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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default So, thrallherd believers

    So I am in a gestalt campaign but my thrall and my believers are not gestalt, which is good. But because it is gestalt my believers arent very useful. I would like to use them to help make the world a better place. it is a modern campaign and our world is considered the prime material. I was going to make all my level 1 believers the same things and all my 2 levels be the same and so forth until the max level believer which is 4th level. I dont know classes very well so here is where I ask for help. My level 1s are basically gonna make a version of red cross except with my money as backing. All my believers are gonna be part of this in some way but my level 4s I want to be politicans that will help change the world (probably mostly america). What classes would be useful for this? I know there is a commoner class but.... I dont know much else. Any Ideas?
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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Red Fel's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelenigma View Post
    So I am in a gestalt campaign but my thrall and my believers are not gestalt, which is good. But because it is gestalt my believers arent very useful. I would like to use them to help make the world a better place. it is a modern campaign and our world is considered the prime material. I was going to make all my level 1 believers the same things and all my 2 levels be the same and so forth until the max level believer which is 4th level. I dont know classes very well so here is where I ask for help. My level 1s are basically gonna make a version of red cross except with my money as backing. All my believers are gonna be part of this in some way but my level 4s I want to be politicans that will help change the world (probably mostly america). What classes would be useful for this? I know there is a commoner class but.... I dont know much else. Any Ideas?
    The fact is, Believers really aren't going to be useful - at least, not combat-wise. By way of example, to acquire 4th-level Believers, your Thrallherd score must be 17 or more - that means that your character level + Cha bonus + Thrallherd level must be 17. The game expects this won't happen until you're around level 13 (as reflected in your Thrall's level cap being 12). At level 13, level 4 Believers are mostly useless.

    In combat.

    Believers are extremely useful in non-combat roles. Keep in mind that even in a gestalt setting, there are plenty of non-combatant NPCs. Villagers, aristocrats, craftsmen, clergy, and so forth. And as it happens, there are NPC classes - that is, classes for characters who have no significant (read: PC-level) power, but minor background ability. These include the Adept, a sort of local priest caster class; the Aristocrat, a wealthy noble class; the Commoner, exactly what it says on the tin; the Expert, for craftsmen and skillmonkeys; and the Warrior, for your typical low-level town guard or mercenary.

    The fact is, you could try for actual PC classes. You could have low-level Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics instead of Adepts; you could have Fighters and Berserkers instead of Warriors; you could even go for some of the more skill-oriented classes, like Battlesmith, in place of the Expert. But the advantage of NPC classes is that they require absolutely minimal bookkeeping - no significant class features (aside from an Adept's spells), just feats and skills by level.

    Really, though, the best use for your Believers is as skillmonkeys. Why? Because skillmonkeys can make money and do your crafting. With investments in Craft and similar skills, they can do all sorts of things for you. Even without that, untrained laborers earn an average of 1 sp per day. Assuming it all goes into one pool, you can generate enough to feed and house your minions, then skim the profits. Have some of them build you a home or fortress or something. Have the rest live there and work in the nearby town for profit. Your Adepts can offer healing, your Warriors can be a town guard, your Experts can craft and stuff, and aside from what they need to eat, it all goes back into your vault.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    Understandable, though for this campaign we have three crafters in group and a few creatures that can take over crafting for the crafters after they start it. So crafters arent very much needed and because of being one of the only two good characters in campaign i want to make the world better. Hence the reason for sending my believers out to help out stop things like world hunger and stopping other things from happening. So adept might be a great option for things like charming and phsycometoblism.
    Last edited by Angelenigma; 2019-05-19 at 07:04 PM.
    ~The enigma with a good heart~

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    The point about crafting is that the best way followers/believers can be directly relevant to your PC is by way of earning money. Since you're planning to make them a worldbuilding tool, all that goes out the window, and the question becomes "can they do X, or can they not?" This means that a few of your high level ones could probably stand to be skillmonkeys if you're going to direct them in more detail and be making rolls with them, but other than that it's pretty much fluff. If a villain or other PC intends them harm, there's little they can do to stop it, so don't worry about combat prowess. As you figured out though, caster levels can be quite useful. Especially if you're looking at politics and Red Cross.

    Important question: Can you give them PC classes? I will assume yes. If not, your choices are limited and have already been explained. Just remember that the Adept gains access to new spells like a sorcerer, so there's not much point to having any above level 1 unless they're level 4, or 6.

    On that note, if you can give them cleric or wizard levels, level 3 is a good spot. Wizards can get some neat tools in their spellbooks, especially if they're sharing a library, though this can be a bit taxing as you're footing the bill. Still, Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, illusions, Whispering Wind, Ventriloquism, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, and don't you dare forget Message. Clerics would be perfect for your red cross operation, as your level 1's can handle basic things like healing and your level 3's can provide such gems as Make Whole, Remove Paralysis, and Lesser Restoration. These may seem like nothing to you, but to common folk they're practically miracles. On the subject of politics, if you can boost the save DC of at least one such cleric, Zone of Truth is a nice gem. If you aren't the most morally sound, your clerics can even provide Undetectable Alignment for your politicians.

    As you can see, your biggest toolbox is those casters. If you have any uses for believers that aren't casters, make them the level 2s, because your 1s and 3s are better spent as wizards and clerics. This is of course just from the SRD... I believe there's a lot more out there if you find someone knowledgeable.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelenigma View Post
    Understandable, though for this campaign we have three crafters in group and a few creatures that can take over crafting for the crafters after they start it. So crafters arent very much needed and because of being one of the only two good characters in campaign i want to make the world better. Hence the reason for sending my believers out to help out stop things like world hunger and stopping other things from happening. So adept might be a great option for things like charming and phsycometoblism.
    Do you have any Druid friends? You could have your Adepts craft Create Food and Water traps on steel plates with the money you make, but that requires a 5th-level Druid, or a Creation/Gluttony Cleric. That'd literally solve all hunger in the world.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    By default, your believers are strictly commoners, experts and warriors, nothing else. If you want other classes, they come with a "level adjustment" of sorts, which is outlined in the epic level handbook (though it's an optional rule and thus requires DM approval): adepts and aristocrats are treated as followers two levels higher than their actual level (so a 2nd level adept would eat up one of your 4th level follower slots), and PC classes are counted as three levels higher (so a level 1 druid would also eat up one of your 4th level follower slots).
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    Instead of trying to optimize build for your Believers, you should be trying to optimize station. Do you want to be influencing Congress? Aim for Believers who are members of their staff, or even congresscritters themselves. They will willingly obey your "suggestions" for what laws to propose and pass, what to stonewall, what to block.

    Want the same, but in a more monarchial court? Get the servants in the palace as your informants. Get the guards on your side. Get a few viziers or minor nobles or functionaries who manage paperwork.

    Are you one of many potential heirs to a title? Get the decision-makers' underlings, the court hangers-on, the people who ostensibly work for your rivals all under your sway.

    You don't need to mind-control everyone at a corporation to control it utterly. Even if you don't have all of the Board, or the President, you can have enough of the functionaries and mid-level decision-makers working for you that only things you want done actually get done with any efficiency.

    You may not be able to choose all of your Believers, but you can potentially influence what pools of people they come from.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kool View Post
    The point about crafting is that the best way followers/believers can be directly relevant to your PC is by way of earning money.
    That is awesome and useful. I will have to keep in mind the players handbook classess... though I will have to talk to my two dugeon masters about the level adjustment brought up by someone else.
    ~The enigma with a good heart~

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: So, thrallherd believers

    My thrallherd used his believers as information gathering.
    My spy network became incredibly powerful, netting blackmail material, rooting out cultists, illithid and other threats, distributing information anonymously.

    In combat, it takes some planning and some money, but the effectiveness of hordes of followers should not be underestimated, especially if your opponent has a weakness you can exploit.

    For example, take the void lord from pathfinder. A truly fearsome cr 20 opponent... with one major fatal flaw. Nor fire resistance. Give your believers fire arrows, and have them attack. 500 followers with fire arrows attacking at once... that's generally going to be 25d6 points per round after you hit the void lord with dispels to break any magical fire res it has. Spread your believers out enough and he will not be able to kill them quickly enough.

    Against other PCs, it might prove more difficult to use, but I have killed PCs before with lvl 1 hordes.
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