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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    But they are already dead and their souls have already been sorted by the Gods.

    Thor, yes, is being Good. Chaotic Good. A Neutral Good would only upset the Deal in order to help Good souls, it wouldn't be worth for him or her to take a stance in the Law-Chaos axis for anything less.
    No they have not. They have been sorted unfairly. People are in peril, save them. Any Good person would do that. The question is how: All other things being equal, LG goes for the Lawful option, CG goes for the Chaotic method, and NG goes for whichever method will accomplish the most Good the most effectively. A NG person follows only Good: If a law is Good, they follow it. If a law is bad, they break it. They’ll do Good by Lawful OR Chaotic, whichever suits the situation.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Respect for the dignity of sentient creatures as a general principle is pretty firmly good, and that would allow any good alignment to free at least all neutral souls from Hel, probably even evil too.
    Neutral, maybe. Freeing Neutral souls from an Evil plane for them to go to a Neutral one might be seen as a service for the greater good. Evils, not, that is just taking a stance in the Law-Chaos axis to allow freeloaders switch evil plane.

    It would be different if the act of freeing the souls would give them a chance for redemption. But it does not. Their lot is already set.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    What do you think Neutral is for? And, yes, I know the point you're trying to make, and i'm heading it off, thank you very much.
    I'm actually not entirely clear on what it's for, since it seems to come up very rarely in these arguments. But something that both a something-Good and presumably Chaotic Evil deity are doing for the same reason (that is to say, save the world from ending and an unstable despot from taking over) seems like a decent candidate for the label. That they're using obstructive bureaucracy to do it is because it's the best tool they have at the moment, not because of morality.

    Granted, I'm really not sure what the difference is between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, so it's difficult to decide which of those Thor is.
    Last edited by Morty; 2019-07-11 at 07:10 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I'm actually not entirely clear on what it's for, since it seems to come up very rarely in these arguments. But something that both a something-Good and presumably Chaotic Evil deity are doing for the same reason (that is to say, save the world from ending and an unstable despot from taking over) seems like a decent candidate for the label.

    Granted, I'm really not sure what the difference is between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, so it's difficult to decide which of those Thor is.
    Neutral is often difficult to pin down since the only way to reliably define Neutral in either axis would be to say that Good, Evil, Lawful and Chaotic are all reserved for extremists. In which case Neutral would immediately hold the majority of people.

    And of course there's the issue that the alignment system just isn't perfect and you can't easily put anyone inside a block of defined characteristics.

    Even the afterlives acknowledge this issue since they made afterlives for people who sit between Neutral and something else. For example the Beastlands, which is the afterlife for people who sit between Chaotic Good and Neutral Good.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    No they have not. They have been sorted unfairly.
    Unfairly? According to what definition of "Fair"? There was a Pact written before the creation of the world. The souls gone to Hel have been sorted to that domain Lawfuly.

    A CG would care for all souls, just to promote Chaos over Law. But a NG would only care for the Good ones, as NG doesn't promotes Chaos over Law, only Good over Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    All other things being equal, LG goes for the Lawful option, CG goes for the Chaotic method, and NG goes for whichever method will accomplish the most Good the most effectively.
    See, that's the reason why people don't see any difference betwen NG and CG. All I am attempting to do in this thread is give a reason for a NG alignment to exist at all.

    And that reason is:
    - NG will promote Good in spite of Law or Chaos.
    - NG will not take a stance in a Law-Chaos issue if there is no Good involved.

    And there is no Good involved in the decission to which Evil plane send an Evil soul to. There is a Law-Chaos one, though. A LG would say "the soul belong to Hel, according to Law ". A CG would say "the soul belong to Abyss, just to flip the finger at Law". The NG would say "I do not bother" and thus not move.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-07-11 at 07:23 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Unfairly? According to what definition of "Fair"? There was a Pact written before the creation of the world. The souls gone to Hel have been sorted to that domain Lawfuly.

    A CG would care for all souls, just to promote Chaos over Law. But a NG would only care for the Good ones, as NG doesn't promotes Chaos over Law, only Good over Evil.



    See, that's the reason why people don't see any difference betwen NG and CG. All I am attempting to do in this thread is give a reason for a NG alignment to exist at all.

    And that reason is:
    - NG will promote Good in spite of Law or Chaos.
    - NG will not take a stance in a Law-Chaos issue if there is no Good involved.

    And there is no Good involved in the decission to which Evil plane send an Evil soul to. There is a Law-Chaos one, though. A LG would say "the soul belong to Hel, according to Law ". A CG would say "the soul belong to Abyss, just to flip the finger at Law". The NG would say "I do not bother" and thus not move.
    A Lawful God could also argue that the Bet is making a mess of the sorting system for souls by taking a good portion of souls out of the system through some arbitrary ruling between two/three gods, and getting as many souls away from Hel is the Lawful thing to do by putting those souls back into the official sorting system everybody else seems to be using.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Unfairly? According to what definition of "Fair"? There was a Pact written before the creation of the world. The souls gone to Hel have been sorted to that domain Lawfuly.

    A CG would care for all souls, just to promote Chaos over Law. But a NG would only care for the Good ones, as NG doesn't promotes Chaos over Law, only Good over Evil.



    See, that's the reason why people don't see any difference betwen NG and CG. All I am attempting to do in this thread is give a reason for a NG alignment to exist at all.

    And that reason is:
    - NG will promote Good in spite of Law or Chaos.
    - NG will not take a stance in a Law-Chaos issue if there is no Good involved.

    And there is no Good involved in the decission to which Evil plane send an Evil soul to. There is a Law-Chaos one, though. A LG would say "the soul belong to Hel, according to Law ". A CG would say "the soul belong to Abyss, just to flip the finger at Law". The NG would say "I do not bother" and thus not move.
    No, a GOOD person cares for all souls. No one deserves to be condemned to Hel for dying of pneumonia, and a LG person wouldn’t approve of it. They’d just go about solving it differently.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    No, a GOOD person cares for all souls.
    Cares for all the living to live a good life and have their souls go to a Good Afterlife. But those are already dead. And the evil ones are going to evil planes. Why would a Good Deity care about what particular Evil plane an evil soul goes for torture? Other than Law-Chaos reasons, for which a Neutral holds no concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    No one deserves to be condemned to Hel for dying of pneumonia and a LG person wouldn’t approve of it.
    He would if the damned one were Evil, because the soul ended up were it deserved, and according to the Laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    They’d just go about solving it differently.
    Yes, he would solve it in differently. For example, building up an ever tighter dwarven society to ensure no one dies "dishonorably", instead of having to spit in the letter and the spirit of the Laws to save them at the last minute.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-07-11 at 08:07 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Cares for all the living to live a good life and have their souls go to a Good Afterlife. But those are already dead. And the evil ones are going to evil planes. Why would a Good Deity care about what particular Evil plane an evil soul goes for torture? Other than Law-Chaos reasons, for which a Neutral holds no concern.
    Yeah but in order to know which one are evil they'd need to have these souls reviewed, don't you think, like in some kind of interview to determine which afterlife suits them?
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah but in order to know which one are evil they'd need to have these souls reviewed, don't you think, like in some kind of interview to determine which afterlife suits them?
    Which is why a LG deity would have insisted on reviewing every single soul instead of accepting a general pardon, like Thor accepted. Bonus points as it would have better seved the purpose of keeping Hel distracted. He doesn't saves as many good souls, but keeps Hel busy and keeps respect for Law enforced. A fine compromise between Law and Greater Good.

    A NG would have accepted general pardon for the Good Souls, but would have insisted on reviewing the Neutrals and most definitelly the Evil ones, as it would have served the Greater Good (freeing good souls, keeping Hel distracted) and also would have been a fine compromise between Law and Chaos.

    But Thor is CG so he takes on the chance of fliping the finger on the Deal even if it means he cannot keep Hel distracted for long enough, relying instead on his CE brother to get the job done.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-07-11 at 08:39 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Which is why a LG deity would have insisted on reviewing every single soul instead of accepting a general pardon, like Thor accepted. Bonus points as it would have better seved the purpose of keeping Hel distracted.A compromise between Law and Greater Good.

    A NG would have accepted general pardon for the Good Souls, but would have insisted on reviewing the Neutrals and most definitelly the Evil ones, as it would have served the Greater Good (freeing good souls, keeping Hel distracted) and also would have been a fine compromise between Law and Chaos.

    But Thor is CG so he takes on the chance of fliping the finger on the Deal even if it means he cannot keep Hel distracted for long enough, and relying on his CE brother to get the job done.
    But they're not getting a pardon, they're getting the review! Dying with honour only means they get the usual deal: each of these souls will be be judged and sent where it belongs.
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    There's also the fact that Good people generally tend to do nice things for everyone, not just other Good people. It's all well and good to stick your neck out for the heroes and saints, but it's even better to not be picky and stick your neck out for everyone, not just the people you like. Besides, at this point, they're all dead; their ability to do any further Good or Evil is sharply limited to whatever they say to whoever's in earshot. There's no real danger associated with saving someone who's Evil, only the risk of upsetting someone's sensibilities about what people deserve.

    Thankfully, Thor's Chaotic Good, and apparently of the firm belief that "Words aren't as important as people." He doesn't care that some of these dwarves "deserve" to rot in Helheim forever. They're people, and every last one of them needs a fair shot at the afterlife, and one way or another, Thor's gonna make sure they get it.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    I'm still blind to the relation between changing the place of eternal torture of an Evil soul and "sticking your neck for someone".
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-07-11 at 10:22 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    I'm still blind to the relation between changing the place of eternal torture of an Evil soul and "sticking your neck for someone".
    Thor does not know which souls are Good and which ones are Evil. The souls who went to Hel were never reviewed, like Roy was, because their destination got diverted. Thus, their alignment was never determined. Thus, he saves all of them, so they may go on to whatever afterlife they would normally face. He does not have the ability to ONLY save the Good/Neutral ones, because their Alignment was never found. And, in my opion, any Good being would agree that eveyr creature at least deserves the opportunity to get a Good afterlife, rather then being condemned solely for the method of death.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    Besides, at this point, they're all dead; their ability to do any further Good or Evil is sharply limited to whatever they say to whoever's in earshot. There's no real danger associated with saving someone who's Evil, only the risk of upsetting someone's sensibilities about what people deserve.
    Not entirely true. Each soul that lands in one of the evil planes will end up empowering evil on a cosmic scale, even if their individual contribution is a tiny drop in an ocean. Further, new devils and demons need to come from somewhere and (to my knowledge) in the default cosmology of DND they come from souls who have eventually been tortured so long they lose their original sense of self and become a lemure, which can then climb the fiendish hierarchy.

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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Not entirely true. Each soul that lands in one of the evil planes will end up empowering evil on a cosmic scale, even if their individual contribution is a tiny drop in an ocean. Further, new devils and demons need to come from somewhere and (to my knowledge) in the default cosmology of DND they come from souls who have eventually been tortured so long they lose their original sense of self and become a lemure, which can then climb the fiendish hierarchy.
    That's about equivalent to them empowering Hel, cosmically speaking, isn't it?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-07-11 at 04:55 PM.
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Thor does not know which souls are Good and which ones are Evil.
    Last time I checked, "Detect Evil" was a 1st Level Clerical Spell in 3.5.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-07-11 at 05:01 PM.

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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Last time I checked, "Detect Evil" was a 1st Level Clerical Spell in 3.5.
    Thor's not a Cleric now, is he?
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Last time I checked, "Detect Evil" was a 1st Level Clerical Spell in 3.5.
    Roy would Detect as Lawful Good, but he could have easily have been sorted into True Neutral or Neutral Good had his Deva been less forgiving. The review, presumably, exists for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Not entirely true. Each soul that lands in one of the evil planes will end up empowering evil on a cosmic scale, even if their individual contribution is a tiny drop in an ocean. Further, new devils and demons need to come from somewhere and (to my knowledge) in the default cosmology of DND they come from souls who have eventually been tortured so long they lose their original sense of self and become a lemure, which can then climb the fiendish hierarchy.
    Oh, trust me, my desire to save people from eternal torment they may or maynot deserve has NOTHING to do with D&D metaphysics. To use the quote any Good creature would do well to live by, "I would rather ten guilty men go free then one innocent man be punished". Which is actually even more applicable here, because they're not going free: They're getting reviewed, as would be normal, had they not had the unfortunate luck to be born Dwarven. Even a Lawful creature should be able to recognize that such a Law is unjust, and should be abolished. Part of being Lawful GOOD is being able to recognize Laws that serve Evil.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-07-11 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Last time I checked, "Detect Evil" was a 1st Level Clerical Spell in 3.5.
    I'm going to assume that the review system they have to determine your rightful afterlife exists for a reason and isn't completely invalidated by a single spell.

    Like those police guys said, divination magic isn't totally reliable.

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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    I'm going to assume that the review system they have to determine your rightful afterlife exists for a reason and isn't completely invalidated by a single spell.
    Both Thor and Loki carried a lot of documentation about each soul, so I bet they have done the research anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Thor's not a Cleric now, is he?
    From Deities & Demigods, IIRC, a God can cast any spell he can grant to his clerics. Possibly at will and as many times as he/she wants. I'd have to check.

    EDIT: Ok, they need a level of a divine casting class, and they burn spell slots like a cleric spontaneously converting their spells to Cure/Inflict spells.

    So if Thor had no divine casting class in him, he couldn't cast all the spells he could grant.
    Last edited by The MunchKING; 2019-07-11 at 06:50 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Both Thor and Loki carried a lot of documentation about each soul, so I bet they have done the research anyway.
    But they explicitly didn't go through the review process. And, even if they were Evi, they deserve a chance to verify it. GOds, after all,a re no embodiments of Law and Good.

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    The documentation may just be a prop to help communicate "yes I do in fact seriously intend to stand here and talk about this at length," given the twin facts that 1) Thor remembers every person who's ever worshipped him, and 2) Thor and Loki aren't doing legitimate bureaucracy, they're running a con.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    From Deities & Demigods, IIRC, a God can cast any spell he can grant to his clerics. Possibly at will and as many times as he/she wants. I'd have to check.

    EDIT: Ok, they need a level of a divine casting class, and they burn spell slots like a cleric spontaneously converting their spells to Cure/Inflict spells.

    So if Thor had no divine casting class in him, he couldn't cast all the spells he could grant.
    If Deities and Demigods reflects OOTS Thor, something which is not entirely true, then he can not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    If Deities and Demigods reflects OOTS Thor, something which is not entirely true, then he can not.
    *shrug* Do you know Thor's class levels? Maybe he's a 20th level Cleric/20th Level Favored Soul (Dad). We can't really know unless Rich gives a break down.
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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    *shrug* Do you know Thor's class levels? Maybe he's a 20th level Cleric/20th Level Favored Soul (Dad). We can't really know unless Rich gives a break down.
    Again, assuming we're using his Deities and Demigods stats, he's a Barbarian 20/Ranger 20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Again, assuming we're using his Deities and Demigods stats, he's a Barbarian 20/Ranger 20.
    Oh... I should have looked that up. Fair play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Both Thor and Loki carried a lot of documentation about each soul, so I bet they have done the research anyway.
    Maybe they only researched the moment of death since the Bet makes everything else irrelevant. Or maybe individual gods are not qualified to make those calls and the review system is something done by experts.

    That said I do have to point out that we've reached the point in the discussion where both sides are more addressing semantics and details rather than the actual point. That's usually a sign that we're not going to get anywhere.

    So to summarize things, we have one camp saying that a Good god would try to pull all dwarven souls away from Hell so they can all be sent to the correct afterlife even if it's an Evil afterlife, and we've got a camp saying that a Good god would want to save the Good and Neutral dwarves but wouldn't find the Evil dwarven souls important since either way they'll be stuck in an Evil afterlife. Given that there's many different ways to be a Good person I say both camps are valid perspectives and it's a matter of what you personally prefer.

    EDIT: as for which perspective is more valid from a Chaotic point of view, that's kind of muddied by the fact that there's many different reasons why Thor could prefer one over the other. In a vacuum, with no other motives present, I'd agree that not caring which Evil afterlife and Evil soul is stuck in is more Chaotic than finding it important everyone gets put through the organized judgement system. Of course for it to qualify as a Chaotic Good perspective you'd have to be absolutely sure that it's an Evil soul you're leaving to its fate and we don't know for sure whether Thor knows so beyond that point we're left to speculate unless Rich enlightens us on whether Thor knows for a fact which alignment each soul has.
    Last edited by Worldsong; 2019-07-12 at 01:32 AM.

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    Default Re: What good alignment is Thor?

    Can't a God without cleric class levels still cast the spells he can grant at a caster level equal to his divine rank?

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