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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    The dungeons protecting Serini's gate were built by dwarves. The dwarves had plans. And guess where the Order are now? Yup, the dwarven kingdom. So they can get the plans from the dwarves and go straight to the gate.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    That solves ... what problem?
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Nobody just lets the plans hanging around like that.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Maybe someone in Durkon's extended family actually worked on the dungeon and can tell them how to get through it.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    The dungeons protecting Serini's gate were built by dwarves.
    [citation needed]

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-05-21 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    That solves ... what problem?
    Team Evil has no clue where the Gate actually is. It's hidden from divination, and there's hundreds of doors, leaving you with no choice but to go through those hundreds of doors one by one until you finally get the right one.

    If you've got the plans, then you know which door the Gate's hidden behind, and then you can keep Team Evil from finding it by painting a red X over it.
    Last edited by HorizonWalker; 2019-05-21 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    That only shows Dorukan's dungeon being built. And honestly, there are no non-magical parts to Kraagor's tomb - it's essentially a block of magical stone with holes in it, as far as we can tell. Not sure where dwarves would be involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    That only shows Dorukan's dungeon being built. And honestly, there are no non-magical parts to Kraagor's tomb - it's essentially a block of magical stone with holes in it, as far as we can tell. Not sure where dwarves would be involved.

    Grey Wolf
    "The pair sunk their entire fortune into building the five Gates".
    Them paying for the constructions of the defenses of the Gates (like Girard's pyramid) would defeat the point of the Oath. And the repartition of the Gates and their defenses happened later anyway.

    The Dwarves would eb involved in putting the Stone into shape before it is enchanted would be my guess.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    [citation needed]

    Grey Wolf
    It was shown in the comic which showed the dungeon being built. Which comic number was that?

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    It was shown in the comic which showed the dungeon being built. Which comic number was that?
    You're thinking of Dorukan's dungeon.
    Serini's workers were offscreen.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    It was shown in the comic which showed the dungeon being built. Which comic number was that?
    The comic showed dwarves building Dorukanís dungeon. The comic does not show dwarves building Kraagorís memorial dungeon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The comic showed dwarves building Dorukanís dungeon. The comic does not show dwarves building Kraagorís memorial dungeon.
    It wasn't that page. It was the one showing them transporting a purple worm or something and Serini saying something along the lines of "It's what Kraagor would have wanted."

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    It wasn't that page. It was the one showing them transporting a purple worm or something and Serini saying something along the lines of "It's what Kraagor would have wanted."
    It showed no dwarves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It showed no dwarves.

    Grey Wolf
    Really? Then it was one of the ones nearby. Do you have the number?

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Really? Then it was one of the ones nearby. Do you have the number?
    Wheeeeeee!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    You're thinking of Dorukan's dungeon.
    Serini's workers were offscreen.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    The gate isn't really behind any of the doors - it's inside that statue of Kraagor. During the crayon-image exposition, he was shown right up close to the rift when they cast the spell to seal it -and then we see them mourning his stone image. That statue actually is Kraagor - or at least, his petrified remains. What happened to his Dwarven soul is another question.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Assuming that Serini used dwarven workers (which granted is a likely scenario - she wants stonework done and it is a tribute to a dwarven character), that still also misses three points:

    -She'd probably want the blueprints back, and after the job the workers would have no reason to keep copies. So even if we generously assume that all dwarves involved in the construction were part of Durkon's extended family, they'd have a few vague memories instead of detailed plans. Which is nice, but not a cure-all.

    -Creating that many false entrances becomes less effective as more people know which one is the right one. Serini doesn't seem the sort to kill off workers to keep them from talking, so the next best defense would be to include a fair number of false gates in the construction. Again, a simple plan can keep the intel pretty safe.

    -Imagining for a moment that the order could learn the precise location of the gate and teleport right to it, what then? Opening the last rift would probably just encourage the gods to blow up the world faster. Xykon and Red have to be dealt with, otherwise there aren't any good options. And while actually dealing with them will be tricky, finding them won't be the hard part.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankNorman View Post
    The gate isn't really behind any of the doors - it's inside that statue of Kraagor. During the crayon-image exposition, he was shown right up close to the rift when they cast the spell to seal it -and then we see them mourning his stone image. That statue actually is Kraagor - or at least, his petrified remains. What happened to his Dwarven soul is another question.
    Petrification doesn't tend to give a free pedestal. I'm pretty sure that was a memorial they built for Kraagor after the fact.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2019-05-26 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Petrification doesn't tend to give a free pedestal. I'm pretty sure that was a memorial they built for Kraagor after the fact.
    I agree, and I also agree that the rift is concealed within.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    The dungeons protecting Serini's gate were built by dwarves. The dwarves had plans. And guess where the Order are now? Yup, the dwarven kingdom. So they can get the plans from the dwarves and go straight to the gate.
    My question is why do you assume "some dwarves built the gate" leads to "the dwarves who happen to be around this town have the plans easily available for the heroes"? Like, I wouldn't even assume the heroes know dwarves built any of the gates.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankNorman View Post
    The gate isn't really behind any of the doors - it's inside that statue of Kraagor. During the crayon-image exposition, he was shown right up close to the rift when they cast the spell to seal it -and then we see them mourning his stone image. That statue actually is Kraagor - or at least, his petrified remains. What happened to his Dwarven soul is another question.
    The issue there is that it's literally the first thing anyone will think when poised with a situation like this. From a meta-perspective, it's it is far too obvious to be an actually good twist, and from an in-universe perspective Redcloak and Xykon probably would have already checked.

    Also, the landscape where the rift is doesn't fit the position of the statue at all, so it couldn't be there, anyway.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Wheeeeeee!
    This pleases me.
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankNorman View Post
    The gate isn't really behind any of the doors - it's inside that statue of Kraagor. During the crayon-image exposition, he was shown right up close to the rift when they cast the spell to seal it -and then we see them mourning his stone image. That statue actually is Kraagor - or at least, his petrified remains. What happened to his Dwarven soul is another question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I agree, and I also agree that the rift is concealed within.
    So y'all think the Gate is completely defenseless and can be gotten to by any yahoo?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-26 at 08:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Really? Then it was one of the ones nearby. Do you have the number?
    You really don't understand how [citaiton needed] works, do you? I asked you to present the evidence for your assertion. The links I am aware of have been posted several times and do not show any dwarves working on Kraagor's tomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So y'all think the Gate is completely defenseless and can be gotten to by any yahoo?
    And that Serini disrespected Kraagor's memory by having a defence system for the gate that does NOT require brute strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    -Imagining for a moment that the order could learn the precise location of the gate and teleport right to it, what then? Opening the last rift would probably just encourage the gods to blow up the world faster. Xykon and Red have to be dealt with, otherwise there aren't any good options. And while actually dealing with them will be tricky, finding them won't be the hard part.
    I think this is the critical part, really. The Order know where Xykon and Redcloak are, because Lirian and O-Chul are spying on them. They don't need to go to the Gate, they need to go to where Team Evil is and figure out a way to defeat them before *they* happen across the gate. I'm entirely unclear on how going directly to the final Gate would help them in that aim--after all, they reached Girard's Gate before the villains did, and ended up having to destroy it, so getting there first isn't necessarily an advantage.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    The only way I could plausibly see the rift being hidden in the statue is if you have to get to the end of one of the doors to reveal that, but that doesn't prevent you just brute forcing the mechanism so it's also a bust.

    I could maybe see the statue being pivotal in revealing the true path to the gate in one of the doors though, but I'm not holding my breath on that one either.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    You really don't understand how [citaiton needed] works, do you?
    I do, actually. I can remember the page but not the number. And I'm not looking through a thousand pages to find it. You, OTOH, gave the indication of knowing it.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I do, actually. I can remember the page but not the number. And I'm not looking through a thousand pages to find it. You, OTOH, gave the indication of knowing it.
    Are you asking Grey Wolf to link you to the page showing Sereni and the Purple Worm? That has already been provided in this thread twice. Three times with this post. Why does it only count if Grey Wolf provides it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Serini's workers were offscreen.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    Are you asking Grey Wolf to link you to the page showing Sereni and the Purple Worm? That has already been provided in this thread twice. Three times with this post. Why does it only count if Grey Wolf provides it?
    That's not the one.

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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    That's not the one.
    Yes, yes it is. You seem, at this point, to be asking for me to find a strip that proves your point, when no such strip exists. You think it does? Then do your own damned work and find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Serini's / Kraagor's gate - the dwarven plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    That's not the one.
    Iomedae. Are you not reading this?

    No one can find the strip that indicates that Serini had a dungeon built by dwarves, because there is no such strip. There is one that shows the Dungeon of Dorukan being built by dwarves, which is probably what you're thinking of and has already been linked. If you remain convinced of the existence of something which doesn't exist but find it beneath you to make any effort to support it except with repetitive assertions, then the best response to "citation needed" is silence if you cannot muster a concession.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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