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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Oct 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    Unfortunately, not good in a campaign with a lot of undead. Otherwise, a super fun controller
    Undead. Not immune to Charm. With some exceptions ofc. Pity that command itself won't work, but at least its not a lost cause.
    Last edited by sophontteks; 2019-05-24 at 07:21 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    I’d argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and that’s competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.
    It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    @OP

    I'm not sure how much of this has been said through the thread as I'm mid commute so don't have time to read it all.

    I think part of this is what you value in a caster, the harder the encounters get the less a caster should be focusing on blasting imo. Martials do much more work with this, I think the real value of a caster (bards especially) comes from controlling the flow of the fights.

    I'd give treantmonks guide to god wizards a read, wizard based guide but the views are still the same

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Orc in the Playground
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    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Not sure what kind of combat you like but

    Fighter 4 battle master and valor bard is lots of fun

    Distracting strike along with the valor bard inspiration

    Or with a little effort
    Bardic inspire before a fight , then distracting strike, commanding strike (if u have extra attack)
    This with a rogue or a pally is really nice



    I also love lore bards for how flexible they are with what you wanna do


    I really enjoy lore bard mastermind

    Use bonus actions for help
    Use reactions for cutting words
    Use action for bow and sneak attack
    Or casting supportive spells

    Elemental weapon is great to put on fighter pre action surge

    Crusaders mantle - nice party buff if against undead or other vulnerable parties

    You also have the supportive spells of haste and enhance ability

    Enhance ability is nice for granting advantage to a party member while helping another



    At level 6 my general 2 go to spells for the magical secrets are
    Enlarge/reduce. Having both a buff or debuff in one is great, put on fighter pre action surge or on a barb so they dont have to reckless

    Lightning arrow, I like this because sharpshooter and sneak attack as lightning damage is absolutely wonderful. Note only primary target takes sneak attack and sharp shooter

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Orc in the Playground
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    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.
    Yeah true. I guess my point is that when you’ve got Spiritual Weapon and a resource that can be spent just as effectively if not moreso with a reaction instead of a bonus action, then worrying about bonus action competition isn’t such a big deal.

  6. - Top - End - #126
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

    I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.
    I love synaptic static but he won't have it for a while, and there are lots of other things to do with those level 5 slots.

    The other bonus action we forgot for bards is healing word; that might affect the decision to take spiritual weapon.
    Last edited by QuickLyRaiNbow; 2019-05-24 at 09:00 AM.
    In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.

  7. - Top - End - #127

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Yeah true. I guess my point is that when you’ve got Spiritual Weapon and a resource that can be spent just as effectively if not moreso with a reaction instead of a bonus action, then worrying about bonus action competition isn’t such a big deal.
    Cutting Words doesn't compete per se with Bardic Inspiration. You can use both in the same round and they do different things. Bardic Inspiration is insurance against missed GWM/Sharpshooter attacks and failed concentration saves on important spells (Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, etc.). Cutting Words boosts grapples and negates powerful enemy attacks. They're both valuable, so Spiritual Weapon is competing with another strong bonus action.

    Bardic Inspiration has a short-enough duration (10 minutes) that IMO handing it out pre-combat is usually a waste unless you know you're going into a super-tough fight.

  8. - Top - End - #128
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Cutting Words doesn't compete per se with Bardic Inspiration. You can use both in the same round and they do different things. Bardic Inspiration is insurance against missed GWM/Sharpshooter attacks and failed concentration saves on important spells (Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, etc.). Cutting Words boosts grapples and negates powerful enemy attacks. They're both valuable, so Spiritual Weapon is competing with another strong bonus action.

    Bardic Inspiration has a short-enough duration (10 minutes) that IMO handing it out pre-combat is usually a waste unless you know you're going into a super-tough fight.
    Since Bards usually have a high-ish Dex and access to Expertise, they can make a fantastic scouting partner for a Rogue with just BI and their utility spells. If you make it a habit, it's not hard to start your average combat with one on your heaviest hitter for insurance since you'll usually be in a position to see the fight coming.

    If you do plan to do that, though, I'd seriously consider Observant and/or Alert. Like a Rogue, things can go bad very fast. Unlike a Rogue, you don't have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, or Cunning Action for when you get caught mid-infiltration.

  9. - Top - End - #129

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Since Bards usually have a high-ish Dex and access to Expertise, they can make a fantastic scouting partner for a Rogue with just BI and their utility spells. If you make it a habit, it's not hard to start your average combat with one on your heaviest hitter for insurance since you'll usually be in a position to see the fight coming.

    If you do plan to do that, though, I'd seriously consider Observant and/or Alert. Like a Rogue, things can go bad very fast. Unlike a Rogue, you don't have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, or Cunning Action for when you get caught mid-infiltration.
    (1) I absolutely agree that scouting partners are vital. I've seen too many Lore Bards caught by surprise when sneaking around on their own; it's valuable to to have a Shadow Monk buddy or someone who can pick you up when you're stunned and teleport you to safety (or just carry you if the DM rules Shadow Step doesn't work on creatures you're carrying, but in the cases I witnessed I was the DM and I didn't rule that way).

    (2) Even if you get caught mid-infiltration, you can still Hide. Cunning Action (Hide) is nice if you want to do something offensive and also Hide, but even just regular Action: Hide works well when you've got +10ish to Stealth from Expertise.

    (3) However, if scouting is working okay, then IME BI tends to be overkill because you'll clean the bad guys' clocks anyway unless it's a non-average (uber-deadly) encounter. No harm in handing them out I guess but it tends not to happen IME because it just evaporates after 10 minutes without ever being used. BI is mostly useful when things turn out to be non-average combats, unexpectedly difficult for various reasons including scouting failure. Maybe this is a playstyle thing that would work differently at other tables, and if so maybe Spiritual Weapon would be a more attractive pick at those tables.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-24 at 12:35 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Gah! So I'd be starting off at lv. 8 or higher and will be a half-elf with 2 extra skills and maxed out Charisma and I know that Fireball would be one of the spells I'd take at Lore Bard lv. 6, but I can't decide on a second spell to take. I'm leaning towards a damaging or defensive spell and I know I do poorly as a player when it comes to illusion or enchantment spells, but beyond that I have so many possibilities that I can't decide. Any suggestions, folks? To help you help me pick, I'll most likely be casting from range and survival is very important since foes in battle tend to have high accuracy and high damage. It's been a variety of supernatural and undead creatures in the campaign from undead to werewolves to halfling mobsters to an incubus and some very powerful fey.
    This will probably be a very unpopular (and possibly non-optimal pick), but I chose Misty Step and Fly for magical secrets on a sharpshooting Valor bard.

    Like you, I found myself in a pretty hard-hitting campaign, where even my good Dex, medium armor and shield weren't really cutting it. I was highly mobile, and liked to keep out of the front line (to keep my BC concentration spells up). But sometimes it's almost impossible to stay out of the fray, and you can get cornered and pinned down by a martial or rough monster. Misty Step saved my butt a number of times, after I picked it up. Fly was great to have and helped the party on occasion, but it was probably sub-optimal. In a DM-friendly game, Conjure Animals can be a better way to get a flying speed (giant eagles or whatever), or maybe Greater Find Steed. I might do that Fly pick a bit differently next time, but Misty Step I never regretted.

  11. - Top - End - #131
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Lombard-O View Post
    This will probably be a very unpopular (and possibly non-optimal pick), but I chose Misty Step and Fly for magical secrets on a sharpshooting Valor bard.

    Like you, I found myself in a pretty hard-hitting campaign, where even my good Dex, medium armor and shield weren't really cutting it. I was highly mobile, and liked to keep out of the front line (to keep my BC concentration spells up). But sometimes it's almost impossible to stay out of the fray, and you can get cornered and pinned down by a martial or rough monster. Misty Step saved my butt a number of times, after I picked it up. Fly was great to have and helped the party on occasion, but it was probably sub-optimal. In a DM-friendly game, Conjure Animals can be a better way to get a flying speed (giant eagles or whatever), or maybe Greater Find Steed. I might do that Fly pick a bit differently next time, but Misty Step I never regretted.
    Yeah, I'm almost tempted to take Eldritch Spear for 300ft reach on EB and just snipe from as far away as I can as most battles have taken place outdoors just to avoid being attacked. 19 AC with 67 HP just doesn't seem enough in this campaign. I'm tempted to take Toughness at Bard 8 just to give myself a chance of not being one-shot-ed.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Yeah, I'm almost tempted to take Eldritch Spear for 300ft reach on EB and just snipe from as far away as I can as most battles have taken place outdoors just to avoid being attacked. 19 AC with 67 HP just doesn't seem enough in this campaign. I'm tempted to take Toughness at Bard 8 just to give myself a chance of not being one-shot-ed.

    Rather take Inspiring Leader. It's much much better; both for you and for your team mates.
    Last edited by Skylivedk; 2019-05-26 at 07:44 AM.
    I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.

    My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

  13. - Top - End - #133

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    Rather take Inspiring Leader. It's much much better; both for you and for your team mates.
    They don't compete for the same resource (invocation vs. feat) so you could take both.

    Edit: oh! You meant Inspiring Leader instead of Tough. Sorry, I get it now. Completely agree, Inspiring Leader >> Tough.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-26 at 11:44 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #134
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.
    As for the build, here's what the character would look like. We're using a set stat-block for our stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, & 10. We are allowed to start with one +1 item, so I think I'll go with +1 half-plate armor and a normal shield as well as a longsword as I'll be starting off as a Hexblade:

    STR: 10, DEX: 16, CON: 16, INT: 10, WIS: 13, CHA: 20

    Initiative: 4, AC 20, Prof Bonus: +3 Speed: 30 HP: 67, Background: Urban Bonty Hunter (for more social skills)

    Leveling: Lvls 1 and 2: Hexblade, lvels 3 - 8: Lpre Bard.

    Eldritch Evocations: Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear (for added range as many fights have been outdoors and we've had a few foes try to flee on us. (might re-train to Improved Pact Weapon for a boost to accuracy if I get to warlock 3 and take Pact of the blade, or switch to Lance of Lethargy to make it harder for foes to reach me)

    Skill Prof: Athletics, Stealth, Arcana, Investigation, Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception *double prof), Intimidation, Persuasion (double prof).

    Gear: +1 half-plate armor, Shield, Longsword (hexblade effect to use charisma instead of strength)

    Warlock: 2 cantrips: Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade (in case I have to be in melee)
    2 Lv. 1 spell slots, 3 spells known: Hex, Shield, and Arms of Hadar

    Bard: 3 cantrips: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation and Vicious Mockery

    4 lv. 1 spell slots, 3 each of lv. 2 and 3 spell slots:
    Spells known: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Phantasmal Force, Shatter; Additional Magic Secrets: Spiritual Weapon and Fireball.

    I know it's not the most optimal spell list, but these are spells I understand the workings of (mostly) and it would let me do more damage. I'd mostly be attacking with EB from range to minimize the risk of taking damage and using SW for a third attack per turn.
    Last edited by samcifer; 2019-05-26 at 12:11 PM.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  15. - Top - End - #135
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Sam, I feel like you just want to do direct damage, and can’t find the value in doing anything else with spells and whatnot. And that’s fine, but I think that you’re going to be underwhelmed by the Bard still if you’re just going to try to find ways to do damage despite the fact that you’re a Bard.

    Embrace the force multiplier role. Learn to see how valuable it is in the right circumstances. If you’re just going to keep trying to play the same role whatever your class is, I think that you’re going to have problems keeping an interest long-term.

  16. - Top - End - #136
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    Sam, I feel like you just want to do direct damage, and can’t find the value in doing anything else with spells and whatnot. And that’s fine, but I think that you’re going to be underwhelmed by the Bard still if you’re just going to try to find ways to do damage despite the fact that you’re a Bard.

    Embrace the force multiplier role. Learn to see how valuable it is in the right circumstances. If you’re just going to keep trying to play the same role whatever your class is, I think that you’re going to have problems keeping an interest long-term.
    I don't expect to be doing tons of damage. I just want to be able to do some damage while using the bard's out-of-combat abilities with his vast array of skills so I'm not waiting for the next battle like I am with my current character (a barb/fighter). I might swap in another social spell or two, but my real limitation is in not being creative enough to make good use of the 'head game' spells. I also don't really like save-or-suck spells as the monsters tend to have high stats, so I want to be doing at least a little damage per turn rather than casting a spell only to have the foes save on their saving throws and there's no result on a save. It feels like a complete waste of time to me to go that route. I also tend to have bad luck with those kind of spells as a player, so I'd rather do have damage on a save whenever possible or have a spell that lets you try again with the same spell usage on a following turn.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  17. - Top - End - #137
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Well, I looked over my chosen bard spells and saw there were too many ones that needed concentration, so I re-worked it some:

    L1: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, AM Secrets: Spiritual Weapon

    L2: Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Zone of Truth

    L3: AM Secrets: Fireball
    Last edited by samcifer; 2019-05-26 at 03:25 PM.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  18. - Top - End - #138
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    My last character was a bard. The main problem I found was my really bad AC. If something decided to target me in combat with an attack I was pretty much always going to get hit. Unless you spend feats, pick certain races or multiclass there isn't really a good solution. The second problem was offensive power. Heat metal was good for single targets, while it lasted - my DM grew to hate that spell and started using enemies that it wouldn't work against. Shatter isn't a bad spell, but scales poorly compared to fireball. Magical secrets is pretty sweet, but you only get two spells each time and it is hard to cover all bases. I did take conjure animals with it which was pretty good, until my DM wanted me to swap it out since managing the extra creatures in combat was annoying him.

  19. - Top - End - #139
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhippet View Post
    My last character was a bard. The main problem I found was my really bad AC. If something decided to target me in combat with an attack I was pretty much always going to get hit. Unless you spend feats, pick certain races or multiclass there isn't really a good solution. The second problem was offensive power. Heat metal was good for single targets, while it lasted - my DM grew to hate that spell and started using enemies that it wouldn't work against. Shatter isn't a bad spell, but scales poorly compared to fireball. Magical secrets is pretty sweet, but you only get two spells each time and it is hard to cover all bases. I did take conjure animals with it which was pretty good, until my DM wanted me to swap it out since managing the extra creatures in combat was annoying him.
    In my group the summoner controls the conjured animals. Your dm sound(s/ed) like a bit of a jerk to me.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Well, I looked over my chosen bard spells and saw there were too many ones that needed concentration, so I re-worked it some:

    L1: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, AM Secrets: Spiritual Weapon

    L2: Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Zone of Truth

    L3: AM Secrets: Fireball
    Isn’t spiritual weapon a level 2 spell?
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    See, I remember the days of roleplaying before organisms could even see, let alone use see as a metaphor for comprehension. We could barely comprehend that we could comprehend things. Imagining we were something else was a huge leap forward and really passed the time in between absorbing nutrients.

    Biggest play I ever made: "I want to eat something over there." Anticipated the trope of "being able to move" that you see in all stories these days.

  21. - Top - End - #141
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Potato_Priest View Post
    Isn’t spiritual weapon a level 2 spell?
    Ah, yeah, it is. Thanks for catching that.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  22. - Top - End - #142
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    In my group the summoner controls the conjured animals. Your dm sound(s/ed) like a bit of a jerk to me.
    I was in control of them, but the DM didn't like all the extra creatures in the initiative order.

  23. - Top - End - #143
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhippet View Post
    I was in control of them, but the DM didn't like all the extra creatures in the initiative order.
    Well we also had the creatures all take their turn together right after the summoner did so initiative wasn't broken up too much.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Bards can do basically everything. Their draw is that they have so much potential.

  25. - Top - End - #145
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Actually, looking over the spell list for bards, Bane might combo well with Cutting Words.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  26. - Top - End - #146

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Actually, looking over the spell list for bards, Bane might combo well with Cutting Words.
    Maybe you already know this, but remember that Cutting Words cannot help you land Bane--Cutting Words doesn't affect saves.

  27. - Top - End - #147
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Maybe you already know this, but remember that Cutting Words cannot help you land Bane--Cutting Words doesn't affect saves.
    I mean after Bane takes effect, allowing me to reduce an enemy attack or damage roll by 1d4 + 1d8.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  28. - Top - End - #148

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    I mean after Bane takes effect, allowing me to reduce an enemy attack or damage roll by 1d4 + 1d8.
    If protecting against enemy attacks is your goal, you'll probably get more bang for your buck from imposing disadvantage (Blindness/Deafness or Web) rather than imposing -1d4, because disadvantage tends to leave you closer to the breakpoint where Cutting Words will turn success into failure. But, Bane is a valid choice too.

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    If protecting against enemy attacks is your goal, you'll probably get more bang for your buck from imposing disadvantage (Blindness/Deafness or Web) rather than imposing -1d4, because disadvantage tends to leave you closer to the breakpoint where Cutting Words will turn success into failure. But, Bane is a valid choice too.
    I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  30. - Top - End - #150

    Default Re: Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).
    Whoever told you that only demons and celestials have good Cha saves is wrong. Cha is a very common saving throw proficiency for big monsters, and monsters with strong Con saves often have strong Cha saves too, so against a big monsters like an Efreet, Beholder, or Adult Red Dragon both Bane and Blindness/Deafness are inferior to Web (though Web has other potential issues against flying or teleporting enemies). For example, an Adult Red Dragon saves at +11 vs. Cha spells, and +13 vs. Con spells, but only +6 vs. Dex spells. An Efreet is +7 vs. Cha, +7 vs. Con, +1 vs. Dex. A Beholder saves at +8 vs. Cha, +4 vs. Con, +2 vs. Dex.

    Oddly enough, Pit Fiends don't have Cha save proficiency, so Bane is actually kind of decent against them, if you don't have a better use for your concentration (like Banishment).
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-29 at 05:55 PM.

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