What good alignment is Thor?

[HorizonWalker]

If you impose a societal order in which the elderly are forced to die in combat, possibly by death squads, then you're Evil. Doesn't matter why you're doing it, that's an Evil thing to do and you're Evil for doing it. The Lawful Good option would more likely just be instituting a draft on old people, and letting nature take its course. And even then, that's a bit more Neutral than Good.

[woweedd]

If you impose a societal order in which the elderly are forced to die in combat, possibly by death squads, then you're Evil. Doesn't matter why you're doing it, that's an Evil thing to do and you're Evil for doing it. The Lawful Good option would more likely just be instituting a draft on old people, and letting nature take its course. And even then, that's a bit more Neutral than Good.

I mean...The social order wasn't really Thor's decision either way. "Honorable death" was in the term sof the bet. He just helped condition Dwarven society so that as many of them would fulfill conditions as possible.

[paddyfool]

---

I mean...The social order wasn't really Thor's decision either way. "Honorable death" was in the term sof the bet. He just helped condition Dwarven society so that as many of them would fulfill conditions as possible.

You need to read HorizonWalker's comment in the context of The Pilgrim's previous comment. It's not that what Thor is doing is Evil; it's that The Pilgrim's idea of what a LG Thor would do would be Evil.

Now, of course, I'm left wondering how a death-by-combat draft could be instituted in as Good a way as possible...

[HorizonWalker]

You need to read HorizonWalker's comment in the context of The Pilgrim's previous comment. It's not that what Thor is doing is Evil; it's that The Pilgrim's idea of what a LG Thor would do would be Evil.

Now, of course, I'm left wondering how a death-by-combat draft could be instituted in as Good a way as possible...

Well, according to The Giant, it's not necessarily "death by combat" that you need- it's death with honor. Solution: military also runs supply caravans through dangerous terrain, because 1) those supplies are necessary, and 2) that oughta kill a few of the old geezers.

[woweedd]

---

You need to read HorizonWalker's comment in the context of The Pilgrim's previous comment. It's not that what Thor is doing is Evil; it's that The Pilgrim's idea of what a LG Thor would do would be Evil.

Now, of course, I'm left wondering how a death-by-combat draft could be instituted in as Good a way as possible...

Probably "if it's literally the only option to keep your soul from eternal torment in the shadowy domain of Hel".

[The Pilgrim]

This might be as a good moment as any to remember that in this comic we have a LG God voting Yes to pre-emptively killing everyone in the world on behalf of the safety of their souls. Not to mention a certain order of LG Paladins who were given a free ticket to exterminate sentient races for the Greater Good.

So I don't think I'm getting too far of what constitutes "LG Godly Behaviour" by suggesting that a LG God might force their followers into a deathfight if that were the only way to save their souls from falling into an Evil domain.

[HorizonWalker]

This might be as a good moment as any to remember that in this comic we have a LG God voting Yes to pre-emptively killing everyone in the world on behalf of the safety of their souls. Not to mention a certain order of LG Paladins who were given a free ticket to exterminate sentient races for the Greater Good.

So I don't think I'm getting too far of what constitutes "LG Godly Behaviour" by suggesting that a LG God might force their followers into a deathfight if that were the only way to save their souls from falling into an Evil domain.

There is, I think, an appreciable difference between "Once every few thousand years, in an emergency, kill everyone so their souls can go to an afterlife, because the alternative is letting them be eaten by the Snarl and getting no afterlife at all" and "On a daily basis, have death squads hunt down the elderly so they die in battle and go to the correct afterlife."

[Morty]

I think a question we ought to ask is: how does our understanding of Thor and his relationship to Durkon change if we decide he's Neutral Good rather than Chaotic Good?

[Fyraltari]

I think a question we ought to ask is: how does our understanding of Thor and his relationship to Durkon change if we decide he's Neutral Good rather than Chaotic Good?

There isn't a "we" to decided pretty much everyone ho cares makes their own guess. But discussing this gives people other interpretations of the alignment system so that can be worthwhile.

[FujinAkari]

No, the vast majority of times he's been obviously chaotic has been when we've been shown his actions, or we've heard his views on rules. Other than Durkon's WWTD scene, every other scene I can think of as evidence for his Chaotic nature has been Thor in person.

Grey Wolf

I think you are misremembering a few :)

knocking up a fertility goddess while drunk and striking down trees with lightning are explicitly shown as Durkon telling stories of Thor, not as things Thor is directly doing (and the latter is explicitly refuted by Thor himself.

The only one left that is chaotic is this one which, if I wanted to be SUPER-PEDANTIC could be argued to not be chaotic at all, and the angels are simply mis-interpretting Thor as being more reckless, while he actually is just being goofy and fun while also being calculated.

However, I think it is more fair to say that Thor is Neutral Good who gets rumbustious when he gets drunk :P

[hamishspence]

(the latter is explicitly refuted by Thor himself.

Thor says in effect that he occasionally smites trees, but not because they're Evil, and that the Dwarves making a whole dogma out of it is their mistake.

The only one left that is chaotic is this one

Another possible "Thor being Chaotic" scene is him breaking the standard rules for Control Weather:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html

knocking up a fertility goddess while drunk and striking down trees with lightning are explicitly shown as Durkon telling stories of Thor, not as things Thor is directly doing

I think it's more a flashback than a story.

Just like Shojo and Miko here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think you are misremembering a few

No, it is you who seems to be misremembering Thor being dismissive of rules and grasping at any straw to break them given even half a reason to.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

Thor strikes me as being generally disdainful of rules but begrudgingly going along with them because he understands they're are (or at least some of them) are necessary.

I feel like his general demeanor leans more Chaotic, but if he were NG I wouldn't be particularly surprised by it.

[The Pilgrim]

There is, I think, an appreciable difference between "Once every few thousand years, in an emergency, kill everyone so their souls can go to an afterlife, because the alternative is letting them be eaten by the Snarl and getting no afterlife at all" and "On a daily basis, have death squads hunt down the elderly so they die in battle and go to the correct afterlife."

No no no, you got it wrong. The role of the death squads would be not to hunt down all the elderly. Only those who break the Law. Regular elderly would follow law and tradition and get themselves killed properly without the need of intervention.

I mean, in #1166 we have that dwarf miner saying he was thinking about picking a fight with that old dwarf that just got swallowed, in order to allow him a proper death. So, if murdering your friends for their own good is kosher in dwarven society, it wouldn't be a big leap to have laws regulating it and public armed servants enforcing it.

Note that I'm not saying that this is how I think a LG God should behave. I'm just pointing out that such would be the behaviour expected, given how LG Gods have been shown to act in this comic (and many others, BTW).

Though, of course, a LG deity would have never got into that bet, to begin with.

[FujinAkari]

Thor says in effect that he occasionally smites trees, but not because they're Evil, and that the Dwarves making a whole dogma out of it is their mistake.

Yeah, that's what I said. I'm just pointing out that Thor has directly supported the idea that Durkon's stories about him aren't necessarily reliable.

I think it's more a flashback than a story.

A flashback to an event Durkon wasn't present at?

No, it is you who seems to be misremembering

Fine, I withdraw my theory, there is no reason to be rude. Geez

[Fyraltari]

I mean, in #1166 we have that dwarf miner saying he was thinking about picking a fight with that old dwarf that just got swallowed, in order to allow him a proper death. So, if murdering your friends for their own good is kosher in dwarven society, it wouldn't be a big leap to have laws regulating it and public armed servants enforcing it.

I'm pretty sure the implication is meant to be that Kandro would willingly escalate the fight to a lethal one, not that Hoskin would bring an axe to a fist-fight. Also a society allowing the same for something is in no way equivalent to a society forcing it to everyone. I'd elaborate but every example I can think of are subjects to hot political debates in many place because humans are terrible sometimes and I don't want to get banned.

Note that I'm not saying that this is how I think a LG God should behave. I'm just pointing out that such would be the behaviour expected, given how LG Gods have been shown to act in this comic (and many others, BTW).

I don't remember any god being identified as LG. I don't recall any god being identified as any alignment except for Nergal's claim that death gods should be Neutral which means nothing.

Though, of course, a LG deity would have never got into that bet, to begin with.

Why, they don't get drunk?

[Kish]

Why, they don't get drunk?

Logically, if you're continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos with quadrillions of lives depending on you, getting drunk shows something.

(I would say, either in the Wisdom area or--were I not the primary advocate of "we shouldn't apply true moral standards to OotS gods because they're all obvious scum by the standards applied to mortals like Roy"--in the Good/Evil alignment axis area.)

[woweedd]

Logically, if you're continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos with quadrillions of lives depending on you, getting drunk shows something.

(I would say, either in the Wisdom area or--were I not the primary advocate of "we shouldn't apply true moral standards to OotS gods because they're all obvious scum by the standards applied to mortals like Roy"--in the Good/Evil alignment axis area.)

In fairness, if we’re to Thor’s drunkenness during the bet placement...Well, that would have happened fairly shortly after the death of whatever world preceded the OOTS one. Point being, after having millions of beings die, some of whom were probably literally calling your name as they did so...I don’t begrudge needing a drink after that.

[Fyraltari]

Logically, if you're continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos with quadrillions of lives depending on you, getting drunk shows something.

The LG gods are the ones who operate the universe? Doesn’t that give them a huge edge on the other gods? Or does it mean they don’t have time to mess with them?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Logically, if you're continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos with quadrillions of lives depending on you, getting drunk shows something.

But they are not continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos. In the interorbis periods, they sit around waiting for the Snarl to calm down and then they can get back to creating the jail. Being drunk when you have nothing else to do doesn't seem to be dereliction of duty.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

The LG gods are the ones who operate the universe? Doesn’t that give them a huge edge on the other gods? Or does it mean they don’t have time to mess with them?

Thor was observably able to catastrophically affect the afterlife structure of dwarves by saying "sure, whatever" to a bet when he was drunk. Whatever power any other god does or does not have, it remains that, from the perspective that mortals actually matter (this bit is to address Grey Wolf), yes, I have no trouble at all saying he shows horrifying irresponsibility getting drunk.

Which, again, leads to the conclusion that none of the gods really care about mortals except as chesspieces (Thor's handwringing about remembering all his worshipers aside) and thus they are all scum no matter what alignment is listed in their stat block.

(To be clear, "continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos" was a reference to the "do not operate heavy machinery while on this" disclaimer found on some medicines. The point is that he regularly gets out-of-control drunk while having the power to drastically affect lots of people's lives, not that actual gears are involved.)

[Fyraltari]

...This is uncharacteristically obtuse. Thor was observably able to catastrophically affect the afterlife structure of dwarves by saying "sure, whatever" to a bet when he was drunk. Whatever power any other god does or does not have, it remains that, from the perspective that mortals actually matter (this bit is to address Grey Wolf), yes, I have no trouble at all saying he shows horrifying irresponsibility getting drunk.

Which, again, leads to the conclusion that none of the gods really care about mortals except as chesspieces (Thor's handwringing about remembering all his worshipers aside) and thus they are all scum no matter what alignment is listed in their stat block.

(To be clear, "continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos" was a reference to the "do not operate heavy machinery while on this" disclaimer found on some medicines. The point is that he regularly gets out-of-control drunk while having the power to drastically affect lots of people's lives, not that actual gears are involved.)

When I ask why a LG god wouldn't do what Thor did, I expect the answer to be about the difference between LG, NG and CG gods, Kish. Don't call me obtuse for not divining that you were not answering the question you quoted.

[woweedd]

Thor was observably able to catastrophically affect the afterlife structure of dwarves by saying "sure, whatever" to a bet when he was drunk. Whatever power any other god does or does not have, it remains that, from the perspective that mortals actually matter (this bit is to address Grey Wolf), yes, I have no trouble at all saying he shows horrifying irresponsibility getting drunk.

Which, again, leads to the conclusion that none of the gods really care about mortals except as chesspieces (Thor's handwringing about remembering all his worshipers aside) and thus they are all scum no matter what alignment is listed in their stat block.

(To be clear, "continuously operating the heavy machinery of the cosmos" was a reference to the "do not operate heavy machinery while on this" disclaimer found on some medicines. The point is that he regularly gets out-of-control drunk while having the power to drastically affect lots of people's lives, not that actual gears are involved.)

In fairness, i'd imagine half the reason he's drunk is BECAUSE he cares about mortals. If I just watched a world die in front of me, i'd need a drink too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thor was observably able to catastrophically affect the afterlife structure of dwarves by saying "sure, whatever" to a bet when he was drunk. Whatever power any other god does or does not have, it remains that, from the perspective that mortals actually matter (this bit is to address Grey Wolf), yes, I have no trouble at all saying he shows horrifying irresponsibility getting drunk.

No creature can operate at 100% attention 100% of the time. Thor being blindsided by Loki's machinations with a third party during a downtime is not "horrifying irresponsib[le]", it is victim-blaming.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

No creature can operate at 100% attention 100% of the time.

"Moments like this, I'm a little jealous of your mortal limitations. I can count them. I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me."

It's also a bit disingenuous to call Thor a "victim." He hasn't actually been harmed by Loki's machinations, while Hel and the dwarves both have, in different ways and to different degrees. If anything, Thor has come out ahead of where he was when he started.

[Emanick]

"Moments like this, I'm a little jealous of your mortal limitations. I can count them. I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me."

The fact that Thor lacks many of our limitations does not mean that he lacks all of them. It's unclear to me whether he could have reasonably foreseen that getting drunk in what was presumably "downtime" could have been dangerous to anyone.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Moments like this, I'm a little jealous of your mortal limitations. I can count them. I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me."

Good memory doesn't mean, imply or is even vaguely connected, to the ability to be 100% on focus 100% of the time. In fact, the pain clearly distracts Thor. That he can feel emotions means he cannot be the kind of automaton Kish's logic requires.

It's also a bit disingenuous to call Thor a "victim." He hasn't actually been harmed by Loki's machinations, while Hel and the dwarves both have, in different ways and to different degrees. If anything, Thor has come out ahead of where he was when he started.

It sounds to me like he does feel pain for those he can't save from Hel. So yes, he is a victim. That others are even more victims doesn't somehow mean he isn't.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

"Moments like this, I'm a little jealous of your mortal limitations. I can count them. I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me."

It's also a bit disingenuous to call Thor a "victim." He hasn't actually been harmed by Loki's machinations, while Hel and the dwarves both have, in different ways and to different degrees. If anything, Thor has come out ahead of where he was when he started.

He's the one who had to busy himself crafting the Dwarven society, not to mention arguing on their behalf against Hel, knowing that every failure means the torment of those worshippers. All because of a bet he never technically agreed to. Sounds pretty bad to me.

The fact that Thor lacks many of our limitations does not mean that he lacks all of them. It's unclear to me whether he could have reasonably foreseen that getting drunk in what was presumably "downtime" could have been dangerous to anyone.

I mean, one could argue that getting drunk whilst anywhere within the vicinity of Loki is a bad idea, but, honestly, the BEST idea would be for the gods to have some restrictions on verbal contracts, particularly ones formed with the signaotry was in an...alternated state of mind. But that was never going to happen, given that 1/3rd the Gods find "fairness" actively repellent, and another third are indifferent.

[zimmerwald1915]

Good memory doesn't mean, imply or is even vaguely connected, to the ability to be 100% on focus 100% of the time.

The scene is there to show that Thor's awareness is not hampered by "mortal limitations." Mortal limitations include the inability to be 100 per cent focused 100 per cent of the time.

It sounds to me like he does feel pain for those he can't save from Hel. So yes, he is a victim.

That is an obvious stretch. Feeling sympathy does not make one a victim. A victim suffers some kind of harm.

[woweedd]

The scene is there to show that Thor's awareness is not hampered by "mortal limitations." Mortal limitations include the inability to be 100 per cent focused 100 per cent of the time.


That is an obvious stretch. Feeling sympathy does not make one a victim. A victim suffers some kind of harm.

Thor clearly is capable of impaired judgement whilst drunk, which is the scenario under discussion. He agreed to a verbal contract whilst in an alternated state of mind. The enforcement of such a contract is contrary to any sane rulesetto begin with, but them's the break. The question is: KNOWING that a failure on his part COULD lead to innumberal suffering to others, even if it's a low chance, does that make Thor either callous, or incompetent?