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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Thor's current method also doesn't require any deception at all. If "involves no deception" is a desired characteristic, Thor is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Loki, on the other hand, is, but blaming Thor because Loki is a manipulator is, honestly, a bit strange.
    This.

    Agreeing to Loki's great idea for a bet was something both Hel and Thor would inevitably regret. That Hel regretted it almost immediately is primarily due to her own lack of insight. But Thor screwed up, too. Let's keep in mind that the world could easily face a sudden apocalypse is only a reveal to us some hundreds of strips ago. Thor has seen it happen about a million times, so it should not have been some weird loophole in the eyes of the gods when weighing to pros and cons of a bet.

    Loki screwed everyone. Do we expect Loki to feel ashamed of himself over it?

    We can theorize that it would be "nice" or "just" for Thor to realize that the bet was really going all his way on paper, it was weird and unjust to some dwarves, and perhaps he should let Hel back out. But we lack an understanding of whether that is the kind of god Thor really is, or if gods can even back out of such bets if they wanted to .

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    This.

    Agreeing to Loki's great idea for a bet was something both Hel and Thor would inevitably regret. That Hel regretted it almost immediately is primarily due to her own lack of insight. But Thor screwed up, too. Let's keep in mind that the world could easily face a sudden apocalypse is only a reveal to us some hundreds of strips ago. Thor has seen it happen about a million times, so it should not have been some weird loophole in the eyes of the gods when weighing to pros and cons of a bet.

    Loki screwed everyone. Do we expect Loki to feel ashamed of himself over it?

    We can theorize that it would be "nice" or "just" for Thor to realize that the bet was really going all his way on paper, it was weird and unjust to some dwarves, and perhaps he should let Hel back out. But we lack an understanding of whether that is the kind of god Thor really is, or if gods can even back out of such bets if they wanted to .
    That's one of the things we don't know: is it possible to back out from the bet? I mean, they could agree the bet is unfair, and say "this is over, no one gets the prize", but would it change the universal laws (aka Houserules defined in the begining of this campaign) that establish that "Living beings can't be Clerics of Hel" and "All dwarves go to Hel, except for those who die with honor."? As far as we know, the way a world works must be woven during its creation, so maybe the rules about Hel's Clerics and dwarves can only be changed in the creation of a new world.
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    That's one of the things we don't know: is it possible to back out from the bet?
    I highly doubt Hel would be voluntarily wasting away after well over a thousand years if it was possible to back out.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I highly doubt Hel would be voluntarily wasting away after well over a thousand years if it was possible to back out.
    Or that Thor would be voluntarily letting innocent dwarves go to Hel.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-05-29 at 12:53 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Or that Thor would be voluntarily letting innocent dwarves got to Hel.
    Well now I feel like a bad person for not thinking of that in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    If it is not possible to back out of the bet, then there's another calculus that Thor, and all the other anti-destruction gods have made: it is worth certainly damning an endless number of dwarves to Hel, and sacrificing Hel's health and sanity forevermore, in order to avoid the risk that the Dark One will not survive the transition to the next world.

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    You, who have nothing at all to believe in; to you, whose motto is "money comes first;" who are you, to tell us that our lives have been wasted? That all that we've fought for has turned into dust?

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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Or that Thor would be voluntarily letting innocent dwarves go to Hel.
    That is one of the key areas we do not understand: what does Thor really think about the results of the bet?

    Because I do wonder if a purely numerical advantage in number of souls is the primary measure. Is it really all about the quantity of juice from the soul batteries? It could be. But there are other options.

    A god with significant positive moral views might not want the most souls on a technicality. Might not a god keenly feel the loss of a good soul to Hel that was a good egg, but was went to her on a technicality? And, hypothetically speaking, would someone like Belkar fit well on the Celestial Mountain, if he were to get put there on a technicality? Would it ever be a good thing for him? Or for Celestia?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Dwarves don’t go anywhere on a technicality. They get the usual deal of plane of alignment or residence of deity of choice when they die honorably.
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  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Dwarves don’t go anywhere on a technicality. They get the usual deal of plane of alignment or residence of deity of choice when they die honorably.
    As an idle speculation, I wonder if the bet is screwing with the nutrient balance for other gods as well.

    The gods who lay some claim to “honor” like Odin and Thor probably benefit, but gods like Loki must get screwed.

    Hilgya has some weird notion that living dishonorably for Loki is somehow honorable, but I question her judgment. It seems like worshipping Loki is a risk that few dwarves would take. Who wants to take the bet that Loki is actually going to keep his word and pluck you away from Hel when you die dishonorably for Loki?

    I can see Hilgya’s entreaties after death now: “but you see, it was actually honorable for me to get crossbowed to death by my own family and the dwarven mafia for rigging a cube race. Because, you see, I worshipped you Loki, and that’s what you would have done.”

    And I can see Loki’s response to Hilgya: “Ha ha. Sucker! I tricked you into dishonor. Say hi to my creepy daughter.”

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    And I can see Loki’s response to Hilgya: “Ha ha. Sucker! I tricked you into dishonor. Say hi to my creepy daughter.”
    I wouldn't call that Loki tricking Hilgya, but rather Hilgya putting blinders on herself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I wouldn't call that Loki tricking Hilgya, but rather Hilgya putting blinders on herself.
    Which is not to say that Loki definitely wouldn't claim credit for her delusions.
    You, who have nothing at all to believe in; to you, whose motto is "money comes first;" who are you, to tell us that our lives have been wasted? That all that we've fought for has turned into dust?

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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    As an idle speculation, I wonder if the bet is screwing with the nutrient balance for other gods as well.

    The gods who lay some claim to “honor” like Odin and Thor probably benefit, but gods like Loki must get screwed.
    Why? While Thor spends so much time focusing on dwarves, he can focus on the humans. The Church Loki is a major player in Greysky City.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I can see Hilgya’s entreaties after death now: “but you see, it was actually honorable for me to get crossbowed to death by my own family and the dwarven mafia for rigging a cube race. Because, you see, I worshipped you Loki, and that’s what you would have done.”

    And I can see Loki’s response to Hilgya: “Ha ha. Sucker! I tricked you into dishonor. Say hi to my creepy daughter.”
    Why would Loki refuse souls?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-05-29 at 05:23 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    For Teh Lulz.

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    For Teh Lulz.
    yez becoz loki iz funny.
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