OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

Though I do think that perhaps a vampire attending the latest vote could get cold feet and reject hels orders out of self preservation, not out of spite or anything of that nature. Vampires are supposed to be some what self serving abominations after all, and a god asking me to essentially kill myself in a world destroying cataclysm where my spirit is sent to the negative energy realm and supposedly destroyed does not sound ideal for a vampire who's sole perk is that they are immortal unless slain or killed by the sun.

well, its not the sole perk, but you get what I mean.

I think it's been pretty clear that the vampires would Gate (or whatever, I don't know D&D mechanics well and I'm not looking up the spells) themselves over to Hel's domain, then perhaps return to the next world to go nuts.

[Peelee]

I think it's been pretty clear that the vampires would Gate (or whatever, I don't know D&D mechanics well and I'm not looking up the spells) themselves over to Hel's domain, then perhaps return to the next world to go nuts.

Not a problem, you have the PYOSRD!

Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: See text
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

[drazen]

This seems like a high water mark for Belkar and emotional maturity. Not a high bar, but still I know plenty of RPG groups that don't get as far as he has.

I thought it illustrated his ongoing confusion with dealing with emotions he never had before. He described what Durkon did as "emotioning" (not emoting) and I got the sense this was used a bit sarcastically. Also, his suggestion to the Spirit of Original Gontor to simply "Feel at {the vampire}" lacks a lot of nuance.

The vampire was specifically trying to impersonate Durkon, which muddled up the personality a bit. Durkon first had to make the vampire feel something that fit the hole in his heart the vampire was built for, then show him a particular memory about that, and then launch the memory dump -- specifically a lifetime of positive memories of love, affection, and cooperation. I wouldn't even say that Durkon relied on feeling at the vampire really hard, but rather inundated it with a lifetime of memories of a particular feeling - the feeling that made him Durkon in the first place.

Personally I don't care for such Power of Love tropes, but from reading the author's comments on it, there were some particulars in this one, and the Giant suggested it would be difficult to impossible for another trapped soul to pull off the same thing. I am not sure if we got another answer as to what would happen if another spirit spammed all their memory at their host at once.

[Peelee]

I thought it illustrated his ongoing confusion with dealing with emotions he never had before. He described what Durkon did as "emotioning" (not emoting)

Isn't "emoting" typically used to convey hammy overacting?

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't "emoting" typically used to convey hammy overacting?

Yes, by people who aren't hep to the lingo. "Emoting" is actually feeling an emotion, which feeling comes out in expression. What people usually mean, though, is "indicating," or putting on an emotion by adopting what you imagine to be its behavioral trappings.

[Peelee]

Yes, by people who aren't hep to the lingo.

I'm not even hep to the lingo of "hep to the lingo"!

[Rrmcklin]

Belkar might be changing for real now instead of just pretending too. Guess his last days are almost over now. And the Death Worm seems pretty understanding when it comes to feelings which is a surprise to be sure.

I mean, that's been obvious for awhile now. Belkar is definitely still evil, but he's been beyond just pretending for hundreds of strips at this point.

[Dausuul]

Activating a scroll still requires the spell to be on the caster's spell list.

Ah - you are correct. That's what happens when I hurriedly look up rules I haven't used in years while getting ready for work.

So I guess it comes down to whether domain spells are considered to be on the cleric's "class list." Unless there's a definitive ruling someplace I haven't found, I could see the answer being "no," "yes, but only for your own domains," and "yes for all domains." It would take some rules-lawyering to justify "yes for all domains," but the Exarch seems like a rules-lawyery sort of guy, and that trait might well have been inherited from his living self.

The other possibility is that the Exarch's original deity and Hel both have water as one of their domains. But I like the rules lawyer explanation better. :)

[Particle_Man]

I've been wondering about that too. Sure, it's a Water domain spell... but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a cleric of the Creed of Stone probably doesn't get the Water domain.

And vampire clerics trade in their old domains for two of death, destruction, evil, and trickery.

Maybe Gontor wasn't a cleric per se but some near variant that had more elemental spell lists (so lots of earth spells, perhaps some fire and water ones (horrid wilting!) but air would be an "opposed domain")?

For a stone priest to have the water spell is a muddy issue indeed.

Edit: The Unicorn Clan School for the Shugenja from OA has Horrid Wilting on its list. Wu Jen also have it. Could Gontor have been one of those?

[Canisius]

If it's only here for awhile longer, breaking open the ceiling and letting sunlight in should be enough to take care of its threat.

I'm curious why people assume this is all happening right below the surface. For all we know, they're hundreds of feet underground. Dunno how you shatter a half-mile of earth.

[understatement]

Dwarf matriarch states here that they're pretty close to the surface.

[Peelee]

I'm curious why people assume this is all happening right below the surface. For all we know, they're hundreds of feet underground. Dunno how you shatter a half-mile of earth.

Well, the elder doesn't like being this close to the surface. Also, the door to Thor's temple is, like, all above-groundy and stuff.

[Goblin_Priest]

Was it called? I seem to remember some hoo-ha over HD limits. An alternative theory was 'Gontor opened the gate conveniently next to Hel, she conveniently tossed LDW through, thereby avoiding HD limits'
Somehow I'm doubting LDW will survive this encounter, likeable as it is.

Also had a realisation with what Belkar was attempting. Having learnt the Power of Introspection, he's now trying to wield it like a cudgel.
'Yeah I could stab you... Or I could MAKE YOU PONDER! Eh? Eh? Why isn't it working on you!?'

The nightcrawler can be controlled by anyone who can open a gate. The spell has a minimum caster level of 17 (in the case of a scroll, this comes from the scroll, a level 1 cleric can use a scroll of gate and uses it at CL 17 or higher). CL 17 will control a 34 HD monster, and the nightcrawler is only 25 HD by default.

Also, even if it is not controlled, but came through the gate on its own or at Hel's orders, it's still physically present rather than a summons.

Yea, it's not Summon Monster, whatever means was used to get the creature there, it is physically there. If it dies, it dies for real.

[GrayGriffin]

To be fair, friendship is always best. Friends at your beck and call mean you have increased firepower. The lone wolf dies, the pack fires multiple lasers at once.

Honestly, I think having to deal with one laser-wolf is enough danger for anyone.

[WolvesbaneIII]

"White Wolfed" in this case would mean getting vampirized, renovator. Which is the start of a game for VtM.

And Wolvesbane, the vampires already figured out the instant vamp spell, and used repeatedly outside the Thor Temple.

Good to know. I sometimes forget the continuity of this comic, and your correction on this issue is appreciated.

I think it's been pretty clear that the vampires would Gate (or whatever, I don't know D&D mechanics well and I'm not looking up the spells) themselves over to Hel's domain, then perhaps return to the next world to go nuts.

Thats a good point, though the only issue that needs addressing is the possibility of some vampires not having that spell prepared that day, or can't cast magic at all, or the idea that hel being stupidly evil commands the vampires to stand pat on the world, so she can take their dwarf souls as well, and the vampires revolt out of self preservation.

But thats needlessly over complicated and the vampires working together to ensure each others immortal souls wouldn't be much of a stretch.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You might want to do what I did last weekend, and reread the Book 6 strips.

And the vampires don't need Gate, as they can just use Plane Shift.

[F.Harr]

Poor Thad and Roy!

Roy so wants things to make sense.

[Particle_Man]

Roy so wants things to make sense.

I guess Durkon hasn't told Roy that they are self-parodying stick figures yet?

[Jasdoif]

So I guess it comes down to whether domain spells are considered to be on the cleric's "class list." Unless there's a definitive ruling someplace I haven't found, I could see the answer being "no," "yes, but only for your own domains," and "yes for all domains."

This sort of question came up often enough to warrant two entries in the FAQ:

To activate a spell completion or spell trigger item, the spell in the item must appear on your class spell list. How do you handle a cleric’s domain spells? Most deities have three or four domains, but a cleric chooses only two of them. Are only the spells from the domains the cleric has chosen on his class spell list for the purpose of activating these items? Or are the spells for all domains associated with the cleric’s deity on his class spell list? Also, which spells are on a specialist wizard’s class spell list? Do all wizard spells remain on the wizard class spell list, even when the wizard has chosen a specialty and his prohibited schools?

If you’re a cleric, spells from the domains you have selected are part of your class spell list. Spells from domains you could have selected, but did not, are not part of your class spell list (unless you get them on your class spell list some other way, such as by gaining another domain or adding another class).

Spells from a specialist wizard’s prohibited schools are not part of his class spell list.

Can my cleric of Pelor activate a wand of holy smite if he doesn’t have the Good domain? After all, it’s on his deity’s list of domain spells, so that’s the same as being on my character’s spell list, right?

Wrong. Your character’s domain spells are indeed treated as being on your class spell list for the purpose of using wands, scrolls, and similar items, but that applies only for spells in domains that your character has actually chosen. If you haven’t selected the domain as one of your two domains, the spells of that domain aren’t considered on your spell list (unless they’re already on your spell list from your class, such as aid, which is on all clerics’ spell lists and not just the spell lists of clerics with the Good or Luck domain).

[ijuinkun]

To be fair, friendship is always best. Friends at your beck and call mean you have increased firepower. The lone wolf dies, the pack fires multiple lasers at once.

Sigdi demonstrated this very well in the past two pages.

[Jannoire]

Thats a good point, though the only issue that needs addressing is the possibility of some vampires not having that spell prepared that day, or can't cast magic at all, or the idea that hel being stupidly evil commands the vampires to stand pat on the world, so she can take their dwarf souls as well, and the vampires revolt out of self preservation.

It would be in Hel's best interest to have the vampires up and around, since they would be high level in a new world full of freshly born, low level mooks.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'm not even hep to the lingo of "hep to the lingo"!

me neither!

[r2d2go]

I just realized that every dwarf out there is fighting honorably right now, and as such aren't afraid of the instant horrible death that just almost befell around 15 of them. Just a bit of fridge horror.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I just realized that every dwarf out there is fighting honorably right now, and as such aren't afraid of the instant horrible death that just almost befell around 15 of them. Just a bit of fridge horror.

with tht mentality, why hven't dwarves died out yet?

[Rrmcklin]

I just realized that every dwarf out there is fighting honorably right now, and as such aren't afraid of the instant horrible death that just almost befell around 15 of them. Just a bit of fridge horror.

I feel like we've seen enough to comfortably say that's not true, though. Like, they care about honor in death and will praise it, as makes sense for their circumstances, but we've seen plenty of instances of fear of death and wanting to continue living if possible.

Certain individuals certainly might have that mindset, but it's really not the kind of thing we have a reason to just assume of all dwarves.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I feel like we've seen enough to comfortably say that's not true, though. Like, they care about honor in death and will praise it, as makes sense for their circumstances, but we've seen plenty of instances of fear of death and wanting to continue living if possible.

Certain individuals certainly might have that mindset, but it's really not the kind of thing we have a reason to just assume of all dwarves.

sort of like... oh, i died, that sucks.... but at least I have this amazing afterlife!

[factotum]

with tht mentality, why hven't dwarves died out yet?

They're not suicidal. They just want to be sure that when their end *does* come that they're in such an honourable position they don't get sent to Hel--they do that by living their entire lives in an honourable way. See the story Mr. Burlew posted about a group of elderly dwarves fighting through the snow in order to fetch food for their clan.

[Riftwolf]

This sort of question came up often enough to warrant two entries in the FAQ:

Proof that Gontor has UMD?

[zimmerwald1915]

Honestly, I think having to deal with one laser-wolf is enough danger for anyone.

This comment is Tevye-approved.

[Dion]

The vampires have a vague plan to plane shift before the world ends.

But in reality they will simply die like everything else, and Hel hasn’t bothered to tell them, and they haven’t had time to figure it out.