Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 156
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    Exactly. It's the "but for" test.

    When my Wizard casts Haste on the Rogue, allowing him to reliably Sneak Attack two times per round, half of the Rogue's damage for that fight wouldn't have occurred but for the Wizard.

    Or, how about when the Bard hits a group of enemies with Faerie Fire, which increases damage output against those enemies by around 25%? But for the Bard, that extra damage wouldn't have occurred.
    Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by darknite View Post
    Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.
    Haste Action: Attack, apply sneak
    Action: Ready an attack in someone elses turn, since its a different turn it also applies sneak

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Haste Action: Attack, apply sneak
    Action: Ready an attack in someone elses turn, since its a different turn it also applies sneak
    Ah! That works!

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by darknite View Post
    Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.
    You use the Haste action to take the attack action on your turn. You then use your regular action to ready an action to, say, attack the Fire Giant as soon as the party's fighter finishes his attack on the Fire Giant. If the conditions for Sneak Attack are met in both cases, the Rogue gets to Sneak Attack twice in a round.

    You can sneak attack only once per turn, but you can sneak attack more than once per round.

    In fact, there's probably a way to sneak attack three times during a round- sneak attack as a reaction before your turn, sneak attack as an action on your turn, and then sneak attack as a reaction after your turn ends (since reactions recharge at the beginning of your turn). I'm not 100% sure that works, though.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    You use the Haste action to take the attack action on your turn. You then use your regular action to ready an action to, say, attack the Fire Giant as soon as the party's fighter finishes his attack on the Fire Giant. If the conditions for Sneak Attack are met in both cases, the Rogue gets to Sneak Attack twice in a round.

    You can sneak attack only once per turn, but you can sneak attack more than once per round.

    In fact, there's probably a way to sneak attack three times during a round- sneak attack as a reaction before your turn, sneak attack as an action on your turn, and then sneak attack as a reaction after your turn ends (since reactions recharge at the beginning of your turn). I'm not 100% sure that works, though.
    Using that, a high level Scout could even SA 4 times in a round, since they get to SA a second time in their turn as a BA.

    There also the Cavalier's ulti, which allows for unlimited Attacks of Opportunity, but you'd be reduced to a 1d6 SA.
    Last edited by Rukelnikov; 2019-05-22 at 02:52 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I do this, and also count all damage dealt to an enemy made vulnerable or helpless through fear or similar effects as mine.
    This makes me want to make an egotistical bard who is super full of themselves, like the character Zap Branigan from Futurama or Lucy Liu's character from Ally McBeal. Half-elf would be a really good race for this. I could do them as a stuck-up noble.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ô"

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    This makes me want to make an egotistical bard who is super full of themselves, like the character Zap Branigan from Futurama or Lucy Liu's character from Ally McBeal. Half-elf would be a really good race for this. I could do them as a stuck-up noble.
    A buddy of mine played a character based on Groose from Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword in a campaign using a half-elf bard as the base. Any time he successfully hit, charmed or incapacitated someone, he would remind us that "the Groose is on the loose". It was super obnoxious, in a fun way.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Using that, a high level Scout could even SA 4 times in a round, since they get to SA a second time in their turn as a BA.

    There also the Cavalier's ulti, which allows for unlimited Attacks of Opportunity, but you'd be reduced to a 1d6 SA.
    In theory, an Arcane Trickster could use a scroll of Shapechange to become a Marilith to get arbitrarily many 10d6 Sneak Attacks per turn... but that's not exactly cost-effective.
    I like the way AD&D PCs are grounded in mythic fantasy archetypes. 5E has too much HP inflation and too few consequences... In AD&D 2nd edition, a high-level fighter can potentially fall from orbit and survive the 20d6 HP of damage (plus saving throw vs. death) that entails, and be perfectly healthy again only a few weeks later; in 5E, a 6th level wizard can fall from orbit and not only survive but be perfectly healthy again only a few hours later. I feel the AD&D way leads to better adventures.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    they are not very weak (plenty of folks before me gave examples of what they can do), but they definitely are lacking in the damage department. If combat is the main focus of your campaign, I don't wanna sell you the bard, to be honest. Even if you would like a support / heal / controll character and don't mind damage too much, I'd rather recommend a cleric (with heavy armor and shield) or Druid (shepard is great for that). Let's be fair: a Bard is really, really good with skills and had very nice utility spells, the trade off is combat abilities. If you don't use the former in your game, there's no compensation for the relative weak latter, and it simply isn't a great class for your game.
    This is hilarious.

    Bards are one of the best designed and most powerful combat classes in the game.

    Did the fighter just get targeted with hold person at the start of the fight? Luckily, you have counterspell and jack of all trades. You just got to spend a reaction to make four greatsword attacks that each do roughly (2d6 + 15) damage. If all four attacks hit, you just dealt 88 damage with your reaction and a third level spell.

    Did the party rogue just miss with his sneak attack? You got to spend a bonus action three minutes before the fight started that lets you hit with a sneak attack now (no action required) for 1d8 + 5 + 4d6 damage. You used a bonus action before the fight, when you couldn't even see the enemy and they didn't even know you existed, to deal roughly 23.5 damage to them.

    Did the party paladin just miss by a little bit with his big swing, and now he can't smite? You get to smite now, no action required, because you spent a bonus action 2 minutes ago. And you get to use his GWF fighting style, and his strength score, and you can even spend one of his 2nd level spell slots to do an extra 4d8 radiant damage to that vampire on top of your big flashy Glaive strike, so you get to deal 1d10 + 5 + 4d8 (around 28.5) damage with a bonus action you used before the fight even started).

    It's not even your freaking turn yet, and you've just done something like 140 damage with a reaction, a 3rd level slot, and two bardic inspirations you threw down before the fight started.


    Bards deal insane damage. They're almost by definition the strongest heavy hitters in any party; they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.
    The Stormwind Fallacy, Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.

    Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.

    Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa.
    Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    In theory, an Arcane Trickster could use a scroll of Shapechange to become a Marilith to get arbitrarily many 10d6 Sneak Attacks per turn... but that's not exactly cost-effective.
    Yeah, Marilith is a great shape.

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Superhero in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix042 View Post
    Bards deal insane damage. They're almost by definition the strongest heavy hitters in any party; they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.
    This is entirely different from how Athasian half-giants wield party members as weapons. Half-giant bards might be able to triple-wield party members.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    API Anthology 1 from Drivethru RPG.
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    This is entirely different from how Athasian half-giants wield party members as weapons. Half-giant bards might be able to triple-wield party members.
    This reminds me of the 2-handed dual-wielding Goblin Whacker weapon I created. It's composed of a goblin tied lengthwise to a wooden pole the player holds in both hands and in each hand the goblin is holding a smaller goblin tied lengthwise on a stick. When you swing the weapon, you have to roll an additional 2d20 to hit. Each hit is a d6 + modifier in bludgeoning damage.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ô"

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    D&D is a team sport. And character classes like Bards are the teammate that gets a lot of assists, rather than scoring goals.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    San Antonio TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix042 View Post
    ...they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.
    I build my current bard strictly as an assist machine to the rogue assassin with sharpshooter to make sure that first -5 +10 for crit hits. The bard is figuratively the puppet master. And in my case, instead of instruments, he uses puppets and spoken word.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    I build my current bard strictly as an assist machine to the rogue assassin with sharpshooter to make sure that first -5 +10 for crit hits. The bard is figuratively the puppet master. And in my case, instead of instruments, he uses puppets and spoken word.
    Walter Koeing watching William Shatner sing: "How can you do a spoken word version of a rap song?"

    Melvar: "He found a way."
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ô"

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I have never seen a bard do this and it's hard to imagine that one ever could. Vicious Mockery has pathetic damage and targets a strong save. [Kill a dragon with vicious mockery] Even ignoring legendary resistance, a 20th level bard with Cha 20 would have to cast Vicious Mockery 25 times in a row to deal the 178 HP of damage needed to kill even a Young Red Dragon, and it would take 48 castings to kill an Adult Red Dragon. Long before that happens, the dragon will have killed and eaten the bard.
    Done it. Granted, the dragon was tethered by a pair of magical chains. It was young. My bard was the only would who could do any damage to it (because of positioning). And I had also cast heat metal on the magical chains binding it. So the DM hand waved it to speed the story up (and because killing it with vicious mockery was a fun idea).

    But a non-dice rolled killing is still a killing!

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Gah! So I'd be starting off at lv. 8 or higher and will be a half-elf with 2 extra skills and maxed out Charisma and I know that Fireball would be one of the spells I'd take at Lore Bard lv. 6, but I can't decide on a second spell to take. I'm leaning towards a damaging or defensive spell and I know I do poorly as a player when it comes to illusion or enchantment spells, but beyond that I have so many possibilities that I can't decide. Any suggestions, folks? To help you help me pick, I'll most likely be casting from range and survival is very important since foes in battle tend to have high accuracy and high damage. It's been a variety of supernatural and undead creatures in the campaign from undead to werewolves to halfling mobsters to an incubus and some very powerful fey.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ô"

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Spiritual weapon? That'll give you something to do with your bonus actions if you're primarily going to be using inspiration for Cutting Words. Counterspell is just great to have available if you need it, even if it rarely comes up. You could also look at spirit guardians or aura of vitality. Haste and slow are great but you have so many concentration spells that they might step on each other.

    Edit: I know I'm a broken record here, but really try to make the enchantment stuff work for you. Fear and enemies abound can instantly win battles for you. The downside of enemies abound is that they get saves if they take damage. Or in other worse, it's a spell that you target the biggest dumbest enemy beatstick with, and every time he gets a save against your spell it's because one of his allies wasted their action doing damage to him for you. Oh, and it's got a pretty good chance of being his worst save. Setting a hill giant loose on a bunch of orcs is fantastic.
    Last edited by QuickLyRaiNbow; 2019-05-23 at 10:26 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Counterspell is usually my number 1 pick. Your Jack of All Trades class feature makes you the 2nd best user of counterspell, behind an Abjuration Wizard. It's saved my party in a lot of situations, and can help you make an escape when you absolutely need to.

    Revivify is another option, mostly because having access to resurrection at that level is useful.

    As mentioned, spirit guardians is a solid option, since it both slows down enemies in its area, and does damage each round. You have a lot of concentration effects as a Bard, though, so there's a bit of opportunity cost.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    He did say he's had a lot of undead, so that might make the concentration options more appealing. Can't cast fear on a mummy.

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    Spiritual weapon? That'll give you something to do with your bonus actions if you're primarily going to be using inspiration for Cutting Words.
    I like the idea of that. It'd up my dpr by giving me a 3rd attack per turn if I use it with Eldritch Blast (via my 2 levels of hexblade for EB + Agonizing Blast). I know it's not the best spell to take, but I used it before on my hexblade/favored soul sorc and enjoyed using it by making a sassy black woman I called 'Big Mama' who would slap my enemies. This time, however, since I'd play the character as an egotist, I'd go the narcissistic route and make it take the shape of a perfect Adonis-like version of the bard himself. :D
    Last edited by samcifer; 2019-05-23 at 11:00 PM.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ô"

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    I like the idea of that. It'd up my dpr by giving me a 3rd attack per turn if I use it with Eldritch Blast (via my 2 levels of hexblade for EB + Agonizing Blast). I know it's not the best spell to take, but I used it before on my hexblade/favored soul sorc and enjoyed using it by making a sassy black woman I called 'Big Mama' who would slap my enemies. This time, however, since I'd play the character as an egotist, I'd go the narcissistic route and make it take the shape of a perfect Adonis-like version of the bard himself. :D
    Spiritual weapon is one of the best spells in the game, at least on characters without strong bonus action competition. Itís a pretty good choice.

  23. - Top - End - #113
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Spiritual weapon is one of the best spells in the game, at least on characters without strong bonus action competition. Itís a pretty good choice.
    Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

    I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.
    I like the way AD&D PCs are grounded in mythic fantasy archetypes. 5E has too much HP inflation and too few consequences... In AD&D 2nd edition, a high-level fighter can potentially fall from orbit and survive the 20d6 HP of damage (plus saving throw vs. death) that entails, and be perfectly healthy again only a few weeks later; in 5E, a 6th level wizard can fall from orbit and not only survive but be perfectly healthy again only a few hours later. I feel the AD&D way leads to better adventures.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Chattanooga

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Command seems like a strong and thematic choice. It disrupts an enemy's action economy and causes them to waste their turn, plus some other effect, which can include disarming themselves, going prone to give Advantage on melee attacks against them, or fleeing, thus drawing Attacks of Opportunity.

    It being 1st level means you'll be able to use it often.

    It also scales well, giving a target per slot level. This is where it proves its worth in comparison to Dissonant Whispers. At 1st level, DW has the advantage of doing solid damage in addition to forced movement/potentially drawing AoO's, but upcast it's still only single target.
    Last edited by Crgaston; 2019-05-24 at 12:21 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

    I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.
    Iíd argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and thatís competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Iíd argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and thatís competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.
    I agree that Cutting Words would be better. In one battle about 3 weeks ago, I used Reckless Attack on my Barbarian from 10ft away thanks to the reach of my glaive, then retreated. The boss chased after me and did 76 damage to me (38 after my resistance) in retaliation for attacking recklessly during it's next turn. Cutting Words wouldn't help a lot against a nova turn like that, but every little bit of reduction helps, right?
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ô"

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Chattanooga

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    I agree that Cutting Words would be better. In one battle about 3 weeks ago, I used Reckless Attack on my Barbarian from 10ft away thanks to the reach of my glaive, then retreated. The boss chased after me and did 76 damage to me (38 after my resistance) in retaliation for attacking recklessly during it's next turn. Cutting Words wouldn't help a lot against a nova turn like that, but every little bit of reduction helps, right?
    If it had been used on the attack roll and turned a hit into a miss, it would have helped quite a bit.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    So everyone mentions Hexblade 2/Lore 6, but have you guys heard of the hilarity that is Archfey 1/Glamour 6?

    Charm a group of enemies and command them (one by one).
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

    On a horse cart, in a Goblin ambush.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crgaston View Post
    If it had been used on the attack roll and turned a hit into a miss, it would have helped quite a bit.
    I think it was 2 different attacks during the same turn that the boss used and the damage was all combined to make it easier to calculate and deduct from my hp.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ô"

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent-KI7KO View Post
    So everyone mentions Hexblade 2/Lore 6, but have you guys heard of the hilarity that is Archfey 1/Glamour 6?

    Charm a group of enemies and command them (one by one).
    Unfortunately, not good in a campaign with a lot of undead. Otherwise, a super fun controller
    Rule of Cool and Rules as Fun. My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •