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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I think TDO was a boss of a minor dungeon, but then survived, wasn't killed, and went ahead and took actions to make change for all goblinoids. He's a hero so powerful that he went ahead, broke free of the narrative, and made it his own.
    I really like this take on TDO. *tips cap* I also think that his favorite drink should be Grape Nehi.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-06-13 at 11:54 AM.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    ... if you think about it... that's exactly what happened to Xykon...

    boss of a minor dungeon

    survived

    is now taking over the narrative

    ... uh oh..
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    ... if you think about it... that's exactly what happened to Xykon...

    boss of a minor dungeon

    survived

    is now taking over the narrative

    ... uh oh..
    Oh no.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Use your smite bite to fight the plight right. Fill the site with light and give fright to wights as a knight of the night, teeth white; mission forthright, evil in flight. Despite the blight within, you perform the rite, ignore any contrite slight, fangs alight, soul bright.

    That sight is dynamite.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    OH, no, the ecru quiddity is about to ascend! *flees for the hills*
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    OH, no, the ecru quiddity is about to ascend! *flees for the hills*
    Don't worry, we have the vomit green quiddity on our side!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Use your smite bite to fight the plight right. Fill the site with light and give fright to wights as a knight of the night, teeth white; mission forthright, evil in flight. Despite the blight within, you perform the rite, ignore any contrite slight, fangs alight, soul bright.

    That sight is dynamite.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I think that's a case of upbringing. Personalities aren't genetic.
    I think he might have been referring to the fact that each inherited a trait from the non-custodial parent as well (Elan got his dad's penchant for narrative, while Nale inherited his mother's obsession with overly-complicated plans.)

    Of course, we can't know whether this implies anything about Lamarckian evolution unless we confirm that those traits didn't exist in previous generations. It's quite possible that Elan is only the most recent sequel in a franchise stretching back to the creation of this world.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    I think he might have been referring to the fact that each inherited a trait from the non-custodial parent as well (Elan got his dad's penchant for narrative, while Nale inherited his mother's obsession with overly-complicated plans.)

    Of course, we can't know whether this implies anything about Lamarckian evolution unless we confirm that those traits didn't exist in previous generations. It's quite possible that Elan is only the most recent sequel in a franchise stretching back to the creation of this world.
    Or Beyond,
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Or Beyond,
    DUN Dun dun
    They've had a version of him every single iteration of the universe, passing down his Elanian traits for generations.
    Most of the gods are kind of tired of him, but Njord likes his archetype too much to do without him.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    They've had a version of him every single iteration of the universe, passing down his Elanian traits for generations.
    Most of the gods are kind of tired of him, but Njord likes his archetype too much to do without him.
    No, not, Njord, Banjo! He is what keeps the Elanian line alive, and makes sure every one of them escapes the world.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Xykon has always been the big bad of this narrative though - when this narrative became more complicated it was largely built around him and Redcloak. I don't think he ever qualified for minor boss.

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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    No, not, Njord, Banjo! He is what keeps the Elanian line alive, and makes sure every one of them escapes the world.
    Now all i can think of is Banjo, and his collection of Elans from all over the multiverse...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Use your smite bite to fight the plight right. Fill the site with light and give fright to wights as a knight of the night, teeth white; mission forthright, evil in flight. Despite the blight within, you perform the rite, ignore any contrite slight, fangs alight, soul bright.

    That sight is dynamite.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Xykon has always been the big bad of this narrative though - when this narrative became more complicated it was largely built around him and Redcloak. I don't think he ever qualified for minor boss.
    Redcloak was the first big bad in the story, but he's really fallen to the side by the sorting alghorytm of evil.

    This is, when was the last time we even saw Xykon or he was even mentioned? Redcloak's the main non-god target now, worthy of Thor's attention. Plus plenty of gods willing to just blow up this world anyway even if Xykon was stopped for good. Xykon's only relevance right now is being the skeleton that always hangs near Redcloak.

    Xykon may yet play a role, but at this point the worst he could do at this point is probably just blow up the last gate out of pure spite once he finds out Redcloak's been manipulating him all this time. But most of the gods would just be "meh, just another world lost, we can make another, the cycle continues".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Redcloak was the first big bad in the story, but he's really fallen to the side by the sorting alghorytm of evil.

    This is, when was the last time we even saw Xykon or he was even mentioned? Redcloak's the main non-god target now, worthy of Thor's attention. Plus plenty of gods willing to just blow up this world anyway even if Xykon was stopped for good. Xykon's only relevance right now is being the skeleton that always hangs near Redcloak.

    Xykon may yet play a role, but at this point the worst he could do at this point is probably just blow up the last gate out of pure spite once he finds out Redcloak's been manipulating him all this time. But most of the gods would just be "meh, just another world lost, we can make another, the cycle continues".
    Xykon is the main antagonist because he wants to take over the world, yes it’s been three years since he was last mentioned or appeared, but Redcloak hasn’t been mentioned by name since then either. To save the world Redcloak needs to be convinced to be somewhat redeemed, so Xykon will be the final person to be fought by the OOTS.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    I agree with Schroeswald. Redcloak is *deep* into the sunk cost fallacy by now, he's not going to help the "good guys" so long as there's a chance of carrying out the Plan--and Xykon is key to that. If Xykon and his phylactery are both destroyed, then Redcloak might be persuaded to listen to reason, not before.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I agree with Schroeswald. Redcloak is *deep* into the sunk cost fallacy by now, he's not going to help the "good guys" so long as there's a chance of carrying out the Plan--and Xykon is key to that. If Xykon and his phylactery are both destroyed, then Redcloak might be persuaded to listen to reason, not before.
    Yes, Xykon, needs to be removed.

    No, Xykon isn't a key part of Redcloak's plan. The lich's a pretty powerful asset, but Redcloak has grown quite powerful himself. Remember how easily he crushed the Azure resistance? The glorious goblin pope could probably solo the OOTS.

    If anything, Redcloak himself is preparing to backstab Xykon by having switched his phylactery.

    The OotS may perfectly end up not having their final battle against Xykon at all, just Redcloak going "you've out(un)lived your usefulness".

    Or maybe Roy and Xykon end up having a final private duel. The lich's is Greenhilt's nemesis, and every time they meet it ends up getting personal.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-05 at 06:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Yes, Xykon, needs to be removed.

    No, Xykon isn't a key part of Redcloak's plan. The lich's a pretty powerful asset, but Redcloak has grown quite powerful himself. Remember how easily he crushed the Azure resistance? The glorious goblin pope could probably solo the OOTS.

    If anything, Redcloak himself is preparing to backstab Xykon by having switched his phylactery.

    The OotS may perfectly end up not having their final battle against Xykon at all, just Redcloak going "you've out(un)lived your usefulness".
    Xykon is very clearly a key part of his plan, sunk cost fallacy and all that, he’s also the only high level person he’s been able to trick into being willing to cast the spell, for better or worse Redcloak is stuck on this ship until it sinks all the way down.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Xykon is very clearly a key part of his plan, sunk cost fallacy and all that, he’s also the only high level person he’s been able to trick into being willing to cast the spell, for better or worse Redcloak is stuck on this ship until it sinks all the way down.
    Then why did Redcloak went through all the trouble of switching Xykon's phylactery? It was an extremely risky move and makes zero sense if Redcloak's ready to sink with the lich. The goblin pope is finally ready to cut his losses.

    Plus Redcloak has plan B of "let this world be destroyed and hope the next one is better", for which Xykon isn't necessary either.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-05 at 07:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Then why did Redcloak went through all the trouble of switching Xykon's phylactery? It was an extremely risky move and makes zero sense if Redcloak's ready to sink with the lich. The goblin pope is finally ready to cut his losses.

    Plus Redcloak has plan B of "let this world be destroyed and hope the next one is better", for which Xykon isn't necessary either.
    In case Xykon figures it out he’s ready to use the phylactery to keep him in check

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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    In case Xykon figures it out he’s ready to use the phylactery to keep him in check
    Redcloak already tried that specific move in the prequel book and it failed. So the goblin pope's planning something new to do with that phylactery, and it's not gonna be nice for the lich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    At the very least stealing the phylactery considerably diminishes Xykon’s chances of surviving Redcloak.

    In any case Redcloak needs to believe he controls the Lich so plotting behind his back, even if it is ineffectual would help him preserve whatever sanity he has left.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    At the very least stealing the phylactery considerably diminishes Xykon’s chances of surviving Redcloak.

    In any case Redcloak needs to believe he controls the Lich so plotting behind his back, even if it is ineffectual would help him preserve whatever sanity he has left.
    No need to steal the phylactery then, Redcloak's been plotting behind Xykon's back since day 1. The lich still has no idea that controling the snarl is impossible and the plan is just to sick the eldritch abomination upon the gods.

    Remember when Redcloak made that goth necromancer get eaten by her own ghouls when she thought she had the upper hand over him? It was glorious, and I predict Redcloak will pull something even greater with Xykon before the comic is over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Then why did Redcloak went through all the trouble of switching Xykon's phylactery? It was an extremely risky move and makes zero sense if Redcloak's ready to sink with the lich. The goblin pope is finally ready to cut his losses.
    Without a high level arcane caster, the Plan goes nowhere. Redcloak has been chasing this thing for thirty years or more, you're thinking he's going to off Xykon now when he has no alternative in place? The guy is many things, but stupid isn't one of them. As for why he switched Xykon's phylactery, his speech to Tsukiko shortly before doing that explains that perfectly--he sees Xykon as a tool that he controls, and hiding his real phylactery is part of that.

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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    In my opinion, the ol' phylactery switcheroo wasn't about Redcloak planning to off Xykon, it was about appeasing his own conscience. Now, whenever the question of what he's been doing to contain Xykon's threat to goblinoids everywhere pops up, Redcloak can fool himself by saying "I stole his phylactery so that I can destroy him for good at the right time", even though he's absolutely not working towards that goal and never has. Quite the contrary, actually.

    The most charitable reading IMO would be that Redcloak did it because he knows himself and knows he can't trust himself to do the right thing and destroy Xykon when the opportunity arises, so he gave himself a push (if Xykon's body is destroyed, the rabbit is out of the hat and Redcloak has to destroy the phylactery no matter how much he dislikes the idea).

    Most likely, though, it was just to give himself a fake sense of control, even if it's a kind of control he can't exercise at all.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2019-08-05 at 10:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    No need to steal the phylactery then, Redcloak's been plotting behind Xykon's back since day 1. The lich still has no idea that controling the snarl is impossible and the plan is just to sick the eldritch abomination upon the gods.

    Remember when Redcloak made that goth necromancer get eaten by her own ghouls when she thought she had the upper hand over him? It was glorious, and I predict Redcloak will pull something even greater with Xykon before the comic is over.
    Remember when
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    Xykon had Redcloak murder and desecrate the corpse of his own beloved brother?


    Redcloak needs to believe he is a chessmaster manipulating a powerful tool to how own ends and that he can control said tool else he would have to face the guilt of what he has done.
    But the truth is that he has long lost control of the monster he unleashed on his own people and that it is only because said monster has nothing better to stave off his own boredom that he still vaguely going in the direction Red aimed for.
    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    In my opinion, the ol' phylactery switcheroo wasn't about Redcloak planning to off Xykon, it was about appeasing his own conscience. Now, whenever the question of what he's been doing to contain Xykon's threat to goblinoids everywhere pops up, Redcloak can fool himself by saying "I stole his phylactery so that I can destroy him for good at the right time", even though he's absolutely not working towards that goal and never has. Quite the contrary, actually.

    The most charitable reading IMO would be that Redcloak did it because he knows himself and knows he can't trust himself to do the right thing and destroy Xykon when the opportunity arises, so he gave himself a push (if Xykon's body is destroyed, the rabbit is out of the hat and Redcloak has to destroy the phylactery no matter how much he dislikes the idea).

    Most likely, though, it was just to give himself a fake sense of control, even if it's a kind of control he can't exercise at all.
    Exactly, thank you!
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-08-05 at 11:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    I couldn’t predict table, and I can’t predict the end of the story.

    But I can imagine redcloak turning on Xykon and destroying the phylactery after Xykon has been destroyed by the OotS.

    In fact, I can imagine Redcloak doing things far worse to Xykon than simply destroying his phylactery.

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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    I figure he’s got the phylactery because he plans on destroying both it and Xykon immediately after the Plan is completed. Which he couldn’t do if the real phylactery was in Xykon’s astral fortress.
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2019-08-05 at 11:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    I mean, Xykon was the original big bad to the Order and defeating him has been their main goal for a long time (both in story and from a meta perspective). He seems to still fit in the big bad role in the story despite the fact that he is unwittingly pursuing Redcloak's goals and that Redcloak and his god are the main instigators of a lot of the plot. It can appear confusing because in a lot of stuff the plot is entirely driven by the big bad because they have the most power, whereas Redcloak does it by convincing the more powerful big bad to join his plan, attack Azure city, etc. Defeating Xykon has been the order's main goal for a long time (first to fulfill Roy's quest, then to keep him from the gates) for a long time, and Durkon's quest from Thor sets up Redcloak as someone who needs to be talked to and Xykon as the biggest obstacle preventing it from happening. If The Order had found out long ago that The Plan was really Redcloak's thing, he might've been a candidate for true big bad, but as it stands I think Xykon fulfills that role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I figure he’s got the phylactery because he plans on destroying both it and Xykon immediately after the Plan is completed. Which he couldn’t do if the real phylactery was in Xykon’s astral fortress.
    That could be the case - I get the impression Redcloak doesn't care much about what happens to him personally once the Plan is completed, but he could be thinking that even if the Dark One wins in this world, Xykon would remain a threat if he's not destroyed. Redcloak might also want to make sure Xykon will be undone if the Plan fails. I guess there's any number of more or less vague motivations for Redcloak to do the switcheroo without having any concrete plans to turn on Xykon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    That could be the case - I get the impression Redcloak doesn't care much about what happens to him personally once the Plan is completed, but he could be thinking that even if the Dark One wins in this world, Xykon would remain a threat if he's not destroyed. Redcloak might also want to make sure Xykon will be undone if the Plan fails. I guess there's any number of more or less vague motivations for Redcloak to do the switcheroo without having any concrete plans to turn on Xykon.
    I'm pretty sure that regardless of the exact time that Redcloak destroys Xykon, it will still count as turning on Xykon.

    Unless you want to pull a Char and claim that Redcloak was never loyal to Xykon in the first place so he can never betray him.

    Either way the risk is still pretty great. Whatever the goblin pope's planning to do with the real phylactery, it must end with Xykon destroyed for good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Remember when
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    Xykon had Redcloak murder and desecrate the corpse of his own beloved brother?


    Redcloak needs to believe he is a chessmaster manipulating a powerful tool to how own ends and that he can control said tool else he would have to face the guilt of what he has done.
    Redcloak isn't the pope of Mr. Rainbows the benevolent god.

    Redcloak is the pope of the Dark One, a god of war and violence that ascended after running a bloody crusade accross the land.

    People sometimes seem to forget that Redcloak is evil. What's a few/lots of sacrifices along the road? What's close family compared to your god's direct decree? The goblin pope's even stated to be ready to sacrifice all of goblinkind in his divine mission by just getting the world destroyed and hope the next one is better.

    Contrast to Xykon who actually declared he enjoys this world and has no plans to destroy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But the truth is that he has long lost control of the monster he unleashed on his own people and that it is only because said monster has nothing better to stave off his own boredom that he still vaguely going in the direction Red aimed for.
    That's still control. In particular considering that there's a plenty long line of corpses of people who tried to manipulate Xykon.

    And funny thing is, Redcloak's the even bigger monster here, with a plan that risks ending with both the world and gods destroyed. That's overkill even by Xykon's standards.

    So no, even if the OoTS has some big battle against the lich and wins, Redcloak won't go "oh I guess I surrender". Redcloak will go "you just destroyed my loose puppet, now you face me". The real challenge will be to bring down Redcloak whitout killing him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Schroeswald's Avatar

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    Default Re: Origins of Purple Quiddity?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that regardless of the exact time that Redcloak destroys Xykon, it will still count as turning on Xykon.

    Unless you want to pull a Char and claim that Redcloak was never loyal to Xykon in the first place so he can never betray him.

    Either way the risk is still pretty great. Whatever the goblin pope's planning to do with the real phylactery, it must end with Xykon destroyed for good.
    Yes, but he'll likely have been convinced by Durkon to be good by that point.

    Redcloak isn't the pope of Mr. Rainbows the benevolent god.

    Redcloak is the pope of the Dark One, a god of war and violence that ascended after running a bloody crusade accross the land.

    People sometimes seem to forget that Redcloak is evil. What's a few/lots of sacrifices along the road? What's close family compared to your god's direct decree? The goblin pope's even stated to be ready to sacrifice all of goblinkind in his divine mission by just getting the world destroyed and hope the next one is better.

    Contrast to Xykon who actually declared he enjoys this world and has no plans to destroy it.
    Spoiler: What I guess happened in SoD
    Show

    Redcloak looks into the mirror, where he looks like his dead brother, and says that it will all be worth it, if that's not him saying he doesn't see it as nothing, short of him saying
    I have very strong mixed feelings about killing my brother, Right-Eye
    I don't know what is


    That's still control. In particular considering that there's a plenty long line of corpses of people who tried to manipulate Xykon.

    And funny thing is, Redcloak's the even bigger monster here, with a plan that risks ending with both the world and gods destroyed. That's overkill even by Xykon's standards.

    So no, even if the OoTS has some big battle against the lich and wins, Redcloak won't go "oh I guess I surrender". Redcloak will go "you just destroyed my loose puppet, now you face me". The real challenge will be to bring down Redcloak whitout killing him.
    Or, they bring Redcloak on their side (because that's the goal), and then kill Xykon, who can't be reasoned with, because he doesn't have clear and sympathetic motivations that can be looked at.
    Last edited by Schroeswald; 2019-08-05 at 07:35 PM.

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