Need super strict ruling

[Sigreid]

We've gone pretty far from the OP request. The direct book wording is they can, but they will not. It's the same as I live in an area where I can smoke pot without any risk of getting in trouble, but i won't because of my personal choices.

[Segev]

We've gone pretty far from the OP request. The direct book wording is they can, but they will not. It's the same as I live in an area where I can smoke pot without any risk of getting in trouble, but i won't because of my personal choices.

Right. So they can, but (most) don’t. It doesn’t say they lose their powers if they do. But other druids will be disgusted by it in the same way a straight-laced evangelical community would be by the youth leader wearing midriff-bearing cutoff shorts when she works with their teenagers.

[Sigreid]

Right. So they can, but (most) don’t. It doesn’t say they lose their powers if they do. But other druids will be disgusted by it in the same way a straight-laced evangelical community would be by the youth leader wearing midriff-bearing cutoff shorts when she works with their teenagers.

Actually, it doesn't say that most won't, it says that none will. It doesn't matter to me if a particular table allows it or doesn't, but the language in the book leaves no room for for exceptions.

[diplomancer]

While, as a DM, I am definitely on the side of NO, as I believe that WILL not is actually stronger than CANNOT, I do find it amusing that Druids have proficiency in armors that they will not wear. I always wonder "How did they learn it?" ;)

[Naanomi]

While, as a DM, I am definitely on the side of NO, as I believe that WILL not is actually stronger than CANNOT, I do find it amusing that Druids have proficiency in armors that they will not wear. I always wonder "How did they learn it?" ;)

There are medium armors they can wear... heck, there are heavy armors they can wear if they get proficiency somehow

A fighter with a religious taboo against bladed weapons still understands weapon use enough to know how, even if she refuses to do so

[Kyutaru]

Actually, it doesn't say that most won't, it says that none will. It doesn't matter to me if a particular table allows it or doesn't, but the language in the book leaves no room for for exceptions.

Though it's not any particular table that permits the exceptions, it's official Wizards content. The books have updates and rule clarifications online, one of which suggests Druids aren't literally banned from metal armor.

[diplomancer]

Now I'm imagining Druidic Schools having a bunch of Dragonscale armor stashed somewhere just for training new pupils.

Though it's not any particular table that permits the exceptions, it's official Wizards content. The books have updates and rule clarifications online, one of which suggests Druids aren't literally banned from metal armor.

Actually, what the official Wizards content says is that it is not going to "break anything in the game system", and that it is up to the DM. But basically everything is up to the DM anyway, so the only relevant thing is that it does not break the game, which we already know. It remains a houserule though (not that there is anything wrong with that )

[nickl_2000]

Now I'm imagining Druidic Schools having a bunch of Dragonscale armor stashed somewhere just for training new pupils.

Why not? Fighter schools would have all weapons there, even something like blowdarts. This would be pretty logical.

[allthingslich]

They just won't wear it. I suggest knocking the druid unconscious and put him in cursed armor so he can't take it off afterwards.

This may not relate to the same situation in the OP, but I'm using this in my next game in some fashion. Brilliant.

[diplomancer]

Why not? Fighter schools would have all weapons there, even something like blowdarts. This would be pretty logical.

Well, Dragon Scale Mail is a very rare magic item, to begin with (unlike blowdarts). Keeping it stashed away in Druidic schools just to train new pupils is weird.

But that is not my original point anyway. By RAW, Druids are proficient in Half-Plate. But they will not wear it. How did they learn how to use it? (always assuming that Armor Proficiency is something gained by training, which I think does not make much sense, but people who have tried wearing armor in real life are free to correct me about it if they want to).

[nickl_2000]

Well, Dragon Scale Mail is a very rare magic item, to begin with (unlike blowdarts). Keeping it stashed away in Druidic schools just to train new pupils is weird.

Non magical armor made of dragonscale would be fine. Also there is spiked armor (with wooden spikes power RAW possibility) from SCAG is a thing. That certainly would be available to any druid school.

[Segev]

Actually, it doesn't say that most won't, it says that none will. It doesn't matter to me if a particular table allows it or doesn't, but the language in the book leaves no room for for exceptions.

And when the books say "always chaotic evil," we have precedent clarifying they mean "the number who aren't are such a vanishingly small exception that they don't bear mentioning in a monster manual entry."

Exceptions exist to nearly everything.

Though this conversation now has me imagining druids who have illicit stashes of metal armor they wear in private, shamefully salacious enjoyment. "Oh, you're so civilized, you bad boy. Look at that polish on those metal pauldrons. That cold, cold steel. That clean-shaven, well-groomed, freshly-bathed and manicured you, you."

"Archdruid, sir! The treants want an emergency meeting! They're about to declare war on the beaverfolk!" "I TOLD YOU TO KNOCK BEFORE ENTERING MY SANCTUM!" "Oh, Sir..." turns away in shameful judgment.

[darknite]

Um, I think the OP asked for a super strict ruling?

Are there outliers and DM exceptions and exceptions for All-SpintMail's-Eve? Sure. That could happen. But RAW, no metal.

[Segev]

Um, I think the OP asked for a super strict ruling?

Are there outliers and DM exceptions and exceptions for All-SpintMail's-Eve? Sure. That could happen. But RAW, no metal.

No, the super-strict ruling is that they absolutely can, with no consequences save social. They don't, but they can, wear metal armor, and no rules say otherwise nor spell out consequences to them, mechanically, for doing so.

Note that a Charmed creature can't attack the one who Charmed him. Not "won't" or "doesn't," but "can't." And it's all but certain the inability stems from a "can't bring himself to," not a physical inability or a horrible consequence should he do so.

Druids are not compelled by their class not to. They do not suffer any mechanical effects for doing so. They "don't" wear metal armor. But they absolutely can. So if the player says his does...he does.

[diplomancer]

Non magical armor made of dragonscale would be fine. Also there is spiked armor (with wooden spikes power RAW possibility) from SCAG is a thing. That certainly would be available to any druid school.

Are half-plates-made-from-special-materials-but-still-easy-to-get available at Druid schools? If there aren't, how did Druids learn to wear them? If there are, why don't the Druids just let adventuring druids buy those?

No, the super-strict ruling is that they absolutely can, with no consequences save social. They don't, but they can, wear metal armor, and no rules say otherwise nor spell out consequences to them, mechanically, for doing so.

Note that a Charmed creature can't attack the one who Charmed him. Not "won't" or "doesn't," but "can't." And it's all but certain the inability stems from a "can't bring himself to," not a physical inability or a horrible consequence should he do so.

Druids are not compelled by their class not to. They do not suffer any mechanical effects for doing so. They "don't" wear metal armor. But they absolutely can. So if the player says his does...he does.

A ruling that does not allow a Druid to use metal armor is more strict than a ruling that allows him to, whatever the RAW is. Therefore, a super strict ruling means that the character will not be allowed by the DM to wear metal armor.

[Hail Tempus]

No, the super-strict ruling is that they absolutely can, with no consequences save social. They don't, but they can, wear metal armor, and no rules say otherwise nor spell out consequences to them, mechanically, for doing so.

Note that a Charmed creature can't attack the one who Charmed him. Not "won't" or "doesn't," but "can't." And it's all but certain the inability stems from a "can't bring himself to," not a physical inability or a horrible consequence should he do so.

Druids are not compelled by their class not to. They do not suffer any mechanical effects for doing so. They "don't" wear metal armor. But they absolutely can. So if the player says his does...he does.

No, this is not a super-strict ruling. This is a super-permissive ruling, where the DM allows the player to do whatever he wants. That's a perfectly fine ruling, if the DM wants to be permissive.

But, a super-strict ruling is-"Your Druid isn't willing to put on the metal armor. Let's move on."

[Hail Tempus]

Are half-plates-made-from-special-materials-but-still-easy-to-get available at Druid schools? If there aren't, how did Druids learn to wear them? If there are, why don't the Druids just let adventuring druids buy those?

Druids are proficient with half-plate because there's a possibility of finding half-plate that isn't made of metal.

They're also proficient with half-plate because the PHB says they are.

Let's not overthink this.

[nickl_2000]

Are special materials but easily available half-plates available at Druid schools? If there aren't, how did Druids learn to wear them? If there are, why don't the Druids just let adventuring druids buy those?

In a world I created or ran? The answer is yes. They are common enough for adventurers to get and can be sold and bought in a larger city.

I think the lack of unique materials for flavor of armor and druids is ridiculous.

[diplomancer]

Druids are proficient with half-plate because there's a possibility of finding half-plate that isn't made of metal.

They're also proficient with half-plate because the PHB says they are.

Let's not overthink this.

Hey, I agree. I just find it amusing to think about how they acquired that proficiency.

In a world I created or ran? The answer is yes. They are common enough for adventurers to get and can be sold and bought in a larger city.

I think the lack of unique materials for flavor of armor and druids is ridiculous.

Which is fine for your home game, but is not the assumption of the PHB, which is from where I'm reasoning.

[darknite]

No, the super-strict ruling is that they absolutely can, with no consequences save social. They don't, but they can, wear metal armor, and no rules say otherwise nor spell out consequences to them, mechanically, for doing so.

Note that a Charmed creature can't attack the one who Charmed him. Not "won't" or "doesn't," but "can't." And it's all but certain the inability stems from a "can't bring himself to," not a physical inability or a horrible consequence should he do so.

Druids are not compelled by their class not to. They do not suffer any mechanical effects for doing so. They "don't" wear metal armor. But they absolutely can. So if the player says his does...he does.

Then we differ in opinion. To me "won't" means that in the base case a Druid won't wear metal armor because it would violate their beliefs. Druids take their beliefs seriously and when a player elects to play a certain type of character one of the elements of 'roleplaying' is that they attempt to portray important elements of their character's beliefs. If a druid were tied down and forced to don metal armor and coerced into walking around in it with at dagger-point, then they could probably still cast spells and otherwise behave normally (ie no mechanical restrictions). But it's not something they would want to do.

Can there be games where the DM and players have agreed that Druids are hunky dory with all proficient armors regardless of their ferrous content? Sure. But that's not the base case.

[nickl_2000]

Which is fine for your home game, but is not the assumption of the PHB, which is from where I'm reasoning.

So then they have magical armor made of unique materials to learn on (allowed per dmg). How does a wizard learn how to use a magical wand? Or a cleric a magical staff? I would assume a school would have access, it's not like magical armor would go bad over the years .

Also they can learn on spiked armor which according to SCAG can have wooden spikes.

[darknite]

So then they have magical armor made of unique materials to learn on (allowed per dmg). How does a wizard learn how to use a magical wand? Or a cleric a magical staff? I would assume a school would have access, it's not like magical armor would go bad over the years .

Also they can learn on spiked armor which according to SCAG can have wooden spikes.

Hide is a Medium Armor. Leather is a Light Armor.

[Unoriginal]

Note that 5e does not make any distinction for weapons made out of bone/ivory/other substances. Aside for effects and spells such as Heat Metal, which only work on metal, or the rule for breaking items, which make it so more fragile materials are easier to break.

The same would apply for shields and armors, logically. I think the shields in Chult are described as non-metalic, but I might be wrong.

[Segev]

Are half-plates-made-from-special-materials-but-still-easy-to-get available at Druid schools? If there aren't, how did Druids learn to wear them? If there are, why don't the Druids just let adventuring druids buy those?



A ruling that does not allow a Druid to use metal armor is more strict than a ruling that allows him to, whatever the RAW is. Therefore, a super strict ruling means that the character will not be allowed by the DM to wear metal armor.

No, this is not a super-strict ruling. This is a super-permissive ruling, where the DM allows the player to do whatever he wants. That's a perfectly fine ruling, if the DM wants to be permissive.

But, a super-strict ruling is-"Your Druid isn't willing to put on the metal armor. Let's move on."

You're confusing "strict" for "restrictive." It's not surprising, as they're related words, but they mean different things. A "strict reading of the rules" means you take exactly what they say, and embellish as little as possible. That doesn't mean you take the most restrictive reading you can, especially if you have to change a word in the RAW to make the meaning accurate.

A restrictive reading says, "They don't, which means you can't." A strict reading says that "they don't" means that it's just not done. Just like drow don't live on the surface. But nothing says they can't, so if YOUR drow does, or YOUR druid does, that's up to you.

If the OP were asking for a restrictive ruling, he wouldn't have to ask. The most restrictive ruling is always to deny options. There's no question. What he's asking for is the strictest, most accurate ruling on what the RAW are actually saying.

[Naanomi]

Are half-plates-made-from-special-materials-but-still-easy-to-get available at Druid schools? If there aren't, how did Druids learn to wear them? If there are, why don't the Druids just let adventuring druids buy those

Presumably the same way my Fighter-Folk-Hero farmer who never had more than two copper to his name knows how to use Full Plate that costs more than his entire province combined, or my noble holy knight only trained in courtly combat can use a whip or exotic eastern Polearm... I was never specifically trained in their use, but I’m good enough at stuff like them that I can adapt quickly

[Kyutaru]

No, this is not a super-strict ruling. This is a super-permissive ruling, where the DM allows the player to do whatever he wants. That's a perfectly fine ruling, if the DM wants to be permissive.

But, a super-strict ruling is-"Your Druid isn't willing to put on the metal armor. Let's move on."

Super strict rulings can go either way, they're not always about denial. Warhammer 40k has plenty of rules lawyers adhering to the strict interpretations of the RAW that permit things that clearly aren't meant to be.

If they didn't wear metal armor because of connections with the Fey, it may make sense to avoid Iron out of respect or tradition. Instead, they don't wear metal armor because it's "too civilized". So what happens when they multi-class and start becoming super civilized? Is an Alchemist/Druid contradicting itself? It makes use of all the chemicals and bombs of a more scientific age limited to civilized society.

[Rukelnikov]

You're confusing "strict" for "restrictive." It's not surprising, as they're related words, but they mean different things. A "strict reading of the rules" means you take exactly what they say, and embellish as little as possible. That doesn't mean you take the most restrictive reading you can, especially if you have to change a word in the RAW to make the meaning accurate.

A restrictive reading says, "They don't, which means you can't." A strict reading says that "they don't" means that it's just not done. Just like drow don't live on the surface. But nothing says they can't, so if YOUR drow does, or YOUR druid does, that's up to you.

If the OP were asking for a restrictive ruling, he wouldn't have to ask. The most restrictive ruling is always to deny options. There's no question. What he's asking for is the strictest, most accurate ruling on what the RAW are actually saying.

But the book doesn't say "Druids don't wear armor made of metal" it says "Druids will not wear armor made of metal"

A strict reading would be:

"Druids will not wear armor made of metal"

"X character wears armor made of metal"

Thus X character is not a Druid

Therefore, it cannot use Druid powers

[darknite]

Strict means adhering to the letter of the rule, ie a strict interpretation. The letter of the rule is that Druids will not wear metal armor or use metal shields. The application of the rule, as we know, does not have to be strict as long as players agree to play that way.

[Kyutaru]

But the book doesn't say "Druids don't wear armor made of metal" it says "Druids will not wear armor made of metal"

A strict reading would be:

"Druids will not wear armor made of metal"

"X character wears armor made of metal"

Thus X character is not a Druid

Therefore, it cannot use Druid powers

I cast Dominate and order you to equip metal armor. You stop being a Druid.

[Hail Tempus]

YouA restrictive reading says, "They don't, which means you can't." A strict reading says that "they don't" means that it's just not done. Just like drow don't live on the surface. But nothing says they can't, so if YOUR drow does, or YOUR druid does, that's up to you.

This is not a good analogy. There's nothing in the rules or in the fluff stating that Drow don't live on the surface. In the official game materials, there are plenty of examples of Drow living on the surface (such as in Dragon Heist).

The rules for the Druid is pretty straightforward- Druids won't wear metal. A strict interpretation of that statement is that no Druid will put on metal armor.