Results 1 to 25 of 25
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Conradine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    On my way for Xibalba
    Gender
    Male

    Default Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    As always, it's just a thought experiment.

    Let's imagine that characters with regular access to healing magic undergoes a brutal training regimen made of full contact fight with bleeding and broken bones ( but stopping before a shot could cause death ), real traps who does lethal damage ( but not enough to kill ) and full damage spellcasting ( but no insta death spells ).

    Two questions:

    1- would that be enough to gain real XP?

    2- doing this too much risk driving the characters crazy?
    " Death is a disease! It's like any other... there's a cure. A cure! And I will find it. "
    - Tom Creo, The Fountain



  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    1) So basically basic training, do you think town guards should get EXP from their regular training? I mean that is typically one of the reason why guards are a higher level than the farmers, the other part, of course, in that they have to put up with dangerous situations. But what they deal with on a regular basis is not going to be as dangerous as their training. So with how you are going to train them they might start out decently high but plateau pretty quick.


    2) No, training for combat is brutal anways, just because now you are purposely trying to kill them whilst in training really doesn't make that any more or less psychologically worse.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Conradine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    On my way for Xibalba
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    So basically basic training
    Definetly no, basic training is not supposed to involve massive bleeding, broken bones, damaged internal organs and third degree burns.


    No, training for combat is brutal anways
    Not even Navy Seals routinely break their bones ( they probably would if they had healing magic ), it's quite more painful and scary.
    " Death is a disease! It's like any other... there's a cure. A cure! And I will find it. "
    - Tom Creo, The Fountain



  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    I can see this working as a special training to gain a specific ability, say you're training with a master to gain a specific feat. This could work out as a DM reward, maybe an useless feat for prereqs (say, Endurance or Diehard), but I wouldn't attach XP to it simply by the fact that the game is built around adventuring. I'd agree that this could also be used as backstory for a higher level character to justify his level and mentality.

    As for mental trauma, D&D doesn't handle that, but I can see this "training" producing all kinds of mental issues, from chronic fear of pain to apathy, delusions of immortality and everything in between. Even if it has no mechanical effect, anyone that trained like that regularly would not have a healthy mind.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    I'm not personally sure, on the one hand, while it is a brutal environment, it is a safe environment, and the characters engaged in the training know that. Because of that, there are things that they won't be able to properly experience compared to an unsafe environment. It will be less stressful (though still stressful I imagine), and they will likely have a clearer head, because nobody's life is at risk, as opposed to field work, where every decision you make could be a life or death choice.

    On the other hand, learning how to cope with pain is also an experience, as well as the training itself, which most guard go through anyway in "normal" training, so really the only advantage this has, is giving people a larger pain threshold, so with that in mind, I think the best way to handle this would be to actually treat it as a legendary site (from complete scoundrel) that gives the character improved toughness for more HP and/or the great fortitude feat for more fort save.
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Altair_the_Vexed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Northamptonshire, UK

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    As always, it's just a thought experiment.
    ...
    ...combat ( but stopping before a shot could cause death )
    How can you reliably stop before you kill someone, under d20/D&D 3 & 3.5 & PF rules?

    A critical hit from a bow, or a greataxe, or scythe or similar high multiplier weapon has a significant risk of outright killing a low level target in a single hit.
    People in training are probably low level, as they need the training - and a greataxe critical can deliver 3d12 + 3x(STR bonus x1.5).
    For an attacker of STR 14, that's an average of 28.5 damage: probably enough to reduce anyone 1st level to -10 hp or more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    ...traps ( but not enough to kill )
    Again, some traps roll to attack, so they can critically hit - and you're into the same issue as the combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    ...spellcasting ( but no insta death spells )
    And again, some spells roll to hit, so you might (less likely) run into the same problems.

    You can avoid the critical hit problem by using weapons and traps and spells that don't have those high multipliers - but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Two questions:

    1- would that be enough to gain real XP?

    2- doing this too much risk driving the characters crazy?
    1- If you restrict the training to avoid the problem with criticals, then I'd say that you can't really award experience for it. If you don't restrict it in that way, then it is a real threat, and you should be gaining XP. Maybe at a reduced rate, because you're aware that there's a safety net so to speak, but still you are running the risk of death.

    2- Yeah, sure, if you want to use sanity rules. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is a real thing, and it doesn't just take combat to trigger it. People suffer for mental health issues from any period of prolonged stress - civilians in war, victims of bullying and harassment, witnesses to disturbing events.
    Most important question: is it fitting to your game table to have characters with mental health problems?
    Last edited by Altair_the_Vexed; 2019-05-22 at 02:45 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Malphegor's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Depends how the healing works. If it totally restores the body, then your training was only useful in the mind. If it heals bigger wounds but keeps the small muscle tears that makes you stronger as it heals into a new structure (as I understand strength gain), then sure that should work.
    I'm using my signature to bookmark my favourite things I've seen on giantitp, none of them my own creation.
    | Horizon Tripper | Runecaster Handbook | Sha'ir Handbook |

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    A Sauna in Hell
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    I've heard of people letting Warblades train in the negative plane to level up and down at the same time(to retrain all maneuvers into higher level ones). Wouldn't be much of a stretch to allow your method.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    If you dig into the mental side-affects of training, you need to do it for adventuring generally; most PCs are going to have something going on if you look at what they have been through.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    No Longer The Frostfell

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Since there's no true accomplishment, you're effectively conducting safe practice in a painful but otherwise save way. If you're super keen on making this work, the fluff of it is unnecessary. Essentially you'll need a mechanic to determine how much XP you gained that much, effectively measuring the amount of retention you have from being brutalized for that time period. I would say a weekly roll similar to a profession check in the skill you want to train in then determine a formula to determine how that translates in to XP. You should NOT get a lot of XP for doing this as you're not really accomplishing anything or overcoming anything. Maximum XP rewards should measure maybe 100-150 points. Minimums should be really low, like 5-10 XP. It shouldn't be easy for a character to level up in a fast way like this, otherwise all of the town guard and such would use these methods and would have very high level guards all the time.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    I would allow it IFF the training was as interesting to obtain/go through/recover from as an equivalent dungeon. Have to get a wise sage to teach you? Worth xp. Have to go through a full lethality training dungeon? Worth xp once, twice if the second time has some extra element like a time limit. Have to get the apricots of tranquility to be able to sleep at night afterwards? Worth xp.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Conradine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    On my way for Xibalba
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Ooook people...
    thanks for all the answers.

    Last question: in your opinion, a bare minimum of 1 xp for a day of standard study or training is reasonable?
    Last edited by Conradine; 2019-05-22 at 02:44 PM.
    " Death is a disease! It's like any other... there's a cure. A cure! And I will find it. "
    - Tom Creo, The Fountain



  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Let's imagine that characters with regular access to healing magic undergoes a brutal training regimen made of full contact fight with bleeding and broken bones ( but stopping before a shot could cause death ), real traps who does lethal damage ( but not enough to kill ) and full damage spellcasting ( but no insta death spells ).
    You're basically describing D&D Gladiator pits. Real gladiators would fight for sport, not usually to the death, and gain tons of experience before going off to be wound treated. Some were slaves and some were mercs in it for money. But whatever the case, they definitely learned some things. Not so much how to slay giant dragons and demons but some things.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    So if you have a way to completely avoid crits and thereby potential for instant death then only feat training

    if not then this is pretty much like Kyutaru said gladiator pit fighting and would be normal exp awarded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Ooook people...
    thanks for all the answers.

    Last question: in your opinion, a bare minimum of 1 xp for a day of standard study or training is reasonable?
    there was a whole thread on gaining exp per day a monthish ago mud farming

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Conradine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    On my way for Xibalba
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Mh, basically I asked "do you agree that even the stictest DM should allow an 1 xp / day minimum?".
    " Death is a disease! It's like any other... there's a cure. A cure! And I will find it. "
    - Tom Creo, The Fountain



  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Mh, basically I asked "do you agree that even the stictest DM should allow an 1 xp / day minimum?".
    If you’re looking for some RAW answer to convince a DM, then no, doing this doesn’t grant any XP at all. It’s just training with, by your own parameters, no risk of death or lasting injury. The fact that you describe it as being more “hardcore” than most training regimens is irrelevant to the rules. Because every PC is training. Constantly. Unless otherwise occupied, they are assumed to be setting aside some time each day to improve and maintain their skills. And you don’t get free additional XP for doing the same thing as everyone else.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Also it is likely that in a world where magic is prolific and a large part of daily life training would standardly be much more 'hardcore'. The reason we avoid major injuries like this in our military is a broken bone can put you out for months and stitches out for weeks. If these injuries could be resolved in moments why wouldn't training standardly be much more hardcore and grueling?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Conradine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    On my way for Xibalba
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Well, because 99% of people would go insane if they had to undergo a training that would make a Navy Seal shriek.

    Altough Extract Drug - Vodare ( for the fear ) and Sannish ( for the pain ) could help. Masochism ( the spell ) could be useful too.
    Last edited by Conradine; 2019-05-23 at 09:07 AM.
    " Death is a disease! It's like any other... there's a cure. A cure! And I will find it. "
    - Tom Creo, The Fountain



  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    I am not really sure if I believe that from reports of the spartan training of children it doesn't sound that much different and in fact death and major injuries weren't uncommon because of the brutal nature of it.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Why care about death? Last breath costs only 500gp to cast. 500 gp for a deadly encounter is a small price.
    a typical Dark Wizard hunter would die, on average, eight and a half times along the way to becoming ‘paranoid’.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    Why care about death? Last breath costs only 500gp to cast. 500 gp for a deadly encounter is a small price.
    being as it is a 4th level druid spell, you are probably looking at 780/casting + the price to have a level 7 druid hang around to cast it...

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    The question is whether or not training gives XP at all. And, in certain circumstances, it would by my reckoning.

    Would using risky to life and limb training improve experience yields? Yes. Can one invest in magic to mitigate that risk? I'd say so.

    But before we can get into numbers for brutal training, you have to invent numbers for safe training. Which, to my knowledge, does not exist.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Red Fel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Well, because 99% of people would go insane if they had to undergo a training that would make a Navy Seal shriek.
    Here's the problem, though: It's fluff.

    Tell me, mechanically, the difference between these two scenarios:
    • My Fighter swings a sword at a dummy for six hours straight.
    • My Fighter engages in bareknuckle brawling, resulting in torn ligaments and shattered bones, for six hours straight, after which he receives healing that fills him back to top shape.

    As Pam from The Office would say, "They're exactly the same." Mechanically, that is. You've engaged in six hours of "training" which caused you no lasting harm and cost you nothing. The difference is just how you describe it, no more.

    If your DM should grant experience for "training that would make a Navy Seal shriek," he should logically grant experience for any training that has a similar opportunity and resource cost.

    So let's take it a step further - what if you remove the healing component, or force the PC to pay for it out of pocket? Okay, let's ask Pam the difference again:
    • My Fighter engages in bareknuckle brawling, resulting in torn ligaments and shattered bones, for six hours straight.
    • My Fighter stabs himself with a knife, over and over, for six hours straight.

    Your verdict, Pam? Exactly the same, you say?

    Well, yeah. Because you're just subjecting your PC to random punishment. Again, there's no risk of failure - there's no fear that you'll mess up the trap and get killed, or that the non-lethal spell will accidentally overload and melt your skull. You might as well be stabbing yourself, setting yourself on fire, or hitting yourself with a rock, for all the difference it makes. Randomly abusing your own PC, with no real risk, is not a basis to award XP.

    Now, it appears your real question is "Should even the strictest DM award a minimum 1 xp/day?" The RAW answer is "No." Per RAW, the DM only hands out XP for encounters. Now, fact is, the word "encounter" covers a multitude of sins, but sitting around all day and RPing a non-event - and let's be honest, "I train alone all day" is as non-event as you can get, there's no interaction and no real danger of failure at anything - isn't really an "encounter" in most traditional senses.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Conradine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    On my way for Xibalba
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Hi Red. I missed our conversations. :)

    Well, from a mechanical viewpoint there is a rule, it's in the Expert 3.5 book. I don't know if it's free content so I'll not go into specifics, but it allows to gain somewhere around 600-800 xp / year of work, at low levels. Up to 2200 / year for high level skills and producing lots of masterworks.
    There's also another module ( Test of Skills ) that allow gaining xp reading books. More or less 5 xp / day, twice for full time studying.


    About our conversation.

    Tell me, mechanically, the difference between these two scenarios:
    My Fighter swings a sword at a dummy for six hours straight.
    My Fighter engages in bareknuckle brawling, resulting in torn ligaments and shattered bones, for six hours straight, after which he receives healing that fills him back to top shape.
    Mechanically, there's no difference.
    If we talk instead of pseudo-verisimilitude - which was my original idea, I would say that the first fighter is just doing cardio, mabye he's also polishing his stance a bit.

    The second is exercising:

    - pain threshold
    - coordination and dodging
    - aggressivity and combat instinct
    - psychological stress endurance
    - adaptation and improvisation in fight
    - quick recovery after being stunned
    - breath control in real fight
    - perception and anticipation


    That's why full contact sparring is so vital in real fighting sports.


    So let's take it a step further - what if you remove the healing component, or force the PC to pay for it out of pocket? Okay, let's ask Pam the difference again:
    My Fighter engages in bareknuckle brawling, resulting in torn ligaments and shattered bones, for six hours straight.
    My Fighter stabs himself with a knife, over and over, for six hours straight.

    Your verdict, Pam? Exactly the same, you say?

    Well, yeah. Because you're just subjecting your PC to random punishment. Again, there's no risk of failure - there's no fear that you'll mess up the trap and get killed, or that the non-lethal spell will accidentally overload and melt your skull. You might as well be stabbing yourself, setting yourself on fire, or hitting yourself with a rock, for all the difference it makes. Randomly abusing your own PC, with no real risk, is not a basis to award XP.

    Seriously?
    Training isn't simply self harm. Actually, the objective is learning to avoid as much damage as possible while traps or opponents are doing their best to chew you. Is about learning to dodge, to duck, to jump, to parry, to harden muscles and absorb blows, to anicipate movement. And all the while you learn to counterattack.
    Last edited by Conradine; 2019-05-23 at 04:21 PM.
    " Death is a disease! It's like any other... there's a cure. A cure! And I will find it. "
    - Tom Creo, The Fountain



  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Brutal full contact lethal damage training

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    being as it is a 4th level druid spell, you are probably looking at 780/casting + the price to have a level 7 druid hang around to cast it...
    Since druid is one of the best classes in the game, why not have one in your party? If you have two in party of four, you could easily gain XP without searching monsters. First druid is fighting with party member. Second cast last breath to the loser. Swap positions. You need about 10 normal encounters to reach next level. Fighting one-on-one with equally powered enemy is considered deadly encounter and grants four times more xp. So in cost of 1500 gp and three 4th-level slots you could gain next level. Sure it has nonzero cost, but you need not perform complicated logistics to search quests, quest monsters and dungeons. Once party druids get 4th levels spells the party would level up quite fast.
    a typical Dark Wizard hunter would die, on average, eight and a half times along the way to becoming ‘paranoid’.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •