Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

[darknite]

Exactly. It's the "but for" test.

When my Wizard casts Haste on the Rogue, allowing him to reliably Sneak Attack two times per round, half of the Rogue's damage for that fight wouldn't have occurred but for the Wizard.

Or, how about when the Bard hits a group of enemies with Faerie Fire, which increases damage output against those enemies by around 25%? But for the Bard, that extra damage wouldn't have occurred.

Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.

[Rukelnikov]

Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.

Haste Action: Attack, apply sneak
Action: Ready an attack in someone elses turn, since its a different turn it also applies sneak

[darknite]

Haste Action: Attack, apply sneak
Action: Ready an attack in someone elses turn, since its a different turn it also applies sneak

Ah! That works!

[Hail Tempus]

Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.

You use the Haste action to take the attack action on your turn. You then use your regular action to ready an action to, say, attack the Fire Giant as soon as the party's fighter finishes his attack on the Fire Giant. If the conditions for Sneak Attack are met in both cases, the Rogue gets to Sneak Attack twice in a round.

You can sneak attack only once per turn, but you can sneak attack more than once per round.

In fact, there's probably a way to sneak attack three times during a round- sneak attack as a reaction before your turn, sneak attack as an action on your turn, and then sneak attack as a reaction after your turn ends (since reactions recharge at the beginning of your turn). I'm not 100% sure that works, though.

[Rukelnikov]

You use the Haste action to take the attack action on your turn. You then use your regular action to ready an action to, say, attack the Fire Giant as soon as the party's fighter finishes his attack on the Fire Giant. If the conditions for Sneak Attack are met in both cases, the Rogue gets to Sneak Attack twice in a round.

You can sneak attack only once per turn, but you can sneak attack more than once per round.

In fact, there's probably a way to sneak attack three times during a round- sneak attack as a reaction before your turn, sneak attack as an action on your turn, and then sneak attack as a reaction after your turn ends (since reactions recharge at the beginning of your turn). I'm not 100% sure that works, though.

Using that, a high level Scout could even SA 4 times in a round, since they get to SA a second time in their turn as a BA.

There also the Cavalier's ulti, which allows for unlimited Attacks of Opportunity, but you'd be reduced to a 1d6 SA.

[samcifer]

I do this, and also count all damage dealt to an enemy made vulnerable or helpless through fear or similar effects as mine.

This makes me want to make an egotistical bard who is super full of themselves, like the character Zap Branigan from Futurama or Lucy Liu's character from Ally McBeal. Half-elf would be a really good race for this. I could do them as a stuck-up noble.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

This makes me want to make an egotistical bard who is super full of themselves, like the character Zap Branigan from Futurama or Lucy Liu's character from Ally McBeal. Half-elf would be a really good race for this. I could do them as a stuck-up noble.

A buddy of mine played a character based on Groose from Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword in a campaign using a half-elf bard as the base. Any time he successfully hit, charmed or incapacitated someone, he would remind us that "the Groose is on the loose". It was super obnoxious, in a fun way.

[MaxWilson]

Using that, a high level Scout could even SA 4 times in a round, since they get to SA a second time in their turn as a BA.

There also the Cavalier's ulti, which allows for unlimited Attacks of Opportunity, but you'd be reduced to a 1d6 SA.

In theory, an Arcane Trickster could use a scroll of Shapechange to become a Marilith to get arbitrarily many 10d6 Sneak Attacks per turn... but that's not exactly cost-effective.

[Phoenix042]

they are not very weak (plenty of folks before me gave examples of what they can do), but they definitely are lacking in the damage department. If combat is the main focus of your campaign, I don't wanna sell you the bard, to be honest. Even if you would like a support / heal / controll character and don't mind damage too much, I'd rather recommend a cleric (with heavy armor and shield) or Druid (shepard is great for that). Let's be fair: a Bard is really, really good with skills and had very nice utility spells, the trade off is combat abilities. If you don't use the former in your game, there's no compensation for the relative weak latter, and it simply isn't a great class for your game.

This is hilarious.

Bards are one of the best designed and most powerful combat classes in the game.

Did the fighter just get targeted with hold person at the start of the fight? Luckily, you have counterspell and jack of all trades. You just got to spend a reaction to make four greatsword attacks that each do roughly (2d6 + 15) damage. If all four attacks hit, you just dealt 88 damage with your reaction and a third level spell.

Did the party rogue just miss with his sneak attack? You got to spend a bonus action three minutes before the fight started that lets you hit with a sneak attack now (no action required) for 1d8 + 5 + 4d6 damage. You used a bonus action before the fight, when you couldn't even see the enemy and they didn't even know you existed, to deal roughly 23.5 damage to them.

Did the party paladin just miss by a little bit with his big swing, and now he can't smite? You get to smite now, no action required, because you spent a bonus action 2 minutes ago. And you get to use his GWF fighting style, and his strength score, and you can even spend one of his 2nd level spell slots to do an extra 4d8 radiant damage to that vampire on top of your big flashy Glaive strike, so you get to deal 1d10 + 5 + 4d8 (around 28.5) damage with a bonus action you used before the fight even started).

It's not even your freaking turn yet, and you've just done something like 140 damage with a reaction, a 3rd level slot, and two bardic inspirations you threw down before the fight started.


Bards deal insane damage. They're almost by definition the strongest heavy hitters in any party; they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.

[Rukelnikov]

In theory, an Arcane Trickster could use a scroll of Shapechange to become a Marilith to get arbitrarily many 10d6 Sneak Attacks per turn... but that's not exactly cost-effective.

Yeah, Marilith is a great shape.

[LibraryOgre]

Bards deal insane damage. They're almost by definition the strongest heavy hitters in any party; they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.

This is entirely different from how Athasian half-giants wield party members as weapons. Half-giant bards might be able to triple-wield party members.

[samcifer]

This is entirely different from how Athasian half-giants wield party members as weapons. Half-giant bards might be able to triple-wield party members.

This reminds me of the 2-handed dual-wielding Goblin Whacker weapon I created. It's composed of a goblin tied lengthwise to a wooden pole the player holds in both hands and in each hand the goblin is holding a smaller goblin tied lengthwise on a stick. When you swing the weapon, you have to roll an additional 2d20 to hit. Each hit is a d6 + modifier in bludgeoning damage.

[Hail Tempus]

D&D is a team sport. And character classes like Bards are the teammate that gets a lot of assists, rather than scoring goals.

[Kurt Kurageous]

...they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.

I build my current bard strictly as an assist machine to the rogue assassin with sharpshooter to make sure that first -5 +10 for crit hits. The bard is figuratively the puppet master. And in my case, instead of instruments, he uses puppets and spoken word.

[samcifer]

I build my current bard strictly as an assist machine to the rogue assassin with sharpshooter to make sure that first -5 +10 for crit hits. The bard is figuratively the puppet master. And in my case, instead of instruments, he uses puppets and spoken word.

Walter Koeing watching William Shatner sing: "How can you do a spoken word version of a rap song?"

Melvar: "He found a way."

[xroads]

I have never seen a bard do this and it's hard to imagine that one ever could. Vicious Mockery has pathetic damage and targets a strong save. [Kill a dragon with vicious mockery] Even ignoring legendary resistance, a 20th level bard with Cha 20 would have to cast Vicious Mockery 25 times in a row to deal the 178 HP of damage needed to kill even a Young Red Dragon, and it would take 48 castings to kill an Adult Red Dragon. Long before that happens, the dragon will have killed and eaten the bard.

Done it. Granted, the dragon was tethered by a pair of magical chains. It was young. My bard was the only would who could do any damage to it (because of positioning). And I had also cast heat metal on the magical chains binding it. So the DM hand waved it to speed the story up (and because killing it with vicious mockery was a fun idea).

But a non-dice rolled killing is still a killing!

[samcifer]

Gah! So I'd be starting off at lv. 8 or higher and will be a half-elf with 2 extra skills and maxed out Charisma and I know that Fireball would be one of the spells I'd take at Lore Bard lv. 6, but I can't decide on a second spell to take. I'm leaning towards a damaging or defensive spell and I know I do poorly as a player when it comes to illusion or enchantment spells, but beyond that I have so many possibilities that I can't decide. Any suggestions, folks? To help you help me pick, I'll most likely be casting from range and survival is very important since foes in battle tend to have high accuracy and high damage. It's been a variety of supernatural and undead creatures in the campaign from undead to werewolves to halfling mobsters to an incubus and some very powerful fey.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Spiritual weapon? That'll give you something to do with your bonus actions if you're primarily going to be using inspiration for Cutting Words. Counterspell is just great to have available if you need it, even if it rarely comes up. You could also look at spirit guardians or aura of vitality. Haste and slow are great but you have so many concentration spells that they might step on each other.

Edit: I know I'm a broken record here, but really try to make the enchantment stuff work for you. Fear and enemies abound can instantly win battles for you. The downside of enemies abound is that they get saves if they take damage. Or in other worse, it's a spell that you target the biggest dumbest enemy beatstick with, and every time he gets a save against your spell it's because one of his allies wasted their action doing damage to him for you. Oh, and it's got a pretty good chance of being his worst save. Setting a hill giant loose on a bunch of orcs is fantastic.

[OutOfThyme]

Counterspell is usually my number 1 pick. Your Jack of All Trades class feature makes you the 2nd best user of counterspell, behind an Abjuration Wizard. It's saved my party in a lot of situations, and can help you make an escape when you absolutely need to.

Revivify is another option, mostly because having access to resurrection at that level is useful.

As mentioned, spirit guardians is a solid option, since it both slows down enemies in its area, and does damage each round. You have a lot of concentration effects as a Bard, though, so there's a bit of opportunity cost.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

He did say he's had a lot of undead, so that might make the concentration options more appealing. Can't cast fear on a mummy.

[samcifer]

Spiritual weapon? That'll give you something to do with your bonus actions if you're primarily going to be using inspiration for Cutting Words.

I like the idea of that. It'd up my dpr by giving me a 3rd attack per turn if I use it with Eldritch Blast (via my 2 levels of hexblade for EB + Agonizing Blast). I know it's not the best spell to take, but I used it before on my hexblade/favored soul sorc and enjoyed using it by making a sassy black woman I called 'Big Mama' who would slap my enemies. This time, however, since I'd play the character as an egotist, I'd go the narcissistic route and make it take the shape of a perfect Adonis-like version of the bard himself. :D

[BarneyBent]

I like the idea of that. It'd up my dpr by giving me a 3rd attack per turn if I use it with Eldritch Blast (via my 2 levels of hexblade for EB + Agonizing Blast). I know it's not the best spell to take, but I used it before on my hexblade/favored soul sorc and enjoyed using it by making a sassy black woman I called 'Big Mama' who would slap my enemies. This time, however, since I'd play the character as an egotist, I'd go the narcissistic route and make it take the shape of a perfect Adonis-like version of the bard himself. :D

Spiritual weapon is one of the best spells in the game, at least on characters without strong bonus action competition. It’s a pretty good choice.

[MaxWilson]

Spiritual weapon is one of the best spells in the game, at least on characters without strong bonus action competition. It’s a pretty good choice.

Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.

[Crgaston]

Command seems like a strong and thematic choice. It disrupts an enemy's action economy and causes them to waste their turn, plus some other effect, which can include disarming themselves, going prone to give Advantage on melee attacks against them, or fleeing, thus drawing Attacks of Opportunity.

It being 1st level means you'll be able to use it often.

It also scales well, giving a target per slot level. This is where it proves its worth in comparison to Dissonant Whispers. At 1st level, DW has the advantage of doing solid damage in addition to forced movement/potentially drawing AoO's, but upcast it's still only single target.

[BarneyBent]

Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.

I’d argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and that’s competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.

[samcifer]

I’d argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and that’s competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.

I agree that Cutting Words would be better. In one battle about 3 weeks ago, I used Reckless Attack on my Barbarian from 10ft away thanks to the reach of my glaive, then retreated. The boss chased after me and did 76 damage to me (38 after my resistance) in retaliation for attacking recklessly during it's next turn. Cutting Words wouldn't help a lot against a nova turn like that, but every little bit of reduction helps, right?

[Crgaston]

I agree that Cutting Words would be better. In one battle about 3 weeks ago, I used Reckless Attack on my Barbarian from 10ft away thanks to the reach of my glaive, then retreated. The boss chased after me and did 76 damage to me (38 after my resistance) in retaliation for attacking recklessly during it's next turn. Cutting Words wouldn't help a lot against a nova turn like that, but every little bit of reduction helps, right?

If it had been used on the attack roll and turned a hit into a miss, it would have helped quite a bit.

[Agent-KI7KO]

So everyone mentions Hexblade 2/Lore 6, but have you guys heard of the hilarity that is Archfey 1/Glamour 6?

Charm a group of enemies and command them (one by one).

[samcifer]

If it had been used on the attack roll and turned a hit into a miss, it would have helped quite a bit.

I think it was 2 different attacks during the same turn that the boss used and the damage was all combined to make it easier to calculate and deduct from my hp.

[Skylivedk]

So everyone mentions Hexblade 2/Lore 6, but have you guys heard of the hilarity that is Archfey 1/Glamour 6?

Charm a group of enemies and command them (one by one).

Unfortunately, not good in a campaign with a lot of undead. Otherwise, a super fun controller