Would you play a caster in this setting?

[Boci]

Hearing only that, I could not say yes right away, but would still consider it. I would have lots of questions on the anti-magic ore. Specifically how often it will nerf my abilities to cast, can I detect it ahead of time so I don't waste spells, is there a cure? I'd want an exact cost associated with it. It would seem like every BBEG would have this.

"How often" is hard to tell from the setting alone without a specific game in mind, the cure though is to move away from the Otataral. As long as you don't rub the dust into your skin there should be no long term effects. For detecting it, it registers under detect magic as a void with no background trace which you would expect to find literally anywhere else from the middle of a forest to the depth of the ocean to a bustling street. Spellcasters can feel Otataral when they try and target it or cast a spell in its vicinity. I could be argued if they aren't familiar with the substance they won't know what to make of the sensation beyond just feeling bad, but it could just as easily be argued the bad feeling will be enough to tip them off.

As for every BBEG having it, again the artifact example. Does every BBEG want an artifact? Probably, they're cool. Does every BBEG get an artifact? Not neccissarily, they are rare and hard to come by.

If your premise is that there will be no traditional spellcasting classes, only custom ones, I would suggest writing a rough draft of those classes before asking for feedback on 'would you play a caster in this setting?" What caster options are available, if you're not using 5e classes?

That's not too relevant for the purpose of answering the question in the OP. Yes, the casting classes will be different, but they will not fair any better than the traditional classes against someone wielding an otataral blade, so may as well use them and only focus on one new variable, rather than also needing to balance reworking casting classes in the equation as well.

Bottom line: Steven Erikson never explains anything, and everything from timeline to the structure of magic to the actual capabilities of the mythic characters like Karsa and Mael is inconsistent from book to book. Erikson is an amateur painter, and the books are best enjoyed as the dramatic equivalent of a series of loosely-connected paintings of Awesome Moments from Erikson's head, with recurring characters and themes but no rules but the Rule of Cool.

I really, really enjoyed Memories of Ice, and I read the other books up through Reaper's Gale, plus some of ICE's books and the first bit of Forge of Darkness, but 5E just isn't a good system to simulate Malazan stories in because 5E is all about the rules (game rules and predictable rules of magic) and Malazan stories are all about whatever happens to strike the storyteller as cool at the moment. Law vs. chaos, in a sense. I can imagine it being a good setting for an effects-based storytelling game like FATE, because then you wouldn't have to worry about how Anomander Rake's magic works, you just say "He's a powerful mage," and when you need something powerful done you just think of a way to flavor the effect as somehow Darkness-aspected and then it happens.

I think you're being blinded by focusing on the awesome characters. That's understandable, they are a fairly integral part of the series, but not for what I'm doing. This is not about making a setting where players can construct their own Karsa, Quickben or Rake. You can't, any more than you can play Elminster in FR. Remove the awesome character and suddenly the world becomes a lot more consistent and D&D compatible.

[Sariel Vailo]

So let's put a pole up in here any body who mains a full or half caster in DND 5e at the moment. Would you be a caster in this setting.
I say I would not be a caster if I even considered this setting as something I'd play in.

[Rukelnikov]

I wouldn't be discouraged by the settings rules, or the presence of the metal. I'd likely play a mad scientist Wizard, very likely a Necro, do experiments with the metal, and then come up with strategies against those wearing such, and have strategies using it for my own advantage, like for instance animating mummies and equipping them with armor taken from imperial scum, so that their resistance to damage can't be bypassed, or crafting golems, and equipping them with weapons of that material too.

AMF metal arrows would be dope too, if you hit an enemy wizard with them they are impaired to cast, something heavier like a dagger could work better, throw a dagger targeting a 5 foot space near a Wizard

Take into account, though, that a Lycanthrope with a such an armor would be effectively immune to physical damage attacks, save for artifacts (unless the metal affects those too)

The question really is:

• How often are the party going to run into Otataral? Is it a once-in-a-blue-moon, hundreds-of-thousands-of-gold-for-a-small-bit sort of thing, or is it a "well, you can't get it, but all the town guards do because they work for the Empire" thing?
  
• Are you actually going to feature a setting-wide cataclysm that messes with the player's ability to do magic?

As some who plays DnD primarily on Faerun, this has happened to me twice already, first with the death of Mystra and then the Spellplague(also the death of Mystra), so it wouldn't be something that outlandish.

[Sigreid]

Random thought here. You might consider the antimagic ore as having kind of an automatic counterspell if it's within the area of a spell or magical effect, with the spell strength based on how much of it is present and how it's used/concentrated. That would let it still be a major setting thing without it being any kind of an I win button.

[MaxWilson]

I think you're being blinded by focusing on the awesome characters. That's understandable, they are a fairly integral part of the series, but not for what I'm doing. This is not about making a setting where players can construct their own Karsa, Quickben or Rake. You can't, any more than you can play Elminster in FR. Remove the awesome character and suddenly the world becomes a lot more consistent and D&D compatible.

Does it? I still can't figure out what the warrens are really about or what they are usable for, even by regular mages like Claw assassins, besides "whatever Steven Erikson feels like at the moment". Erikson is the polar opposite of Brandon Sanderson or Jim Butcher.

So let's put a pole up in here any body who mains a full or half caster in DND 5e at the moment. Would you be a caster in this setting.
I say I would not be a caster if I even considered this setting as something I'd play in.

I'm DMing more than playing, but I'll answer anyway because I enjoy playing more than DMing.

Would I play a spellcaster in a campaign where there are occasional severe restrictions on magic? Sure. I would also play one in a setting where, as per the Dresden Files, you can't use magic inside someone else's home unless you're invited. I wouldn't play exclusively spellcasters, and (just like Harry Dresden does) I would stock up on nonmagical backup options like the Mobile feat, but the existence of otataral wouldn't particularly deter me from playing a spellcaster unless everyone else in the party was already playing a wizard or bard--I would feel that we needed at least one warrior for insurance.

[2D8HP]

...would you play a spell caster in such a setting, or read those rules/lore and decide on martial only characters for you?

I'd be much more inclined to play mostly "Martials", because that's already my inclination as "The 7th Yoyage of Sinbad" movie and "Conan" comics imprinted on me more strongly than "The Wizard of Earthsea" book and "Dr. Strange" comics, and even in "Stormbringer", while the protagonist was a magician, the antagonists was one as well, and the general gist was "magic brings doom".

Besides, after a couple of spells or "Cantrips" I just find the 5e rules of playing a spellcaster too much to keep track of (but I'm also more likely to play a "Champion" Fighter than a "Battlemaster" one).

[GlenSmash!]

Does it? I still can't figure out what the warrens are really about or what they are usable for, even by regular mages like Claw assassins, besides "whatever Steven Erikson feels like at the moment". Erikson is the polar opposite of Brandon Sanderson or Jim Butcher.



I'm DMing more than playing, but I'll answer anyway because I enjoy playing more than DMing.

Would I play a spellcaster in a campaign where there are occasional severe restrictions on magic? Sure. I would also play one in a setting where, as per the Dresden Files, you can't use magic inside someone else's home unless you're invited. I wouldn't play exclusively spellcasters, and (just like Harry Dresden does) I would stock up on nonmagical backup options like the Mobile feat, but the existence of otataral wouldn't particularly deter me from playing a spellcaster unless everyone else in the party was already playing a wizard or bard--I would feel that we needed at least one warrior for insurance.

Oh Harry totally took the Mobile Feat. Smart guy that Dresden.

[Boci]

I wouldn't be discouraged by the settings rules, or the presence of the metal. I'd likely play a mad scientist Wizard, very likely a Necro, do experiments with the metal, and then come up with strategies against those wearing such, and have strategies using it for my own advantage, like for instance animating mummies and equipping them with armor taken from imperial scum, so that their resistance to damage can't be bypassed, or crafting golems, and equipping them with weapons of that material too.

That sounds like a very fun character, though it is unlikely they would be able to find enough otataral to equip multiple mummies with armour made primarily of the stuff.

AMF metal arrows would be dope too, if you hit an enemy wizard with them they are impaired to cast, something heavier like a dagger could work better, throw a dagger targeting a 5 foot space near a Wizard

Yes, otataral arrows could work (though that does bring up the ugly meat point debate), the dagger will, though mages can just move away from the square you threw it into.

Take into account, though, that a Lycanthrope with a such an armor would be effectively immune to physical damage attacks, save for artifacts (unless the metal affects those too).

How does otataral armour make a lycanthrope immune to silver weapons? And yes, artifacts would likely not be suppressed by otataral either, though regular magic weapons would be.

Random thought here. You might consider the antimagic ore as having kind of an automatic counterspell if it's within the area of a spell or magical effect, with the spell strength based on how much of it is present and how it's used/concentrated. That would let it still be a major setting thing without it being any kind of an I win button.

That's an idea, but its not how otataral works in the setting, and I do want to see how people would take to a purer representation. Fans of the book, as I predicted, seem fine with it, and so do several non-fans it seems.

[Sigreid]

Sure. It was just a random thought of some rando on the internet for a way to make quantity matter.

[allthingslich]

I'm always a big fan of playing the underdog, overcoming challenges and playing the "gimped" character, so yes I would play one. Perhaps I'd go the divine route though, so as to rely upon favors from the gods to override the harsh effects (vs. magic) of the world.

[Particle_Man]

Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

Anyhow I would probably play a non caster in this campaign. If I play a spell caster it is because I actually want to cast spells, not because I want to wear a pointed hat with the word “Wizzard” on it and watch other people swing swords while I hide.

[Rukelnikov]

How does otataral armour make a lycanthrope immune to silver weapons? And yes, artifacts would likely not be suppressed by otataral either, though regular magic weapons would be.

lol, you're right, forgot about the silvered weapons.

Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

That's the kind of questions I'd try to answer in game with my mad wizard.

[thereaper]

Given the sorts of tricks that high level casters can pull off, this seems pretty fair. It's a very 3.5 way of solving the problems with casters, but it works.

[Teaguethebean]

I wouldn't touch a caster as I would know you are gonna give that stuff to the bbeg

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't touch a caster as I would know you are gonna give that stuff to the bbeg

Hahaha, this is Malazan--you're going to wind up fighting to SAVE the BBEG, and there will be a confusing subplot about a dragon made entirely out of the anti-magic metal, but that dragon will probably be killed by NPCs anyway.

[Spriteless]

I would play a partial caster, like an Arcane Trickster, a Paladin, or a multiclass. I would pick my skills carefully, instead of picking them for flavor, and would be able to do things without magic, but still have limited options when the plot says so.

But then, I find the idea of being handicapped sometimes (but not all times) very dramatic. If a system has flaws, I make sure to take flaws that might come into play. Very memorable.

[dragoeniex]

I would shy away from my favorite classes if told odds were good they'd be worth very little in climactic fights and plot beats. And I say that as someone who enjoys it when a PC (mine or otherwise) becomes the load for a fight once in a blue moon. Sick or mentally fried friend needs to be protected while they're useless? Whoo- drama!

The main difference to me is coming in with an expectation. This is a thing that will happen. It may happen rarely, but they'll likely all be important moments.

Legendary saves already force different strategies against big foes. Throw in immunity for the couple of nearby mooks and the ability to passively buzz casters out of concentrating on whatever environment or ally-affecting alternative they've switched to, and that's insanely frustrating. It's coming in knowing you'll be knee-capped when things hit the fan.

Why not tweak the properties slightly?

Let the material come in two varieties. When worked one way, wearers with enough are immune to the direct influence of magic-- just them. An exceptionally well-plated individual might be able to shield one creature next to them as well.

Worked another way, the material grants that area-based concentration detriment. This is something that offers a (usualy) lesser protection to a broader area, and it encourages a markedly different kind of play from casters than the former.

Have it so these two magnetically repulse each other or something. An enemy with access needs to choose which is going to be the biggest boon for this venture. As for the heroes, waiting to follow an immunity-clad foe back to his encampement- where he'll switch gear to mesh with its concentration defenses- could be exciting.

Even if you intend the material to be Blue Moon level rarity, I agree it should be something mage players are left with options to face.

[MaxWilson]

Let the material come in two varieties. When worked one way, wearers with enough are immune to the direct influence of magic-- just them. An exceptionally well-plated individual might be able to shield one creature next to them as well.

Karsa Orlong. :) His Teblor blood oil works exactly this way, IIRC, and turns out to have otataral as a component.

Even if you intend the material to be Blue Moon level rarity, I agree it should be something mage players are left with options to face.

It could just be that legendary PCs gain access to Elder Warrens eventually, which totally ignore otataral for reasons that aren't completely clear. It's not like that doesn't happen frequently in the books. Pretty much every mage character winds up a High Mage of some sort or another. Otataral, and chaotic warren corruption, only ever affect lesser mages. You could use it to explain why the PCs don't have an army of NPCs helping them.

[Arkhios]

Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

Anyhow I would probably play a non caster in this campaign. If I play a spell caster it is because I actually want to cast spells, not because I want to wear a pointed hat with the word “Wizzard” on it and watch other people swing swords while I hide.

That literally made me laugh! (Not only because I would do that out of spite)

Slightly related, a friend of mine played a character (a pure rogue, in fact) who posed himself as a mighty wizard. This was in Pathfinder where there are these mundane items: Spring-loaded Wrist Sheaths, that let you hide small items inside them, and draw them as a swift action (in 5th edition that would probably count as Bonus Action).

This Charlatan-Would-Be-Wizard would then hide daggers inside those wrist-sheaths, draw them seemingly out of nowhere, throw them, and tell everyone it was a magic missile (a dagger with strength +1 even deals same amount of damage as one magic missile)

The fun thing about it was that it was 100% legit and worked by RAW (except, obviously the part that dagger ≠ magic missile)

Other than that, he would use Use Magic Device (a skill) to cast spells from scrolls, wands, etc.

[Boci]

I'm always a big fan of playing the underdog, overcoming challenges and playing the "gimped" character, so yes I would play one. Perhaps I'd go the divine route though, so as to rely upon favors from the gods to override the harsh effects (vs. magic) of the world.

Divine and arcane casters are very similar in this setting, so the difference likely wouldn't be much.

Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

It a non-magical metal, so it should be.

Why not tweak the properties slightly?

That is certainly an idea, but I do want to see how people would respond to a pure representation of otataral. Its mixed, which is did expect, but there are people who are not fans of thebook and yet seem fine playing a caster in such a setting, which is good to know. Still, it wouldn't hurt to have some varient otataral rules though, as several posters have stated they won't play casters under the stronger otataral rules.

I wouldn't touch a caster as I would know you are gonna give that stuff to the bbeg

No, that isn't a given, not in my games at least.

It could just be that legendary PCs gain access to Elder Warrens eventually, which totally ignore otataral for reasons that aren't completely clear. It's not like that doesn't happen frequently in the books. Pretty much every mage character winds up a High Mage of some sort or another. Otataral, and chaotic warren corruption, only ever affect lesser mages. You could use it to explain why the PCs don't have an army of NPCs helping them.

Players should not expect to gain access to elder magic. This game is about the setting, not the awesome NPCs who regularly break the rules of the setting.

[Sigreid]

Players should not expect to gain access to elder magic. This game is about the setting, not the awesome NPCs who regularly break the rules of the setting.

If I knew it were possible, even if it wasn't likely I would find the setting much more appealing as that would give me a goal for a caster and a reason for him to push his limits with a steam shovel.

[MaxWilson]

Players should not expect to gain access to elder magic. This game is about the setting, not the awesome NPCs who regularly break the rules of the setting.

The relationship between Elder warrens and otataral is part of the setting though, and will influence player perceptions of how unfair otataral is. Just knowing that it has limits will affect e.g. whether they expect BBEGs to always have some on hand, or how much they desire to acquire otataral swords for themselves.

BTW it's the author who breaks the inferred rules of the setting, not the NPCs. (They're probably PCs anyway.) It's not like it's Tavore's fault after all that Erikson makes her otataral sword inexplicably potent.

If I knew it were possible, even if it wasn't likely I would find the setting much more appealing as that would give me a goal for a caster and a reason for him to push his limits with a steam shovel.

For the record, in the books otataral is never used by any bad guys that I can think of. Chaotic warren corruption *is* used by a powerful "bad guy" (who turns out to be not exactly a bad guy per se) but he is an Elder mage himself, basically a prehistoric orc (Erikson's orcs are very magical and almost unkillable, mostly, except when they aren't) and even then it's probably best modeled as "whenever you cast a spell make a Sanity save or take (spell level) x 3d6 damage" because spellcasting is just dangerous, not suicidal, and powerful mages keep right on casting.

[Telok]

I'd have no objections but I am already familiar with the setting (have some idea about how often these things actually come up in the books presentation of the world) and I have played casters in AD&D and other games where you occasionally run across magic immune critters. Neither is a deal breaker unless the DM makes me roll lots of checks to do anything but cast spells.

[Boci]

If I knew it were possible, even if it wasn't likely I would find the setting much more appealing as that would give me a goal for a caster and a reason for him to push his limits with a steam shovel.

Its not so much unlikely as basically impossible. Elder Shadow is sundered, so humans can learn from pieces of that, but its also weaker, its only half elder magic. Chaos magic can sometimes act like elder magic, and humans can learn that. But all the rest of the Elder Magic is not available to humans.

This is why I didn't mention Elder magic in the opening post, I felt it would only confuse the issue.

BTW it's the author who breaks the inferred rules of the setting, not the NPCs.

...yes, I know. The fact remains this game will be about the setting the author creates, not the abilities of the powerful characters who break the settings rules.

[Elysiume]

Without knowing the backstory I wouldn't play a caster in the setting as described. There are ways that you could circumvent the major drawbacks of magic that're introduced, but why bother? As a player, I don't like having my abilities randomly shut off. It's expected that abilities aren't always useful, but I just wouldn't bother with a class if I knew its main abilities would be useless at times that I can't control. There are some options not involving direct attack spells that would still work, but without knowing the extent to which I'd need to work around things, I'd just play a class where I knew their abilities would work in general.