Results 121 to 150 of 156
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2019-05-24, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
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2019-05-24, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
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2019-05-24, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2016
- Location
- Yorkshire, England
- Gender
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
@OP
I'm not sure how much of this has been said through the thread as I'm mid commute so don't have time to read it all.
I think part of this is what you value in a caster, the harder the encounters get the less a caster should be focusing on blasting imo. Martials do much more work with this, I think the real value of a caster (bards especially) comes from controlling the flow of the fights.
I'd give treantmonks guide to god wizards a read, wizard based guide but the views are still the same
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2019-05-24, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2019
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Not sure what kind of combat you like but
Fighter 4 battle master and valor bard is lots of fun
Distracting strike along with the valor bard inspiration
Or with a little effort
Bardic inspire before a fight , then distracting strike, commanding strike (if u have extra attack)
This with a rogue or a pally is really nice
I also love lore bards for how flexible they are with what you wanna do
I really enjoy lore bard mastermind
Use bonus actions for help
Use reactions for cutting words
Use action for bow and sneak attack
Or casting supportive spells
Elemental weapon is great to put on fighter pre action surge
Crusaders mantle - nice party buff if against undead or other vulnerable parties
You also have the supportive spells of haste and enhance ability
Enhance ability is nice for granting advantage to a party member while helping another
At level 6 my general 2 go to spells for the magical secrets are
Enlarge/reduce. Having both a buff or debuff in one is great, put on fighter pre action surge or on a barb so they dont have to reckless
Lightning arrow, I like this because sharpshooter and sneak attack as lightning damage is absolutely wonderful. Note only primary target takes sneak attack and sharp shooter
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2019-05-24, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2018
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
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2019-05-24, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Last edited by QuickLyRaiNbow; 2019-05-24 at 09:00 AM.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2019-05-24, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Cutting Words doesn't compete per se with Bardic Inspiration. You can use both in the same round and they do different things. Bardic Inspiration is insurance against missed GWM/Sharpshooter attacks and failed concentration saves on important spells (Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, etc.). Cutting Words boosts grapples and negates powerful enemy attacks. They're both valuable, so Spiritual Weapon is competing with another strong bonus action.
Bardic Inspiration has a short-enough duration (10 minutes) that IMO handing it out pre-combat is usually a waste unless you know you're going into a super-tough fight.
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2019-05-24, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Since Bards usually have a high-ish Dex and access to Expertise, they can make a fantastic scouting partner for a Rogue with just BI and their utility spells. If you make it a habit, it's not hard to start your average combat with one on your heaviest hitter for insurance since you'll usually be in a position to see the fight coming.
If you do plan to do that, though, I'd seriously consider Observant and/or Alert. Like a Rogue, things can go bad very fast. Unlike a Rogue, you don't have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, or Cunning Action for when you get caught mid-infiltration.
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2019-05-24, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
(1) I absolutely agree that scouting partners are vital. I've seen too many Lore Bards caught by surprise when sneaking around on their own; it's valuable to to have a Shadow Monk buddy or someone who can pick you up when you're stunned and teleport you to safety (or just carry you if the DM rules Shadow Step doesn't work on creatures you're carrying, but in the cases I witnessed I was the DM and I didn't rule that way).
(2) Even if you get caught mid-infiltration, you can still Hide. Cunning Action (Hide) is nice if you want to do something offensive and also Hide, but even just regular Action: Hide works well when you've got +10ish to Stealth from Expertise.
(3) However, if scouting is working okay, then IME BI tends to be overkill because you'll clean the bad guys' clocks anyway unless it's a non-average (uber-deadly) encounter. No harm in handing them out I guess but it tends not to happen IME because it just evaporates after 10 minutes without ever being used. BI is mostly useful when things turn out to be non-average combats, unexpectedly difficult for various reasons including scouting failure. Maybe this is a playstyle thing that would work differently at other tables, and if so maybe Spiritual Weapon would be a more attractive pick at those tables.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-24 at 12:35 PM.
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2019-05-24, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2018
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
This will probably be a very unpopular (and possibly non-optimal pick), but I chose Misty Step and Fly for magical secrets on a sharpshooting Valor bard.
Like you, I found myself in a pretty hard-hitting campaign, where even my good Dex, medium armor and shield weren't really cutting it. I was highly mobile, and liked to keep out of the front line (to keep my BC concentration spells up). But sometimes it's almost impossible to stay out of the fray, and you can get cornered and pinned down by a martial or rough monster. Misty Step saved my butt a number of times, after I picked it up. Fly was great to have and helped the party on occasion, but it was probably sub-optimal. In a DM-friendly game, Conjure Animals can be a better way to get a flying speed (giant eagles or whatever), or maybe Greater Find Steed. I might do that Fly pick a bit differently next time, but Misty Step I never regretted.
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2019-05-24, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Yeah, I'm almost tempted to take Eldritch Spear for 300ft reach on EB and just snipe from as far away as I can as most battles have taken place outdoors just to avoid being attacked. 19 AC with 67 HP just doesn't seem enough in this campaign. I'm tempted to take Toughness at Bard 8 just to give myself a chance of not being one-shot-ed.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2019-05-26, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Last edited by Skylivedk; 2019-05-26 at 07:44 AM.
I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.
My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.
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2019-05-26, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-26 at 11:44 AM.
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2019-05-26, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
As for the build, here's what the character would look like. We're using a set stat-block for our stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, & 10. We are allowed to start with one +1 item, so I think I'll go with +1 half-plate armor and a normal shield as well as a longsword as I'll be starting off as a Hexblade:
STR: 10, DEX: 16, CON: 16, INT: 10, WIS: 13, CHA: 20
Initiative: 4, AC 20, Prof Bonus: +3 Speed: 30 HP: 67, Background: Urban Bonty Hunter (for more social skills)
Leveling: Lvls 1 and 2: Hexblade, lvels 3 - 8: Lpre Bard.
Eldritch Evocations: Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear (for added range as many fights have been outdoors and we've had a few foes try to flee on us. (might re-train to Improved Pact Weapon for a boost to accuracy if I get to warlock 3 and take Pact of the blade, or switch to Lance of Lethargy to make it harder for foes to reach me)
Skill Prof: Athletics, Stealth, Arcana, Investigation, Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception *double prof), Intimidation, Persuasion (double prof).
Gear: +1 half-plate armor, Shield, Longsword (hexblade effect to use charisma instead of strength)
Warlock: 2 cantrips: Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade (in case I have to be in melee)
2 Lv. 1 spell slots, 3 spells known: Hex, Shield, and Arms of Hadar
Bard: 3 cantrips: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation and Vicious Mockery
4 lv. 1 spell slots, 3 each of lv. 2 and 3 spell slots:
Spells known: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Phantasmal Force, Shatter; Additional Magic Secrets: Spiritual Weapon and Fireball.
I know it's not the most optimal spell list, but these are spells I understand the workings of (mostly) and it would let me do more damage. I'd mostly be attacking with EB from range to minimize the risk of taking damage and using SW for a third attack per turn.Last edited by samcifer; 2019-05-26 at 12:11 PM.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2019-05-26, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Sam, I feel like you just want to do direct damage, and can’t find the value in doing anything else with spells and whatnot. And that’s fine, but I think that you’re going to be underwhelmed by the Bard still if you’re just going to try to find ways to do damage despite the fact that you’re a Bard.
Embrace the force multiplier role. Learn to see how valuable it is in the right circumstances. If you’re just going to keep trying to play the same role whatever your class is, I think that you’re going to have problems keeping an interest long-term.
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2019-05-26, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
I don't expect to be doing tons of damage. I just want to be able to do some damage while using the bard's out-of-combat abilities with his vast array of skills so I'm not waiting for the next battle like I am with my current character (a barb/fighter). I might swap in another social spell or two, but my real limitation is in not being creative enough to make good use of the 'head game' spells. I also don't really like save-or-suck spells as the monsters tend to have high stats, so I want to be doing at least a little damage per turn rather than casting a spell only to have the foes save on their saving throws and there's no result on a save. It feels like a complete waste of time to me to go that route. I also tend to have bad luck with those kind of spells as a player, so I'd rather do have damage on a save whenever possible or have a spell that lets you try again with the same spell usage on a following turn.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2019-05-26, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Well, I looked over my chosen bard spells and saw there were too many ones that needed concentration, so I re-worked it some:
L1: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, AM Secrets: Spiritual Weapon
L2: Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Zone of Truth
L3: AM Secrets: FireballLast edited by samcifer; 2019-05-26 at 03:25 PM.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2019-05-26, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
- Gender
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
My last character was a bard. The main problem I found was my really bad AC. If something decided to target me in combat with an attack I was pretty much always going to get hit. Unless you spend feats, pick certain races or multiclass there isn't really a good solution. The second problem was offensive power. Heat metal was good for single targets, while it lasted - my DM grew to hate that spell and started using enemies that it wouldn't work against. Shatter isn't a bad spell, but scales poorly compared to fireball. Magical secrets is pretty sweet, but you only get two spells each time and it is hard to cover all bases. I did take conjure animals with it which was pretty good, until my DM wanted me to swap it out since managing the extra creatures in combat was annoying him.
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2019-05-26, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
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2019-05-26, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2016
- Location
- Back home
- Gender
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2019-05-26, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
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2019-05-26, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
- Gender
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2019-05-26, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
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2019-05-28, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
- Gender
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Bards can do basically everything. Their draw is that they have so much potential.
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2019-05-29, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Actually, looking over the spell list for bards, Bane might combo well with Cutting Words.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2019-05-29, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
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2019-05-29, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
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2019-05-29, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
If protecting against enemy attacks is your goal, you'll probably get more bang for your buck from imposing disadvantage (Blindness/Deafness or Web) rather than imposing -1d4, because disadvantage tends to leave you closer to the breakpoint where Cutting Words will turn success into failure. But, Bane is a valid choice too.
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2019-05-29, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2019-05-29, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...
Whoever told you that only demons and celestials have good Cha saves is wrong. Cha is a very common saving throw proficiency for big monsters, and monsters with strong Con saves often have strong Cha saves too, so against a big monsters like an Efreet, Beholder, or Adult Red Dragon both Bane and Blindness/Deafness are inferior to Web (though Web has other potential issues against flying or teleporting enemies). For example, an Adult Red Dragon saves at +11 vs. Cha spells, and +13 vs. Con spells, but only +6 vs. Dex spells. An Efreet is +7 vs. Cha, +7 vs. Con, +1 vs. Dex. A Beholder saves at +8 vs. Cha, +4 vs. Con, +2 vs. Dex.
Oddly enough, Pit Fiends don't have Cha save proficiency, so Bane is actually kind of decent against them, if you don't have a better use for your concentration (like Banishment).Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-29 at 05:55 PM.