be "that guy", but you are incorrect, because Demigod is a specific, tangible crunch that even high level players do not attain automatically.

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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Assuming you mean "high-op but still playable," the best term I have for it is "hectic." I can handle it in (relatively) small doses, but it's gotta be broken up by non-combat stuff (not strictly RP, though that's a big part of it). You may see dozens of attack rolls per turn, multiple spells used at once, or any of a number of other things. Definitely not for the faint of heart. I only really like it because I have a dirty filthy powergamer itch sometimes and getting to scratch it is nice.

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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    For me? The fighters are having fun smashing things to pieces, rangers and rogues are looking for every little modifier they have, and the spellcasters are debating with themselves on what spell slots to use while occasionally shooting a crossbow or throwing a dart. It's honestly just like lower level play with fewer limits, my groups have never cared about optimization tooooo much.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    I've only played in two games with high-level characters, and the optimization level was different, though neither were anywhere near the absurdities that are (supposedly) RAW legal but anti-RAI. Mostly the games were/are like mid level play except that since resurrection is comparatively cheap, I don't feel bad about PC deaths so long as at least one survives. The first group was more high powered than the second, and combat was often a tedious affair to plan (according to the GM), and it was rather rocket-taggy. Rounds took a long time and things tended to be decided on the first one, even if you might need another round to mop up.
    The second group plays (dare I say it?) the game as intended. Combat usually lasts a few rounds and while one-shots absolutely can occur they aren't the norm.

    Higher level options mean that some issues that were problematic at lower levels simply aren't a problem any more, such as food or a 100' cliff or having to move around the world quickly, but that means I don't put low-power obstacles in the PCs' path as anything but flavor.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Less about playing the tactical and more the strategic side of things. As stated, things like surprise are a huge deal and there are lots of options for generating surprise (or being immune to it, i.e. Foresight, Dire Tortoise Wild Shape/Shapechange and so on). On the other hand, studying your opponents preferably before fighting and building a strategy for how to get what you want (usually some item, stopping some ritual, saving the universe or whatever) is key. If you've got an access to the module, Bastion of Broken Souls is an excellent high level premade adventure (it's a part of the line of adventures from 1 to 20 starting from the Sunless Citadel) at least with how it includes the various magical abilities you've got at your disposal (assuming the party actually has 9s casters) and how the adventure is structured. The enemies are a bit weak for what all-day buffing does on this level but that's easily remedied.

    One thing though, combat turns tend to last a long time unless the players (and particularly the DM! It took ours a long time to get the point where high level games became somewhat fluid; this is of course true from the teens) are extremely well-informed of the various key abilities and what they're doing. Also, the most efficient means of attack is generally trying to rip your enemies' magical buffs first and attacking otherwise later. That does require keeping a list of all the relevant information of all the buffs (Caster Level/Dispel DC, school of magic, aura strength, your stats without it) so that the game doesn't grind to a halt the first time targeted Greater Dispel Magic is cast (of course, Disjunction has less of a problem in that sense since it's all gone; but magic items are another matter and you need to keep close tabs on those).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2019-05-20 at 02:20 AM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Less about playing the tactical and more the strategic side of things. As stated, things like surprise are a huge deal and there are lots of options for generating surprise (or being immune to it, i.e. Foresight, Dire Tortoise Wild Shape/Shapechange and so on). On the other hand, studying your opponents preferably before fighting and building a strategy for how to get what you want (usually some item, stopping some ritual, saving the universe or whatever) is key. If you've got an access to the module, Bastion of Broken Souls is an excellent high level premade adventure (it's a part of the line of adventures from 1 to 20 starting from the Sunless Citadel) at least with how it includes the various magical abilities you've got at your disposal (assuming the party actually has 9s casters) and how the adventure is structured. The enemies are a bit weak for what all-day buffing does on this level but that's easily remedied.

    One thing though, combat turns tend to last a long time unless the players (and particularly the DM! It took ours a long time to get the point where high level games became somewhat fluid; this is of course true from the teens) are extremely well-informed of the various key abilities and what they're doing. Also, the most efficient means of attack is generally trying to rip your enemies' magical buffs first and attacking otherwise later. That does require keeping a list of all the relevant information of all the buffs (Caster Level/Dispel DC, school of magic, aura strength, your stats without it) so that the game doesn't grind to a halt the first time targeted Greater Dispel Magic is cast (of course, Disjunction has less of a problem in that sense since it's all gone; but magic items are another matter and you need to keep close tabs on those).
    Honestly once you have disjunction you should probably not use other dispelling spells because they are way too easy to counter and even if not countered if your opponent have part of its immortality buffstack in items you can be still unable to harm the opponent if somehow you can dispell it(which you can not due to rings of counterspell because (greater) dispell is targeted and so utterly trivial to stop)

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly once you have disjunction you should probably not use other dispelling spells because they are way too easy to counter and even if not countered if your opponent have part of its immortality buffstack in items you can be still unable to harm the opponent if somehow you can dispell it(which you can not due to rings of counterspell because (greater) dispell is targeted and so utterly trivial to stop)
    True, Disjunction makes GDM more or less obsolete for party use (though not breaking items is convenient). However, there are many enemies you face on these levels that have GDM at will but no Disjunction. Particularly when facing numerous outsiders, they often have GDM and they can afford to spam it (particularly if there's a lot of them). Also, Chain Spell'd GDM is pretty reliable for taking out magic items, more so than Disjunction since there's no save to stop it. It does worse against buff stacks though, but disabling all magic items is a good start before targeting the enemy directly and thus invoking any related contingencies and item protections (Spellblade & al.).
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    ...though not breaking items is convenient...
    It's an expensive solution, but casting Disjunction within a Time Stop removes this drawback.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    If your party is reasonably competent it comes down to immunities, information, and intiative.

    The party should never venture anywhere or into anything without near perfect information, and then reach the destination near instantly. They should know what they will face, what tactics the foes use, and what those enemies are prepared for. Spells like find the path, greater teleport, and the various divinations elemental weirds give you access too will cover nearly all of this. If the enemies do not have defenses against this, they pretty much auto lose.

    Being immune to as much as possible, freedom of movement, mind blank, and protection from death effects/negative energy/ability damage and drain. You negate all the non hp damage threats, which are infinitely more scary than a 20d6 evocation spell. You pump elemental resistance vs. the favored elemental damage, or get immunity, so its very difficult to be hurt or taken out of a fight. If your enemies are stopped by any of that, they cannot meaningfully interact with you, and they lose. If they do not do mirror levels of prep, they lose.

    And rocket tag is real. If you go first through absurd initiative, dire tortise shape, foresight or the like, you should win, as you strip any protections your enemies have, or you target their weakness that you discovered earlier and they are shut down before they can act. If your enemies cannot do the like, they lose.

    True res is cheap so do not be afraid to have party members die. Its less than 20k iirc to bring someone back and that is chump change. Bad guys can do that too and be better prepared next time.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    True, Disjunction makes GDM more or less obsolete for party use (though not breaking items is convenient). However, there are many enemies you face on these levels that have GDM at will but no Disjunction. Particularly when facing numerous outsiders, they often have GDM and they can afford to spam it (particularly if there's a lot of them). Also, Chain Spell'd GDM is pretty reliable for taking out magic items, more so than Disjunction since there's no save to stop it. It does worse against buff stacks though, but disabling all magic items is a good start before targeting the enemy directly and thus invoking any related contingencies and item protections (Spellblade & al.).
    Greater dispell magic against items is less reliable if your opponent use cl 100 items(there is ways to make an item be cl 100 for 1250gp extra cost by making one of the smith able to make cl 100 items add a cl100 level 0 spell as a scroll like activation effect)

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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    In actual Play I only remember 2 Groups with which we went above Level 15 for any amount of time.

    The first, back in the day, was "Played as intended", ergo you didnt see much difference to med Level play except for higher numbers, and was pretty bland (next big Dragon? OK then....) overall. But we all were relatively new to D&D back in the day, and only had Core books and such. Overall: Not much difference to mid Level play.


    The second one was about 5 years ago, and aside from banning clearly "RAW only TO" stuff, as well as Ice assassin/Aleax/Simulacrum exploits, it went "full". Howdy that was a blast, if very very hectic. I played a Sorcerer in that one, with a clear focus on Tramsformation and Summoning, and the group had a Cleric, an Initiator of complicated class composition and a Druid iirc.
    Only alsted about 2 months until we died to a well prepared Ambush of a lot of Devils, and was almost entirely No I ahve X" hectic, but was fun.


    If everything starts to go faster my most recent group will reach Level 15ish within the enxt 1-2 adventures, so I might update the experience.
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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Greater dispell magic against items is less reliable if your opponent use cl 100 items(there is ways to make an item be cl 100 for 1250gp extra cost by making one of the smith able to make cl 100 items add a cl100 level 0 spell as a scroll like activation effect)
    That does require access to CL 100 in the first place though, something I'd expect most games to lack. So I wouldn't consider that relevant for most games.
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Eh, I'be had one party finish at 17th and one party into low Epic. In both cases, it was only mid-high optimisation (so strong, but not close to TO) levels and is was pretty much like the lower levels only with a lot more kabooms on both sides.

    (I also have in 3.Aotrs some inherent limitations to stuff like divination and teleportation, such that scry-and-die would not always be a viable option (any sensible fortress is going to be scry and teleport warded), though I didn't have to really dig them out in either place.)

    There's only maybe one or two in our group (not including me) that would even approach close to TO (and, for that matter, the amount of material allowed in-game is selected (not even all of core gets a unilateral pass without modifications!) and okay'd mostly by me, so there's that.

    I am, however, STUPID enough to have stated that after we finish Rise of the Runelords (at approximately 17th), I am going to run most likely Return of the Runelords as a direct sequel. (Yes, I know how stupid a thing that was for me to volenteer...!) So, ask me again in... A few years, in all honestly, given that it'll be another year, probably before we've seen the end of RotRL and it likely won't be the first thing I do after that...

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    That does require access to CL 100 in the first place though, something I'd expect most games to lack. So I wouldn't consider that relevant for most games.
    Ways: 1: wish does not require you to have the needed cl for adding an effect to a magical item(one of the safe clauses of wish)
    2: Just play the right chain of classes and you can have cl 100 at level 20(and still a gigantic cl before level 20) for creating magical items which can be useful for a whole lot of things including making magical items resistant to dispel magic
    Or do the usual circle magic abuse.
    Last edited by noob; 2019-05-20 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Ways: 1: wish does not require you to have the needed cl for adding an effect to a magical item(one of the safe clauses of wish)
    2: Just play the right chain of classes and you can have cl 100 at level 20(and still a gigantic cl before level 20) for creating magical items which can be useful for a whole lot of things including making magical items resistant to dispel magic
    Or do the usual circle magic abuse.
    Guess I know what my next house rule addresses.

    As far as high level play goes, it's all what you make of it. I ran a campaign to level 21 and had a great time using all kinds of high-CR monsters. My current campaign is at level 13 and I plan to go to about 30.
    If everyone sticks to a gentleman's agreement to not abuse the rules it can be a really rewarding experience, and create moments everyone talks about for a long time.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    one idea for getting really high cl is the duegar monstrous class: it is crappy but it gives you a sla that have a cl of twice your hd.
    add to that spellthief and master spellthief and you have at least twice your hd in cl.(but you have less hd than ecl due to having a monstrous class)
    Last edited by noob; 2019-05-20 at 01:36 PM.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Ways: 1: wish does not require you to have the needed cl for adding an effect to a magical item(one of the safe clauses of wish)
    2: Just play the right chain of classes and you can have cl 100 at level 20(and still a gigantic cl before level 20) for creating magical items which can be useful for a whole lot of things including making magical items resistant to dispel magic
    Or do the usual circle magic abuse.
    Oh, that's just the tip of the iceberg. That said, obscene CL inflation is pretty high up there in the "Nope"-ladder at least in every game world I've played. And obviously Wish item creation is pretty borked straight-up.
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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Oh, that's just the tip of the iceberg. That said, obscene CL inflation is pretty high up there in the "Nope"-ladder at least in every game world I've played. And obviously Wish item creation is pretty borked straight-up.
    Agreed, and besides the thread is about what high level play is actually like, not how to break it and get books thrown at you.

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    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    From my personal experience with high level play (once as DM, once as a player) its very slow. Warrior types have lots of attacks. Spellcaster cause lots of saves. On top of that are multiple modifiers which change from round to round so the numbers are different, which all helps to bog play down to a crawl. And that's with low to medium optimisation.

    If playing at higher levels I'd highly recommend some tricks to speed things up such as rolling attack and damage together, cheat sheets for commonly used spells and abilities and especially the five second declaration rule.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schadenfreuda View Post
    After reading thread after thread about theoretical optimisation and all the ridiculous overpowered nonsense that's possible at high levels, I've become quite curious about what playing with 17th- or higher-level characters at the table. So, what are the experiences you've had? What's it like to be a party that powerful?
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    Melcar Silverdragon

    Male human Wizard 15/ Arcane Avatar 5/ Arch Mage 5/Wizard King 5/ Wordbearer 2: CR 32; Medium–size humanoid (human); HD 15d4 plus 5d4 plus 5d4 plus 5d6 plus 1d4 plus 217; hp 343; Init + 9; spd 30 ft.; AC 30 (touch 22, flat-footed 25); Atk + 20/+15 melee (1d4+5/19-20, +4 silver dagger) or +20/+15 ranged touch (by spell); SQ Arcane Avatar abilities, Arch Mage High Arcana, Wizard King abilities, Wordbearer abilities, enhanced constitution, enhanced intelligence, SR 30; AL CG; SV Fort +24, Ref +22, Will +30, (+5 bonus vs. spells and spell-like effects); Str 12, Dex 21, Con 24, Int 43, Wis 23, Cha 9; Height 6 ft. 2 in.
    Skills and Feats:, Appraise +16, Balance +5, Bluff +0, Climb +1, Concentration +42, Decipher Script +22, Diplomacy 2, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +5, Forgery +17, Gather Information 1, Heal +17, Hide +5, Intimidate -1, Jump +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +54, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +34, Knowledge (Elven Culture) +34, Knowledge (Geography) +34, Knowledge (History) +35, Knowledge (Imaskar) +34, Knowledge (Nature) +34, Knowledge (Netherill) +34, Knowledge (The Planes) +37, Knowledge (Religion) +37, Listen +23, Move Silently +5, Perform -1, Ride +5, Search +22, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +58, Spot +23, Swim +1, Use Rope +5, Survival +6;Feats: Automatic Quicken x3,Practiced Spellcaster, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Intelligence, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Improved Meta-magic, Insightful Caster, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe scroll, Silent Spell,Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Still Spell, True Believer, Summon Familiar.
    Special Qualities: Arcane Avatar abilities: Avatar of magic, augment magic, call spell, counter-magic, master of magic; Arch Mage High Arcana: Mastery of elements, mastery of shaping, spell power +1, spell power +2, spell power +3; Wizard King special abilities: Mastered spells, increased spell power, arcane resistance, fundamentals of magic, enhanced intelligence.

    Spellfire (Su): Melcar has the ability to control spellfire, like that of the feat, Spellfire wielder.

    Avatar of Magic (Ex): Melcar’s physical form is infused with magical power. Energy washes over him without harm or flows through him and his spells as he chooses. He has Spell resistance 15+ his charisma modifier. Melcar continuously radiates magic, and can thus be seen with detect magic spell or effect. He also sees magical auras with his regular vision. He has detect magic as his normal vision as a supernatural ability.

    Augment Magic (Ex): Melcar cast all his spells still and silent as of the meta-magic feats of the same name. He does this without increasing their level.

    Call spell (Ex): When preparing his spells for the day, Melcar may sacrifice any two spell slots of a given level to prepare any spell of the same level from his spell list. For example, if Melcar did not have the spell lightning bolt in his books he could choose to prepare it by using two of his level 3 spell slots.

    Counter-Magic (Ex): When attempting to counter an opponent’s casting, Melcar need not use dispel magic or his enemies spell. Instead he attempts to choke off the flow of energy to his foe’s casting. Instead of casting a spell to counter his enemy he imposes his force of will on the magical patterns that surrounds him.

    Master of Magic (Ex): Once per day, Melcar may enter a meditative state in which he melds his spirit with the magical energy and patterns that surround him. In this state, he command s absolute control over the arcane magic en his direct vicinity. He shunts magic away from his enemies while allowing it to flow to his body and mind.

    Mastery of Elements (Ex): Melcar can cast anyarcane spell he knows with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic designator to be cast as a different element. For example, a fireball may be cast to deal sonic damage instead of fire damage.

    Mastery of Shaping (Ex): Melcar can alter area and effect spells that use the following categories: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. For example, she could cast a fireball and leave a hole where her ally stands, preventing any fire damage. Furthermore, any shapeable (S) spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feetinstead of 10 feet.

    Spell Power +1 (Ex): Melcar receives +1 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 2 and 3

    Spell Power +2 (Ex): Melcar receives +2 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 1 and 3.

    Spell Power +3 (Ex): Melcar receives +3 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 1 and 2.

    Mastered Spells (Ex):
    Melcar may cast Teleport without Error in place of other prepared spells at any time. In order to do this, the character merely casts the spell and then marks one prepared spell off his list. This ability works exactly like the spontaneous casting of a cleric.

    Increased Spell Power (Ex): Melcar’s spells from the schools of Evocation and Transmutation has their save DC increased by two.

    Arcane Resistance (Ex): Melcar has a +3 circumstance bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like abilities.

    Fundamentals of Magic (Ex): Melcar has 10 levels of free meta-magic levels.

    Enhanced Intelligence (Ex): Melcar has a +4 legendary bonus to his Intelligence.

    Word of Power, Sleep (Su): With the pronouncement of a single, primal syllable, the wordbearer forces a single foe within 60 ft. to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep. This word forces a creature’s mind to immediately shut down and enter the state of sleep. This ability works only against creatures that are capable of hearing spoken words and vulnerable to the sleep spell. The victim of this ability may make a Will save to resist its effects. A creature forced asleep by this power awakens in 1d4 hours or if forcefully shaken or disturbed, as per the sleep spell. The wordbearer may speak this word three times per day.

    Word of Power, Terror (Su): This word of power arouses crippling fear in a single subject, freezing him in place as his muscles become rigid and his mind blanks. The victim is allowed a Will save (DC 20 + Int modifier) to overcome this effect. On a failed save, the creature is helpless. All melee attacks against a helpless target gain a +4 bonus to hit. A helpless creature treats his Dexterity score as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier was –5. As a full-round action, an opponent may deliver a coup de grace against a helpless creature. On a successful save, the victim still suffers the effects of a close brush with his deepest fears. He is considered shaken, suffering a –2 morale penalty to all attacks, damage rolls, and saving throws. The effects of this ability last for 2d4 rounds. The Wordbearer may speak this word three times per day. Mindless creatures and creatures immune to fear-effects are not subject to this word of power.

    Enhanced Intelligence (Ex): Melcar has a +5 inherent bonus to his Intelligence.

    Enhanced Constitution: Melcar has a +1 inherent bonus to his constitution.

    Wizard Spells per Day:
    5/11/10/10/10/9/9/8/8/8/8. Base DC 35 + spell level, 38 + spell level for Evocation and Transmutation spells. Caster level 32.

    Signature Possessions: Robe of Am’mara*, Headband of Intellect +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Pearl of Wisdom +6, Belt of Constitution +6, Ring of Protection +5, Ring of Evasion/ Enduring Arcana, Bracers of Armor +8, Cloak of Resistance +5, Boots of Sprinting and Striding.
    * Rope of Am’mara: (Artifact)

    This black and dark red robe is of epic beauty. It is long with black runes magically drawn upon it. It gives the wearer the appearance of rulership. This great robe was given to Am’mara, as rulership of a Netherese city became hers. It grants the wearer the following abilities:
    • Spell resistance 30
    • Immunity to mind effecting spells.
    • Ability to cast one extra spell per lvl. 1-9.
    • DC of all spells increase +2
    • +2 to all saving throws against spells and spell like abilities.



    The other player plays:

    Spoiler: Beregond Blackfield Messana
    Show

    HP: 330

    Level 12 Paladin
    Level 8 Lightbringer of Lathander 'Morninglord'
    Level 3 Dawn Knight
    Level 5 Sovereign King
    Level 3 Human Paragon
    Level 1 Sovereign

    Str 18 (24) +7
    Dex 14 (20) +5
    Con 12 (18) +4
    Int 15 (21) +5
    Wis 13 (19) +4
    Cha 32 (38) +14

    Saves Total Base Ab. Mod. Divine Grace Feat Sacred Resist.
    Fort 60 19 4 28 2 2 5
    Reflex 51 13 3 28 2 5
    Will 53 14 4 28 2 5

    Initiative: +13 (+4 dex, +4 improved initiative, +5 Kauper's Skittish Nerves)

    Attack Bonuses
    32/32/27/22/17 1d8 + 10 15-20\x3
    Silvered Dagger +3 31/26/21/16 1d4 + 9 19-20\x2

    Armour Class
    +5 full plate of great fortification +16
    +5 large steel shield +10
    +5 natural armor +5
    +2 sacred bonus (Touched by Lathander) +2
    Ring of Protection + 5 +5
    Dexterity +4 (mithril full plate)
    Shield of Charm 14 Cha

    Total 66

    Gear:
    +5 dwarven crafted obdorium mercurial keen ghost touch longsword of holy power, cloak of charisma +6, barbuta of protection from evil, silvered dagger +3, +5 mithril battle plate of grace, belt of excellence +6, +5 extreme mithril shield of leadership, ring of protection +5, headband of clear mind +6, choker of eloquence, bracers of natural armor +5, 1 potion of fly,



    Special Qualities:
    Divine Grace
    Divine Health
    Altered Appearance (Good Outsider, unnaturally intense stare, sun birthmark)
    Contact
    Touched by Lathander (+2 to AC and Saves)

    Special Abilities:
    Detect Evil, at will
    Lay on Hands 674 HP
    Aura of Courage
    Smite Evil 1\day +12 to attack 22 to damage
    Remove Disease 6\week
    Turning 20/day
    Greater turning 1\day
    Create Food and Water 3\day
    Cure Lathander's Flock 1\day (2d8 + 12)
    Instill Lathander's Strength 1\ day (1d6 str for 20 rds)
    Shroud of Lathander (+12 AC for 18 rounds, reveals hidden\invisible enemies within 90 feet)
    Planar Travel 1/day
    Summon Blade
    Burial Blessing
    Eagle's Splendor
    Daylight
    Sending
    Commune
    Holy Word
    Lathander's Ever Seeing Eyes
    Divine Might
    Leadership +2
    One With the Land
    One With the Fauna
    One With the People
    Hands of a True King
    Boon of a True King
    Pass the Mantle
    Adaptive learning - Profession (Politician)
    Ability Boost +2 Charisma


    Feats:
    Improved Initiative, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Improved Critical (Longsword), Massive Critical (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword), Leadership, Extra Followers X3, Landlord, Entourage, Mighty Leader, Epic Leadership, Legendary Commander, Divine Blood, Shield of Charm and Aura of Command.



    As you can see, we are pretty high level, but we run a fairly low to medium optimized game. I, the wizard are currently doing archeology with my 4 level 17 apprentices, where we try to uncover more info on the Wordbearer class. We are currently in Mulhorand scouring through the libraries.

    Beregond, is King of Waterdeep and has named his kingdom Walden. He runs a high political intrigue campaign in which his political and religious enemies try to undermine his rule and create chaos and tension in his kingdom. A few wars too, but his armies are so massive and powerful that non really dares face him in open combat, so its underhanded methods and the like being employed!

    So, as you can see, there are no underwear sewn with the fabric of space time itself, or +50 items. Yes, both our characters are really powerful in combat, but nowhere near the level to power ratios that goes on here at Gitpf.


    I see and hear the usual tropes too. "At level 20+, you are basically challenging The Lady of Pain for the rule Sigil..." and frankly I think that happens only at tables where people actively try to abuse strict raw to basically break the game. In 99% of tables I highly doubt that Pun Puns are actually something that happens.

    The main reason for us still playing is the fun. We rarely have personal encounters or combat and its really just that we have had so much fun with our characters throughout the years, that we don't want to stop. Also, we all set some really high lofted goals back in the day, and we have yet to fulfill them. For me, I wanted to basically become the most powerful mage in all of Faerun and well Larloch, the Srinshee and Ioulaum's still more powerful than my character. For Beredond is was to be King (Emperor) of all Fearun. He's currently having trouble managing one kingdom and one colony. So we still have work to do.

    Most of our game is purely talking, with the odd skill check here and there. When it does turn into personal tactical combat, its either against the King, which means a host of Kingsguards or its against me and 4 level 17 wizards, and well its either done in the first round or we end up disengaging because we are unable to destroy each other. Basically a gaming night is an evening of talk, laughs and confusing puzzles.


    Hope this helps!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2019-05-21 at 07:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    So, at my tables, high-level play is much like mid-level play: balance to the table.

    As much as I'd like to play 5d Chess at Tippy's table, my tables just don't like that style.

    So, let's go through a few examples:

    Quertus' preferred party: Quertus mostly just reads his book while the crit-stacking 3.0 Vorpal Fighter beheads everything, and the Monk is the party MVP.

    The BDH party: almost every combat is decided in a single round, with the opponents (and some of the party) likely never getting a turn. Turns are extremely fast, dozens of fights can be had a night, everyone gets to shine. Few parties are more fun, or easier to design content for. The rare monster / challenge that actually makes the party think / work for their victory is not just memorable but legendary - moreso than most any other monster in any other campaign, because it actually challenged these guys. OTOH, with the tagline, "we waded through them like they were humans", this party struggles with things like CR 0 basic social interaction. So "the friendly town mayor" may be more of a challenge than the CR+8 Dragon.

    The "all-Rogue" party: epic fails. Not everyone is stealthy, so we cannot just bypass encounters. Despite what should be ridiculous DPS, numerous opponents have survived our attacks to attempt to flee. Still, our foes are usually naked before they get a turn.

    BBEG & friends: This party… played the game "as intended" - they dealt damage to things. And that's the only way that they played "as intended". Their début mission set the tone by turning a published module on its head, with them surrendering to the "proper authorities" (who happened to be monsters, including an Illithid). For its climax, well, I had set someone up with the obvious intent of them becoming the late game BBEG, that the party even helped to create. Instead, the party joined forces with him. Good times.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
    Agreed, and besides the thread is about what high level play is actually like, not how to break it and get books thrown at you.
    Which is why y'all should stop calling BadWrongFun on how people at actual tables play - *if* that's what happens at their tables. Wasting 5k+ XP (25+k GP) to protect one item from one spell, that no one wants to use anyway for metagame reasons of "****, that's a lot of bookkeeping - and would slow the game down"? That would be horrifically suboptimal, but would otherwise fly at my tables.

    Also, if spending huge sums of gold or XP to protect an item from a single spell breaks your games, maybe you should take a careful look at your games, to make them more robust, and less easy to break.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    So, as you can see, there are no underwear sewn with the fabric of space time itself,
    Underwear seemed a little personal; Quertus, my signature academia mage. for whom this account is named, just made a cloak. He rarely wears it, though.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-05-21 at 08:14 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Hiro Quester's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    In the two campaigns I have played to low-epic levels, there are a lot more options for players to solve problems, but also a lot more options for the GM to use to challenge the players.

    The enemies are probably working for, supplied by, and fed intelligence by Gods at this point. They are able to know about and plan for the players' typical strategies. So enemies are rocking energy immunities, spell resistance, anti-magic fields, and equipment and abilities designed to take advantage of the players' weaknesses.

    Our DM also made the God-supplied bad-guys teleport out the round they died, so at best a player might have a chance (reflex save) of grabbing one magic item from a body before it disappears. That enabled the God to supply they bad guys with good gear, but not just be inadvertently supplying the PCs with all that gear.

    In addition, the McGuffin is usually under a time-pressure threat, so players need to face many different encounters without time to rest in between, so conserving spell resources becomes a serious concern (which enables the mundanes to shine).

    This means that even though the T1 PCs could end an encounter by unloading their best spells and abilities on the problem, they have to think about holding some back for the unpredictably-many further encounters there are going to be before they get to the McGuffin.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.
    Spoiler: Avatar & Iron Chef Awards
    Show
    Awesome Dragonfire Bard Avatar by Oneris. A detailed version is here.
    Iron Chef awards:
    IC C Swiftblade: Honorable Mention for Pahika Kanikani, the Wardancer
    IC CII Blade Dancer: Silver for Hu Tiaowu, the Jungle Guardian

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: What is High-Level Play Actually Like at the Table?

    I made the combat a smaller part of the quest and players actually enjoyed it. Think about it, players at that level want to feel godlike, giving them small combat encounters that they blow up are extremely rewarding for them, I make the challenges more of a mental thing, I introduce grey bad guys that force a moral decision, give them puzzles then introduce a level 30 baddy every few weeks, like a darmmamu to the strange

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