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    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    So, I'm gonna be in a game where I'll be Gestalting DFA with a Caster. But, despite the DFA being weaker than pretty much any Caster, I'd like to focus on the DFA bit. So what kind of caster is better than SAD-they're NAD?
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    iirc the customary answer to that is Warlock, being one of the most attribute independent classes in the game.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Every spellcasting class has a particular ability score that must be 10+spell level to cast a given spell. A DFA would want decent Int for skill points, and/or decent Cha for the skills you use and DCs of any invocations that have a save.

    I'd go with Bard, with a lot of substitute songs: Inspire Awe instead of Inspire Courage, Healing Hymn in place of Fascinate, Spellbreaker Song instead of Countersong, and trade Suggestion for the Haunting Melody feat. Bardic Knack is also highly recommended. In this case you'll definitely want the Frightful Presence lesser invocation, and probably Dreadful Wrath or similar. Take a look at the fear handbook for pointers on how to make the most of this. For your perform skill you'll want something one-handed that doesn't involve your mouth, maybe a scary tambourine?

    Take Entangling Exhalation so the opponents who are escalated to frightened or panicked won't be able to run away very well and may cower instead. Put max ranks in Intimidate, get Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar for a Krenshar which can use its scare ability or intimidate using your ranks. Get armor with the fearsome property in DotU, Imperious Command from that same book, and the Never Outnumbered skill trick. With fearsome armor you can intimidate an opponent you threaten as a move action (or every opponent within 10 feet of you), and still have a standard action for your breath attack. Maybe go Desert Half-Orc, say you visited the Otyugh Hole to get Menacing Demeanor, and use the Half-Humans variant in RoD p150 to get Dreadful Wrath as well.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Satisfying the 10+spell level lower bound on a spellcasting attribute is pretty easy. For example, you could have a wizard with Int 14 who buys appropriate Int enhancing items and never casts spells that allow a save. You'll have somewhat fewer spells/day but there are many useful spells which have no save (buff, transport, etc...).
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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Although every caster has a mental stat of some kind that they benefit from, there are some that can get away with ignoring that stat. Warlocks and Binders for example benefit from Charisma, but you can simply aim for invocations and vestiges that don't need saving throws and not be too adversely affected. Similarly, Incarnates nominally use Wisdom but can largely get away with ignoring this stat.

    Perhaps the best NAD combination for a DFA would be a Totemist; many of their soulmelds have no saves at all, and those that do use Con, which is also a useful stat for the DFA's breath weapon.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    smile Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Tainted Sorcerer allows you to use your Taint score for casting. Depending on your campaign and character flavor, this may or may not be an option.

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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel7284 View Post
    Tainted Sorcerer allows you to use your Taint score for casting. Depending on your campaign and character flavor, this may or may not be an option.
    This is true - however, Taint itself has practical limits derived from Wisdom and Constitution for most creatures, so it functions as a soft ability dependency.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    smile Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This is true - however, Taint itself has practical limits derived from Wisdom and Constitution for most creatures, so it functions as a soft ability dependency.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Sorcerer
    Taint Suppression: While a tainted sorcerer is likely to accumulate a high taint score over the course of her life, this taint is not immediately obvious to onlookers. A tainted sorcerer's taint manifests in mental effects—insanity, rage, and nightmares—and in internal physical effects. If a tainted sorcerer is split open, the character's internal corruption is obvious: Her body is full of bloody pus and strange growths, even internal limbs. If a tainted sorcerer enters a tainted area, her corruption immediately manifests externally as well. Barring these two conditions, it is impossible to detect a tainted sorcerer based on appearance. A tainted sorcerer no longer applies her taint score as a penalty to her Constitution, and only applies one-half her taint score as a penalty to her Wisdom.
    So no issues with Con anymore, but yeah, a mild dependency on Wisdom.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel7284 View Post
    Tainted Sorcerer allows you to use your Taint score for casting. Depending on your campaign and character flavor, this may or may not be an option.
    Tainted Scholar...

    Warlock is pretty much doubling up invocations and ends up being more of the same not sure if it is the best choice. Beguiler could be an interesting choice it also wants high int/cha like DFA. Bard/dread witch would be pretty cool and a powerful choice to go along with DFA like mentioned above.

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    Devil

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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    I mean, there's truenamer. Iirc, unlike pretty much every other caster, there aren't any hard power level limitations tied to ability scores. Sure, you still need a decent int to be able to cast effectively, but the mechanic still goes into play regardless of your scores. (But it's pretty terrible, so...)

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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by mabriss lethe View Post
    I mean, there's truenamer. Iirc, unlike pretty much every other caster, there aren't any hard power level limitations tied to ability scores. Sure, you still need a decent int to be able to cast effectively, but the mechanic still goes into play regardless of your scores. (But it's pretty terrible, so...)
    Given how heavily you have to scrape for Truespeak bonuses to make your checks, not maxing Int seems like a bad idea

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    In addition to Taint, Artificer is also a good option; while infusions require some Int, mostly you just need enough UMD to make whatever you want and then use it. It allows you to access all the spells in the game relatively easily, particularly if you go Unbound Scroll. DocRoc did some describing of how to make it work more or less for free (Pro Tip: Ghost Writing is basically free spells).
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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    I would caution against calling Incarnate or Totemist NAD. For both classes CON determines the maximum number of melds you can have shaped at any time (Con -10 max) in addition to the restriction leveled by the classes themselves, whichever is lower. Granted DFA is rewarded for investing in CON in the first place, but it should still be noted.
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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    The Blood of Syberis ACF for Sorcerer (Dragon 351, p79) lets you treat your Charisma as +4 points higher for maximum spell level (and spells known).

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    There’s always WS ranger 5/MOMF10/nature’s warrior 5. Not technically a caster but can duplicate a lot of casterness.

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    Default Re: Non Attribute Dependent Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    There’s always WS ranger 5/MOMF10/nature’s warrior 5. Not technically a caster but can duplicate a lot of casterness.
    This is actually a splendid point, add ASU and Greater and you've got a wealth of options at your disposal.
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