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Thread: Savage attacker oddball idea
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2019-05-20, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2019
Savage attacker oddball idea
So ive been looking around at opinions on savage attacker (feat not to be confused with half orc feature.)
Looking at some reddit posts and at a post here in playground
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...avage-Attacker
I noticed no one talks about savage attacker being once per turn (other than a stack exchange)
So with sentinel or polearm master
How does that effect the curve of minimal damage and expected damage?
Things that could trigger this
Pole arm master
Sentinel
Mage slayer
Cavalier fighter
Berserker barbarian (on turns after first bonus action attack hold action reaction attack) not as useful after hitting barb 5
Commanding strike from an ally
Any held action for an attack
I understand alot of this aren't the most optimal but I thought I'd see what everyone thinks, make the savage attacker equivalent of when rogues want to trigger sa as often as possible. Dedicate some of build to triggering it often and see how it goes
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2019-05-20, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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- Between SEA and PDX.
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Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
Weapons that people would use with Savage Attacker would normally range between 1d8 and 1d12. So we'll average it to 1d10.
A 1d10's average damage is 5.5
Savage Attacker bumps that up to 7.15.
So you're looking at about +1.65 damage per turn. Assuming you attacked on 2 separate turns, that's +3.3 damage gain per round.
Compare that with something like Polearm Master, where your modifier is +3, you're using the Bonus Action attack 100% of the time (+1d4+3), the Reaction attack 50% of the time (+[1d10+3]/2), PAM puts you at 18.25 damage per round instead of 8.5 (1d10 +3) for a +9.75 damage gain per round.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-05-20 at 02:49 PM.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
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2019-05-20, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
PAM is one of the most powerful feats in the system, and while I agree SA needs some change i think its unfair to expect it to be as good PAM.
IMO the problem with SA is twofold, on the one hand its damage increase doesn't seem that much, on the other hand, its anything but "savage" it makes attacks far less swingy which is the opposite of what I would imagine.
GWM -5/+10 is what Savage Attacker should be, but thats already used.
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2019-05-20, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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- Between SEA and PDX.
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Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
A few ideas I had:
- When you miss, you can spend your Bonus Action to attempt another attack. Doing so causes attacks against you to be made with Advantage.
- When you are missing at least half of your HP, attacks you make against adjacent creatures are made with Advantage.
- When you are reduced to 0 HP from an attack, you can first spend your Reaction to attack that creature before falling unconscious. This attack is made with Advantage, and, should it hit, it is considered a Critical Hit.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!
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2019-05-20, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
I'd either include
- the Monster's Rampage ability, which gives a bonus action attack when you kill a target
- the optional cleave rule from the DMG
Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
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2019-05-20, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2019
Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
Yes that's for average damage and assuming the bonus action isn't already being used on something else
I think the better comparison would be
Great weapon master
Savage attacker
Go to bottom for summary
Assuming both a 1d10 weapon
+6 hit
Against 14 a.c.
And
+6 hit against 18 a.c. (2 sets for gwm one without -5)
To start, dice statistics
https://anydice.com/program/15c35ummary
For one attack
Average on dice gwm(mean) 5.50
Deviation 2.87
Savage attacker
Average (mean) 7.15
Deviation 2.35
Assuming two attacks and one reaction attack
Savage attacker against a.c. 14 +6 to hit
21.052
Gwm against 14 a.c. +1 hit
25.8
Against 18 a.c. +6 to hit
Savage attacker 15.292
Gwm -5+10. 15.075
Gwm 13.575 no -5 hit +10 damage
Now calculating 2d6
https://anydice.com/program/5a4
Savage attacker against a.c. 14 (65%)
24.1195
Gwm -5+10 against a.c. 14 (40%)
27
Gwm normal
19.5
Savage attacker against a.c. 18 +6 hit
17.1125
Gwm -5+10 against 18 a.c. +1 hit
16.05
Gwm without -5+10 against 18 a.c. +6 hit
14.55
All of the above are factoring crit chance for all 3 attacks
20 gwm a hit average before %hit chance , % hit chance 25% lower.
1.35 crit damage added after % hit
Savage attacker
11.37 hit average before % hit on 2 of 3 attacks
.9465 crit damage added after % hit on 2 attacks
3rd attack and no -5+10 attack
10 average before % hit
.85 after %hit for crit
Summary
Assuming savage attacker and gwm are both using bonus action for a non attack (spell, shielding, inspiration)
And both are triggering reaction attack
With 1d10 and a 2d6 weapon savage attacker doesnt pull ahead until 50-55% chance to hit (25%-30% for gwm)
When only assuming 2 attacks (savage attacker only applying on 1) it looks like savage attack catches up at around the 45%-50% to hit (35%-45% gwm)
However at point that the gwm chooses not to use -5+10 for both attacks savage attacker takes lead.
When gwm chooses to not do -5+10 on one attack it falls behind at 70% to hit (45% for gwm)
Also I couldn't figure out how to do math for if u only use savage attacker upon rolling 1 less than average or lower
But based off the thread I originally looked at it seems to go more in favor of the savage attacker in that scenario (my guess would probably be a 5% ish favor meaning savage attacker would be better at 50-55% point)
Warning!! I've been working on this for few hours whenever I had moment thus the message I am quoting is only one that was in the post at the time
Hopefully I didn't get shadpwmonked
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2019-05-21, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
Assuming that you have one attack per turn, and therefore always use Savage Attacker, the average increase is 1.65 damage. But if you have multiple attacks, it's slightly better: You'll be choosing which attack you want to use it on, and you'll probably choose one with below-average damage. But it's difficult to model this, because you'd need in the process to determine the optimal algorithm for how to choose which attack to use it on, and even with such a model, you'd have a very branchy decision tree for calculating probabilities.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2019-05-21, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Location
- where South is East
Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
Not really.
The average of 1d10 is 5.5, if you rolled 5 or less it's worth using savage attacker. This will add (5.5 - 3)/2 ~ 1.25 expected damage.
So, if you rolled 4 your expected gain is (5.5 - 4 ~ 1.5) which is more than the 1.25 expected damage. You use your savage attacker now.
That means your first-of-two use adds (5.5 - 2.5)/3 ~ 1 expected damage and your overall savage attack gain is (5.5 - 2.5)/3 + (5.5 - 3)/2*2/3 ~ 1.83
Which means for 3 attacks with 1d10: 1st attack = use on 3, 2nd attack = use on 4, 3rd attack = use on 5.Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.
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2019-05-22, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
My current potential house rule for savage attacker:
As-is, plus
* if you bring an opponent to 0 HP, you may make a free attack at another enemy within 5 feet
* when you are at less than half your maximum HP, you may use the damage dice reroll with all your successful attacks.Avatar by the awesome Linklele!
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2019-05-22, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
Quoth bid:
The average of 1d10 is 5.5, if you rolled 5 or less it's worth using savage attacker. This will add (5.5 - 3)/2 ~ 1.25 expected damage.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2019-05-22, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Location
- where South is East
Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
Yeah, it's really that simple. Sorry to break your bubble.
Maximizing gain expectancy aint no rocket science. If on your next roll SA offers a 1.25 gain but on this roll it offers a 2.5 gain, the answer is obvious.
And on the extremely rare case that has no impact on the feat's value, you can either extend my 5 minutes job or just WAG it:
With 10 attacks, you can safely reroll 1-2 on the first 5 and then go 1-3 until the last few hits. I don't think an error of 1 damage is going to matter out of 10 attacks, I'd be way more worried about the 5-ish damage lost to overkill.Last edited by bid; 2019-05-22 at 10:04 AM.
Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.
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2019-05-23, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Savage attacker oddball idea
I have used the feat at my table, its not terrible
This is the issue, it is damage, so unless you have a max attack stat I wouldn't take it
And by the time you get a maxed stat, 8th or 12th level for some classes... you now have other feats needed and damage is not one of them.
It is also once a turn, and doesn't really mesh with fighter's extra attack
If GWM or SS did not exist, players would take this feat and think it was awesome
My recommendation is give out one night and actually see for yourself, how did this feat affect the actual battle.
Did the GWM fighter squeeze out extra BA attacks because the reroll from savage attacker dropped a foe (perhaps they took defensive style over great weapon fighting)... this does come up, need only 4 more HP to kill the BBEG or next turn they drop a big AoE or get away
Feats like GWM, PAM, & SS really make savage attacker not necessary for classes like a fighter, and even a dexterity S&B fighter should take shield master over savage attacker.
But the damage is every turn, give the feat out as blessing from some god and see how it actually performs