Another "what class do I play?" thread

[Supermouse]

So, it's been years since I last played D&D 5e or read anything related to it, and now I was invited to join a group in an ongoing campaign next sunday.
By what they told me about the campaign, it seems to me they are playing the Rise of Tiamat module (they started south of the Sword Coast, the city they were in was attacked by an army and a blue dragon, they went norh through Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep and found a dragon cult). I don't know anything else about this module, and I don't really want to spoil myself, but maybe if you guys know it it may help to form a decision.

The group is composed by a thief, a paladin, a druid and a warlock. I don't really know what all subclasses are, although I know the druid is from the Circle of the Moon and the Warlock is not an hexblade. The group is using Core-only, with the SCAG, so I know they aren't using any weird Xanathar's stuff. Also, by what I caught in a conversation, the Paladin will be doing some multiclass combo shenanigan with Warlock.

So, it seems they have 2 frontline characters (the druid and paladin), with a ranged damage dealer (warlock) and a mobile damage dealer/skill monkey (rogue).

What could I do to help those guys survive? I was thinking in going the typical "5th wheel" lore bard with a ton of skills and utility spells, but IDK how fun would it be to play as one of those in this campaign (by what I heard it has a lot of dungeon crawling and exploding people, and not much opportunities to be the "party face"). Or maybe a sorcerer, to be a simple minded blaster, but the core sorcerer options suck, and IDK if I'll convince the DM to let me play as a Divine Soul or Shadow Sorcerer. Or maybe some other idea?

Thanks in advance.

[nickl_2000]

Evocation Wizard. The party likely doesn't have an intelligence character, and they are really good at blowing things up (bonus that you aren't blowing up allies when they do).

[Tallytrev813]

Id roll Lore Bard, but it sounds like you're not that in to it.

How high of a level are you going?

[Man_Over_Game]

There's a few things you'll want to pay close attention to:

The Moon Druid, while usually very effective as a melee character, generally lacks defenses. They often take a ton of damage in a short amount of time.
The Paladin might be sacrificing survivability for damage by taking Warlock levels.

As a result, you might see either of them take more damage than they'd like.

The team also already has two Charisma based characters (Paladin and Warlock), and so a third isn't going to be adding much.

What this team doesn't have is a healer. Personally, my recommendation is either:

• Arcana Cleric (in SCAG), for blasting and wizard-like utility spells.
• Life Cleric, for massive group sustainability.

My favorite healing combo is combining Life Cleric, Warding Bond (the spell), Heavy Armor Master (the feat), and getting 3 levels into Sorcerer (for Twinned Spell). Twin Warding Bond on your Paladin and Druid to keep them alive indefinitely, as you provide massive healing with Cure Wounds, Revivify, and Healing Word with your Metamagic and Life Cleric features.

[Supermouse]

There's a few things you'll want to pay close attention to:

The Moon Druid, while usually very effective as a melee character, generally lacks defenses. They often take a ton of damage in a short amount of time.
The Paladin might be sacrificing survivability for damage by taking Warlock levels.

As a result, you might see either of them take more damage than they'd like.

The team also already has two Charisma based characters (Paladin and Warlock), and so a third isn't going to be adding much.

What this team doesn't have is a healer. Personally, my recommendation is either:

• Arcana Cleric (in SCAG), for blasting and wizard-like utility spells.
• Life Cleric, for massive group sustainability.

My favorite healing combo is combining Life Cleric, Warding Bond (the spell), Heavy Armor Master (the feat), and getting 3 levels into Sorcerer (for Twinned Spell). Twin Warding Bond on your Paladin and Druid to keep them alive indefinitely, as you provide massive healing with Cure Wounds, Revivify, and Healing Word with your Metamagic and Life Cleric features.

That's a pretty good take, actually. I was not thinking about the class atributes, and how I'd be redundant. TBH, the DM suggested me a Mystra Cleric with Wizard multiclass, but I thought the idea was stupid initially (MAD and all that stuff). Maybe a single class Cleric with the Arcana domain would be better, and I think he only suggested me the multiclass because they didn't look in SCAG for character options. How would I go into building one of those? I still have some habits from 3.5, so I get shivers when dumping Int, and don't really know how bad a 8 in an attribute is.


As for what level we are aiming for, IDK for real, all I know is that I'll be starting at lvl 5, since I'm joining the ongoing campaign.

[Man_Over_Game]

That's a pretty good take, actually. I was not thinking about the class atributes, and how I'd be redundant. TBH, the DM suggested me a Mystra Cleric with Wizard multiclass, but I thought the idea was stupid initially (MAD and all that stuff). Maybe a single class Cleric with the Arcana domain would be better, and I think he only suggested me the multiclass because they didn't look in SCAG for character options. How would I go into building one of those? I still have some habits from 3.5, so I get shivers when dumping Int, and don't really know how bad a 8 in an attribute is.


As for what level we are aiming for, IDK for real, all I know is that I'll be starting at lvl 5, since I'm joining the ongoing campaign.

Because casters can only maintain one Concentration spell at a time, can only ever cast one spell per round (in most circumstances), and most duration spells can be nullified by forcing Concentration checks, debuffs are actually not super strong in 5e. Players use them more often than enemies do.

Additionally, Saving Throws are generally divided into two groups: Important and Non-important.

Important:
Dexterity
Constitution
Wisdom

Non-Important:
Strength
Intelligence
Charisma

You'll note that every single character starts with proficiency in one from each of those lists. Dumping one of the non-important stats won't be a big deal, and dumping stats in general won't cripple a character. Barbarians kinda need Wisdom, because Hold Person is a good resource that will nullify their Rage, but that's about the extent of "needing" saving throws goes.

I wouldn't recommend multiclassing casters, unless you're aiming for an explicit feature that ties in to your concept. With the Life Cleric/Sorcerer build, it's about getting your Twinned Spell and Distant Spell Metamagics to use with Warding Bond and Revivify.

An Arcana Cleric is perfect as its own "Cleric+Wizard" hybrid, as it does everything you want from a wizard (Blasting + non-combat utility effects), with the support and armor you'd expect from being a Cleric. A straight Arcana Cleric would do well for the team.

As for building an Arcana Cleric, it's really quite simple: Get Shocking Grasp, Firebolt, and some non-combat Wizard cantrip (Mage Hand?) for your starting Wizard cantrips. Try to diversify your selection, so that your cantrips aren't solving the same problems (so don't get both Firebolt and Ray of Frost). You'll only ever really need one melee cantrip and maybe 2 ranged cantrips for combat.

After that...go nuts. Most healing can be solved with Healing Word and good use of Hit Dice during a Short Rest, so just try to make sure people don't die. At level 6, you'll be able to dispel magic from your allies, so just keep that in mind. Healing Word is a Bonus Action spell, so you'll still be able to cast a cantrip or make an attack after using it. Arcana Clerics are hard to build incorrectly.

One particularly fun thing you can do is take a level into Fighter and get the Spell Sniper feat. With it, you can cast the weapon-attacking SCAG cantrips with a reach weapon (like a whip), being able to hit an enemy with a spell like Booming Blade from 10 feet away, enough to hit and run your targets.

[Keravath]

If they are using SCAG then you might want to consider an Arcana Cleric. Great melee support especially with the booming blade cantrip. One common approach is to play variant human and take Magic Initiate druid as your starting feat with Shillelagh and Thorn whip as your cantrips. Shillelagh makes the character wisdom dependent only for combat and this can all be combined with spirit guardians and spiritual weapon to become a very effective melee character with all the usual cleric abilities as backup. (There is a good build for this on these forums).

The other suggestion I would have is along the lines of the evoker suggested earlier except start with one level of knowledge cleric and then switch to evoker. Start with a 14 wisdom and 16 int if you are using point buy. Variant human with resilient con works but so do a large number of other race options. The knowledge cleric dip adds additional knowledge skills (along with expertise in them), medium armor and shields for a better base AC, some extremely useful 1st level cleric spells and some cleric cantrips (guidance is notable - especially if the moon druid spends a lot of time in beast forms).

Finally, as you suggested, a lore bard could also work well.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Evocation Wizard. The party likely doesn't have an intelligence character, and they are really good at blowing things up (bonus that you aren't blowing up allies when they do).

This right here. Any Wizard archetype would be helpful to this party, I think.

[ZorroGames]

Play what you want. You should make almost any mix work in 5e.

[Nidgit]

Any full caster can work well since your party would likely value more support and every caster brings different benefits to the table. Any Wizard, a blastier Cleric like Arcana, Knowledge, or Light, or Lore Bard are all good options. Sorcerer makes for a premier buffer (and your paladin and rogue would LOVE a Twinned Haste) but there's less margin for error when building one and the ideal subclass here (Divine Sorcerer) is in Xanathar's.

For reference, the module your group is running, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, goes through 8th level and the Rise of Tiamat follow-up goes through 16th.

[Cikomyr]

Go Sun Monk and throw Kamehameha for the fun of it.

[djreynolds]

Man_Over_Game is correct, I would run an Arcana Cleric.

At 6th level your channel divinity is awesome, Spell Breaker

8th level is potent cantrip

A 14 in dexterity, and scale mail is as good as chainmail.

I think an elven arcana cleric would be real good, grab wood elf. You got wisdom and dexterity and bows and short swords

Grab stealth in a background and you can help out the rogue.

The paladin is frontline, so maintaining bless is tough.

[Supermouse]

OK, so I was talking to the DM right now to get more information about the group.

It's a Circle of the Moon Druid, an Oath of Vengeance Paladin, a Fiend Pact Tome Warlock and an Assassin Rogue. So the Tome Warlock has a little bit of utility magic.

Either way, the DM also said that I'd be free to pick up other suplements, so basing on what we concluded the group needs, I'll take a look both at an Arcana Domain Cleric and at the Divine Soul Sorcerer, since with those classes I'll have the flexibility to bring to the party both arcane utility/blasts and divine buffs/heals.

Thanks for the help everyone.

[Supermouse]

I made a thing.
My idea is being a backline character and not wade into melee (I'll probably not even have a weapon), so I didn't do any Shillelag shenanigans or picked the SCAG cantrips. I picked 2 damage cantrips (an attack one and a save one) and a bunch of utility ones. Ritual Caster may improve my utility, and I can use the fact that I'll start at 5th level to already start with a bunch of rituals in my book instead of hoping to find them. Seeing that most rituals are in the first 3 spell levels, I can take at least the most important ones (Identify, Unseen Servant, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing).
We use standard array instead of rolling or point buy. I kept Int at 12 to have at least a small bonus in knowledge checks, and dumped Cha instead of Str because I'm afraid of encumbrance due to the medium armor.
The background is faction agent due to preferences, but since Insight is already in the Cleric's skill list and it's one of the better picks, I picked it as Cleric and used the background one to get a skill that I'd never be able to pick otherwise (Acrobatics) and can help me not be screwed by some nasty stuff.

Variant Human
Cleric, Arcana Domain
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16 (18)
Cha 8

Background: Faction Agent
Skills: Insight, Religion, Arcana, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth
Languages: Common, Elvish, Draconic
Feat: Ritual Caster (Wizard) - Spells chosen: Find Familiar, Identify

Cantrips: Chill Touch/Ray of Frost, Mage Hand, Guidance, Sacred Flames, Light, Thaumaturgy


The Divine Soul looked too stretched out to me. It has 2 cool spell lists, but only 16 spells to learn, and that makes it very tough to fill the "utility spellcaster" role.

Edit: I had took "Persuasion" so as to not get totally screwed when I needed to talk to someone, but with my -1 to CHA checks, there's no reason t invest in it, I guess. So I traded it for Religion, to cover a bit more of the knowledge area.

[Man_Over_Game]

Good call. If I remember correctly, there's only one redundant spell when combining the Arcana spell list, the Cleric spell list, and Ritual Caster: Wizard. It's probably one of my favorite utility specialists in the game, rivaling Arcane Trickster with Ritual Caster.

Make sure to talk to your DM about starting with Find Familiar as one of your starting rituals, and how that plays into your starting condition.

[Man_Over_Game]

In case anybody missed it:

OK, so I was talking to the DM right now to get more information about the group.

It's a [...] Fiend Pact Tome Warlock[...].

[Sception]

Party seems to lack a high int cjaravter for lore checks. Best options there are wizard or the playtest artificer. UA content sounds like its outside of your available character options, so that leaves wizard. Lots of options there - I like abjurer & diviner. Have a soft spot for necromancer, but the school isn't super well supported in 5e outside of the animate dead, and while that spell is very strong for quitr a few levels, especially in the hands of a necro wizard, it can get a bit awkward to role play around, especially with a paladin at the table.

Otherwise, there really isn't a wizard specialty that I'd call outright bad, so I'd recommend reading up on available options and picking one that appeals to you thematically, then build optimal strategies and spell preparations around that choice. Try searching youtube for treatmonk's assorted spell and wizard guide videos.

[Man_Over_Game]

Party seems to lack a high int cjaravter for lore checks. Best options there are wizard or the playtest artificer. UA content sounds like its outside of your available character options, so that leaves wizard. Lots of options there - I like abjurer & diviner. Have a soft spot for necromancer, but the school isn't super well supported in 5e outside of the animate dead, and while that spell is very strong for quitr a few levels, especially in the hands of a necro wizard, it can get a bit awkward to role play around, especially with a paladin at the table.

Otherwise, there really isn't a wizard specialty that I'd call outright bad, so I'd recommend reading up on available options and picking one that appeals to you thematically, then build optimal strategies and spell preparations around that choice. Try searching youtube for treatmonk's assorted spell and wizard guide videos.

If Wizard is to be considered, I'd recommend something that'd aid with damage mitigation, as the party lacks a healer (with the Druid being a Moon Druid). There's really only a few options that'd assist in that regard:

• Enchantment, to stop enemies from dealing damage or convert them to receive damage on your team's behalf.
• Abjuration, to create literal shields for your party.
• Divination, to flip saving throws to save your team, while also scouting ahead for potential threats.

[LudicSavant]

In case anybody missed it:

I had missed that new information, thanks.

the party lacks a healer (with the Druid being a Moon Druid).

I'm not really sure where you got the idea that Moon Druids suck at healing, because they simply don't. Last time I played one I was able to heal thousands of hit points per adventuring day, and still spend most of my life in animal form or using lockdown spells.

That said, just because a subclass can be good at something doesn't necessarily mean that they will be; there's more than one way to play the same class. Ask your party what they need.

[nickl_2000]

I'm not really sure where MOG gets the idea that Moon Druids suck at healing, because they simply don't. Last time I played one I was able to heal thousands of hit points per adventuring day, and still spend most of my life in animal form or using lockdown spells.

That said, just because a subclass can be good at something doesn't necessarily mean that they will be; ask your party what they need.

I played a moon druid for levels 1-9 or so as the only healer (the only other healing available was the fighter with second wind). I did perfectly fine as the healer in that group. There were some times I had to drop out of form early, but it worked out fine in the end.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm not really sure where MOG gets the idea that Moon Druids suck at healing, because they simply don't. Last time I played one I was able to heal thousands of hit points per adventuring day, and still spend most of my life in animal form or using lockdown spells.

That said, just because a subclass can be good at something doesn't necessarily mean that they will be; ask your party what they need.

My main concern is that many Moon Druids ignore the Druid part of their character and focus strictly on the beast form. Personally, I think that a well educated Moon Druid is probably one of the most oppressing, versatile things someone could ever play. But that's not the trend I've seen whenever it comes up.

[Supermouse]

Nah, I already know from talking to the group that the Moon Druid stays in beast form 24/7, that's why I was leaning towards a Bard, Divine Soul or now Cleric. That way I can at least have Healing Words to bring back people who fall during combat.

I like playing Wizards, but I think a Wizard would make the overall group more fragile than they are right now.

[LudicSavant]

I played a moon druid for levels 1-9 or so as the only healer (the only other healing available was the fighter with second wind). I did perfectly fine as the healer in that group. There were some times I had to drop out of form early, but it worked out fine in the end.

Yeah.

Nah, I already know from talking to the group that the Moon Druid stays in beast form 24/7, that's why I was leaning towards a Bard, Divine Soul or now Cleric. That way I can at least have Healing Words to bring back people who fall during combat.

Makes sense, though I'd just note that says more about the player than the class.

At the very least, if your Moon Druid isn't using all their spell slots every day, tell them to convert them all into Goodberries right before each long rest (due to the 24 hour duration, your party will then have a huge stock of Goodberries available the next day, without cutting into the Druid's slots for said day).

[Supermouse]

The DM will be a bit stingy with my wealth, even with me starting at 5th level (I'll start with 575 gold and the starter items from the class), and after reading what Spirit Guardians do, I found the Shillelagh shenanigans fun enough that maybe I'll put down my pride to try it.

Variant Human
Cleric, Arcana Domain
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 8

Background: Faction Agent
Skills: Insight, Religion, Arcana, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth
Languages: Common, Elvish, Draconic
Feat: Magic Initiate (Druid) - Spells chosen: Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Endure Elements
Warcaster (lvl 4)

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Mage Hand, Guidance, Sacred Flames, Light, Thaumaturgy


With Shillelagh on and a shield I can't use Thorn Whip right? Maybe I change it to Poison Spray as a ranged cantrip, and it leaves me able to pick Spare the Dying.

This will make me lose the utility from Ritual Caster, but at least I won't have to worry with spending my meager resources into getting more rituals for my book, and neither will have to depend on the DM's good will to leave some ritual scrolls for me to learn. The loss of the rituals won't hinder the utility too much, right? In any case, I may convince the Warlock to pick the ritual invocation, since it's way better than the Ritual Caster feat. This will also change me from the backline spell flinging guy I was going to make into a frontliner, but it might be fun, I'm not used to play as a frontliner.
Also, he gave me a magic item, at least: a Periapt of Wound Closure

[LudicSavant]

Arcana Clerics are pretty strong in general, and can be built both as frontliners or backliners (or switch between as they like).

The frontliner varieties of Arcana Cleric are, IMHO, best utilized in parties that don't have many (or possibly any) other frontliners, since one of the things they're really good at is punishing people trying to move past them.

Allies who can cause foes to flee (and therefore provoke) also match well with them.

With Shillelagh on and a shield I can't use Thorn Whip right?

The War Caster feat would solve the issue for you (as well as make your opportunity attacks particularly deadly, and make your Concentration much harder to break).

[Sception]

Between the druid and paladin, the party should have plenty of healing. Moon druid should if anything be a better healer than most other druids because moon druids arent casting spells un comvat, leaving more slots to patch up the party afterwards, which is the best time for healing anyway, since most healing spells are more efficient outside of combat regardless.

But even if you need to pick up some slack, a wizard is perfectly able to do so through various damage mitigation options. And as a 5th level wizard, you'd only be two levels away from one of the best combat heals in the game in polymorph. Paladin about to go down? Cast polymorph and suddenly they have a whole extra tyrannosaurus's worth of hp to work with.


And as much as the party might be light on healing if the druid is stubbornly set on letting 3/4 of their class go to rot, your party is also missing a utility/ritualist caster and lore master. Identifying monster strengths and weaknesses, casting detect magic, tiny hut, and water breathing without using spell slots, keeping enemy casters at bay with counterspell, moving the party around with teleport - these are important jobs too, and far harder to replicate by throwing gold at healing potions.


All that said, it really is helpful to have someone in the party who can cast healing word and raise dead, so it's not like a cleric or bard would be a bad call. That said, if you do go with one of those, I'd still grab some extra knowledge skills with the sage background and put a few extra points in intelligence even if it's otherwise a dump stat. Also you should probably grab the ritual caster feat early on and learn or memorize some useful utility spells, and pick a subclass that will grant access to some useful wizarding spells that your chosen class might otherwise lacks on their list - spells like polymorph, teleport or dimension door, counterspell if you can get it, etc.

Bard can already pick up a couple of these with bardic secrets plus some skill bonuses to help with knowledge checks. Lore bard can get a few more, and further knowledge bonuses, but might be going a bit overboard and arguably other bard types have better features. I personally like glamour (xanathar so not available to you) or valor, as long as you understand that 'valor' means 'casty bard that has good ac without spending sprll slots on personal defense' and not 'bard who makes weapon attacks.' For that you'd want a sword bard, probably multiclassed with hexblade. But neither sword bard nor hexblade is available to you, so id stick to thinking of bards in general as 'enchanter wizards with an abridged spell list outside of their specialty, and in exchange they get to cast healing word and have some more support oriented class features.

...

If you go cleric, maybe knowledge (good features for a party lore master, but not the best domain spells) or trickery (has meh features but great domain spells), or maybe arcana if you think the campaign is likely to run long enough to reach its higher level features, but im no cleric expert, so you can find better advice there.

[Greywander]

Tome warlocks can get an invocation that lets them copy any ritual spell into a spellbook. Basically, it's Ritual Caster, but for all classes at the same time, includes things like, say, paladin spells that you can't normally get with Ritual Caster (I don't know if paladins have any ritual spells, though). As such, Ritual Caster would be redundant, but if they weren't a tomelock then it would be a good choice.

I think cleric (any) is a solid choice. Honestly, the cleric is such a powerful and versatile class, that I don't think you could go wrong adding one to any group. It's also one of the easier casters to play, if you're new to the game or, as the OP said, a bit out of practice.

If I could offer a dissenting opinion, though: Knowledge cleric 1 / Diviner wizard X. Medium armor and a shield, plus 1st level cleric spells, plus proficiency and expertise on two INT skills, all on top of what is basically a full wizard, just delayed by one level. WIS 14 is enough, focus on nonoffensive cleric spells where your spell attack bonus or spell save DC won't matter as much (Bless, Shield of Faith, and Healing Word are all viable).

If you do go Arcana cleric, Sacred Flame and Word of Radiance are still going to be among your best offensive cantrips. If you'd like something with a nifty rider effect over just straight damage, you could swap Sacred Flame with Chill Touch, which is my go-to attack cantrip for a wizard. When the rider comes up, it makes a huge difference. Get Word of Radiance at some point, though, as Potent Spellcasting means you'll be adding damage to every creature you hit with it, making it very effective if you ever go into melee. You can also exclude allies from being hit, making it better than Thunderclap or Sword Burst. I'd go for at least one utility cantrip from wizard, though. There are a lot of great choices: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Mold Earth, Shape Water, or Message would all be good choices, if someone else in the party doesn't already have them.

[Mork]

I basically played greyawander his proposal. I had a lot of fun playing knowledge cleric 1 / wizard (illusionist) X
Half plate, shield, DEX 2 is a AC of 19, so even though you don't have very many HP, you have lots of AC (and can even cast shield). The knowledge cleric gives you healing word, bless, sanctuary, and protection from evil/poison whatever necessary, and most importantly expertise in arcana. That way you can really be the all knowing wizard.
I went Vhuman, and took keen mind as my starting feat, to really lean into being the knowledge base of the party (STR8, DEX 14, CON 10, INT15(+1), WIS14, CHA 10). And then upped INT at lvl 4 and 8.

[Sception]

Ah, i missed that the warlock had the tome. Ritual caster is then not necessary, though wizard still has a number of non-ritual utility spells worth knowing.

The cleric 1 / wizard x suggestion is certainly worth considering.

[MrStabby]

Of the things mentioned already, I think wizard and arcana cleric are the best. Leaning more towards Wizard to cover Int needs of the party.

I would throw out there the Monk as an option.

If you think of the party not in terms of roles it covers, but in terms of weaknesses it can exploit then I think Monk has a space. Stunning strike targets Con saves. With wildshaped moon druid, rogue, paladin and fiend pact warlock... what con saves are you going to be targeting?

Monk can also let you fill a few different roles. Long death can tank well so can help bolster the front lines. Shadowmonk has exceptional mobility so can ensure you can support the rogue wherever they get to (as well as providing some spells that are really useful). Some casters can do horrific things to the party and being able to do things like teleport over to the guy who landed a level 5 hold person spell on the party and break their concentration is really good.